One of the most common statements made by Evangelicals is this: The Bible Says . . . Evangelicals believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God, meant to be read and interpreted literally. It means what it says and says what it means. If these claims are true, why do Evangelicals have such varied beliefs, even on the basics such as salvation, baptism, membership, and communion? How do we determine which sect is right? If the destiny of our eternal soul rests on us believing the right things, shouldn’t Christians speak with one mind on the core doctrines of Christianity?
The confusion of beliefs is a sign that Christianity is a human construct. The Bible doesn’t say anything. It is a book of words that must be read, interpreted, and explained. When I say, “The Bible Says . . .” it should be understood that I’m speaking from my past theological training, experiences, and interpretations. In other words, the Bible says what Bruce says it does. This is true for EVERY Christian. If there’s one thing I have learned about the Bible, it is this: It can be used to prove almost anything. Put a Calvinist, Arminian, Campbellite, Independent Baptist, Apostolic, Charismatic, Pentecostal, and Episcopalian in a room and ask them fifty theological questions. What will you get? Countless interpretations and explanations, each believing they are right. They all can’t be right, so how do we determine which sect/church preaches the True Christianity?
Sadly, many Evangelicals believe that their understanding of the Bible = God says. How can they possibly know this? They will authoritatively claim that the words of the Bible are God’s words, and when they speak the words of the Good Book, they are speaking God’s words. That’s why I have had countless Christians tell me when I object to something they said, “God said it, I didn’t.” Oh, the arrogance behind such a claim. I know of no way that someone can infallibly know that what they are reading or saying is the words of God. Humans wrote the Bible, and for 2,000 years now, Christians have been interpreting and reinterpreting the Bible. Every generation of believers shapes, molds, and interprets the Bible based on their personal opinions, beliefs, and worldviews. Even with intractable sects such as the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement, beliefs and practices change over time. How they define “old-fashioned” is very different today from what it was sixty years ago. As an IFB teen in the 1960s and 1970s, my pastors declared that “Godly” men didn’t have facial hair or long hair. Today, it is common to see IFB men with beards and long hair. The same goes for dress standards. Women wearing pants was verboten years ago. Today, it is not uncommon to see Baptist women wearing slacks.
Change is inevitable, even among groups who think that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. A few years back, my partner’s IFB uncle, Jim Dennis, died after pastoring the Newark Baptist Temple for fifty years. Polly’s parents attended the church for decades. Polly’s mom told me that she was proud of the fact that Jim believed the same things he did when he died as he did when he was a young preacher. In her mind, Jim was a pillar of sound doctrine and practice; a man who was steadfast in his beliefs and behavior. This, of course. was patently untrue. I can point to numerous beliefs and practices that Jim changed his mind about over the years.
I would argue that changing our beliefs is essential to personal growth. If my life story is anything, it is a testimony to the power and importance of change. As a Christian, my beliefs changed a lot. When I came to a new or different understanding of the Bible, I was unafraid to share it. This, of course, led to me being called a liberal or an apostate. All I knew to do was to honestly align my life with my changed beliefs. And I don’t live differently today. How about you? Have your beliefs and practices changed over the years? Do you have Christian friends who pride themselves on not changing their beliefs? Please share your experiences in the comment section.
Let me conclude this post with a short video by Dr. Dan McClellan on the subject, “No, the Bible Doesn’t Say So.”
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. (1 Corinthians 14:33)
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! (Psalm 133:1)
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Ephesians 4:3-4)
These verses clearly teach that God expects his body (the church) to dwell together in peace and unity. If there is confusion (disorder, instability), God is not its author. In other words, if you see disorder in a church, its members are to blame, not God.
According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit lives inside every believer. He is their teacher and guide. Further, the Bible says that followers of Jesus have the mind of Christ. If these verses are true, what are we to make of all the confusion, disorder, conflict, and instability we see in churches? Sure, I know more than a few Christians who are good examples of what it means to be a follower of Christ. But, I also know more than a few Christians who are nasty, mean, hateful sons of bitches. I’ve watched church business meetings turn into shouting matches, and countless people leave churches in a huff, all because they couldn’t get their way or their preacher believed something they felt was wrong.
As an Evangelical pastor, did I experience peace and contentment? Did the churches I pastored have long periods when peace, harmony, and joy were experienced by most congregants? Sure. On balance, I thoroughly enjoyed being a pastor. Church services were enriching and fulfilling. That said, there were times when the ministry was burdensome due to church turmoil and conflict. Most of the disharmony was needless, the result of selfish people wanting their way. On occasion, meaningful disagreements cropped up, but typically the church conflict I experienced was, to put it bluntly, stupid; little more than childish disagreements over minor points of doctrine or decisions I made.
The last church I pastored was a small Southern Baptist congregation in Clare, Michigan. When I candidated, I warned the church that I had no stomach for church conflict. I had reached a point in my ministry where I just wanted to preach and teach the Bible and help people in need. Six months in, conflict arose. Ugly stuff, to say the least, yet the church was shocked when I resigned. Did I not warn them that I had no interest in dealing with the petty bullshit that plagues most churches.
I don’t expect churches to be perfect. However, I do expect them to practice what they preach. According to one source, there are over 40,000 Christian denominations — each with their own beliefs. How does this square with the Bible claim that there is “One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism?” Simple, Bruce, my church/denomination is right. We represent True Christianity!All those other churches/denominations are false. This, of course, is just another version of No True Scotsman. Besides, if you pay attention to True Christian churches, you will see lots of internecine conflict.
If confusion, disunity, and disagreement are common among followers of Jesus, what should unbelievers think about Christianity? Is Christianity some sort of grand ideal, or is it transformational? It seems, at least to me, that the former is true. And if faith in Christ doesn’t transform lives, what good is it? Is the goal passing a test on doctrinal beliefs and praying the right prayer, or is the objective to love God and love your fellow man? James himself said, Faith without works is dead. Jesus said in Matthew 25 that true belief will be judged by how they treat the least of these in our society.
I am convinced that the central claims of Christianity are false. Since it is unlikely that anything will be forthcoming that will change my mind, I doubt I will ever become a Christian again. That ship has sailed. Currently, I have a low opinion of Christianity — especially Evangelicals. If Christians truly practiced what they preached, I might, at the very least, admire the religion. But as long as tens of millions of American Evangelicals continue to support Donald Trump and his draconian policies that harm undocumented workers, working-class people, and the poor, I see nothing to admire. As long as I hear Christians demean and degrade the “least of these” and support genocide, racism, xenophobia, and bigotry, I want nothing to do with their religion.
All of us should practice what we preach. I admit that all of us fall short and should do better. What bothers me about many Evangelicals is that they see their hatred, genocide, racism, xenophobia, and bigotry as a badge of honor. Consider that people such as Dr. David Tee, Revival Fires, John, and a cast of hundreds think they are good Christians, even though they behave in ways contrary to the teachings of the Bible.
Are you an unbeliever? Does Christian behavior affect how you view Christianity? Please share your thoughts in the comment section.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
David Tee/Derrick Thomas Thiessen is the tall man in the back
Recently, Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, said the following in a post titled, We have Time Today. All grammar, punctuation, and nonsense in the original. My response follows.
Thiessen writes:
We quoted someone in our previous post and it got us thinking about an issue he and another person get so upset about. For some inane reason, our two antagonists have a problem with being called by initials.
The “someone” in this post is my British friend, Ben Berwick. The “another person” is Bruce Gerencser. You, of course, would never know this by reading Thiessen’s post. Evidently, readability and comprehension don’t matter to Thiessen.
I think I can speak for both of us when I say we don’t get “upset” by Derrick Thomas Thiessen’s refusal to use our proper names. It’s annoying and disrespectful, but “upsetting? Not a chance.
The reason why is only known to them and we wonder about it because starting from our freshmen year of college and going past our graduation day, our friends used our first initial to address us. We didn’t take offense at it and demanded they use our full name.
Thiessen spins a whopper when he says he doesn’t know why we don’t appreciate his use of initials in place of our given names. I have explained this to Thiessen several times, as has Ben. Besides, just because he doesn’t mind people calling him by initials, doesn’t mean we have to accept him doing the same with our names. Thiessen knows we want to be addressed by our proper names. He also knows we want him to provide proper attribution when he uses our writing. We can’t make him do either of these things, but his refusal to do so sure says a lot about him and how he treats other people.
In fact, we liked it. The initial was convenient, easy to say and as far as we know, we were the only ones addressed by that initial. Our two antagonists seem to take great offense at being called BG and MM of course, we could have used BB for the latter but we don’t think he would like to be named after children’s ammunition.
I don’t take great offense at Theissen calling me BG. I do, however, think he is being childish and petty. There’s no reason I can think of for not calling me by my proper name — especially after I asked him to do so.
Maybe their anger comes from the fact that it us who reduced their names to initials? We do not know but they seem to disagree with anything we say just because we say it. But why get upset over using a person’s initials?
This is done all the time and as far as we know very few people ever get upset about it. Some people also shorten Jesus Christ to JC and we have not decided if that is insulting or not. Maybe if the initials were used in a derogatory manner it would be considered wrong and insulting but that is another topic for another day.
No, it is NOT done all the time. Show me one website or blog that reduces the names of people mentioned to acronyms. By not using proper names when mentioning people on his blog, he leaves his readers perplexed and uninformed. Who is BG? Who is MM? Thiessen does not explain who these people are. And since he refuses to give proper attribution when he uses our writing, this means the ten people who read his blog can’t check his writing. It is proper and professional to provide attribution for every quotation. There’s no possible justification Thiessen can give for not using our proper names or providing attribution.
Or they may be upset because they suffer from extreme TDS and we do not attack or put down Mr. Trump. Who knows or who cares. Our intent was not to be mean, derogatory, or insulting and it is intent that matters not how people perceive something.
What is TDS? Tiny Dick Syndrome? Typical Derrick Shit? Here’s a good example of what happens when you use acronyms instead of proper names (or nouns?). If you care about readers understanding your writing, there is a proper way to use acronyms. For example, before using the IFB acronym for the first time, I write Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB). That way readers know what I mean when I say IFB. The same goes for the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) or the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches (GARBC). The goal is to provide understanding so there’s no miscommunication on my part.
Thiessen wrongly thinks that “intent” is all that matters. He must have missed the lesson in Bible college that talked about the importance of perception. If Thiessen doesn’t want to be perceived as an asshole, then he should behave appropriately. I deeply care about how people perceive my writing or me as a person. I don’t want to leave readers in the position of having to figure out my intent.
Everything I have written in this post is already known to Thiessen. If he wants to be considered an Asshole for Jesus, it is on him, not me. I will continue to use Thiessen’s real name and provide proper attribution when I respond to one of the endless posts he writes about me or my favorite Meerkat.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, recently sent me a guest post. While I initially agreed to publish his post, I regretted doing so after reading it. After a day of contemplation on the matter, I decided not to make his post available to the readers of this blog. His vitriol towards LGBTQ people in general, and specifically transgender people, was enough for me to pass on publishing his post. You can read the post on Thiessen’s blog, TheologyArcheology: A Site for the Glory of God.
In his initial email to me, Thiessen demanded:
Hello,
I have attached the document to this email, The instructions are the same as before. Do not let your editor or anyone touch the content or make changes. The content has already been through two spell and grammar checks.
It is written the way I want it to read.
DDavidT
I’ve been blogging for seventeen years. Scores of people have sent me guest posts to publish. Not one person has made demands of me as Theissen does with his post. Most people appreciate a professional editor going over their writing. Contrary to what Theissen says, his submission had numerous grammar, punctuation, and word usage errors. And Thiessen knows this. He just published his post on his blog. I used comparison software to compare what Theissen sent me and what he published on his site. Numerous changes were made to the text. So much for the text he sent me not needing an editor.
Since he was unwilling to allow Carolyn, my editor, to edit his post to make sure it meets the publishing standard for this site, I decided not to publish it. Both the content and the quality of the post were sufficient for me to say “no thanks.”
While waiting for me to publish his post, Thiessen said the following on several blog posts:
On another note, BG is asking for people to write guest posts. We figure he is getting sicker and it is harder for him to maintain his writing schedule. We submitted one a few days ago and are still waiting to see if it will be published.
We told him not to let his editor touch the content as we wrote what we wanted in the post. we have checked for several days now to see if it will appear and if it doesn’t,. we will place it here.
BG has often claimed that we do not write like a doctor so we did a post leaning towards an academic style of writing to satisfy his complaint. So we shall see. If he does not want to post it, he should send us an email so we can post it here.
Anyways, if anyone wants to write a comment below, use our initials DT, we are not upset if anyone does.
BG has failed to post our guest post. We wrote it because he made the offer and opened it up to everyone and on any topic. We see that he has made his own posts since we submitted it, so it is not like there is a long line of authors trying to publish something on his website.
We will give it one more day, and if it doesn’t appear, we will post the content here. We do not care where it is posted as long as it gets published. He may not like the concluding remarks, as those do not bode well for him and his LGBTQ friends.
Our initial thought for his delay is that he got very afraid to publish it, but we do not know the real reason.
Author’s note– This is the guest post we sent to BG in response to his offer to publish a guest post by anyone on any topic. We simply got tired of waiting for him to post it. If he eventually does, we may take this one down so there is no duplication.
Thiessen thinks his post is so incendiary that I am “afraid” to publish it. Child, please. When I read this post to my partner and read the line from Theissen that said, “Our initial thought for his delay is that he got very afraid to publish it,” Polly started laughing hysterically — rightly so.
Frankly, I am tired of Theissen refusing to use my name when he mentions me on his site. Why should I post anything of his if he can’t even bother to call me or Ben Berwick by our given names? Instead, he uses the initials BG and MM. Further, he refuses to properly link to our content when he uses it. I always use his proper name and link to his content when mentioning him on this site. That’s what professional, respectful writers do– which Thiessen is neither.
Finally, reader interaction is welcome on this site. I read every comment and try my best to respond, if warranted. Thiessen doesn’t want to participate in this process on this site. Comment on a post of his on this blog, and instead of replying, he turns it into a blog post on his site. And if you try to leave a comment on his blog, Thiessen will likely give it a one-sentence answer or delete it. If a guest writer is unwilling to interact with the fine readers of this blog, why should I bother to publish his writing?
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
In 2007, as a Christian — barely — who was struggling with his faith, I started blogging. For a time, I found the Emergent (or Emerging) Church a welcome respite from Evangelical Christianity, but I eventually found its core beliefs lacking too. A year later, I publicly announced that I was an agnostic, and a few months later, an atheist. I dropped the “agnostic” moniker because I got tired of having to explain repeatedly what the word meant. Currently, I self-identify as an agnostic atheist.
As a Christian blogger, I was repeatedly attacked and harassed by Evangelicals for my “liberal” beliefs — both theologically and politically. Then, as now, Evangelicals took one of two positions about my “faith.”
I never was a Christian.
I am still a Christian, but under the chastisement of God.
In November 2008, I attended church for the last time. Throughout my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism, I have blogged about my experiences and beliefs. Countless Evangelicals have come to this site, determined to set me straight about my beliefs. Thousands of emails, blog comments, and social media messages later, I have noticed certain tactics Evangelicals use to repudiate or evangelize me. Evangelicals are, if anything, predictable. And, to be fair, all of us can be predictable. I know I am, though I generally try to engage people where they are. That said, I’ve become quite adept at sniffing out motivations. I’ve had commenters go out of their way to “hide” their Evangelical beliefs. Often, they will try to suck me in with science or philosophy arguments — which is all the rage on YouTube. Usually, I don’t engage in discussions or debates about the existence of God or the beginning of the universe. I know some readers revel in such subjects, but, for me, I’m not that interested. Not that I lack knowledge sufficient to engage in such discussions. I am confident that I can hold my own. I just don’t find these discussions interesting. Rarely do they lead to satisfying conclusions. So I try to stay focused on Evangelicalism (and the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement) and the teachings of the Bible.
When commenters try to hide their Evangelical beliefs, I’ve become pretty good at cutting through their philosophical bullshit, forcing them to admit that they are not arguing for a generic deity, but the God of the Bible. Once they admit they are Evangelicals who base their beliefs on the teachings of the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Bible, I am ready to have a discussion with them. Sometimes, I will even grant their philosophical beliefs and then ask them how they connect this cosmic deity of theirs to the God of the Bible. Once trapped inside the pages of the Bible, it’s easier to discuss their beliefs.
This brings me to “Dr.” Arv Edgeworth. Edgeworth is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) evangelist from Ohio. Over the past several days, I have received numerous emails from Edgeworth, as has Carolyn, my editor. Edgeworth’s emails had an accusatory, judgmental tone, which is typical coming from IFB preachers. I have directly and pointedly answered Edgeworth’s emails (which you can read in the previous posts in this series). Not because I thought I could make a dent in Edgeworth’s thinking — you don’t argue Fundamentalist Baptists out of their beliefs. I’m content to engage such people, hoping that responses will be beneficial to others — especially lurkers. I have had Evangelical zealots who have engaged me in word-to-word combat return months later, admitting they were wrong or that they treated me poorly. I am always grateful when someone apologizes for their boorish behavior. Sadly, this doesn’t happen very often.
Unfortunately, some Evangelicals use their apologies as a ploy. This has happened often enough that I have a hard time accepting Evangelical apologies as genuine. The first question that comes to my mind is this: Is this a genuine apology? The second question is this: What are their motivations? Take Revival Fires (RF). RF is a terrible example of what it means to be a Christian. He has sent me numerous emails and left scores of comments on this site. He is a nasty, vile son of a bitch; someone who loves posting comments detailing prison rape and scat. Several years ago, I called out his behavior, using Bible verses to show that his behavior was not consistent with the teachings of the Bible. Afterward, I received a nice, respectful email from RF. He wanted to be “friends” with me. My response? Are you fucking kidding me? You shit on my doorstep, piss in my corn flakes, attack and harass my wife and children, and you want me to befriend you? Go fuck yourself. And get some therapy. Soon, RF went back to his putrid ways.
Other Evangelicals have taken this approach with me — mainly Independent Fundamentalist Baptists. I’ve received numerous apologies, only to have the person apologizing return to their hateful ways days or weeks later. As a result of past experiences, I am hesitant to believe people when they suddenly apologize after being so hostile towards me. Is their apology genuine? Time will tell, and I have found that most of them return to their hateful ways. Why? I can’t be certain, but I suspect hatred is part of their religious DNA. The IFB church movement, for example, is built upon a foundation of hate; not just ideas or beliefs, but people and institutions. When a Christian is exposed to this kind of thinking week after week, it is almost impossible for them to change their thinking. Possible, but hard. Typically, lasting change requires leaving the IFB church movement.
I’m sure you are thinking, Bruce, what the hell does this have to do with Arv Edgeworth? I know, I know, I’m a long-winded preacher. 🙂 Yesterday, I received the following email from Edgeworth:
I want to apologize, I have been pretty judgmental in my attitude, and I assumed some things I shouldn’t have. Sorry about that. In spite of our differences, maybe we can reach some common ground.
After this statement, Edgeworth took a conciliatory, friendly approach, attempting to connect with me. He sent me several more emails taking a similar tact. Is Edgeworth being genuine? I have no way of knowing. Time will tell. I certainly accept his apology, but the value of any apology is determined by how a person acts going forward. I don’t expect Edgeworth to agree with me or change his beliefs. What I do expect is that he treats me with respect and lets me tell my story on my own terms. I have had many delightful conversations with Christians over the years; people I had little in common with. It is possible for Evangelicals and atheists to get along. Possible, but not easy. Probable? Not likely, but I feel I should at least try to find common ground with people who hold different beliefs than mine. I’m not a debater. I prefer friendly back-and-forth discussions, say over dinner or a beer at the local pub. Sadly, many Evangelicals (and some atheists) take this approach instead:
This scene from Mars Attacks! — one of my favorite movies — shows how many people approach discussions about religion (and politics). I have no interest in eviscerating Evangelicals, including Edgeworth. I accept his apology, but time will tell whether it is genuine. If he reverts to the IFB norm, it is only a matter of time before I say or write something that will offend his Holy Ghost sensibilities. How will he react? I know how IFB preachers before him have acted, but maybe, just maybe, he will be an exception to the rule.
The ball is in Arv’s court. Will he see the ball? I don’t know, since he has repeatedly told me that he doesn’t plan to read this blog. That’s on him. I am more than willing to engage him in thoughtful discussion. One thing is for sure, Arv will get a lot more exposure as a result of our interaction. 🙂 I just did a Google Search on “Arv Edgeworth.” Three days in, and this site is already the third search result. 🙂 All praise be to Loki.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Occasionally, I receive snail mail from Evangelical Christians, hoping they can evangelize me. My address isn’t hard to find. Let me give it to you so you can send me lots of money:
Bruce Gerencser PO Box 183 Ney, Ohio 43549
🙂 On a more serious note, today, I received a letter from an Evangelical Christian who reads this blog. Gotta love his choice in reading material, right? Here’s what he (or she) had to say (slightly edited for readability):
Dear Bruce,
Want to let you know that Christ loves you more than you know. He does NOT want you to be separated from him in Hell. It is no Christian’s place or job to say whether you were saved or not (David Tee, unreadable name, Revival Fires, John, David, or whoever). See Timothy 2:13 [if we are faithless, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself]. I hope you were. If so, you can return to him, and he is waiting for you to do so. If not, don’t reject the greatest gift! The greatest love from the greatest man to ever live — Jesus Christ.
Enclosed is a tract called Back from the Dead? I encourage you to read it. Also www.chick.com. NO FEAR and the Empty Tomb are great to look at, too.
Sadly, someone can read my writing and still not understand my story. This reader thinks that all it will take to win me back to Jesus is for me to read a tract. Really? This approach may work with people uninitiated in Evangelicalism, but that’s not me. I’m not low-hanging fruit that can be easily picked with cheap, shallow Evangelical propaganda. The same goes for sending me lists of Bible verses. “OMG! I didn’t know the Bible said that,” says Bruce NEVER. I’m sure this reader meant well, but he might want to rethink his approach to former Christians — especially college-trained preachers. I know he thinks the Bible is a magical book; that its words can overcome reason, skepticism, and common sense. It’s not. It’s just a book of words written by men.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
“Revival Fires” is a self-professed Evangelical Christian who frequents this site, leaving a plethora of hateful, nasty comments. He does the same on social media. Revival Fires has an obsession with prison rape and anal sex. I have repeatedly tried to get him to see that his behavior is not consistent with the teachings of the Bible. By appealing to his divine “authority,” I thought he might see the error of his ways and repent. Sadly, he is incorrigible, and I have finally figured out why.
Revival Fires recently left a response to a comment by my friend Ben Berwick. Calling Ben BirdDick, here’s what he had to say:
There is no such thing as a “good Christian “. No one is good. All are depraved and in need of his grace.
In twenty-two short words, Revival Fires reveals why he behaves like he does. You see, Revival Fires ill-bred behavior is driven by his theology; particularly his warped understanding of Christian salvation and human nature.
A saved person, according to the Bible, is a new creation in Christ. II Corinthians 5:16-17 says:
From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once knew Christ from a human point of view, we no longer know him in that way.So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; look, new things have come into being!
The Bible says a lot about personal holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. In Matthew 5-7, commonly called The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus sets forth the requirements to be a Christian. Not suggestions, requirements. In the Beatitudes, found in Matthew 5:3-12, Jesus said:
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Jesus goes on to say in Matthew 5:13-16:
You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything but is thrown out and trampled under foot. You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. People do not light a lamp and put it under the bushel basket; rather, they put it on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.
These verses strongly suggest that Revival Fires is not a Christian. The Apostle Paul said in Galatians 5:
Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery,idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. And those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another.
Paul contrasts the works of the flesh with the works of the Spirit. He states that the fruit of the Spirit is — singular, present tense. Not fruits — pick and choose — but fruit, singluar. The fruit of the Spirit is not a grand objective. No, dear followers of Jesus, Paul declares that if you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you, these behaviors will be evidenced in your life. Again, these verses make it clear that Revival Fires is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. In other words, he is not a Christian.
Revival Fires ignores these verses, justifying his atrocious behavior by saying the Bible says that no one is good; that all of us are depraved and in need of God’s grace. In other words, God didn’t do shit for him, behavior-wise. He sees himself as a depraved sinner and behaves accordingly. Revival Fires has a warped understanding of the Christian gospel. In his mind, salvation is gained by affirming a set of propositional truths. “Believe these things and you shall live,” Revival Fires thinks. (And to be fair, I have met a lot of Evangelicals who think this way, especially Independent Fundamentalist Baptists.) Revival Fires bastardized gospel is little more than a momentary transaction at the church altar where he prayed the sinner’s prayer and Jesus saved him. Lots of IFB churches preach this corrupt gospel. Have you ever wondered why so many IFB readers think I am still a Christian? This is why. At the age of fifteen, I assented to a set of theological propositions, prayed a prayer, and Jesus gloriously saved me — forever. No matter how I live my life, I am a Christian. I could be a rapist, serial killer, or atheist and still be a Christian. Why? The Bible says nothing can separate the Christian from the love of Christ.
Revival Fires thinks he is saved, and nothing he does can revoke his ticket to Heaven. Awesome, right? Sin all you want, you are still saved. Misuse and abuse people, you are still saved. Break every law in the Bible, you are still saved. Tell me again, why, exactly, Jesus died on the cross and ressurected from the dead?
Of course, this question must be asked: If Christian salvation doesn’t change your life, what good is it?
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
What follows is my response to another email from Independent Fundamentalist Evangelist Arv Edgeworth
Mr. Gerencser,
So nice to hear from you. I don’t read your blog so I won’t be reading your replies to my emails to Carolyn. I read your “Why” section, and all I saw was poor logic on your account, so I have no desire to read any further.
That’s up to you. Remember, you came to this site and then emailed me.
You claim I use poor logic, yet you provide no evidence for your claim. What laws of logic have I violated?
Bruce, you blame God and the “Church” for you neglecting your family. I have known several pastors who built strong ministries, and they had strong family ties, and I saw no evidence they neglected their families in any way. I’m sorry you neglected yours. But that is on YOU, not God.
I don’t blame “God.” He is a myth, so it would be foolish to blame a mythical being for something that happened in my life. I accept full responsibility for the choices I have made throughout my life. Part of accepting responsibility is determining why a certain decision was made. From this perspective, my pastors, professors, and the churches I pastored all played a part in how I neglected my family. I was indoctrinated and conditioned to view the world a certain way. The same goes for how I viewed my calling and the work of the ministry. I can’t be at fault for practicing what I was taught or what was modeled to me by my pastors and peers. I did what I thought was right in the eyes of God. Over time, my thinking changed. How I viewed the ministry in 1976 was very different from the way I viewed it in 1997. Unfortunately, Edgeworth does what many of my critics do: he takes a snapshot of a certain point in my life and applies it to the sum of my life, not allowing for change as I got older and matured.
I was a Creation evangelist for over 20 years, giving over 450 seminars in 27 different states. Sometimes my wife couldn’t go with me because she was our church secretary for 27 years, but she is my best friend, and we are both close to our kids. We will celebrate 60 wonderful years of marriage this week.
Okay? I’m not sure what the point is. We all have a storyline. In my case, I was saved at the age of fifteen and called to preach several weeks later. In the fall of 1976, I enrolled in classes at Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan — an IFB college started in 1954 by Dr. Tom Malone. (Malone, by the way, had an earned doctorate from an accredited state school.) While at Midwestern, I met a beautiful IFB preacher’s daughter. Two years later, we married, and this July we will celebrate forty-seven years of wedded bliss. We are blessed to have six adult children, sixteen grandchildren, and four cats.
My ministerial career of twenty-five years took my partner and me to Evangelical churches (IFB, Southern Baptist, Sovereign Grace Baptist, Christian Union, and Nondenominational) in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. I left the ministry in 2005 and converted from Christianity in 2008. I am now an atheist and a humanist.
You claim you had an intimate relationship with Christ for many years, but now claim He never existed. It can’t be both.
People change their minds. When I was a Christian, I had an intimate relationship with Jesus. I was a sincere follower of Christ. And now I am an atheist. I learned over the years that religious faith is complex; that people, myself included, can hold beliefs that are not true.
I have never said Jesus wasn’t a real person. I am not a mythicist. I think Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic preacher who was executed for his opposition to the Roman government. He was buried in an unknown grave, never to be seen or heard from again. What I reject are the supernatural claims made for Jesus.
You blame God for all bad things in the world, then claim God doesn’t exist. More bad logic?
If God is the sovereign creator of the universe, then, yes, he is responsible for the good and bad that happens in the world. I can make a solid theological argument for this claim; a belief, by the way, I held when I was a pastor.
I can easily defend my past beliefs if challenged. After all, the Bible can be used to prove almost anything.
Like I told Carolyn, you blaming God for everything bad, would be like me seeing a smashed Chevy and no longer believing in General Motors as a great company because they build automobiles that can be smashed by humans. Poor logic.
If God is in control of all things, then, yes, God is responsible for everything, including automobiles.
If Edgeworth wants to discuss or debate this issue, I am game.
You might want to reconsider being an atheist though, if God doesn’t exist then you can’t blame Him for all your failures and the failures of other people. Then the responsibility for you neglecting your family falls only on you. If God doesn’t exist, then you can’t blame Him for creating a world where bad things can happen.
As I have repeatedly stated, I accept responsibility for every decision I have ever made. I have been honest and open about the churches I pastored, detailing both my successes and failures. That said, I refuse to accept blame for things that were not my fault or over which I had no control.
As an atheist and a humanist, I accept and understand that bad things can and do happen, not only to me but to other people. I have had a rough road in life. Life is what it is. All I know to do is to learn from past experiences. I wouldn’t wish my childhood on anyone. Sure, I survived, but not without a hell of a lot of deep wounds and scars. As a 68-year-old man, most of my struggles these days are health-related. I have gastroparesis and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency — both incurable — osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, and degenerative spine disease (that has left me with widespread disc damage in my neck and spine). In August, I had major surgery on my spine. Virtually every moment of my waking hours is dominated by debilitating pain and illness. I should note, before a Christian reader suggests that my health problems are God’s judgment for my unbelief, I started having health problems years before I deconverted. Countless prayers were uttered asking for deliverance or relief, without success.
I won’t be reading your blog that I am sure will be filled with more bad logic, but if you wish to communicate via emails that would be fine. I hope you get things straightened out in your mind so you can put things in proper perspective.
As far as getting straightened out, I am as “straight” as I can be. One hundred percent heterosexual. 🙂
When Edgeworth says “proper perspective” he means seeing things as he does, believing as he does. Remember, certainty breeds arrogance, and there’s nothing more arrogant than expecting and demanding that others believe as you do. That said, I am more than happy to embrace Edgeworth’s beliefs, provided he can give me empirical evidence for his claims. It’s really that simple. I operate on evidence. My goal is to believe as many true things as possible. That’s why I deconverted. The central claims of Christianity no longer made any sense to me. I expand my thinking on this subject in the post titled The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.
We humans mess up sometimes. Blaming a God Who you say doesn’t exist isn’t the answer. Just curious, will you be worshiping the Easter Bunny next Sunday?
I have sufficiently addressed your false claim above. Again, let me be clear, I give blame and credit to whom blame and credit are due. I do, however, worship my wife. Now, there’s a God worthy of worship. 🙂
Unlike Edgeworth, I do not worship inanimate or mythical beings.
Bruce, what you BELIEVE isn’t the REALITY of the way things ACTUALLY are. I know it makes things easier for you in the make-believe world you have built for yourself, which removes a lot of the responsibility for yourself.
Says who? What evidence do you have for this claim other than that you have convinced yourself that your worship and fealty to a mythical being is “reality.” It’s not. I am a materialist. Since God is an immaterial being and you cannot provide empirical evidence for his existence, “God” is not a part of reality (outside of having to live and interact with people who believe God exists and is personally involved in their lives).
Life is actually much harder for humanists. As a Christian, every belief and action was parsed through the teachings of the Bible. What the Bible said was all that mattered. THUS SAITH THE LORD! As a humanist, I have to develop carefully the moral and ethical framework by which I live my life. There are no humanist Ten Commandments, no humanist standard.
If God does exist, you messed up. But guess what, if God doesn’t exist, you still messed up and are still messing up. But now you are also responsible for all the people you are misleading. If you cared about others, instead of just yourself, you would want them to know the REAL TRUTH. Your whole blog or website is based on bad logic and delusion, and is leading people away from God instead of toward Him.
In what way am I “misleading” people? All I know to do is share my story. I don’t try to convert people to atheism. That said, scores of people have told me that I played a part in their deconversion. I don’t preach at people. I don’t comment on Christian websites. Seventeen years ago, I started blogging. My goal then is the same today: to honestly and openly share my story, answer questions people might have about Evangelical Christianity, and to help and encourage people who have deconverted.
If this blog is based on bad logic and delusion, I suggest Edgeworth either deconstruct my story and posts on his website or start a blog to do the same. He makes all sorts of claims about me, yet provides no evidence to support his contentions.
I wish you well. If you were ever IN the body of Christ, you can never be OUT of the body of Christ, that much is sure. You will be in HEAVEN someday, but think of all those who may not be because of your DELUSION, and anger, which should be directed mostly at yourself, not God.
Answered, answered, answered.
If there is a God, according to the IFB gospel, I will go to Heaven when I die. Awesome, right? Thousands of people who read this blog will someday be in Heaven, too. What a party we will have; millions of Atheist Christians praising logic, reason, skepticism, and common sense for their glorious deliverance from the bondage of Evangelical Christianity, complete with rock music, Holy Ghost marijuana, and a free grace bar. And what will Jesus do? He will probably join us. 🙂
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I was intimate with my lover for many, many years.
My wife and children know about the affair. I am so sorry for all the hurt and damage my illicit relationship caused. That my wife and children stood by me all these years is a wonderful testimony to their love for me. I don’t deserve it.
My mistress and I carried on for a long, long time. She would follow me wherever I moved: Ohio, Texas, Michigan. She was always right there for me.
My mistress is a lot older than I am. She is what is commonly called a cougar.
The sex was great. The only problem was I could never satisfy her. The more sex we had, the more she wanted. She was quite the nymphomaniac. I had a suspicion she was having sex with other people (she was bisexual) but it didn’t matter. What WE had was special. She treated me as if I was the ONLY one.
Over the years, we made a lot of promises to each other. We are going to do this or that, go here or go there. But neither I nor my mistress delivered on our promises.
I gave my mistress a lot of money. She deserved it, or so I thought. Yet, no matter how much money I gave her, she always wanted more. She would often tell me “Prove that you love me, Bruce.” So I would give her more money. I began to wonder if she was a prostitute and I was a john. My wife and children suffered because I gave so much money to her. I justified their destitution by telling myself that my affair was what gave me purpose and meaning in life. Without it, I might as well be dead.
I deceived myself for a long time, convinced that what my mistress and I had was real. After all, she made me feel alive. She gave me self-worth. When we were together it seemed as if time stopped and we were transported into the heavens.
One day, I began to have doubts about my affair. The sex was great, but there is more to life than sex. I certainly enjoyed the company of my mistress, and boy, she sure could cook, but I still felt quite empty when I was away from her.
I began to think about all the sacrifices I made for my mistress: all the money I gave her; the loss of a close, intimate relationship with my wife and children. Was it worth it? Since my mistress got the best of me, all my family got was leftovers. By the time I came home to them, I was too tired, too busy, and too broke to give them what they needed and deserved.
A decade or so ago, after much self-judgment and reflection, I ended the affair. I sold all of the mementos of our torrid relationship. I told my mistress that I could no longer be in a relationship with her. She didn’t even get angry, or for that matter, even care. She told me “There are plenty of other people who would love to have me in their lives. Your loss, Bruce.”
So we parted ways,
My wife and I, along with our children, are trying to rebuild our family. The damage done by this affair is incalculable. I can only hope that, with time, the wounds will be healed.
I should warn all of you about my mistress. She is always on the prowl looking for someone new to entice and bed.
Her name?
The Church.
By the way, I thought the above quoted post was some of my finest writing. Others certainly think so.
What follows is my response to his latest email.
Edgeworth replied:
I read it all the way through before, but somehow “her name” and “the Church” with spaces in between didn’t sink in. He had sex with the Church? The sex was great with the Church? Really? A bit misleading don’t you think?
He gave his mistress a lot of money, but complains he never got paid much money from the small churches he pastored, if he got paid at all?
The Church isn’t a building. If Bruce was saved he is part of that church, the body of Christ, that He bled and died for. He can never become not a part of that church. He may choose to not serve Christ but can never not be a part of the church. That relationship is everlasting.
How exactly in his mind did he have sex with “the Church”?
If Bruce neglected his family, that is on him. I have lovingly served my Lord and Savior for over 50 years, but always tried to give my family the attention they needed. But I guess it is easier for Bruce to just blame God for him neglecting his family. Maybe it eases his conscience somehow.
Neglect of his relationship with Christ is far worse.
Evidently, Edgeworth has a hard time recognizing satire — sadly, a common problem with Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) Christians. Their wooden, literalistic way of thinking keeps them from understanding satire (or jokes). Life is too short to go without satire and humor.
I gave a lot of money to the churches I pastored, even when they couldn’t or wouldn’t pay me a living wage, with benefits. (I often worked a full-time secular job while also working at the church full-time.) I pastored churches that ranged in attendance from the 50s to more than 200. Some congregations were dirt poor and couldn’t pay me a living wage. The church I pastored in southeast Ohio grew to over 200 hundred people, yet only exceeded $40,000 income one time. Most years, the church took in less than $30,000. They paid me what they could, and because I put ministry and calling before my pocketbook, I never concerned myself with what I made. In retrospect, I should have. My family suffered because I put Jesus/Church/Christian school/preaching/soulwinning first.
I take full responsibility for the choices I made in the ministry. If I had it to do it all over again, I would do it differently. That said, several of the churches I pastored could have paid me more, but they were content to give me two chickens and a $20 bill. The most I made was $26,000 a year, with the church of 200 members providing a mobile home for my family and me to live in. No insurance, no retirement plan, no benefits. The church could have easily paid me three times what they did but chose not to. Do I blame God? Of course not. The blame rests squarely with the church.
It’s good to know, according to Edgeworth’s profane theology, that I am still a Christian. Once saved, always saved, right? I’m so glad Edgeworth told me the “church is not a building.” OMG! If only I had known that. Sigh. (Why I Use the Word “Sigh.”) According to Edgeworth, I am in a marriage that I can’t get out of, even though my spouse abused and ignored me. No divorce, even if I no longer believe in the existence of the God of the Bible. No divorce, even if I mock, make fun of, and blaspheme God. No divorce, even if I deny that Jesus is the son of God, or that he was born of a virgin, worked countless miracles, died on a Roman cross, resurrected from the dead 48-72 hours later, and later ascended to Heaven, never to be seen again. Any reasonable, logical person would conclude that I am not a Christian. But, Edgeworth’s peculiar theology gets in the way of him exercising rational thinking and common sense.
I don’t blame God for anything. How could I, since he doesn’t exist? The same goes for blaming Satan — another mythical being. I am a big proponent of personal responsibility. Just ask my children and grandchildren. “Grandpa, I can’t find my shoes (wanting me to find them).” They know I will say, “Who had them last?” Personal responsibility training starts young. To the degree that I am culpable, I accept full responsibility. However, I refuse to let churches and individual Christians off the hook for their shitty, unchristian behavior. When people complain about how I have portrayed them in my writing, I tell them, “You should have treated me better.” 🙂 Want to be well thought of? Act accordingly.
I never had “literal” sex with God. Get it in your head, Arv, it’s satire. Now, if you want to know if I ever made love to my partner anywhere on church property — wink, wink, I ain’t telling 🙂 Oh, those were the days!
Edgeworth ended his email with yet another threat of Hell. I wonder if he really thinks this puts the “fear of God” in me. I assure him that I do not fear a nonexistent deity. I am generally not fearful of anything. Well, outside of my wife. She wields a pretty mean Lodge cast-iron skillet. If Polly starts watching The Burning Bed on repeat, then I might fear her. 🙂 If anyone could cause me to fear, it is Evangelical Christians; so-called worshippers of the Prince of Peace who have threatened me with violence — including murder. These so-called Christ followers have also threatened my partner, our six adult children, and our sixteen grandchildren. They have tracked them down on the Internet and sent them hateful, nasty emails.
To Arv I say, if you plan to respond, stop psychoanalyzing me. You aren’t qualified to do so, and I regularly see a therapist who is more than capable of helping me with my mental health.
Do better, Arv, do better. If you want to have a thoughtful conversation with me, I’m game. If your plan is more of the same, don’t bother.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
“Dr.” Arv Edgeworth recently sent me the following comment:
Hi Bruce,
I am interested. Would you be willing to share with me why you left Christianity, and now consider yourself an atheist? I promise not to be judgmental. I honestly would like to see things from your perspective. My wife and I live in Southwest Ohio, and next week will be celebrating our 60th anniversary. I wish you well.
I am an evangelist. In the last 14 years I have spoken in over 300 independent, fundamental Baptist churches in 25 different states. I have spent a great deal of time discussing doctrinal issues with those pastors. I have also discussed standards of dress and conduct with them. I send out a newsletter to about 2100 independent, fundamental, Baptist churches nation-wide.
Edgeworth operates the Truth and Science website — a site devoted to young earth creationism and debunking evolution.
Many years ago, Dr. Arv Edgeworth was asked to head up a Six-Step Problem Solving team for the General Motors Corporation. As part of his training he was taught in the proper use of the Scientific Method. His team had a 100% success rate. His love of science grew. He then began collecting science textbooks, collecting over 150 of them. He also collected, about 80 other books about science. He began to be very burdened over the Creation vs Evolution issue. In January of 1997, God called him into Creation Evangelism.
Dr. Edgeworth has given over 450 seminars on the Creation vs Evolution issue in churches and schools in 27 different states. He now sends newsletters to thousands of scientists, science teachers, pastors, churches, and many others.
In his first email to me, Edgeworth asks me why I left Christianity and why I consider myself an atheist. I find such questions annoying. Even a superficial perusal of this site would direct a person to the page WHY? On this page are numerous articles answering Edgeworth’s questions. Alas, many Evangelicals lack curiosity, as I make clear in a post titled Curiosity, A Missing Evangelical Trait.
Edgeworth promised not to be judgmental if I responded to his email, but as you will see below, he failed to keep his word.
I did not respond to Edgeworth; my editor, Carolyn, did. Carolyn has been my editor for years. When I am not feeling well — and currently in a tough spot physically — Carolyn will answer some of my emails, especially those that can be answered without theological or philosophical responses. Edgeworth asked a question, to which Carolyn, my Internet wife, replied:
Mr. Edgeworth,
I am Bruce’s editor and sometimes-answerer of his emails. Please read all the links on the Why page on Bruce’s blog, The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser, and you will have an understanding of why and how he left Christianity. The short answer is that after he retired, he began to examine all of the tenets of Christianity and how they didn’t fit together and how they contradicted one another, and he reached the point where he no longer believes in the basics of Christianity — the virgin birth, the miracles Jesus supposedly performed, his alleged resurrection, heaven, hell, angels, satan, etc. The more he examined, the more he realized he didn’t believe. He cannot worship a god who would have a hell and a lake of fire where a god tortures certain people for eternity after our relatively short stay on earth.
Carolyn Patrick, editor for Bruce Gerencser
Excellent response. Short and to the point, directing Edgeworth to where he could find fuller explanations for why I converted.
Of course, Edgeworth couldn’t be bothered to do his homework — yet he wants everyone on this site to read his website. He shows no awareness of my background or that I was a college-trained IFB/Evangelical pastor for twenty-five years. There’s nothing in my story that remotely suggests I was a liberal Christian; that I had head knowledge, but had never been born again. Both of these claims are patently false.
The “non-judgmental” Edgeworth is, in fact, judgmental, consigning me to Hell because I don’t believe as he does. He predicts (and knows for sure) that I am headed for Hell and assumes the same about Carolyn.
Here’s what he said:
Hi Carolyn,
Thank you for your reply concerning why Bruce left “Christianity” and became an atheist. The things you told me about Bruce seem to indicate clearly that Bruce may have had a head knowledge about God, and considered himself to be a “Christian,” but has never experienced the new birth. That often happens if someone is in a liberal denomination that does not preach and teach the true gospel. They are “Christians” in name only.
I can predict one thing for sure. Bruce will believe in God, and heaven and hell in the future: one moment after he dies. It is a terrible thing for Bruce that he never experienced true Christianity. How about you Carolyn? Would you like to be 100% sure about your eternity? You can be. You owe it to yourself and to Bruce to at least check it out. I hope you and Bruce have a great eternity. Eternity is a long time to be wrong! Please check this out for yourself. You will be eternally grateful that you did!
Are you telling me that you relied only on my writing to make the decision that Bruce had “head knowledge” but didn’t experience a “new birth”? Are you telling me that you didn’t read the links on the Why page of Bruce’s blog? If so, SHAME ON YOU! Don’t take my word for it, read Bruce’s own words, his own writing. I am fully convinced that Bruce was born again when he was 15 and had a personal relationship with Jesus for more than 25 years. Bruce was not in a liberal denomination but was the pastor of several Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) churches. He preached and taught the true gospel. He would have been a Trump supporter in his Christian days.
I am an agnostic atheist. I have no belief in any god or gods – not yours, not the Catholic god, not the Pentecostal god, not the Episcopalian god, not the Baptist god, not the Methodist god, not the Mormon god . . . . Need I go on? I have no belief in any god. If scientifically valid evidence were presented to me by a god, I might (or might not) believe in her, but as things stand now, I have seen no evidence for the existence of any god, and I therefore have no belief in any god. I am 100% sure about my eternity, and yours too. Yours will be the same as mine and Bruce’s.
Carolyn Patrick, editor for Bruce Gerencser
Edgeworth replied (relevant parts quoted):
Hi Carolyn,
I have finished reading most of the “Why” section on Bruce’s blog. I did skim through a few things, just focusing on the most important. I then compared them with the things you said about yourself. I hope you won’t mind if I try to put a few things into perspective.
…
Your Beliefs and Bruce’s
Bruce refers to himself as an atheist. You refer to yourself as an agnostic atheist. All of this is based on what you choose to believe. The same can be said for the evolutionist. What I don’t see in any of this is a sincere desire to know the TRUTH. Where does REALITY fit into any of this? What about the REALITY of what actually happened in the past, is happening now, or will happen in the future? Does that matter to you?
I have a PASSION for TRUTH! Judging from what you have said: It doesn’t appear that either you or Bruce have any desire to actually KNOW what the TRUTH is. The word “science” means “to know.” It doesn’t mean “to believe.” You and Bruce have every right to choose to believe what you want to. But what about the TRUTH about what actually IS?
The existence of God is based in the REALITY of what actually is. What anyone chooses to believe or not believe has no bearing on the REALITY of what actually is. That is why the Supreme Court ruled that Atheism is a religion. At least they got that one right. Just my personal belief.
For example: You say that my eternity will be the same as both yours and Bruce’s. That isn’t something that you know or can be known is it? You may choose to BELIEVE that, but it will have no effect on the REALITY of what actually IS.
Evolution Can Be Easily Disproven!
I could give you the scientific evidence to prove that. The real facts though seldom result in people changing their mind about what they have chosen to believe. God exists, but He will only prove that to you if you are honestly seeking the TRUTH.
We all fit into one of two categories:
(1) An honest seeker of TRUTH.
(2) A protector of a BELIEF SYSTEM.
What you choose to believe, has no effect on the REALITY of what actually IS. I wish nothing but the best for both of you. The TRUTH really will set you free.
In Search of the TRUTH,
Dr. Arv Edgeworth
Several hours later, Edgeworth wrote:
Hi Carolyn,
I was curious how you could feel so confident Bruce at one time was a born-again Christian unless you had perhaps experienced the same thing yourself. Do you have a story to tell?
Using Bruce’s logic though, if I were to observe a smashed Chevrolet, I would contact General Motors and tell them I could no longer believe in them as a great company because they build automobiles that people can smash. In fact, I am beginning to believe that they no longer exist, or perhaps never did. Same logic?
Also, for a fundamental Baptist preacher to pastor several churches while at the same time, having a mistress on the side, and the probable guilt and shame that he carried with him, but claim that had nothing to do with where he is at today, might lead someone to think he is delusional, at least to himself. But I do not judge him for that, we all fail at times.
By the way, do you know why God gave us the 10 Commandments? To prove to us that we couldn’t keep them, and needed a Savior to die in our place.
But having said all I have, I can guarantee, based on the infallible Word of God, that God still loves both of you, and desires nothing but the very best for your lives. That will never change, because God never changes. He may choose to operate differently at times, but He is unchangeable. He is a God you can trust, no matter how certain experiences may lead you to believe otherwise.
God could have built a bunch of robots that would always do right, but in accordance with His love, justice, mercy, and wisdom, He choose to form the Earth to be inhabited by fallible humans such as you and I.
As the loving father welcomed the prodigal son with open arms, God will do the same for you.
In Christian Love,
Certainty — a foundational belief for IFB Christians — breeds arrogance, and Edgeworth is certainly that. Without getting into a long debate, let me answer several of Edgeworth’s claims.
About my “chosen” beliefs. It is debated whether any of us chooses to believe. For the sake of argument, I will accept Edgeworth’s claim that I chose to be an atheist. I chose to be an atheist based on my careful, painful re-examination of the central claims of Christianity. This was me seeking TRUTH. Edgeworth seems unaware that I am a college-trained pastor, spent twenty-five years in the ministry, preached over 4,000 sermons, and spent over 20,000 hours reading and studying the Bible. It is disingenuous for Edgeworth to claim that I was not a sincere seeker of truth. You are fucking kidding me, right? I have spent more time and effort in understanding the teachings of the Bible than most Christians, including preachers. What, exactly, does Edgeworth think I “missed?” He has no evidence for his claims about my life. He asked for no clarifications and made little to no effort to understand my story. To Edgeworth, I say, the triune God of the Bible said: Answering before listening is both stupid and rude. (Proverbs 18:13) Do better, Edgeworth, do better. I am not your typical atheist. I am not ignorant about Christian theology or church history. I am conversant in all things Christian.
I am baffled as to why Edgeworth brings up evolution. What I believe about the beginning of the universe and how best to explain the natural world has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is a singular claim about the lack of existence of deities. That’s it. I know several Christians who accept evolution as a scientific fact. Thus, one can believe the core doctrines of Christianity and evolution at the same time. To suggest otherwise means that salvation is by “right belief” and not faith.
I am a sincere seeker of truth. Edgeworth can’t accept this fact, of course, because it doesn’t comport with his peculiar claims. That my proverbial peg doesn’t fit in his hole is his problem, not mine. If Edgeworth wants to challenge my beliefs, I’m game. I am, however, not interested in discussions with people who do not respect me enough to accept my story at face value. Edgeworth says he’s a Christian. As a man who respects others, I accept his story at face value. It would be nice if Edgeworth would do the same. I know, I know, Edgeworth is an IFB preacher. Scores of Edgeworths have emailed me and commented on this site. I have generally found IFB preachers to be “Assholes for Jesus.”
In his last email, Edgeworth questioned whether I was a real Christian since I admitted to having an affair! This ludicrous and false statement suggests that Edgeworth did not carefully read the posts on the WHY? page. Had he done so, he would have learned that the post It’s Time to Tell the Truth: I Had an Affair is satirical.
Edgeworth mentions the Ten Commandments and the infallibility of the Bible, as well as arrogantly saying, based on evidence he does not have, nor can he possibly have, “I can guarantee, based on the infallible Word of God, that God still loves both of you, and desires nothing but the very best for your lives.”
How could Edgeworth possibly know that God still loves me and desires nothing but the best for my life? Does he know the mind of God? How does he know I’m not a reprobate or an apostate? I can definitively prove that I am both — gladly so. And as far as the Protestant Bible being (inerrant) and infallible, give me a break. That claim carries no weight and can easily be disproven. Edgeworth is King James Only. I assume he believes the KJV is infallible too, and not just the original manuscripts — which are not extant.
To Edgeworth, I say, if you want to talk about the law of God or the inerrancy/infallibility of the Bible, I’m game. As far as evolution is concerned, I am not a scientist. I have no relevant expertise regarding evolution. Others on this site do, some of whom are trained scientists, so if they want to engage you on matters of science, I am sure they will respond.
Wade in if you dare, Arv, but please know that this site is not a den of “ignorant” atheists or people who, as your friend said, “reject the authority of God in their lives.” For me personally, I think you will find that I can adequately and competently discuss Christian theology with you — especially in its Evangelical and IFB varieties.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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