For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. (1 Corinthians 14:33)
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! (Psalm 133:1)
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Ephesians 4:3-4)
These verses clearly teach that God expects his body (the church) to dwell together in peace and unity. If there is confusion (disorder, instability), God is not its author. In other words, if you see disorder in a church, its members are to blame, not God.
According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit lives inside every believer. He is their teacher and guide. Further, the Bible says that followers of Jesus have the mind of Christ. If these verses are true, what are we to make of all the confusion, disorder, conflict, and instability we see in churches? Sure, I know more than a few Christians who are good examples of what it means to be a follower of Christ. But, I also know more than a few Christians who are nasty, mean, hateful sons of bitches. I’ve watched church business meetings turn into shouting matches, and countless people leave churches in a huff, all because they couldn’t get their way or their preacher believed something they felt was wrong.
As an Evangelical pastor, did I experience peace and contentment? Did the churches I pastored have long periods when peace, harmony, and joy were experienced by most congregants? Sure. On balance, I thoroughly enjoyed being a pastor. Church services were enriching and fulfilling. That said, there were times when the ministry was burdensome due to church turmoil and conflict. Most of the disharmony was needless, the result of selfish people wanting their way. On occasion, meaningful disagreements cropped up, but typically the church conflict I experienced was, to put it bluntly, stupid; little more than childish disagreements over minor points of doctrine or decisions I made.
The last church I pastored was a small Southern Baptist congregation in Clare, Michigan. When I candidated, I warned the church that I had no stomach for church conflict. I had reached a point in my ministry where I just wanted to preach and teach the Bible and help people in need. Six months in, conflict arose. Ugly stuff, to say the least, yet the church was shocked when I resigned. Did I not warn them that I had no interest in dealing with the petty bullshit that plagues most churches.
I don’t expect churches to be perfect. However, I do expect them to practice what they preach. According to one source, there are over 40,000 Christian denominations — each with their own beliefs. How does this square with the Bible claim that there is “One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism?” Simple, Bruce, my church/denomination is right. We represent True Christianity!All those other churches/denominations are false. This, of course, is just another version of No True Scotsman. Besides, if you pay attention to True Christian churches, you will see lots of internecine conflict.
If confusion, disunity, and disagreement are common among followers of Jesus, what should unbelievers think about Christianity? Is Christianity some sort of grand ideal, or is it transformational? It seems, at least to me, that the former is true. And if faith in Christ doesn’t transform lives, what good is it? Is the goal passing a test on doctrinal beliefs and praying the right prayer, or is the objective to love God and love your fellow man? James himself said, Faith without works is dead. Jesus said in Matthew 25 that true belief will be judged by how they treat the least of these in our society.
I am convinced that the central claims of Christianity are false. Since it is unlikely that anything will be forthcoming that will change my mind, I doubt I will ever become a Christian again. That ship has sailed. Currently, I have a low opinion of Christianity — especially Evangelicals. If Christians truly practiced what they preached, I might, at the very least, admire the religion. But as long as tens of millions of American Evangelicals continue to support Donald Trump and his draconian policies that harm undocumented workers, working-class people, and the poor, I see nothing to admire. As long as I hear Christians demean and degrade the “least of these” and support genocide, racism, xenophobia, and bigotry, I want nothing to do with their religion.
All of us should practice what we preach. I admit that all of us fall short and should do better. What bothers me about many Evangelicals is that they see their hatred, genocide, racism, xenophobia, and bigotry as a badge of honor. Consider that people such as Dr. David Tee, Revival Fires, John, and a cast of hundreds think they are good Christians, even though they behave in ways contrary to the teachings of the Bible.
Are you an unbeliever? Does Christian behavior affect how you view Christianity? Please share your thoughts in the comment section.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
David Tee/Derrick Thomas Thiessen is the tall man in the back
Recently, Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, said the following in a post titled, We have Time Today. All grammar, punctuation, and nonsense in the original. My response follows.
Thiessen writes:
We quoted someone in our previous post and it got us thinking about an issue he and another person get so upset about. For some inane reason, our two antagonists have a problem with being called by initials.
The “someone” in this post is my British friend, Ben Berwick. The “another person” is Bruce Gerencser. You, of course, would never know this by reading Thiessen’s post. Evidently, readability and comprehension don’t matter to Thiessen.
I think I can speak for both of us when I say we don’t get “upset” by Derrick Thomas Thiessen’s refusal to use our proper names. It’s annoying and disrespectful, but “upsetting? Not a chance.
The reason why is only known to them and we wonder about it because starting from our freshmen year of college and going past our graduation day, our friends used our first initial to address us. We didn’t take offense at it and demanded they use our full name.
Thiessen spins a whopper when he says he doesn’t know why we don’t appreciate his use of initials in place of our given names. I have explained this to Thiessen several times, as has Ben. Besides, just because he doesn’t mind people calling him by initials, doesn’t mean we have to accept him doing the same with our names. Thiessen knows we want to be addressed by our proper names. He also knows we want him to provide proper attribution when he uses our writing. We can’t make him do either of these things, but his refusal to do so sure says a lot about him and how he treats other people.
In fact, we liked it. The initial was convenient, easy to say and as far as we know, we were the only ones addressed by that initial. Our two antagonists seem to take great offense at being called BG and MM of course, we could have used BB for the latter but we don’t think he would like to be named after children’s ammunition.
I don’t take great offense at Theissen calling me BG. I do, however, think he is being childish and petty. There’s no reason I can think of for not calling me by my proper name — especially after I asked him to do so.
Maybe their anger comes from the fact that it us who reduced their names to initials? We do not know but they seem to disagree with anything we say just because we say it. But why get upset over using a person’s initials?
This is done all the time and as far as we know very few people ever get upset about it. Some people also shorten Jesus Christ to JC and we have not decided if that is insulting or not. Maybe if the initials were used in a derogatory manner it would be considered wrong and insulting but that is another topic for another day.
No, it is NOT done all the time. Show me one website or blog that reduces the names of people mentioned to acronyms. By not using proper names when mentioning people on his blog, he leaves his readers perplexed and uninformed. Who is BG? Who is MM? Thiessen does not explain who these people are. And since he refuses to give proper attribution when he uses our writing, this means the ten people who read his blog can’t check his writing. It is proper and professional to provide attribution for every quotation. There’s no possible justification Thiessen can give for not using our proper names or providing attribution.
Or they may be upset because they suffer from extreme TDS and we do not attack or put down Mr. Trump. Who knows or who cares. Our intent was not to be mean, derogatory, or insulting and it is intent that matters not how people perceive something.
What is TDS? Tiny Dick Syndrome? Typical Derrick Shit? Here’s a good example of what happens when you use acronyms instead of proper names (or nouns?). If you care about readers understanding your writing, there is a proper way to use acronyms. For example, before using the IFB acronym for the first time, I write Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB). That way readers know what I mean when I say IFB. The same goes for the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) or the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches (GARBC). The goal is to provide understanding so there’s no miscommunication on my part.
Thiessen wrongly thinks that “intent” is all that matters. He must have missed the lesson in Bible college that talked about the importance of perception. If Thiessen doesn’t want to be perceived as an asshole, then he should behave appropriately. I deeply care about how people perceive my writing or me as a person. I don’t want to leave readers in the position of having to figure out my intent.
Everything I have written in this post is already known to Thiessen. If he wants to be considered an Asshole for Jesus, it is on him, not me. I will continue to use Thiessen’s real name and provide proper attribution when I respond to one of the endless posts he writes about me or my favorite Meerkat.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, recently sent me a guest post. While I initially agreed to publish his post, I regretted doing so after reading it. After a day of contemplation on the matter, I decided not to make his post available to the readers of this blog. His vitriol towards LGBTQ people in general, and specifically transgender people, was enough for me to pass on publishing his post. You can read the post on Thiessen’s blog, TheologyArcheology: A Site for the Glory of God.
In his initial email to me, Thiessen demanded:
Hello,
I have attached the document to this email, The instructions are the same as before. Do not let your editor or anyone touch the content or make changes. The content has already been through two spell and grammar checks.
It is written the way I want it to read.
DDavidT
I’ve been blogging for seventeen years. Scores of people have sent me guest posts to publish. Not one person has made demands of me as Theissen does with his post. Most people appreciate a professional editor going over their writing. Contrary to what Theissen says, his submission had numerous grammar, punctuation, and word usage errors. And Thiessen knows this. He just published his post on his blog. I used comparison software to compare what Theissen sent me and what he published on his site. Numerous changes were made to the text. So much for the text he sent me not needing an editor.
Since he was unwilling to allow Carolyn, my editor, to edit his post to make sure it meets the publishing standard for this site, I decided not to publish it. Both the content and the quality of the post were sufficient for me to say “no thanks.”
While waiting for me to publish his post, Thiessen said the following on several blog posts:
On another note, BG is asking for people to write guest posts. We figure he is getting sicker and it is harder for him to maintain his writing schedule. We submitted one a few days ago and are still waiting to see if it will be published.
We told him not to let his editor touch the content as we wrote what we wanted in the post. we have checked for several days now to see if it will appear and if it doesn’t,. we will place it here.
BG has often claimed that we do not write like a doctor so we did a post leaning towards an academic style of writing to satisfy his complaint. So we shall see. If he does not want to post it, he should send us an email so we can post it here.
Anyways, if anyone wants to write a comment below, use our initials DT, we are not upset if anyone does.
BG has failed to post our guest post. We wrote it because he made the offer and opened it up to everyone and on any topic. We see that he has made his own posts since we submitted it, so it is not like there is a long line of authors trying to publish something on his website.
We will give it one more day, and if it doesn’t appear, we will post the content here. We do not care where it is posted as long as it gets published. He may not like the concluding remarks, as those do not bode well for him and his LGBTQ friends.
Our initial thought for his delay is that he got very afraid to publish it, but we do not know the real reason.
Author’s note– This is the guest post we sent to BG in response to his offer to publish a guest post by anyone on any topic. We simply got tired of waiting for him to post it. If he eventually does, we may take this one down so there is no duplication.
Thiessen thinks his post is so incendiary that I am “afraid” to publish it. Child, please. When I read this post to my partner and read the line from Theissen that said, “Our initial thought for his delay is that he got very afraid to publish it,” Polly started laughing hysterically — rightly so.
Frankly, I am tired of Theissen refusing to use my name when he mentions me on his site. Why should I post anything of his if he can’t even bother to call me or Ben Berwick by our given names? Instead, he uses the initials BG and MM. Further, he refuses to properly link to our content when he uses it. I always use his proper name and link to his content when mentioning him on this site. That’s what professional, respectful writers do– which Thiessen is neither.
Finally, reader interaction is welcome on this site. I read every comment and try my best to respond, if warranted. Thiessen doesn’t want to participate in this process on this site. Comment on a post of his on this blog, and instead of replying, he turns it into a blog post on his site. And if you try to leave a comment on his blog, Thiessen will likely give it a one-sentence answer or delete it. If a guest writer is unwilling to interact with the fine readers of this blog, why should I bother to publish his writing?
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
In 2007, as a Christian — barely — who was struggling with his faith, I started blogging. For a time, I found the Emergent (or Emerging) Church a welcome respite from Evangelical Christianity, but I eventually found its core beliefs lacking too. A year later, I publicly announced that I was an agnostic, and a few months later, an atheist. I dropped the “agnostic” moniker because I got tired of having to explain repeatedly what the word meant. Currently, I self-identify as an agnostic atheist.
As a Christian blogger, I was repeatedly attacked and harassed by Evangelicals for my “liberal” beliefs — both theologically and politically. Then, as now, Evangelicals took one of two positions about my “faith.”
I never was a Christian.
I am still a Christian, but under the chastisement of God.
In November 2008, I attended church for the last time. Throughout my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism, I have blogged about my experiences and beliefs. Countless Evangelicals have come to this site, determined to set me straight about my beliefs. Thousands of emails, blog comments, and social media messages later, I have noticed certain tactics Evangelicals use to repudiate or evangelize me. Evangelicals are, if anything, predictable. And, to be fair, all of us can be predictable. I know I am, though I generally try to engage people where they are. That said, I’ve become quite adept at sniffing out motivations. I’ve had commenters go out of their way to “hide” their Evangelical beliefs. Often, they will try to suck me in with science or philosophy arguments — which is all the rage on YouTube. Usually, I don’t engage in discussions or debates about the existence of God or the beginning of the universe. I know some readers revel in such subjects, but, for me, I’m not that interested. Not that I lack knowledge sufficient to engage in such discussions. I am confident that I can hold my own. I just don’t find these discussions interesting. Rarely do they lead to satisfying conclusions. So I try to stay focused on Evangelicalism (and the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement) and the teachings of the Bible.
When commenters try to hide their Evangelical beliefs, I’ve become pretty good at cutting through their philosophical bullshit, forcing them to admit that they are not arguing for a generic deity, but the God of the Bible. Once they admit they are Evangelicals who base their beliefs on the teachings of the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Bible, I am ready to have a discussion with them. Sometimes, I will even grant their philosophical beliefs and then ask them how they connect this cosmic deity of theirs to the God of the Bible. Once trapped inside the pages of the Bible, it’s easier to discuss their beliefs.
This brings me to “Dr.” Arv Edgeworth. Edgeworth is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) evangelist from Ohio. Over the past several days, I have received numerous emails from Edgeworth, as has Carolyn, my editor. Edgeworth’s emails had an accusatory, judgmental tone, which is typical coming from IFB preachers. I have directly and pointedly answered Edgeworth’s emails (which you can read in the previous posts in this series). Not because I thought I could make a dent in Edgeworth’s thinking — you don’t argue Fundamentalist Baptists out of their beliefs. I’m content to engage such people, hoping that responses will be beneficial to others — especially lurkers. I have had Evangelical zealots who have engaged me in word-to-word combat return months later, admitting they were wrong or that they treated me poorly. I am always grateful when someone apologizes for their boorish behavior. Sadly, this doesn’t happen very often.
Unfortunately, some Evangelicals use their apologies as a ploy. This has happened often enough that I have a hard time accepting Evangelical apologies as genuine. The first question that comes to my mind is this: Is this a genuine apology? The second question is this: What are their motivations? Take Revival Fires (RF). RF is a terrible example of what it means to be a Christian. He has sent me numerous emails and left scores of comments on this site. He is a nasty, vile son of a bitch; someone who loves posting comments detailing prison rape and scat. Several years ago, I called out his behavior, using Bible verses to show that his behavior was not consistent with the teachings of the Bible. Afterward, I received a nice, respectful email from RF. He wanted to be “friends” with me. My response? Are you fucking kidding me? You shit on my doorstep, piss in my corn flakes, attack and harass my wife and children, and you want me to befriend you? Go fuck yourself. And get some therapy. Soon, RF went back to his putrid ways.
Other Evangelicals have taken this approach with me — mainly Independent Fundamentalist Baptists. I’ve received numerous apologies, only to have the person apologizing return to their hateful ways days or weeks later. As a result of past experiences, I am hesitant to believe people when they suddenly apologize after being so hostile towards me. Is their apology genuine? Time will tell, and I have found that most of them return to their hateful ways. Why? I can’t be certain, but I suspect hatred is part of their religious DNA. The IFB church movement, for example, is built upon a foundation of hate; not just ideas or beliefs, but people and institutions. When a Christian is exposed to this kind of thinking week after week, it is almost impossible for them to change their thinking. Possible, but hard. Typically, lasting change requires leaving the IFB church movement.
I’m sure you are thinking, Bruce, what the hell does this have to do with Arv Edgeworth? I know, I know, I’m a long-winded preacher. 🙂 Yesterday, I received the following email from Edgeworth:
I want to apologize, I have been pretty judgmental in my attitude, and I assumed some things I shouldn’t have. Sorry about that. In spite of our differences, maybe we can reach some common ground.
After this statement, Edgeworth took a conciliatory, friendly approach, attempting to connect with me. He sent me several more emails taking a similar tact. Is Edgeworth being genuine? I have no way of knowing. Time will tell. I certainly accept his apology, but the value of any apology is determined by how a person acts going forward. I don’t expect Edgeworth to agree with me or change his beliefs. What I do expect is that he treats me with respect and lets me tell my story on my own terms. I have had many delightful conversations with Christians over the years; people I had little in common with. It is possible for Evangelicals and atheists to get along. Possible, but not easy. Probable? Not likely, but I feel I should at least try to find common ground with people who hold different beliefs than mine. I’m not a debater. I prefer friendly back-and-forth discussions, say over dinner or a beer at the local pub. Sadly, many Evangelicals (and some atheists) take this approach instead:
This scene from Mars Attacks! — one of my favorite movies — shows how many people approach discussions about religion (and politics). I have no interest in eviscerating Evangelicals, including Edgeworth. I accept his apology, but time will tell whether it is genuine. If he reverts to the IFB norm, it is only a matter of time before I say or write something that will offend his Holy Ghost sensibilities. How will he react? I know how IFB preachers before him have acted, but maybe, just maybe, he will be an exception to the rule.
The ball is in Arv’s court. Will he see the ball? I don’t know, since he has repeatedly told me that he doesn’t plan to read this blog. That’s on him. I am more than willing to engage him in thoughtful discussion. One thing is for sure, Arv will get a lot more exposure as a result of our interaction. 🙂 I just did a Google Search on “Arv Edgeworth.” Three days in, and this site is already the third search result. 🙂 All praise be to Loki.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Occasionally, I receive snail mail from Evangelical Christians, hoping they can evangelize me. My address isn’t hard to find. Let me give it to you so you can send me lots of money:
Bruce Gerencser PO Box 183 Ney, Ohio 43549
🙂 On a more serious note, today, I received a letter from an Evangelical Christian who reads this blog. Gotta love his choice in reading material, right? Here’s what he (or she) had to say (slightly edited for readability):
Dear Bruce,
Want to let you know that Christ loves you more than you know. He does NOT want you to be separated from him in Hell. It is no Christian’s place or job to say whether you were saved or not (David Tee, unreadable name, Revival Fires, John, David, or whoever). See Timothy 2:13 [if we are faithless, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself]. I hope you were. If so, you can return to him, and he is waiting for you to do so. If not, don’t reject the greatest gift! The greatest love from the greatest man to ever live — Jesus Christ.
Enclosed is a tract called Back from the Dead? I encourage you to read it. Also www.chick.com. NO FEAR and the Empty Tomb are great to look at, too.
Sadly, someone can read my writing and still not understand my story. This reader thinks that all it will take to win me back to Jesus is for me to read a tract. Really? This approach may work with people uninitiated in Evangelicalism, but that’s not me. I’m not low-hanging fruit that can be easily picked with cheap, shallow Evangelical propaganda. The same goes for sending me lists of Bible verses. “OMG! I didn’t know the Bible said that,” says Bruce NEVER. I’m sure this reader meant well, but he might want to rethink his approach to former Christians — especially college-trained preachers. I know he thinks the Bible is a magical book; that its words can overcome reason, skepticism, and common sense. It’s not. It’s just a book of words written by men.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
“Revival Fires” is a self-professed Evangelical Christian who frequents this site, leaving a plethora of hateful, nasty comments. He does the same on social media. Revival Fires has an obsession with prison rape and anal sex. I have repeatedly tried to get him to see that his behavior is not consistent with the teachings of the Bible. By appealing to his divine “authority,” I thought he might see the error of his ways and repent. Sadly, he is incorrigible, and I have finally figured out why.
Revival Fires recently left a response to a comment by my friend Ben Berwick. Calling Ben BirdDick, here’s what he had to say:
There is no such thing as a “good Christian “. No one is good. All are depraved and in need of his grace.
In twenty-two short words, Revival Fires reveals why he behaves like he does. You see, Revival Fires ill-bred behavior is driven by his theology; particularly his warped understanding of Christian salvation and human nature.
A saved person, according to the Bible, is a new creation in Christ. II Corinthians 5:16-17 says:
From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once knew Christ from a human point of view, we no longer know him in that way.So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; look, new things have come into being!
The Bible says a lot about personal holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. In Matthew 5-7, commonly called The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus sets forth the requirements to be a Christian. Not suggestions, requirements. In the Beatitudes, found in Matthew 5:3-12, Jesus said:
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Jesus goes on to say in Matthew 5:13-16:
You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything but is thrown out and trampled under foot. You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. People do not light a lamp and put it under the bushel basket; rather, they put it on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.
These verses strongly suggest that Revival Fires is not a Christian. The Apostle Paul said in Galatians 5:
Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery,idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. And those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another.
Paul contrasts the works of the flesh with the works of the Spirit. He states that the fruit of the Spirit is — singular, present tense. Not fruits — pick and choose — but fruit, singluar. The fruit of the Spirit is not a grand objective. No, dear followers of Jesus, Paul declares that if you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you, these behaviors will be evidenced in your life. Again, these verses make it clear that Revival Fires is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. In other words, he is not a Christian.
Revival Fires ignores these verses, justifying his atrocious behavior by saying the Bible says that no one is good; that all of us are depraved and in need of God’s grace. In other words, God didn’t do shit for him, behavior-wise. He sees himself as a depraved sinner and behaves accordingly. Revival Fires has a warped understanding of the Christian gospel. In his mind, salvation is gained by affirming a set of propositional truths. “Believe these things and you shall live,” Revival Fires thinks. (And to be fair, I have met a lot of Evangelicals who think this way, especially Independent Fundamentalist Baptists.) Revival Fires bastardized gospel is little more than a momentary transaction at the church altar where he prayed the sinner’s prayer and Jesus saved him. Lots of IFB churches preach this corrupt gospel. Have you ever wondered why so many IFB readers think I am still a Christian? This is why. At the age of fifteen, I assented to a set of theological propositions, prayed a prayer, and Jesus gloriously saved me — forever. No matter how I live my life, I am a Christian. I could be a rapist, serial killer, or atheist and still be a Christian. Why? The Bible says nothing can separate the Christian from the love of Christ.
Revival Fires thinks he is saved, and nothing he does can revoke his ticket to Heaven. Awesome, right? Sin all you want, you are still saved. Misuse and abuse people, you are still saved. Break every law in the Bible, you are still saved. Tell me again, why, exactly, Jesus died on the cross and ressurected from the dead?
Of course, this question must be asked: If Christian salvation doesn’t change your life, what good is it?
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Object to calling the prison in El Salvador the Trump Administration is using to house undocumented immigrants a concentration camp? Consider: “What distinguishes a concentration camp from a prison (in the modern sense) is that it functions outside of a judicial system. The prisoners are not indicted or convicted of any crime by judicial process.” (U.S. Holocaust Museum)
President Trump thinks executive orders are the equivalent of law. Unfortunately, Congress has done nothing to disabuse him of this false notion.
I saw a video of a Trump Cabinet meeting where the people seated at the table went around the room, one by one, giving praise to King Donald. Disgusting, to say the least. Trump is a petulant child who must be frequently praised lest he throw a tantrum.
When it comes to the Trump Administration, everything I see and hear reminds me of junior high. Well, except for the fact that these juveniles have a massive military and nuclear weapons. What could go wrong, right?
We are in the middle of a measles outbreak that has killed two children and sickened hundreds more, yet HHS director Robert “Worm Brain” Kennedy, Jr. is “investigating” the efficacy of vaccines. Just take Vitamin A, he says, and now we have children getting sick from vitamin poisoning. Kennedy is a threat to the health of the American people.
When Trump first appointed Marco Rubio as Secretary of State, I thought he was a decent pick. However. I noticed in a picture yesterday that Rubio has dark brown stains on his nose — the sure sign of someone who spends his days and nights kissing Trump’s ass. His behavior, so far, has been disgraceful.
President Trump wants to show the world he has a big dick. On his birthday in June, Trump plans to have a large military parade in Washington, D.C. Only authoritarian leaders such as Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un have dick-wagging parades.
Doubt that MAGA is a cult? Some Republican members of Congress want to chisel Trump’s likeness on the face of Mount Rushmore, rename Dulles International Airport with Trump’s name, put his face on the $100 bill, and print a new $250 bill with Trump’s face on the front of it. And then there’s the Marjorie Taylor Greene types who think Trump is the greatest president to ever sit in the Oval Office. Can’t fix that level of stupid.
It’s hard to believe Andrew Cuomo is running to be the next mayor of New York. What’s next, Anthony Weiner running for president? Hell, why not? Morals and ethics no longer matter.
Israel’s genocidal war against the Palestinian people continues unabated. While Hamas is the stated target, it’s clear that it is the Palestinian people who are facing the brunt of Israel’s bloodlust. It will take decades to rebuild Gaza — that is, if Trump doesn’t turn Gaza into an amusement park for American billionaires.
Bonus: The Cincinnati Reds are one game above .500, having won four straight games. Dare I hope? Polly and I hope to attend several games this year.
Bonus Video: Do you have TRS — Tesla Regret Syndrome?
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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The United States is built on the rule of law. Our system only works if everyone plays by the same rules. When a president decides the rules don’t apply to him and he is immune from accountability, what should patriotic Americans do? Or maybe we should ask, what CAN we do?
The Supreme Court has largely given President Trump and his minions the freedom to do what they want. And even when the Court rules against him, Trump ignores their rulings and does what he wants. What do we do when the executive branch becomes lawless and is no longer accountable to Congress, the courts, and the American people? As MAGA supporters are quickly learning, Trump doesn’t give a shit about anyone but himself.
Congress, as long as it is controlled by Republicans will not restrain Trump’s base desire for authoritarian power and money. They want the same.
I weep as I ponder how in the hell we have come to this. Is this the end of this great country of ours? Trump alone is not to blame. He’s the full grown baby that was birthed forty years during the Reagan administration. So cute in 1980, but now this baby has morphed into a full-grown monster who will not rest until his perceived enemies are under the heels of his Nazi jack boots and fascism rules the land.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
An atheist, then, lacks belief in gods. That’s atheism in a nutshell.
I self describe as an agnostic atheist. Since I don’t possess all knowledge about the existence of one or more deities, I am agnostic on the God question. It is possible that at some point in the future, a god may make itself known to us. Unlikely, but possible.
As far as the extant deities are concerned, I am an atheist. I am convinced that the Abrahamic God is a myth. The same goes for the other gods humans created and worship. I have exhaustively studied the claims of Christianity. I am convinced these claims are false. I can’t imagine any evidence will be presented in the future to move me off the conclusion that the central claims of Christianity are false. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.)
Last week, I purchased a New Oxford NRSVue Study Bible. What an awesome, beautiful Bible. Don’t worry, I don’t plan on returning to Christianity. I haven’t read the Bible from cover to cover for seventeen years. I thought I would reread it and do some writing about what I learn. One series I want to write will detail the violent God of the Bible. Fun times ahead, Loki-willing. 🙂
Antitheism, also spelled anti-theism, is the philosophical position that theism should be opposed. The term has had a range of applications. In secular contexts, it typically refers to direct opposition to the belief in any deity.
Antitheists are actively opposed to gods and religions.
I am not an antitheist. I am indifferent towards religions that keep to themselves and don’t stick their noses in my life and the lives of other unbelievers. I have Christian friends, mainly liberal believers. I also have acquaintances who are Unitarians or practice earth-based religions. Their religious practices don’t bother me in the least. I am, however, opposed to religions that try to evangelize people, control the government, and force people to live according to their peculiar interpretations of a religious text. Technically, then, I am anti-Evangelical, anti-IFB, anti-Mormon, anti-Jehovah’s Witnesses, and anti- other fundamentalist religions. Such religions are psychologically harmful and can cause physical harm, especially to women and children. Fundamentalism is the problem.
Sadly, some hardcore antitheists consider me a fake atheist or a closeted Christian. If I don’t hate who and what they hate, I am a fraud or a fake. They are, in my opinion, fundamentalist atheists, every bit as repugnant as hardcore Independent Baptist preachers.
How do you self-describe yourself? Please share your thoughts in the comment section.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
What follows is my response to another email from Independent Fundamentalist Evangelist Arv Edgeworth
Mr. Gerencser,
So nice to hear from you. I don’t read your blog so I won’t be reading your replies to my emails to Carolyn. I read your “Why” section, and all I saw was poor logic on your account, so I have no desire to read any further.
That’s up to you. Remember, you came to this site and then emailed me.
You claim I use poor logic, yet you provide no evidence for your claim. What laws of logic have I violated?
Bruce, you blame God and the “Church” for you neglecting your family. I have known several pastors who built strong ministries, and they had strong family ties, and I saw no evidence they neglected their families in any way. I’m sorry you neglected yours. But that is on YOU, not God.
I don’t blame “God.” He is a myth, so it would be foolish to blame a mythical being for something that happened in my life. I accept full responsibility for the choices I have made throughout my life. Part of accepting responsibility is determining why a certain decision was made. From this perspective, my pastors, professors, and the churches I pastored all played a part in how I neglected my family. I was indoctrinated and conditioned to view the world a certain way. The same goes for how I viewed my calling and the work of the ministry. I can’t be at fault for practicing what I was taught or what was modeled to me by my pastors and peers. I did what I thought was right in the eyes of God. Over time, my thinking changed. How I viewed the ministry in 1976 was very different from the way I viewed it in 1997. Unfortunately, Edgeworth does what many of my critics do: he takes a snapshot of a certain point in my life and applies it to the sum of my life, not allowing for change as I got older and matured.
I was a Creation evangelist for over 20 years, giving over 450 seminars in 27 different states. Sometimes my wife couldn’t go with me because she was our church secretary for 27 years, but she is my best friend, and we are both close to our kids. We will celebrate 60 wonderful years of marriage this week.
Okay? I’m not sure what the point is. We all have a storyline. In my case, I was saved at the age of fifteen and called to preach several weeks later. In the fall of 1976, I enrolled in classes at Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan — an IFB college started in 1954 by Dr. Tom Malone. (Malone, by the way, had an earned doctorate from an accredited state school.) While at Midwestern, I met a beautiful IFB preacher’s daughter. Two years later, we married, and this July we will celebrate forty-seven years of wedded bliss. We are blessed to have six adult children, sixteen grandchildren, and four cats.
My ministerial career of twenty-five years took my partner and me to Evangelical churches (IFB, Southern Baptist, Sovereign Grace Baptist, Christian Union, and Nondenominational) in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. I left the ministry in 2005 and converted from Christianity in 2008. I am now an atheist and a humanist.
You claim you had an intimate relationship with Christ for many years, but now claim He never existed. It can’t be both.
People change their minds. When I was a Christian, I had an intimate relationship with Jesus. I was a sincere follower of Christ. And now I am an atheist. I learned over the years that religious faith is complex; that people, myself included, can hold beliefs that are not true.
I have never said Jesus wasn’t a real person. I am not a mythicist. I think Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic preacher who was executed for his opposition to the Roman government. He was buried in an unknown grave, never to be seen or heard from again. What I reject are the supernatural claims made for Jesus.
You blame God for all bad things in the world, then claim God doesn’t exist. More bad logic?
If God is the sovereign creator of the universe, then, yes, he is responsible for the good and bad that happens in the world. I can make a solid theological argument for this claim; a belief, by the way, I held when I was a pastor.
I can easily defend my past beliefs if challenged. After all, the Bible can be used to prove almost anything.
Like I told Carolyn, you blaming God for everything bad, would be like me seeing a smashed Chevy and no longer believing in General Motors as a great company because they build automobiles that can be smashed by humans. Poor logic.
If God is in control of all things, then, yes, God is responsible for everything, including automobiles.
If Edgeworth wants to discuss or debate this issue, I am game.
You might want to reconsider being an atheist though, if God doesn’t exist then you can’t blame Him for all your failures and the failures of other people. Then the responsibility for you neglecting your family falls only on you. If God doesn’t exist, then you can’t blame Him for creating a world where bad things can happen.
As I have repeatedly stated, I accept responsibility for every decision I have ever made. I have been honest and open about the churches I pastored, detailing both my successes and failures. That said, I refuse to accept blame for things that were not my fault or over which I had no control.
As an atheist and a humanist, I accept and understand that bad things can and do happen, not only to me but to other people. I have had a rough road in life. Life is what it is. All I know to do is to learn from past experiences. I wouldn’t wish my childhood on anyone. Sure, I survived, but not without a hell of a lot of deep wounds and scars. As a 68-year-old man, most of my struggles these days are health-related. I have gastroparesis and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency — both incurable — osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, and degenerative spine disease (that has left me with widespread disc damage in my neck and spine). In August, I had major surgery on my spine. Virtually every moment of my waking hours is dominated by debilitating pain and illness. I should note, before a Christian reader suggests that my health problems are God’s judgment for my unbelief, I started having health problems years before I deconverted. Countless prayers were uttered asking for deliverance or relief, without success.
I won’t be reading your blog that I am sure will be filled with more bad logic, but if you wish to communicate via emails that would be fine. I hope you get things straightened out in your mind so you can put things in proper perspective.
As far as getting straightened out, I am as “straight” as I can be. One hundred percent heterosexual. 🙂
When Edgeworth says “proper perspective” he means seeing things as he does, believing as he does. Remember, certainty breeds arrogance, and there’s nothing more arrogant than expecting and demanding that others believe as you do. That said, I am more than happy to embrace Edgeworth’s beliefs, provided he can give me empirical evidence for his claims. It’s really that simple. I operate on evidence. My goal is to believe as many true things as possible. That’s why I deconverted. The central claims of Christianity no longer made any sense to me. I expand my thinking on this subject in the post titled The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.
We humans mess up sometimes. Blaming a God Who you say doesn’t exist isn’t the answer. Just curious, will you be worshiping the Easter Bunny next Sunday?
I have sufficiently addressed your false claim above. Again, let me be clear, I give blame and credit to whom blame and credit are due. I do, however, worship my wife. Now, there’s a God worthy of worship. 🙂
Unlike Edgeworth, I do not worship inanimate or mythical beings.
Bruce, what you BELIEVE isn’t the REALITY of the way things ACTUALLY are. I know it makes things easier for you in the make-believe world you have built for yourself, which removes a lot of the responsibility for yourself.
Says who? What evidence do you have for this claim other than that you have convinced yourself that your worship and fealty to a mythical being is “reality.” It’s not. I am a materialist. Since God is an immaterial being and you cannot provide empirical evidence for his existence, “God” is not a part of reality (outside of having to live and interact with people who believe God exists and is personally involved in their lives).
Life is actually much harder for humanists. As a Christian, every belief and action was parsed through the teachings of the Bible. What the Bible said was all that mattered. THUS SAITH THE LORD! As a humanist, I have to develop carefully the moral and ethical framework by which I live my life. There are no humanist Ten Commandments, no humanist standard.
If God does exist, you messed up. But guess what, if God doesn’t exist, you still messed up and are still messing up. But now you are also responsible for all the people you are misleading. If you cared about others, instead of just yourself, you would want them to know the REAL TRUTH. Your whole blog or website is based on bad logic and delusion, and is leading people away from God instead of toward Him.
In what way am I “misleading” people? All I know to do is share my story. I don’t try to convert people to atheism. That said, scores of people have told me that I played a part in their deconversion. I don’t preach at people. I don’t comment on Christian websites. Seventeen years ago, I started blogging. My goal then is the same today: to honestly and openly share my story, answer questions people might have about Evangelical Christianity, and to help and encourage people who have deconverted.
If this blog is based on bad logic and delusion, I suggest Edgeworth either deconstruct my story and posts on his website or start a blog to do the same. He makes all sorts of claims about me, yet provides no evidence to support his contentions.
I wish you well. If you were ever IN the body of Christ, you can never be OUT of the body of Christ, that much is sure. You will be in HEAVEN someday, but think of all those who may not be because of your DELUSION, and anger, which should be directed mostly at yourself, not God.
Answered, answered, answered.
If there is a God, according to the IFB gospel, I will go to Heaven when I die. Awesome, right? Thousands of people who read this blog will someday be in Heaven, too. What a party we will have; millions of Atheist Christians praising logic, reason, skepticism, and common sense for their glorious deliverance from the bondage of Evangelical Christianity, complete with rock music, Holy Ghost marijuana, and a free grace bar. And what will Jesus do? He will probably join us. 🙂
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
