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Was Fundamentalist Pastor Bruce Gerencser Mentally Ill?

bruce gerencser 1991
Bruce Gerencser, 1991, Somerset Baptist Academy. Surely everyone can see from this picture that I was a real Christian.

Telling my story often leads people to surmise that they only way someone could believe and behave as I did was to be mentally ill; that nobody in his right mind would live as I did; that only a crazy person would stand on a street corner and preach at passersby; that only a lunatic would sacrifice his life and that of his family to a non-existent God. Dismissing these things with the wave of a Freudian hand is far too easy, and it allows non-Christians to avoid thinking about how their own behavior might be deemed mental illness by those who do not have their beliefs. For example, countless people believe that essential oils can cure all sorts of diseases, as can chiropractic care. Evangelists from the First Church of Essential Oils and First Subluxation Church of the Spine use blogs, social media, newspapers, and face-to-face encounters to preach their gospel, hoping to convert people to their respective religions. The same could be said about homeopathy, iridology, acupuncture, and herbal cancer cures. Consider also that many political systems of thought, much like Christian Fundamentalists, demand fidelity, purity, and obedience. And we must not forget the God-above-all-Gods, American sports — particularly football and basketball. Spend some time around people whose lives revolve around this or that sports team, and it’s hard not to conclude that these people are delusional members of a cult. Yet, all of these beliefs and behaviors EXCEPT Christian Fundamentalism are considered “normal.” Why is that?

It is not helpful to lazily attach the “mentally ill” label to all Christian Fundamentalists. Now, that’s not to say that some Christian Fundamentalists aren’t mentally ill — they are. What troubles me is when non-Fundamentalists look at Evangelical beliefs and practices and conclude that only insane people would believe and live that way. This is a patently false conclusion. We must either conclude that all humans — yes you — have, to some degree or the other, a mental imbalance, or there are other explanations for why all of us believe and practice the things we do. I would posit that we humans are complex creatures, and our ways of life are shaped, molded, and controlled by our genetics, parents, childhood, environment, economic status, physical health, social strata, and a host of other exposures and variations. Thus, when someone reads one or more of my blog posts — say, posts such as My Life as a Street Preacher, I Did It For You Jesus: Crank Windows and Vinyl Floor Mats, and How the IFB Church Turned My Wife Into a Martyr — without thoughtfully and humbly considering the variables mentioned above, they will not come to a reasoned conclusion.

Part of the problem is that each of us has our own definition of “normal,” and we use that definition as the standard by which we judge the beliefs and practices of others. We rarely ask who it was (God?) that made us the “normal” police or why our standard of normality should be the inerrant, infallible rule (get my point now?) by which we determine whether someone is mentally ill or has a “screw loose.” Atheists love to say “each to his own,” except for religion, of course. Fundamentalists, in particular, have heaped upon their heads by atheists judgment and derision, without atheists making any attempt to understand. No need, many atheists say. Fundamentalists are delusional nut jobs — end of story.

Much of my writing focuses on my past life as a Fundamentalist Christian, especially the twenty-five years I spent pastoring Evangelical churches. I have willingly and openly chosen to be honest about my past, including my beliefs and behaviors. In doing so, I hope my story brings encouragement and understanding, and that doubting Christians or ex-Evangelicals might see that there is life after Jesus. What I don’t want my writing to be is exercises for non-Christians, ex-Christians, liberal Christians, or atheists to practice armchair psychology. Psychoanalyzing me — past and present — is best left to my counselor. Whether I was, in the past, mentally ill is impossible to know. I’m more inclined to think that my past is a reflection of someone who sincerely and resolutely believed certain things, little different from the countless other beliefs embraced by humans.

I have suffered with depression most of my adult life. The reasons for my struggle are many. Certainly, religion plays a part, but I would never say that the blame for my depression rests with Christianity alone. Again, I am a complex being, and the “whys” of my life are many. I left Christianity ten years ago. I pastored my last church fifteen years ago. Yet, here I am long removed from God, Jesus, the church, and all of trappings of Christianity and I still battle depression. Why is that? If Christianity is the root of psychological difficulties, one would think that I would have regained mental health once I was freed from my marriage to Jesus. However, that hasn’t proved to be the case. I have learned that depression can affect believer and unbeliever alike.

I hope readers will see my writing as an opportunity to understand, and not judge. When the day comes that I feel that that is no longer the case, I will have written my last blog post.

About Bruce Gerencser

Bruce Gerencser, 60, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 39 years. He and his wife have six grown children and eleven grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist. For more information about Bruce, please read the About page.

Bruce is a local photography business owner, operating Defiance County Photo out of his home. If you live in Northwest Ohio and would like to hire Bruce, please email him.

Thank you for reading this post. Please share your thoughts in the comment section. If you are a first-time commenter, please read the commenting policy before wowing readers with your words. All first-time comments are moderated. If you would like to contact Bruce directly, please use the contact form to do so.

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  1. Avatar

    It’s nearly impossible to escape lifetime conditioning. I was raised in churches from infancy and believed everything they told me. That’s not mental illness, that’s brainwashing. Getting past that and finding truth is difficult.

    I’m really glad you are willing to write about your feelings and your journey. From actually admitting to everyone that you no longer believe to explaining everything you can about it and how it’s affected your life takes far more courage than I have, as I haven’t told most people I know that I no longer believe. Too scary for me.

    Maybe *that’s* mental illness?

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    Becky Wiren

    I think you write with clarity and honesty. I don’t think you are mentally ill at all. And you are still ministering to those of us who can no longer be a conservative/fundy/evangelical Christian.

    I’m not even sure what mental illness is anymore. Don’t we all have something? 🙂

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    Pastor Disaster

    What a beautifully honest post, Bruce. I loved this one.

    The thing that always bugs me about leaving the church and disavowing the god of my forefathers is that those outside the church can be just as dogmatic as those in the church. It’s like it’s almost expected to abandon one set of doctrines and embrace another, less metaphysical set in their place.

    I mean: If I disavow the fundie god of my childhood I’m often expected to become an “atheist” with nothing inbetween… you’re either a “fundie” or an “atheist.” Period.

    I could be nuts… but I’m pretty sure that there just may be some transitional points of belief inbetween.

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    I was a psychology major so i think everyone is mentaly ill, especially myself :-). Seriously, though, I am sorry if I gave the impression I thought you were mentally ill. I thonk my commentbon a previous post that i had blythely assumed the zealous street preacjers in NYC wete memtally may jabe started something, and that wasn’t the intention.

    I have seen something interesting though about certain personalities in different groups I have been in. A few years ago I started exploring Paleo diet when that came out. It seemed interesting though it made wild claims about how it coukd cure a plethora of diseases from acne to diabetes to fibromyalgia to MS (of course it doesn’t but it can help people make better food choices if they weren’t prior). Many of the founders of this have dialed back their claims and changed a few things in recent years, with some prominent folks dropping the term Paleo altogether. Anyway, I did this Whole30 elimination diet in which you give up grains, beans, rice, corn, dairy, alcohol, and added sugar for 30 days after which you do controlled reintroduction to find what foods irritate your system. The toxicity, meanness, and legalism of some folks in the online forums reminded me of some of the worst in fundamentalist Christianity. If someone said they accidentally ate salad dressing that their sister put honey in, trolls would jump in and tell them they failed and had to start over. It was like people were treating diet as a religion. It was interesting and eye opening to see this behavior ooutside religion.

    In obstacle racing I see similar behavior. In Spartan race, if you fail an obstacle, you do 30 burpees as penalty. It is unmonitored except for elite athletes. But invariably someone will go on social media and excoriate someone for not doing all 30 burpees and finishing in 1214 place to the complainer’s 1215 and calling him a cheater. That behavior isn’t mental illness.

    I think that certain personalities are drawn to certain environments. And of course, we are a combination of how, where, in what circumstances we were raised interacting with our innate personalities. Certain people are apt to cause a ruckus in a church, in a food group, in a fitness group, in an art group, anywhere. Others won’t. Some of those people will recognize that they are going over the top and will correct themselves, others won’t.

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      Speaking of diets, the many of the vegan crowd are nuts. No, not mentally ill but definitely nuts. The 80-10-10 raw foodies take this to a whole other level. I do think people have a basic longing to be part of something, not matter how extreme. At this point in life, I avoid extremes, however.

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    I dont believe Bruce was mentall ill , just consumed with zeal for his cause. When my brother and I were into drag racing cars there were people there whose lives were consumed with racing. They would spend all their income and go into debt to race. All there time and social relations revoled around racing. It was like a cultish club.I new guys whose wives gave birth while they were at the track. I think its some weird trait of humanity to want to belong to something bigger than themselves, to have a label and be part of a group whether it’s religious or secular.

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    Yes, I have found that many people who adhere to elimination diets can be extreme. I came to understand that what works great for one may not work for another.

    And yes, we do like to find am in group, some group with which we can identify and participate. It can take a variety of forms, including but not limited to religion, nationalism, sport team, university, fitness, collecting items, entertainment…..the list goes on and on. Sometimes we can let that identity take over our lives to the exclusion of other aspects like family. There is nothing wrong with obstacle racing (my passion right now) but if I took off every weekend traveling around the world to race and/or train, I would be light in the wallet and miss out on time with my family. So I pick and choose my races, sometimes incorporating them into a family trip that we can all enjoy.

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    Mary Cox

    In defense of chiropractic care, around eight years ago I developed burning bursitis in my hips. It made it difficult to sleep and was a constant annoyance. I tried steroid shots and meds, but they provided little relief. I decided to try a chiropractor and continue to go once a month. My hips are so much better. I no longer need injections or meds. Chiropractic has helped with my other pain areas also. It doesn’t cure my arthritis, but it does keep the pain down to a more manageable level.

    As far as mental illness goes, I believe my mental illness lead me into fundamentalist religion. I was looking for answers and health, but what I found was a replication of my family life with a domineering, authoritarian father who was impossible to please. Patriarchy has infected every aspect of my life. We are tribal creatures by nature and long to belong. I think if we understand that it will help us to choose more wisely what groups and activities we swear our allegiance to. I avoid groups because I tend to lose myself in them and they invariably seem to be lead by the least competent person in the group. I suppose we’re all looking for some sort of meaning and purpose in a crazy, mixed up world. Perhaps Solomon put it best when he said (paraphrasing) that we should eat, drink and enjoy the works of our hands all the (meaningless) days of our lives.

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      Hi Mary, I have also had glorious results with chiropractic care but I think Bruce was focussing on it being the be all and end all. He will correct me if I am wrong but he used the word cure. No chiropractor says they will cure. They speak of adjusting the body to be better able to help itself, as I understand the various practitioners I have visited.
      As for mental illness, my experience was similar to yours. Your choice of the word ‘replication’ is very apt to describe what I remember of my family life too and how the tool of religion just fit like a glove.
      Bruce, your opening lines of this blog suggest to me that you have a pejorative attitude towards mental illness and that you perhaps feel ashamed. It is my observation that a good deal of the population has some imbalance in their lives and I call that illness, not just personality or individuality. I think suggesting we are complex and so forth sidesteps the fact that we are not well with the world for reasons. If you are suggesting to me that you see yourself as perfectly healthy in your street-preaching days and that your inability to perceive how shockingly insensitive it was to put your boy on the sidewalk with you, then we will just have to leave it at that, a disagreement. I do not believe we are born bad and mean-hearted but it seems to me that you might be suggesting that the harm you were doing was normal and healthy, was just your personality. Is it just fine to treat children like that? And what is termed ‘normal’ sometimes is hardly something to admire: It was not long ago perfectly fine to assault children but it was never right.
      I am mentally ill and aspire to a fuller life in therapy, not normality. Some depression is a natural response to life but enduring depression is mental illness and I am content with myself for looking after it by therapy and using meds if needed sometimes. I said you were clearly mentally ill in street-preaching and that was a failure of judgement. You found it hurtful and dismissive. I think I cannot ever recall wanting to dismiss you. I respect you and listen carefully to your words. I don’t think of you as normal at all but someone quite unique. Again I am sorry to have made you feel bad by using the term.

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        Bruce Gerencser

        I have seen a chiropractor numerous times over the years. My thinking on their treatment has changed over the years. I would see one for a specific back problem, but not for anything else.

        My concern is with the term “mentally ill” or “mental illness” being lazily used to avoid truly understanding what made a person the way he is today. It is not uncommon for atheists to use these phrases as a way to dismiss religious people — especially Evangelicals — out of hand. Humans are complex beings, and if we truly want to understand people we must see life from their perspective. For some atheists, doing so is problematic because they have never been religious or they were, at one time, members of non-Evangelical sects.

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    I think that high demand groups fulfill a certain need for some folks to have a certain level of order to their lives and some also answer a pull toward asceticism. These are basic needs that some people feel. Does it make them mentally ill? I’m not sure. It’s a case by case thing, does it prevent their function to fulfill other basic needs? Are they imposing it on others? If so, maybe it’s dysfunction.

    Chiropractic care? Well that’s thorny, can it help back pain? It depends on the cause. If the Claims are that it can cure ear infections, erectile dysfunction and the common cold? I’m out of here! Noping away into the sunset! Nope no, grumpy cat no!

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    Mentally Ill? I am certified. Certified by a Drs Bible, the DSM of Psychology, a book that funnily “EXCLUDES” people of religion, their talking to Jesus or faith in miracles..etc.

    I am a UFO abductee. Try and think just how hard that is to claim in a Society that outright denies UFOs. What people may not know, is many of us abductees, torn apart by it all, and suffering PTSD , actually willingly go to a Psyche and hope for a diagnosis of a disorder. We would actually prefer to be afflicted by a mental illness…..because then there is a rational, societal accepted reason for our apparent “Delusion”.
    Unfortuneately, many of us leave told we are perfectly sane… medication for cure……..and it was just sleep paralysis combined with a nightmare! ,,,,,,Dont explain that scoop-mark on my leg though,does it?

    The 1st quack diagnosed Bi-Polar. Yes, I had all the depression, but never manic flights of fancy or granduer, or bouts of mania. I just thought my natural hyper-activity at work was this manic side……

    The 2nd quack diagnosed me as “Delusional”. Would not look at all my evidence, even had video evidence of the multiple calls to the police station that night, and the Snr Sgt describing it all. Nope! I was labelled Delusional….but still does not explain that scoop-mark on my leg. (see OZ ENCOUNTERS….a TV doco on Aussie UFO events) A show I saw 16yrs after the event when researching it all, once I had a laptop.(it confirmed my encounter with multiple witnesses)

    I ended going to a Self-Help Abductee group, set up by us abductees ourselves. That helped. Just having people share their experiences was help, and these were sane people… even a respected senior business woman, too scared to tell her husband…..and her intergenerational abductee story….Her mother> She the Grandmother> the daughter> and the granddaughters. Once we had a meeting in a caf’e garden… would not believe the amount of total strangers, overhearing our talks, came up and told of their UFO sighting etc….all too scared to mention it normally, but inspired to tell us “Delusional Crazies”…..complete strangers but empowred to finally speak.

    If I mention this on the net, I am attacked…..”Had your meds today?”…”Which assylum did you escape from?” …”Cognitive Dissonance?”……so I know all about mental-illness and slander.

    In fact, it was Aliens=Demons, posted on many Christian sites, that I went to church and the Bible looking for answers. Unfortuneately, I found UFOs in the Bible, then the Sumerian Gods, then conspiracy theorys……..

    I know I come over as a “Lunatic Conspiracy Theorist”, but I only mention things that I have researched deeply.
    The Jesuit infiltration of Protestant Denominations. Unfortuneately, that is true of Victory Life …others?
    Sumerian Gods?……True, NERGAL is mentioned in KINGS. Cunieform tablets, statues/carvings etc.
    UFOs ?…….True. I cant tell you all of the number of realistic videos that appear. When I go back for a 2nd look, “This Video Does Not Exist”…..funny, it was there yesterday! Dome of the Rock UFO is the best I can recommend…..and funnily right over the place where JESUS ascended to heaven….coincidence?

    ? UFOs and Sumerian Gods(Ancient Astronaut Theory) are labelled as Conspiracy Theorys. The reason why, is because of the threat they pose to the Bible!

    All I ask, is people read my alternative explanations. “33 CONSPIRACYS PROVEN TRUE” should answer dissenters, that outright deny conspiracys. WMDs in Iraq, should tell us all that those in charge will lie for a purpose.

    * I was not diagnosed with PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, because then the psyche would have to put pen to paper, and actually write UFO abduction as the cause of the trauma. Silence is a form of denial.

    It seems , if you dont believe or have faith in the Bible, by default, one automatically becomes an Atheist. There is a 3rd alternative……..and Sumerian Gods explains the origin of the Biblical storys of the OT.

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    deano, It seems to me silly to insist that we occupy this vast universe alone and that there is no possibility of other beings out there somewhere. I have not encountered any and so prefer to take an agnostic view. You insist that you have been abducted and of course that may well be so and I am sure that as far as ‘crazy’ goes, I could assign the term more readily to many fanatical sports fans than to you but one must ask why you would choose to attach your personal abduction experience to the Bible and Christianity? What is the point of it here on a blog about belief and non-belief?
    Is it just to parallel and if so, don’t you feel that using a book of plasticine tales to lend credence to your own experience is reaching a bit far?

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    Gday Brian. Thanks for your interest. As you know, the whole topic of UFOs is taboo and in the mainstream take Denied…..they dont exist! So what happened to me? The thought of Hypnosis is just too traumatizing to even contemplate….and I feel it would set me back way too much.
    I was now on the search for answers! There isnt any! Only versions similar to mine, and the “Greys” description as the occupants is all we have from on-board recollections….

    Scouring the net for answers, especially in abduction storys, the Christians claim that ALIENS=DEMONS, and saying the name “Jesus” will ward them off. Seriously, this is the Christian claim! I also saw articles of UFOs in the Bible> Ezekials Wheels, Elijahs whirlwind, Chariots of fire, etc.
    Although agnostic, I thought I better look into this Biblical link and Christian Jesus claim so I went to the local Victory Life Church, and got my Bible. The 1st contradiction is on the 1st page….GEN 26, followed by GEN 27.
    “Let US go down and make man in OUR own image” Vs “So god made man in his own image”
    Who was US? Go down from where? So, with laptop ready I punched in GEN 26, but then they say the original Hebrew said ELOHIM(plural)….Who are the Elohim?….and so it began, a long, detailed search, for any reference or term or verse that queried me…..and the name Zecariah Sitchin kept cropping up. That is when I realized I would have to read his books to get the truth I was seeking…..and I did….the Elohim = Sumerian Gods.
    But of course, there is a whole website called “Sitchin is WRONG!”, written by Michael S Heiser, a Christian expert.

    I cant stress enough about this. The main attackers of AA theory, are devout Christians, or PhD Uni experts,
    Then I found the “THE ARK BEFORE NOAH” by Irving Finkel, head of cunieform at British Museum. Basically, all the names and terms Sitchin used, were confirmed by him….the worlds leading expert on cunieform……and not some Christian author/uni phd holder from Wisconsin. So the Sumerian Gods were true, the flood did happen, I just had to accept Sitchins Ancient Astronaut claim ….they could fly in space! Everything else I checked like Nazca Lines was all evident, so I had faith in Sitchin.

    In the Descent to the Lowerworld, a Sumerian myth, it actually describes creatures made by Enki to rescue Inanna.
    Did Enki make the Greys?……maybe, if he tweaked the DNA of a homind. Or, maybe the Greys are the creators, and made the Elohim as leaders to teach……I dont know.

    Why here? I actually found this site doing some more Psychology research and found the mentally-ill link to Christians (DSM excludes religious delusions), came for a look, and immediately liked Bruce’s style and demeanor. But I dont like this Christian Vs Atheist thing. It seems Atheist, by default, is automatically what one becomes if they dont believe the Bible. No, there is Pagan Gods. Forget Roman & Greek, I am talking Egyption & Sumerian. And since Abraham came from UR in Sumeria, these gods are obviously relevant to the OT….and they are!

    Just because the monotheistic god of the OT and jesus are unbelievable, that doesnt mean all other gods must be unbelievable too. In fact NERGAL, is named correctly in the OT, and everyone forgets Amen-RA of Egypt, the god Amun. These are the words of the Amen, the ruler of gods creation>Egypt.(REV 3;14)
    I dont worship or pray to these ancient gods, they were advanced humans, not omnipresent. But at the present time, it is this theory that rings true for me, and explains ancient space travel, and knowledge of astronomy.
    They have gone back to Nibiru, or are dead. But have left much archaelogical evidence here…Ancient Aliens shows much of it. Ancient Aliens-DEBUNKED, another Christian attack by Chris White.

    All I am trying to say, is Christians Vs Atheist Vs Pagan gods/Sumerian gods/ Ancient Astronauts….there is another alternative. In many blogs, Bruce admits that if anything, Polytheism is turned into Monotheism in the OT.

    So UFO abduction >>>belief in UFOs >>>research the OT >>>> AA theory and belief in Sumerian gods>>>.Christian + Uni experts attack anything that opposes the Bible.(fundamentalists)

    Have you seen the “DOME OF THE ROCK UFO 2011” ? I feel a UFO over the most holy place on earth, the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, is highly relevant, especially to the term “Watchers”(fallen angels/IGIGI) ,,,,,,and this is the place where Jesus apparently ascended to heaven, and Mohammad.
    * Look for reflection on dome. The fake FOX Mississippi video, with no reflection, and no moving cars in foreground, is the hoax quickly made so the whole event was labelled a hoax. Right there is evidence of both UFOs, and how they hide/cover up or label hoax.
    Sorry i went on, but I feel it is all highly relevant…..especially when we have these fundamentalists pushing for the return of Christ in this very location. Thanks for accepting my beliefs & respecting the possibility of UFOs.

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      Thanks for the note, deano. Regarding the trauma of your experience, I would say that s.taying true to your feelings, your deepest feelings about it is really the only ‘cure’; not really a cure at all but there is no illness, right? It is not easy to suffer something alone but staying true to yourself is the way forward. Christianity wants us to become untrue to oursleves and admit that we are born in evil, that a virgin gave birth, that a man rose from death. Once we have agreed to this belief, we have turned away from our natural selves and and said yes to abdication of reason and basic intelligence. We have agreed that a feeling we want is worth self-harm just as an addict going out to score dope to feel good unto death…

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    Thanks for your kind and supportive words Brian. Yes, I felt very alone, at times an “alien” in this society. Doubting your own sanity “Did it happen? What happened? Why me? ” led to severe depression, and cant even talk about it for fear of being locked up in an asylum. The Christian take on it, of course led to fear. Compounded, by the human fear of the unknown……..there is that “Fear Factor” again!

    How true! Truth is paramount! “staying true to oneself”…..what a pity we live in the Jesuit Society of Jesus, where LIEs rule to cover up more LIES (Bible). Thanks Christians, You have made me the ultimate “TRUTHSEEKER” from Hell. !!! lol

    eg > Demons/fallen angels?…..a Daemon, is just Greek for a ‘god” (good or evil). The Sumerian name was IGIGI.
    This went to greek ‘egregoroi”, which in latin, GRIGORI. The GRIGORI has become the fallen angels….”Watchers”.(the angels, messengers, malaak of the Bible)…….a perfect example of lost in transliteration!

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    “If a man looks at the world when he is 50 the same way he looked at it when he was 20 and it hasn’t changed, then be has wasted 30 years of his life,” Muhammad Ali

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    My take, both as to conspiracy theories and alien abductions is that I believe neither. I suppose there may be examples of very limited conspiracies, involving a small number of people who are so threatened by exposure that the secret is maintained, but they must be very few indeed. The more far flung theories, the types that claim the moon landings were faked, or the twin towers was a government plot, or that there’s a Jesuit plot to rule the world, or that there’s an ‘illuminati’ have got to be rubbish. There’s simply no conceivable way that a secret involving the numbers of people who would have to be involved could possibly avoid being leaked; completely impossible.

    As for alien abductions, it’s interesting that they weren’t really claimed until the 1950s, when space travel began and serious science fiction films began to come out of Hollywood. I don’t believe there are alien based UFOs because there’s no compelling evidence in support of them. In any event, such aliens would face exactly the same physical restraints on interstellar travel that we face and, even were they successfully to address those issues by virtue of their superior technology, what on earth are they doing! Hanging out invisibly in space, just waiting to magically transport unsuspecting humans to their ship, only to be transported back without anybody noticing?

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    Gday GeoffT. This whole website, its aim, its evidence,its personal storys, is about breaking free from indoctrinated beliefs. The deconversion of many fundies, has been because they looked out of their “Box”, by actually reading what the “Atheist Box” says, some Hitchens, some Dawkins, for Bruce it was Ehrman. Doubts were confirmed.

    All I ask, is you look at the CT Box, “33 CONSPIRACYS PROVEN TRUE”, a good place to start. How short our memorys all can be……”Watergate”, is a perfect example of a President using FBI,CIA,IRS, to try and cover-up secrets.
    Operation Northwoods Sec 8a+ b, is evidence of a CIA plan in the 60s of a 9/11 type event to justify a war….
    Operation Mockingbird, is evidence of the CIA infiltration of ALL media, to control/influence the mainstream narrative.
    Only recently, has the US govt admitted the existence of Area 51….for yrs assigned to “Conspiracy Theorists”.

    The problem Geoff, is they have “muddied the waters”. Just because I believe in some CTs, doesnt mean I believe in ALL CTs! Flat Earthers, or Reptillian Overlords are complete garbage, deliberately placed to make anyone think that ALL CTs are a load of bunk. One must look at all the data & evidence-how,why,who,when, and who benefits? In many cases, it is what they are NOT saying(silence is denial), or , look at what the opposing side is saying(the other box). eg>9/11.
    Notice that many are science, or lets say “Athiest” people. Engineers, Pilots, Architects, Physics & Chemistry experts, or just plain and simple “Truthers”….relatives, fireman and police and ambulance and actuall eyewitnesses, all talking of “explosions”…….WTC 7 fell without a plane even hitting it for fuck sake. Enough said. Everyone should do their own research. “A new Pearl Harbor to justify Islamic Crusade” makes a lot more sense……..and Bush Jr even admitted as such…..”God Bless America”. Sorry, I dont trust Trump, Guiliani,Silverstien or mainstream media.

    As for alien abductions…..well, (i am not here promoting a book), so as an abductee, what is my take on it? Yes, I am fully aware of your ‘rational claims’. The 1950s? Sorry, it was WW2 and the “Foo Fighters”. Pilots! And WW2 saw our first use of Atomic weapons, and Roswell – 1947, is where the 1st Atomic Bomber Squadron was based. Area 51, an actuall atomic test area. Many in the “Disclosure” movement are actuall “Missile Silo Commanders”, who state their weapons were “shut down” with UFO appearances……..mmmm?
    I feel they are here on Earth. Underground, and under the Oceans, and not to impressed that they could be affected by Nuclear Armageddon as well, its their home too. The recent “Pentagon Disclosure”, also has the Nimitz pilots talking of their “ocean location”……(my father in the Merchant Marine also witnessed one exiting the ocean).

    Clones? Hybrids? (yes, the women in my abductee group talked of Alien-Human Hybrids)………try this >>>>>>
    In Ancient Astronaut Theory, the Sumerian “God/scientist” and “godess/doctor” created humans, Adamu, by tweaking the DNA of an early ape-like hominid circa 200 000yrs ago in South Africa (see Mitochondrial Eve as todays evidence for this). Was Neanderthal a Mk 1 version?
    If they could do this, its plausible that they could make a “grey”(a small hominid clone). Since these “Sumerian Gods” have left earth, maybe these Greys and UFOs are the “Watchers”, left here to watch our progress, but curious of our reproduction …they cant , they are clones. As not to alarm and panic us , they do these genetic sampling activities, in a covert manner (at night & using “cloaked” vehicles)….our memorys wiped. Dont forget, we too can travel in space and can DNA clone for the last 30yrs (think Space shuttles & Dolly the Sheep).
    ** Note! This is my personal take. I have not seen this anywhere…..I have merely looked at ALL the data, and tried to make a “Scientific Hypothesis” that fits all the details. Cattle mutilations also point to their interest in organs,blood and DNA type experiments…..(food for the Hybrids? the Greys like ‘cow tongue”? lol:)

    Sounds crazy? Less crazy than an ominpresent god creating things by the “word”, or making Adam from dust, or Eve from Adam’s rib.
    JESUIT RULE OF EVERYTHING ? See the “Jesuit Oath”. It actually states , to infiltrate the Protestant Church and pretend to be a Protestant, Liberal govts & pretend to be Liberal, to infiltrate the enemy and pretend alliance….any means to justify the ends…..for the Society of Jesus. CIA=Catholic Infiltration Agency….control of military, govts and why there is COVER-UPs and UFO denial……….Assange and Wikileaks , the whistleblowers silenced……JFK silenced.

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    Deano, I wish you well and don’t really want to dissuade you from your, let’s say, ‘unconventional’ beliefs.

    Did you know that there’s a conspiracy theory involving the Titanic, in which it’s claimed that its sister ship, the Olympic, was swapped surreptitiously with the Titanic in a gigantic insurance fraud sponsored by JP Morgan? A great story, perfect for a book by the likes of Dan Brown, but real life practicalities! How many people would have to be involved, not just high ranking bankers, or Jesuits, but ordinary working people? Think of the supply logistics. Where were two ships, the largest in the world, hidden whilst refitting took place? Did nobody notice?

    Now, of course, you’d probably draw the line at this and say you don’t believe it either because, quite plainly, it’s a totally insane claim. Yet the fact is there are many who do believe it, in the same way that your theories can appear to be supported by looking only at small, selective, bits of evidence. None of your theories fit the ‘big’ evidence, little different from saying Jesus was resurrected from the dead because how else was the stone moved, when we can’t even establish for certain that Jesus ever existed, never mind died on a cross.

    But, heyho, you fight the good fight…

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    Thank you GeoffT. I did say many CTs are there to muddy the waters… bring ALL CTs into doubt, and realms of fantasy of the delusional.

    I am curious , what is this ‘big’ evidence you refer to?

    If UFOs are real, then pilots, would be persons to confirm. They fly in their ‘domain’, and are trained to recognize all sky related factors (clouds,weather phenomonen, planets, other aircraft etc) and most are ex-military.

    CIRVIS Reports? Not a Service/maintenance report…..Communications Instructions Regarding Vital Intelligence Sightings…….this is how they cover-up airborne sightings. Pilots who fill these in, are basically ridiculed out of their employment. Fear of ridicule/credibilty and loss of income is just another “Fear” tool, and the main reason there is no ‘big’ evidence, or eye-witness testimony from trained experts , military pilots……in the interest of “National Security”.

    Isnt this site about Beliefs Vs non-belief ?…..its hard to BELIEVE anything, when one knows they are deliberately hiding ‘big’ evidence, and I have seen numerous UFO videos on the net one day, the next “THIS VIDEO DOES NOT EXIST”…..or “404 Error”.

    Thanks, yes, the good fight, for truth. AATheory Vs AATheory. Ancient Astronauts Vs “Anxious for Armageddon”

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