In the 1980s and 1990s, I pastored Somerset Baptist Church in Mt. Perry, Ohio. I planted the church, and in its heyday it surpassed 200 in attendance. Not far from our church sat Calvary Bible Fellowship — a large Amish-Mennonite community. My partner and I, along with our children, attended Calvary Bible on occasion. We really enjoyed the accapella music.
I befriended some of the church men over the years. I suspect they viewed me as an oddity: Fundamentalist like them, but not quite. Suspicious of most religious sects, the folks at Calvary Bible were not quick to paint someone a Christian.
Recently, I received a short email from an Amish-Mennonite man named John. John remembers my preaching and witness for Christ, but doesn’t remember personally talking with me much. He’s older than me, so I will attribute his faulty memory to age. 🙂 John and I had several discussions over the years, including at his business down the road from the church.
John wrote:
A, born again believer has a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. He had repented of his sins, recognizing that he needs a savior, and an asked Jesus to come into his life the Holy Spirit to guide him, and even a true Christian enjoys his relationship with the Lord he has assurance of salvation and he would not leave that relationship and become an atheist. I’m sorry to say but Bruce I still love you and I know that the Lord does too and he’s calling you to come back to him and race receive a relationship with him and obtain eternal life at the end. I was a minister at Calvary Bible Fellowship for early 20 years. I still remember you were quite diligent and in talking to people about the Lord and as I remember you challenge the Catholics, but I don’t remember personally talking with you very much that I can remember.
For the purpose of this post, I want readers to ignore John’s sermons. Nothing new there; nothing I haven’t heard countless times before — albeit from an Arminian perspective. I want to focus on John’s description of me:
I still remember you were quite diligent and in talking to people about the Lord and as I remember you challenge the Catholics.
Think of how many zealots and apologists have attacked my character, saying I was a fraud, a liar, a deceiver Several preachers have spread far and wide the lie that I never was a pastor. My story is a legend, not lived history. John, who knew me better than ANY of my critics, saw me differently. John and I crossed paths many times over the years. He and his family lived two miles down the road from our church and “spacious” 12’x60 foot Hillbilly Mansion on wheels. We saw each other here and there, usually trading pleasantries, and, on occasion, talking about the decline of society, the Bible, and Christian education (we used books from Mennonite publisher, Rod & Staff, in our private Christian school). I found John to be a good man; someone I enjoyed talking to, on occasion. He certainly took his faith seriously.
I snickered a bit when John mentioned me challenging Catholics. Yeah, there was a time when I had no contact with Catholics other than trying to evangelize them. John likely remembers me and a few men from the church street preaching in front of the Catholic church in Somerset as they held their annual Garden Party (which featured beer and gambling). This was how the church raised funds to operate for the year. Years later, after actual exposure to Catholics, I moderated my views on Catholics, grudgingly admitting they were Christians, The Baptist in me took a long time to die.
I enjoyed hearing from John. I know he’s disappointed in me, but I have many fond memories of our years in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
For those of us who drank deeply from the Evangelical well, we heard a lot of talk about Heaven — the place saved Evangelicals go after they die. Preacher after preacher, including myself when I entered the ministry in the 1970s, said that this life was preparation to meet God. We were told to focus on the important stuff: going to church, reading the Bible, praying, tithing, witnessing. These practices were meant to draw us closer to Jesus in preparation for the day we when draw our last breath and enter the pearly gates to meet Jesus face to face.
According to Revelation 21:1-5 says:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them; they will be his peoples, and God himself will be with them and be their God; he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away.”And the one who was seated on the throne said, “See, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
Evangelicals will interpret these verses various ways, but the gist is that there is coming a day when every Christian, either through death or rapture, will be carried away to Heaven. This will be a glorious day, no more tears; no more death; no more mourning, crying, and pain. God himself says, “I am making ALL things new.” Most Evangelicals think God will make a new Heaven and a new earth. The former earth and universe will either be destroyed or renovated by fire. Christians will live in the New Jerusalem. No darkness, no night. Jesus is the light of the city. Sounds like an awesome place, right? No more pain really appeals to me, but then I think about the other things that go with an eternity in Heaven, and I quickly say, ‘No thanks, Jesus.” Bruce, aren’t you willing to “believe” if it means no more pain? No.
I have come to understand that we believe what we believe. We don’t choose our beliefs, as if, through libertarian free will, we “choose” whether to believe in Jesus. This is patently untrue, even if it “seems” differently to us. If you really believe we choose our beliefs, I ask you right now, Christians, to CHOOSE to be an atheist. Come on, you can do it! Come to the dark side. The weather is nice, the beer is cheap, and the company is awesome. Couldn’t choose? Why is that? We only believe that which convinces us. We evaluate evidence, and somewhere along the line we become convinced of one or more propositions, and we believe. I will believe in Jesus Christ the day I become convinced that the Christian gospel and the central claims of Christianity are true.
Two other questions remain for me:
Who will live in Heaven with us?
What will we do in Heaven for thirty trillion years?
According to Evangelicals, ONLY born-again people will live in Heaven after death. No Jews. No Muslims. No Buddhists. And certainly no agnostics, atheists, humanists, or pagans. Only Evangelicals need apply. This means that born again Jeffrey Dahmer — a serial killer who ate his victims — will be in Heaven, but moral, ethical atheists will be in Hell. That’s some fucked up thinking, is it not? Worse, think about spending eternity with the likes of fine Christians such as Revival Fires, Jaisen, John, James, Steve, and Dr. David Tee. Can you imagine them being your neighbors for eternity? I wonder of there will be suicide in Heave? 🙂
However long eternity is, human beings will live on in either Heaven or Hell (actually the eternal Kingdom of God and the Lake of Fire). What will Evangelicals do for eternity in Heaven? Some Evangelicals believe that eternity will be spent in community in a new Heaven and Earth. Everything will be perfect. I have heard some fantastical sermons about Heaven over the years, most without Scriptural warrant. According to this view of Heaven, life will be one long party, maybe like Mardi Gras without the beads, boobs, and booze. Or maybe Jesus will tell Evangelicals, “Hey that stuff is okay! Let’s party, brothers and sisters.”
Another dominate view of Heaven is the idea that eternity will be one never-ending praise and worship service. Evangelicals will spend eternity like Baptist Catholics, kneeling, standing, kneeling, standing . . . and singing. Lots and lots of singing. Can you imagine listening to masturbatory praise songs ad nauseam for millions of years. Kill me now. 🙂
How do preachers sell this nonsense to congregants? They convince themselves that an eternity of worshipping a narcissistic deity is the price one must pay for Jesus saving them from their sins.Ugh, no thanks. I might be convinced of the party Heaven if we can move Revival Fires, Jaisen, John, James, Steve, and Dr. David Tee outside the city gates, never to be seen again. Or maybe they could be tasked with cleaning the sewers in Heaven. These giants of the faith have a lot of expertise in “shit,” so it shouldn’t be too hard to teach them to clean up in the next life what they refuse to clean up in this life.
The Evangelical Heaven doesn’t appeal to many of us. One life is sufficient, and we plan to live life to its fullest. Only one life, ‘twill soon be past, and then you are dead. Harsh? Sure, but nonetheless true. If you have evidence to the contrary, please leave it in the comment section.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.” (Matthew 18:19-20 NRSV)
According to this passage of Scripture, when two or three Christians gather in Jesus’s name, he is among them or in their midst. I heard this claim countless times growing up. As a pastor, I would remind congregants that Jesus, in the person of the Holy Spirit, was in our midst. How did I know this? I “felt” it, as did others. How could it be otherwise? What evidence could I have provided for the claim that Jesus was literally with us as we praised and worshiped him? None. Oh, I claimed to have evidence: proof texts, souls saved, backsliders reclaimed, sins confessed, anointed preaching, spirited singing. Rare was a Sunday that I didn’t feel at some point or another the presence of God, as did countless congregants.
This belief is common among Evangelicals. What church and pastor doesn’t want to be known as spirit-filled people; believers who sense and know Jesus in sitting right there with them at church? It is not uncommon for churches to advertise their proximity to Jesus or his sidekick, the Holy Ghost. What do you do when ten local churches trumpet their Jesusness; especially when each church has different doctrines and practices from the others? Churches assume that if two or three members are gathered together, Jesus promised to be with them. However, that is a claim. How does any church or pastor actually know the man, the myth, and the legend Jesus H. Christ is among them? They can’t. This is a supernatural claim for which they can provide no evidence. Either you believe this claim or you don’t. That’s faith.
Look at all nonsense going on in Evangelical churches today — especially megachurches. Rock music, swaying singers, shallow sermons, and low expectations. I have watched enough church service videos to conclude that many megachurches are little more than entertainment venues for believers. Feel good pablum keeps people coming back week after week; ssumed by everyone is that Jesus is right there with them.
As an atheist, I am confident that the Evangelical God is a myth. This means Jesus is NOT in their midst; that what congregants feel are the effects of indoctrination, conditioning, and socialization. When you grow up in the church believing Jesus is with you, guess what? You are going to believe Jesus is your BFF. Every Sunday, Jesus is right there with you, as he is with everyone else. Well, except Deacon Bob. He’s been molesting children for years, but everyone pretends he is just “friendly” with children. Bob says he loves Jesus, but he loves feeling up little girls more. Do Evangelicals really believe that Jesus is with every last Christian, regardless of their behavior? Yep. Jesus is the eternal voyeur. He’s all-present and all-knowing. He sees and knows everything. So Jesus knows Bob is a pedophile, yet he allows Bob to play the sanctified part. Imagine how different Sunday church would be if Jesus said, “Deacon Bob, thou art the man.” And with that, he was hit by a bolt of lightning and died. Jesus sure showed him, right? Not really. After all, Bob is a born-again Christian. All that killing him did was take him to Heaven early. What a punishment, right? Meanwhile the children he molested are left behind to deal with the consequences of Bob’s wicked, vile behavior.
The Bible says this about Satan:
For such boasters are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of ChristAnd no wonder! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.So it is not strange if his ministers also disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness. Their end will match their deeds. (2 Corinthians 11:13,14 NRSV)
Satan disguises himself as an angel of light and a minister of righteousness. The question that must be asked then is how Evangelicals know it is Jesus in their midst and not Satan? If Satan is a master of disguises, how can Evangelicals know he’s among them, and not Jesus. Or maybe both Jesus and Satan show up for Sunday church. How do Evangelicals determine whom to worship?
Oh Bruce, Evangelicals have discernment. This is a claim for which no evidence will be forthcoming. At least 80% of white Evangelicals voted for Donald Trump three times. Not too discerning, right? Look at what Trump is doing to the United States. Listen to his disgusting, vile rants on social media. A violent bully, Trump only cares about his image and bottom line. Yet, Evangelicals still support him, even after the release of the Epstein Files. They have been sucked into the Trump Cult, and it remains to be seen if ANYTHING will get them to see what a huge mistake it was to vote for Trump.
If I believed in God, and by extension Satan, I would conclude that Evangelicalism has largely been co-opted by Satan. Of course, I don’t believe this, so I am more inclined to think that Evangelicals have sold their souls for a bowl of pottage. They have traded piety for political power. They have abandoned their calling. Instead of arrogantly and proudly claiming Jesus is ever with them, perhaps Evangelicals will take a careful look at what they have become and repent.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
According to young earth creationists, God destroyed the world with a flood that killed every living creature on earth, save Noah and his family. Millions of humans and billions of innocent animals died. There’s no evidence that this story took place, but millions of Christians and Muslim believe it.
Gonorrhea is totally a human-restricted infection, one that has afflicted humans for thousands of years. The disease may have jumped from cattle to humans originally.
Gonorrhea is one of the oldest sexually transmitted infections (STIs) known to humankind. There is some conflict of opinion regarding its exact origin, but according to the general consensus, the disease has been present from the ancient times. A disease resembling gonorrhea was described by the Chinese emperor, Huang Ti (2600 BC) in his textbook. It is believed that the mention of “an issue of seed” in the Book of Leviticus in the Old Testament and the precautions suggested refers to this disease. Gonorrhea was termed “strangury” by Hippocrates (460–375 BC) who claimed that it resulted from the “pleasures of Venus.” Celsus (25 BC–50 AD) was well aware of gonorrhea and its complications. He used to catheterize patients with urethral strictures. The Greek physician, Galen (131–200 AD) coined the term “gonorrhea” and he referred to it as “an unwanted discharge of semen” (gono: seed, rhea: flow)
According to the Bible, only Noah, his family, and the animals on the ark survived God’s genocidal destruction of most life on earth. If gonorrhea is a solely human infection, and there were only eight humans on Noah’s big boat, which one of them had gonorrhea?
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I have been blogging for almost 20 years — 12 years with this iteration. And just when I think I have seen everything, . .
What follows are several emails I received from Terri Beaudry’s email address. I say “her” email address because I am supposed to know that multiple people use the identical email address.
Without commentary, here’s the emails I recently received from Terry’s email address.
Terri’s email address: I’m actually Louise, a close relative who lives in same house. “Eaton” is Terri’s maiden name. I use her email. But I’ve read alot of your stuff, including the “Why?” section. Terri’s super busy, not sure if she’ll have time to write back or respond. I’ll let her know.
Terri’s email address: Louise here. I just read the blog now. I let her know what you said. She said to tell you that the reason she emailed lots is because the comment section was blocked half the time.
Terri’s email address: I was the one you were addressing that blog to, not Terri. As I was the one who sent a comment by email.
If you think that if someone disagrees with you agreeably, in a kind way with good intention, that they are not allowed to express their thoughts without you becoming rude or strangely defensive, then your statement that says, “I am interested in what you have to say” is bogus.
And if you don’t publicly clear it up in your blog so as not to give your readers/commenters a false idea, you are using an underhanded form of censorship and being very unfair and dishonest.
Please do not send me any more links.
Bruce: I responded to you as if you are Terri. She used multiple names when commenting, so I assumed your email was just another name change. So, what I said was addressed to Terri.
I asked her not to email me. It’s simple as that.
Bruce Gerencser
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I recently received yet another email from Terri Beaudry. My response follows.
We over here cannot comment in comment section, because box does not appear. Hence, this email.
The only thing I can tell you is that the problem is on your end. Flush your cache. This fixes most problems. You might also try different browsers to see if your browser is the problem. If you are running security software or plugins, they can cause problems too.
You can also subscribe to receive my writing via email, as hundreds of people do.
I believe you understood that I didn’t want you to email me again. I sent you no less than four emails that asked you to stop emailing me. Yet, here we are again. I suspect you are one of those Evangelical Christians who believes that what you have to say is all that matters. All praise be to Jesus, right? I am an instrument for his using. *sigh*
The recent blog about deconstruction, which states that evangelicals all say that only the destination matters, and that they tell you that you will go to heaven if you believe the right things, isn’t fully true.
This is going to come off as appealing to authority, but I’m the one with the expertise when it comes to Evangelicalism in general, and the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement specifically. Terri, if you have statistical evidence for your claim, please provide it. If not, your limited anecdotal experiences mean little in this discussion. I’m not saying I doubt your experiences. What I am saying is that those limited experiences have given you a warped understanding of Evangelicalism.
Here’s the facts: ALL Evangelical sects and churches put a premium on believing the right things. You can verify this by going to the websites of the major Evangelical denominations and independent churches and reading their official doctrinal statements. You will quickly learn that beliefs matter and they are that which will be used to measure whether you are a Christian,
Perhaps in the circles you ran with, that was so. But IFB and Baptist are a very small part of Christianity as a whole on this planet.
You have no idea what circles I ran in, do you? This information is readily available on this site.
Yes, I started my ministry career as an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) preacher. What you seem to not know is that I left the IFB church movement twenty years before I left Christianity. I not only pastored IFB churches, I also worked for Sovereign Grace Baptist, Christian Union, Southern Baptist, and nondenominational churches too. Further, I preached for IFB, GARBC, Southern Baptist, Freewill Baptist, Sovereign Grace Baptist, Assembly of God, Charismatic, and non-denominational churches. And finally, you might want to read the post But Our Church is DIFFERENT! From 2002-2008. our family attended about 125 churches.
The above evidence should be sufficient for you to withdraw your unfounded claim that I was always an IFB preacher. I wasn’t. End of discussion.
And IFB is definitely not mainstream, it’s seen as almost like a cult.
*sigh* What you meant to say is that IFB churches are different from your flavor of Christianity so that makes them a cult. Go read the doctrinal statements of the major IFB institutions. Compare those statements to those of non-IFB Evangelical sects. I think you will find mostly agreement on the core doctrines of Christianity.
There are millions of IFB congregants. Thousands of IFB churches dot the American landscape and worldwide. Add Southern Baptists, who are indistinguishable belief-wise from the IFB church movement, and you end up with a group that is the second largest denomination in the United States. In the 1970s and 1980s, many of the largest churches in the U.S. were IFB congregations.
You may not like what IFB churches believe and practice, but that does not mean they are not mainstream. Again, do some research. Compare IFB beliefs and practices with non-IFB Evangelical churches. You will largely find agreement, except for denominational peculiarities and cultural differences.
Your use of the word cult is downright silly. ALL religions are cults, as any dictionary will tell you. I suspect you are using “cult” in a colloquial sense: IFB churches have beliefs and practices I disagree with, so they must be a cult.
Does the IFB church movement have patriarchal, authoritarian tendencies? Sure, but so do many non-IFB Evangelical sects. You seem to want to single out IFB churches due to negative experiences you have had with them. Evangelicalism as a whole is the problem, yet you seem to want to focus on the IFB church movement while giving the broader Evangelical church a pass.
I’m not saying all the congregants in it are bad people, or that all the pastors within are insincere. But I’ve noticed that alot of people within these churches tend to be less compassionate and more snobbish and judgmental (despising tax collectors and sinners that Jesus would have ate with) than other denominations I’ve been in.
Define “less compassionate” and “more compassionate.” How do you determine these seemingly arbitrary measurements? Maybe you meant to say that ALL churches have people who are less compassionate than other people. This is a human problem, not an IFB one. I met plenty of thoughtful, caring people in IFB churches.
You need to study IFB doctrines — especially separation, both personal and ecclesiastical — and visit a lot of IFB churches to see if your biases prevent you from seeing IFB congregations as groups of fellow Christians who sincerely believe that they are right — just like you do. And as far as caring about people, IFB churches are at the forefront of trying to evangelize the world for Jesus. They “care,” but may do caring differently from your church. Please explain to me how you determine a metric such as “caring” and “not caring.” Or, are you, once again, using your subjective experiences as some sort of objective standard for beliefs and practices?
More “religion” and less relationship with Jesus through the Holy Ghost. More head knowledge than heart.
You don’t know this. In fact, you can’t know this. Again, what metrics are you using to come to this conclusion? Do you really want to say that many IFB church members are unsaved? How did you determine they have “more head knowledge than heart”?
I’m not putting anyone down, it’s just an honest, objective observation.
I’m sure you believe this . . . but you ARE putting down IFB churches, as anyone who reads this article will easily conclude.
Your comments may be honest; meaning you believe these things to be true based on subjective experiences, but objective you are not. How could you be since all you have is a superficial understanding of the IFB church movement?
You yourself wrote in a post that it was typical for ministers in IFB churches to hound male congregants who left by calling them “faggots. That would be unthinkable in normal churches. It actually borders on crazy and is definitely abusive.
I wrote no such thing. I never would since it is factually untrue. The IFB is certainly homophobic, but so is much of Christendom.
What is a “normal” church, Terri? Who decides what is normal? By what standard do we decide what’s normal?
Religion in general is abusive. The differences between sects is a matter of degree. Are IFB churches patriarchal and authoritarian? Yep, but this is hardly an IFB problem. Plenty of the same going on in non-IFB churches
Certainly not what Jesus would do.
You have no idea what Jesus would do. Consider, all we have are handed down contradictory Bible stories written by unknown authors that detail what Jesus would do. Are you “doing what Jesus would do”?
You seem to want to keep the gate, the arbiter of who walks through the Christian gate and who doesn’t. All I see, Terri, is anecdotes and subjective experiences. And that’s fine for you, but when you use these things to judge millions of devoted Christians, you have stopped being objective.
Your experience includes only a small cross-section of the Church at large. ( the Body of Christ). Again, not a put-down, just a factual observation.
I am laughing as I read this. I believe what I wrote above will clearly burn this straw man to a crisp. As you now know, I wasn’t always an IFB preacher. You also know, I actually had a broad church experience. So much for this being a “factual” observation. I am sure you meant to say “opinion” instead.
Thank you for telling me that the church at large is “the body of Christ.” Shucky darn, I didn’t know that. I am not sure why you think you need to “educate” me.
For the record, I wouldn’t recommend anyone attend an IFB church. But, I also wouldn’t recommend attending an Evangelical church either. (Please see Are Evangelicals Fundamentalists?) I am a secularist, a humanist, and an atheist, so my advice is to sleep in on Sundays, eat brunch, drink beer, and enjoy watching football or spending time with your family. This seems better than sitting on hard pews listening to droning preachers, and having to pay for the privilege of being bored.
I wish you well, Terri.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I recently received the following question from a Christian man named Joel. My response follows.
It’s not true that you can’t be saved.
Is this a general statement or a specific one? Is Joel claiming universal salvation? How does Joel KNOW that it is NOT true that I can’t be saved?” It is clear from the Bible that apostates and reprobates cannot be saved. They have crossed a line of no return.
Further the book of Hebrews says:
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spiritand have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away, since they are crucifying again the Son of God to their own harm and are holding him up to contempt. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
Let’s take a careful look at these verses.
The text says “For it is impossible.” What is “impossible?” To restore a Christian who has fallen away.
Have I been enlightened, tasted the Heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God, and power of the age to come? Yes.
It is clear from Scripture and personal testimony that I was a follower or Jesus. Yet, I am an atheist today. Why is that? The above text answers this question by saying that I have fallen away and crucified Jesus afresh, making a mockery of him.
Hebrews 10:26-30 says:
For if we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sinsbut a fearful prospect of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy “on the testimony of two or three witnesses.”How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know the one who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:26-30)
Have I spurned Jesus, profaned the blood of the covenant, and outraged the Spirit? Have I received the knowledge of the truth? Yes, and this means there no longer remains a sacrifice for my sins. No blood atonement, no salvation.
It is clear from Hebrews 6 and 10, that I am unsaved and can never be saved again.
That verse that says about how it’s impossible for a person who was once enlightened, etc. and who has seen the powers of the come…
You haven’t seen the powers of the age to come, but a somewhat watered-down version of Christianity, where it was taught in IFB seminary that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today. That wasn’t your fault that you were taught that.
Sigh. Joel wrongly believes that I haven’t seen “the powers of the age of come.” Based on this faulty conclusion, Joel believes I was taught a watered-down version of Christianity. He provides no evidence for his claim. Joel just asserts his claim and expects everyone to just trust him.
I suspect Joel is either a pentecostal or charismatic Christian. What Joel does not know is that I was a non-cessationist; someone who believes the gifts of the Holy Spirit are in force and operational today. A cessationist is someone who believes the gifts of the spirit are not for today. That said, much of what goes on in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches is downright heretical. No “miracle” is out of bounds, so healing evangelists report crazy claims.
I attended Midwestern Baptist College in the mid-70s to train for the ministry. According to Joel, Midwestern taught me a watered-down version of Christianity. Maybe, but Joel is unaware of the fact that I left the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement in the 80s — 20 years before I deconverted. There goes another straw man up in smoke. I just love setting fire to straw men. 🙂
I think you just got discouraged and went AWOL for awhile.
I left Christianity almost 20 years ago. So much for going “AWOL for awhile.” In other words. my atheism is temporary, and to quote Arnold Schwarzenegger, “I’ll be back.” This is patently untrue. My atheism is not a temporary viewpoint. I will, however, get saved for $5,000,000. 🙂
Joel thinks the reason I left Christianity is because I “got discouraged.” I am sure discouragement played a part, but the primary reason I left Christianity is this: the central claims of Christianity are false. They no longer make any sense to me.
You were seeing a very lukewarm version of “church”.
How could Joel possibly know this? Did he attend any of the churches I pastored? No. Did he know I left the IFB church movement 20 years before I deconverted? No. Had Joel gone to any of the churches I pastored, he would have learned “lukewarm” was not in my vocabulary. I was a committed Christian who took seriously the teachings of the Bible and tried to put my faith into practice every day of the week,
Joel, you might want to peruse the posts on the WHY? page.
I recently received the following email from a reader named Richard. I don’t remember corresponding with Richard before, but he says we have, so I will take his word for it.
What follows is my response.
The challenge you offered in your last blog posting may have been offered tongue-in-cheek, but could have been a serious request on your part: “On April 1, 2026, at 4:20 PM, God is calling every Christian who promised to pray for me to gather together in the Ney Park for a time of worship and prayer. Perhaps, my former best friend, Pastor Keith Troyer, will come and lead this testimony to God’s love, forgive- ness, and healing. Maybe all my former colleagues in the ministry who said they would pray for me will be in attendance too. Throw in Dr. David Tee, John, Revival Fries and other “praying Christians,” why, these mighty prayer warriors will surely deliver me from my afflictions; and if they do, I promise to serve Jesus the remaining days of my life. I will even record a YouTube video testimony of my healing. Total healing, not just my hemorrhoids.”
Whether my challenge was tongue-in-cheek remains to be seen. 🙂 Surely, if thousands of Evangelicals show up in Ney, Ohio at 4:20 PM on April 1, 2026, I will take that as a sure sign from God of his existence. Here’s the Christian God’s chance to make not only a deep, lasting impression on me, but also my family, friends, and readers of this blog.
I’m confident that the Ney Park will be empty on April 1, outside of a few children and adults playing sports — weather permitting. If I am able, I will go down to the park at the appointed time to see if anyone shows up.
We have corresponded before but not real recently. I am 73 years old Bruce, so I have about five years on you chronologically. Neither one of us has all that many years remaining on this sojourn here on this planet. I am one of those individuals who prays for you from time to time, however, I will not be making the journey to Ney, Ohio on April Fools Day of this year.
God wants to see the sincerity of your faith; your willingness to go to the ends of the earth — Ney, Ohio, population 356, — to save the one sheep that was lost. Alas, you and your fellow believers will remain home and pray, leaving me in your sin and degradation.
Imagine what would happen if your God actually healed me from head to toe. Imagine the news reports and blog posts. If I am healed, I will have a complete physical exam, and afterward, I will release all of my medical records to the public, showing, without a doubt that God has supernaturally healed me. I guarantee you that if this happens, it will be one of the biggest stories in human history. Sick, dying man healed and restored to health. Doctors will have no answers for this miracle, and neither will atheists.
I do believe that God answers prayer because He has answered many prayers in the past I have sent His way.
No one can empirically know whether a God answered their prayers. Billions of prayers are prayed to all sorts of deities every day, yet most of these prayers go unanswered. God has a poor prayer track record answering prayers, so why should anyone believe one word in the Bible about prayer? Personal experience and observation say to me that a “God who answers prayer” is one of the biggest cons ever cooked up by religious leaders.
How do you empirically know God answered your prayers? Belief=personal opinion, and I can’t think of any way a believer can justify and prove their answered prayer claims. I accept that you believe that God answered your prayers, but I don’t believe he did.
He certainly is more than capable of healing you totally, but there is some work you must do to aid Him in that process.
Evidently, you don’t believe what your God said in James 5:13-16:
Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up, and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed.
The prayer of faith saves the sick. Whose prayer? Whose faith? Not mine. It is the prayer of faith from the elders that saves and heals the sick. Mark 11:24 says, So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. This seems to say that if Christians pray and believe, their prayer will be answered. Evidently, you don’t pray and believe, Richard. If you did, I would be healed. Surely, if thousands of Christians pray and believe, God will heal me. God says in James 5:16, that Christian prayers are righteous and effective. EFFECTIVE, Richard. Are you saying that God is wrong?
No, it seems to me that the blame for unanswered prayers rests solely on the shoulders of Christians. The Bible seems to say to Christians that if they want something bad enough, God will will give it to them. It’s evident, at least to me, that the thousands of Christians who said they were praying for me either lied or are lazy pray-ers. As a former Christian, I suspect most Christians are lazy (or superficial) pray-ers. Too busy to fast and pray for my healing. Here I am, a poor wandering sheep, and God’s sheep finders are too busy eating pizza and watching the Winter Olympics.
All the king’s horses and all the king’s men are unable to put Bruce’s faith back together again. You certainly need a “faith lift” for the petition you have mentioned above to be fulfilled. At the moment, you still consider yourself to be both a humanist and an atheist. “But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.” Hebrews 11:6 KJV The ball is therefore in your court Bruce.
Sigh, such bad theology, Richard, God is the creator of the universe, the sovereign over all. Ephesians 2 says that salvation is by grace through faith, faith is a gift from God. We have no faith in and of ourselves. God must give is faith in other for us to be saved. We are dead in trespasses and sins, and unless God gives is spiritual life, we cannot be saved. John 6:44 says: No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day.
Besides, according to the Bible (and countless believers), I am a reprobate and an apostate. I CAN’T be saved. Does not Hebrews 6:4-6 describe me:
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away, since they are crucifying again the Son of God to their own harm and are holding him up to contempt.
According to this text, I have fallen away and it is IMPOSSIBLE to restore me again to repentance.
So, the ball is in God’s court, not mine.
You cannot be both an atheist and a believer at the same time.
Really? Shocker. 🙂
You must also consider who He is and who you are.
I know who and what I am. However, when it comes to God, I see no compelling evidence for the existence of God. Thus, I have considered who God is: a myth. If you have actual evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it, I am ready and willing to believe, but so far, I have found the arguments for God lacking. I am awaiting the day when an apologist finally convinces me that that the Trinitarian God is true. For the record, I think it is impossible for believers to prove the Trinity — both Biblically and philosophically.
If you are the one trying to order God around to fulfill your request at your venue on your particular date and time, that seems to indicate to me that you want to be God and you want Him to accede to your will.
I know God is busy — so many car keys and parking spaces to find for praying unbelievers— so I talked to the third God in the Trinity, and he scheduled an appearance of Jesus in Ney Ohio on April 1, 2026 at 4:20 PM. One caveat: at least one thousand people who prayed for me must physically come to the park on the appointed day and time. If 999 Christians show up, God will not heal me.
I am not God, and that is why I contacted the Holy Ghost. My healing totally depends on God and at least one thousand prayer warriors. If I remain unhealed, it is not my fault. Name one thing I did, Richard, that would preclude God from healing me?
God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. See James 4:6 & 1 Peter 5:5.
Ah, here comes self-righteous judgment. You say I am proud, but how could you possibly know this? If you talk to my partner, grown children, and friends, you will quickly learn that pride is not a problem of mine. I have the opposite problem: a lack of self-worth. Do you have evidence, Richard, that suggests otherwise?
God certainly can both heal and save you Bruce, but you must choose to cooperate with Him.
You assume I am resisting God. How could I resist him since the Bible says I am “dead.” Last I knew, dead people can’t do anything. Salvation is of the Lord, right? If this is true, then what part, exactly, do I play in my salvation? If I must cooperate with God, Richard, please share exactly what I must do to be saved?
Hope to see you and thousands of praying Christians on April 1. If everyone shows up, I will become a fool for Christ.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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I am here to report that I am not in the Epstein Files. I searched for my name, but it did not appear anywhere in the files. Boy, was I worried. 🙂 Donald Trump, of course, features prominently in the files, but just remember, he already been found innocent. Besides, Trump was never on Epstein’s Pervert Island. Right? Does anyone doubt Trump’s guilt? I mean outside of MAGA sycophants who wouldn’t believe he was guilty if God himself said he was.
Funny thing about God, the Big Man Upstairs is mentioned over 20,000 times in the files. Jesus is mentioned hundreds of times too. I know, I know, shocking. But, if you think about it, is it really surprising that God is in the Epstein Files? After all, God (Jesus) watched everything that happened on the Island, and did absolutely nothing. And I mean nothing. Think of all the debauchery that took place, perpetrated by rich men and women. Countless minors were abused, sexually assaulted, and raped, often brought to Pervert Island against their will. Yet, where was God? We are repeatedly told by Evangelicals that God is good and loving; that he cares about his creation and is intimately involved in our lives; that he will be there for us in our time of need. I would think being raped by powerful men would be a “time of need,” yes? Yet, we don’t have one report that says God saved any of the children from having their bodies disgustingly violated by men who thought they were above and beyond the law. Of course, it doesn’t hurt having a fine Christian like U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi protecting sexual predators at every turn. Never forget that Bondi was involved with Epstein’s perverse behavior all the way back to her days in Florida. She is up to her neck in the sewage of complicity, yet she l-o-v-e-s Jesus.
God has much to answer for, but like Trump, he is immune from prosecution. All any of us can do is oppose those who want to advance this evil God’s agenda. Any God who doesn’t care about the abuse of children is a deity unworthy of worship. Worship God if you must, but I shall not as long as he and his followers continue to support evil men doing despicable things to innocent children. This is a seminal moment for Evangelicals, and so far, all I see complicity, excuse-making, self-justification, and deliberate moral and ethical blindness.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
In 1 Kings 18, we find the Prophet Elijah doing battle with the prophets of Baal. No need to tell the whole story. It’s enough for me to say Elijah won the battle and slaughtered all of the prophets of Baal. Elijah prayed one prayer, and BOOM! God sent fire from Heaven! Awesome, right? In John 14, Jesus told his followers that they would one day do greater works than he did. Surely this is a promise for believers today, too. Surely through the power of the Holy Spirit they can do great works. If this is so — and the Bible says it is — I want to propose a surefire way for God to heal me and restore me to the health of an active, athletic twenty-five-year-old man. Are you ready, Christians?
I have been blogging since 2007. Over the past twenty years, thousands of Christians have told me “I am praying for you!” Monday, I had melanoma surgically removed from my neck. My nurse was a friendly young woman; a delight to talk to. She was chatty, and so was I. She learned that I had recently been diagnosed with severe axonal neuropathy, leading to severe nerve pain in my legs. She replied, “well I sure will be praying for you.” I smiled, and said, “Thank you. I appreciate it.” No need to offend, but I sure have heard that line a few thousand times, both as a Christian and as an unbeliever.
As I was deeply meditating on prayer, God sent me a message straight from throne room of God. The Holy One said that I would be completely healed, right down to my hemorrhoids, IF the following happened:
On April 1, 2026, at 4:20 PM, God is calling every Christian who promised to pray for me to gather together in the Ney Park for a time of worship and prayer. Perhaps, my former best friend, Pastor Keith Troyer, will come and lead this testimony to God’s love, forgiveness, and healing. Maybe all my former colleagues in the ministry who said they would pray for me will be in attendance too. Throw in Dr. David Tee, John, Revival Fries and other “praying Christians,” why, these mighty prayer warriors will surely deliver me from my afflictions; and if they do, I promise to serve Jesus the remaining days of my life. I will even record a YouTube video testimony of my healing. Total healing, not just my hemorrhoids.
Surely, if a thousand or more praying Evangelicals — the one true religion — show up at the Ney Park on April 1, 2026 at 4:20 PM, God will hear their prayers and heal me, right? Right? Thousands of singular prayers have already been uttered on my behalf, without success. Maybe corporate prayers are required for success, but I have been lifted up in prayer by numerous churches over the years. Are their unified prayers not enough? All this praying, and no salvation or healing. What’s up with that?
I will await healing on April 1, 2026. Until then, I have a CT scan of my abdomen and pelvis scheduled, along with an appointment with yet another neurologist in Toledo. I have faith, but my fingers are crossed.
You were once a Christian. You know how we lied when we said “I’ll pray for you.” We meant well, but quickly moved on to other needs. Of the thousands of people who said they would pray for me, it is doubtful that many of them ever did beyond a prayer for me while I was on their mind. If only they had prayed for me every day, God might have healed me.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
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