Today, Deanna VanZee, an Evangelical Christian, left the following comment on the post Why I Hate Jesus. My response is indented and italicized.
Bruce I came across your site looking into an issue regarding dancing.
VanZee read the post Good Independent Baptist Boys Don’t Dance.
I just read this article.
The post VanZee references here is the most widely read and commented post on this site, Why I Hate Jesus. It is also the most misunderstood article on this site.
I am just going to say it plain, this post is full of logical fallacies. Look into Introductory and Intermediate logic by Bill Nance. It will help you sort your thoughts out. If you go through the book I can help you translate what you said into its propositions and show you were the fallacy lies.
VanZee thinks I am illogical; that if I read several books on logic (which I have) that I will then think correctly. And then what? Coming running back to Jesus and Christianity? VanZee must have missed that I grew up in the Christian church (50 years, longer than she has been alive), attended an Evangelical college, and pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years. She must have missed where I talked about my voracious reading habit as a pastor. Of course she did. VanZee read all of two posts before rendering judgment.
Let me quote the Bible. Let it speak plainly to VanZee: Answering before listening is both stupid and rude. (Proverbs 18:13)
I have a rudimentary understanding of logic and philosophy. That said, I don’t engage in arguments or debates on these subjects. Doing so is a colossal waste of time — for me, anyway. I choose, instead, to tell my story and provide critiques of Evangelicalism and the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement.
The aforementioned post is not a treatise on logic or philosophy. It is, in fact, a political and polemical piece. How could VanZee (and countless other Evangelicals who have objected to the article) not understand this? The graphic of the AMERICAN JESUS at the top of the page is a dead giveaway. Try harder, Evangelicals, try harder.
If VanZee would like to discuss the nature and history of the Bible or Christian theology, I would be glad to do so. Then we can see who is “illogical.” Let’s have a cage match between the Evangelical-turned-atheist and the Holy Spirit-filled Evangelical.
I’m sorry for whatever happened to you. I don’t have time to read your story now, but I can see you were hurt and you are angry… yet you seem to be longing for God and want to get saved.
VanZee couldn’t be bothered to read my story, yet she feels she knows enough to make sweeping, ignorant, false judgments about my life. See Proverbs 18:13 above.
VanZee says she can “see” that I was hurt and that I am angry, and most astoundingly, that I am longing for God and want to get saved — none of which is true. But, VanZee knows better. Evangelicals think they have God-given magical senses by which they can see inside of people and discern what it is they really believe and feel. I have no answer for such nonsense. None. All I can say to VanZee is this: read my damn story and then we will talk. Read the ABOUT page. Read the posts on the WHY? page. Read my autobiographical work. Then, and only then, are you in a position to intelligently talk with me about why I left Christianity and became an atheist. Until then, you are ignorant and uninformed.
I will pray for you. I hope to hear from you again.
Ah yes, the obligatory “I will pray for you.” Thousands of Evangelicals over the years have told me that they are praying for me. Yet, I remain an unrepentant apostate. Why, one could almost conclude that “nothing fails like prayer” or, perhaps, the only “God” Evangelicals are praying to is the ceiling.
I long ago concluded that Evangelicals say “I’m praying for you” because it is, literally, the least they can do. Such statements are little more than a fart in a hurricane. Think of all the things Evangelicals could do for me that would make a difference or make me think that I am anything more to them than another notch on their gospel gun. Years ago, an IFB evangelist sent me $100. Color me impressed. I appreciated his gift. We struck up a friendship. Maybe he hoped his act of kindness would draw me back to Jesus. Regardless, I found him to be a generous and kind person. He even sent me a fancy tie that I wear to this day. Of course, I didn’t return to Jesus. Instead, he is now an unbeliever — and we are still friends. Be careful sending me money. I might use my magical atheist powers to suck the Holy Ghost out of your heart. 🙂 All kidding aside, Evangelicals. Want to make a favorable impression on me? Send me money. Praying may make you feel good, but it’s a masturbatory act — all about you.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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So, VanZee is another ignorant Christian who starts with condescending you after reading ONE article? She must be a brilliant counselor! Okay, enough stupidity from her.
Why are Christians always trying to logically prove something called a faith. Am I the only one who thinks that a faith is a faith because, if it could be proven, then it is a fact? In fact, a faith cannot be proven through logic, and the best you can hope for is a rationalization of a faith.
Yep. Hebrews 11:1,3 says:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. . . Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Bruce, my comment above wasn’t a response to yours, we both posted at the same time 🙂
The Holy Spirit must have been leading both of us. 😂
It is…it is…it is…a SIGN!
Nope, bible defines it more or less like you say,
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. – Hebrews 11:1
Substance as in foundation, confidence, built upon.
Someone believes in the things they hope for, and is this faith which is satisfactory to the mind as evidence.
So, who created the world? Look at the wonders of the world, God made it.
It’s 6,000 years old, I believe the bible, how else could it be otherwise?
So scientific progress gives us a better understanding of the world. We know it’s not 6000 years old, we know there wasn’t an Adam and Eve. We know that historical Old Testament events do not match the archeological realities.
So it’s kind of like this, someone with no qualifications BELIEVES they can become a medical doctor. Their belief is for them sufficient evidence they can do it. They look around, every time they try to get a doctors job they experience the hurdle of requiring qualifications. They have to go to medical school or be basically a quack.
So it is with faith in the bible being sufficient evidence alone. When we look around with todays understanding, we see a different reality than that which satisfies our mind/emotions.
So no, faith is not logical in the biblical sense, it’s built on a faith with evidence purely of what the mind thinks, based on a lack of knowledge of the facts of today. It is not really a logical thing at all, just a conclusion without the full available information.
For Evangelicals, is it obligatory to be arrogant? The least arrogant Evangelical I know, who is a really nice person most of the time, is very quick to declare that people who don’t believe the way she does aren’t True Christians. The last time she told me that, I pointed that I, an ex-Christian as well as an ex-Catholic, was willing to call people by whatever label they wanted. Oh, and they might believe just as fervently as she did, that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. That was our last conversation on religion, a few years ago now.
VanZee: “I will pray for you.”
I always want to reply: How often / frequently will you pray for me? Everyday? Each morning and each evening? At a minimum, 15 minutes of daily prayer on my behalf? Until you receive notice from me that I have repented and returned to Jesus? Is my soul important enough for you to be my daily prayer warrior against all the demons that undoubtedly have an influence on my life? If you don’t commit to this, is this a reflection of how insignificant my worth is to you? Or is it a measure of your lack faith that your prayer life isn’t effective? How dedicated are you in helping me? (etc.)
I think I’ll have to borrow this for the next Christian who claims to being praying for me.
yeah its true, this is golden
Yes, that is the best response I’ve seen!
Deanna VanZee: ” I don’t have time to read your story now, but . . . ”
Zoe: Well that pretty much says it all.
I am an arrogant a$$hole who wouldn’t even consider listening to someone who can’t even spell the word “where” correctly try to school me in logic.
I agree with the astute commenters who pointed out that one cannot use logic with regard to a faith proposition.
At least this evangelical didn’t get to the point of threatening Bruce with hell!
so, Deanna is yet one more Christian twit. Poor gal, she’s praying so hard and nothing happens. Is it because this god loves us atheists? That it hates her? Or that it doesn’t exist?
“Bruce I came across your site looking into an issue regarding dancing.”
DANCING!?!! THE HUSSY! Dancing is vertical foreplay and a most grievous sin!
FOR SHAME!
Oh, great — another clueness Christer doing the “I’ll pray for you” shtick.
(prays to Dear, Sweet Uncle Loki to b*tchslap Deanna with a healthy dose of Reality)
(in role of Goddess of Random Equipment Malfunctions, prays to Self to take out Deanna’s toaster and the alternator on her car)
You’re welcome, mortal! 😀
I remember hearing this Pastor saying there is nothing the devil fears more than a Christian on their knees praying .. it’s amazing how grown adults buy into this sort of thing.
“I don’t have time to read your story now,” but she sure as hell has time to stop and compose an email trying to Set You Straight.
These people make me tired.
Thank you for your reply, I see your lack of interest in the core subject. I trust you are well versed at logic and you already know the name for that type fallacy that avoids the true question. That’s ok. You own this site and this is your hobby. Have a great day. PS I am doubting you are actually 90 years old. 🤷♀️
Deanna,
What I know is made clear in my post. Interesting that you ignored my critique of your behavior, lack of interest in knowing my story, and your seeming inability to understand the post in question was a political/polemical piece.
You might want to ponder what your first comment says about your religion. Why is it Evangelicals have such a hard time checking their judgmentalism at the door? That’s a rhetorical question, by the way. Readers of this blog know the answer.
I said, “50 years [in the Christian church], longer than she has been alive.” I assume you are not 51 or older? Your gravatar is a picture of a young woman with young children. Not you? An ode to yesteryear? Simply put, you misinterpreted this statement. 😂 I looked at your Facebook profile. Older than your gravatar photo — still not 50. We actually might know someone in common. I’ll leave that one alone. 😂
My advice is this Deanna: “try harder.” What did you hope to accomplish by your comment? By lazily not taking the time to know your subject, you grossly erred in your judgment of me. Unfortunately, countless Evangelicals have come before you — advancing the cause of atheism.
What “true” question would you like to ask? Spit it out, Deanna. I am more than happy to talk with you about my story/Bible/Evangelical theology. Seek and ye shall find.
I see from the server logs that you couldn’t be bothered to read any of the posts I suggested to you. I “hear” you loud and clear.
Be well.
Bruce Gerencser
Let me put it in words you will understand.
Suppose I didn’t know you. I did a Google search on “homemade do it yourself” and it brought me to your DYI website. After reading one post on your site, I left a comment that said, “let me speak plainly. It’s evident you don’t know how to follow DYI instructions. Further, it’s evident that you are angry and someone has deeply hurt you. I know you are a committed Evangelical Christian, but I “sense” you want to leave Christianity and become an atheist.” Would that offend you, Deanna? What a judgmental prick, right?
Imagine if you responded to me and suggested that I read other posts written by you — thinking doing so would educate me about you. Imagine how you might feel when you found out I was too lazy (arrogant) to learn anything about you? What would you think of me?
Story time over.
I am so glad to be away from dismissive, judgmental, passive aggressive people like you. Try not being a Christian, the ironic thing you might find is that by not being a Christian, you become more Christ-like.
You just become you without all the hatred and bad attitude.
When Jesus teaches people how to live, he is more concerned with loving behaviour than legalistic judgementalism, note the people he opposes who are like that are the Pharisees. Western Evangelical Christians are consistently demonstrating a mindset and behaviour which is a long way away from the teachings and life of Christ.
Deanna you mention logic and logical fallacies. Religious belief, especially of the fundamental kind, doesn’t sit well with logic in the real world. In short, you should avoid taking venturing into the battlefield of logic. You’ll be hung out to dry.
DeAnna Van Zee: “You own this site and this is your hobby.”
Zoe: This is his site and this is his life.
Sage brought up something I’ve tried to make clear to students: You can’t answer of science with faith, or vice versa. If you believe, don’t expect the facts to confirm what you believe, or logic to conform to the way you came to believe—just as empirical facts and the knowledge we extrapolate from to validated by a belief in the divine inspiration of a text.
In reading about Deanna, I was reminded of all of those people who presume to know “why”’I’m transgender—or who arrogate unto themselves the authority that I’m not.
This is exactly what she does. As a non-binary person I encounter this often. Clearly they know significantly little about me or “why” I am this way. People like Deanna believe they beat way is their way, and it’s there job to bully others to live and think s they do.
Even the (allegedly) “ex-gay” Christian activists don’t have a unified explanation for why they “were” gay to begin with, apart from the usual “God’s will” or “this is a test”. This is especially true for the newest crop of “ex-gays” and “celibate same-sex-attracted Christians” post-Exodus’ demise.
After all, their proposed causes for queerness (lack of good parental figures, childhood molestation, indwelling unclean spirit, wounded masculinity/femininity, etc.) are also found in the straight cis population in great abundance.
But the strange thing is, a lot of people seem to think they’re experts despite having no first hand experience or exposure to the matter at hand.
Kel—That is one reason why I was reluctant to talk about being sexually abused by a priest when I was an altar boy in the late 1960s—and why I’ve written about it only under a nom de plume. I was aware of the disconnect between the gender I was assigned at birth and what I knew within myself long before the abuse—or, in fact, before I knew the words “boy” and “girl.”
Talk to most fundies, though, and they’d say that I’m choosing sin or that Satan is dwelling within me.
MJ, I am really really sorry to hear that.
I watched a documentary about the survivors of the priestly sexual abuse and it was completely heartbreaking. And some people – if they can be called “people” – still have the guts to blame the victims. Dear heavens, fetch the millstone!
Indeed, as if a sane person would ever choose to be persecuted for the sin of “existing”. I also believe that, for a lot of these people, it has to be a “choice” because deep down they realise that had it been involuntary and immutable, it would cast a doubt on the omnibenevolence of God. (Not a problem for a strict Calvinist though, since God supposedly “formed the wicked for the day of calamity”. Deep sigh)
I do hope you’re in a better place now.
P.S. I really like your guest posts on Bruce’s blog too.
Kel: “Dear heavens, fetch the millstone!”
Zoe: By highlighting this phrase I hope I can remember it. Very useful.
I don’t have time to read your story or learn about you personally but I really do care about your salvation and the state of your eternal soul. Really! That matters a lot to me–oops, sorry, gotta go, I have stuff to do that is not actually learning the First Damn Thing about your life and your experience.
Mindboggling.