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Evangelicals and the Gay Closet: Is Ray Boltz Still a Christian?

ray boltz

Most Evangelicals believe that once a person is saved, he is always saved; that nothing can separate him from the love of God (Romans 8:31-39). This belief, of course, causes a real problem for Evangelicals when they hear about people who were once Evangelicals and lived according to Evangelical interpretations of the Bible, but no longer do so. I was a once-saved-always-saved Evangelical pastor for twenty- five years. My lifestyle was one of devotion to Jesus. The fruit of the Spirit was evident in my life (Galatians 5:22,23). No one, at the time, doubted I was a Christian. Today, I am an apostate; a false prophet; an atheist. My deconversion poses a real problem for Evangelicals. If I were truly saved, I am still saved. If I can’t fall from God’s grace, I still have it. No matter what I say or do, if Evangelicals are right, I am still a born-again Christian. Out of the will of God? Sure. Backslidden? Sure. Awaiting God’s chastisement? Sure. But, I’m still a Christian, nonetheless.

Of course, such thinking is unpalatable for many Evangelicals. They can’t bear to think that a blasphemer such as I am is still a Christian. They can’t stomach the thought of me being an atheist, yet still getting a mansion — albeit a much smaller one — in Heaven after I die. For these people, the answer to their queasiness is to say that I never was a Christian; that I was wolf in sheep’s clothing; that I was a Satanic angel of light. This line of thinking is ludicrous for the simple fact that everything I said and did from the age of fifteen to the age of fifty said to the world that I was an out and proud follower of Jesus Christ. And I was indeed. As a person who knew me quite well years ago said, “If Bruce wasn’t a Christian, nobody was!”

While queuing up some music to listen to today as I write, I came across several songs by Christian Contemporary Music (CCM) artist Ray Boltz. You might remember some of his signature songs: The Anchor Holds, Thank You, I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb.

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As a pastor, I found Boltz’s song, Thank You, quite helpful when I was doubting whether the work I was doing was making a difference. Boltz’s song reminded me that I would have to wait until I got to Heaven to see the fruit of my labor.

In 2005, Boltz retired from the Christian music industry and later divorced his wife. In 2008, Boltz came out of the closet and admitted he was gay. What follows is an interview Boltz gave about being gay and still being a Christian. Please take the time to listen to this video. Boltz is honest and open about his life, and is actually quite compassionate towards people who attack him for being gay.

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Boltz’s “testimony” poses a big problem for Evangelicals. Here’s a man who was loved, respected, and revered by Evangelicals, yet now he says he is gay. “How can this be?” Evangelicals wonder. “All those wonderful songs he wrote, yet he had “gay lust” in his heart the whole time! Stop! My head is hurting!” Evangelicals are forced to say either Boltz was never a Christian, or that he still is a Christian. Remember, most Evangelicals believe homosexuality to be a sign of a reprobate heart; that there is no such thing as a “gay” Christian; that there will be NO LGBTQ people in Heaven. This means, necessarily, that Boltz was NEVER a Christian — an absurd notion if there ever was one.

A 2018 Thought Co article titled, Christian Singer Ray Boltz Comes Out, Says He Lives a Normal Gay Life, details how many (most) Evangelicals view Boltz’s coming out:

Reactions from fans regarding Ray Boltz and this news has run the gamut of emotions. Some are heartbroken and feel like Boltz needs to pray harder and he will be cured of his homosexuality. Boltz did say in the article that he had been praying for change almost all of his life. “I basically lived an ‘ex-gay’ life—I read every book, I read all the scriptures they use, I did everything to try and change.”

Other fans view him as almost a victim of the devil’s lies, of society’s “everything’s good” attitude, of his own sin. Some fans look up to his decision to go public so that people can see that gay people can love and serve the Lord.

There are some that feel that his “giving in to the temptation of sin” and “succumbing to the homosexual lie” wipes out every shred of value that his music ever had in the world and that he should be “shunned from the body of Christ until he repents and changes his ways because he can not receive forgiveness until he actually repents from the sin.”

Boltz believes he is still a Christian, albeit one far from his Evangelical roots. He currently lives with his partner and attends a gay-affirming church in Florida.

Were you a Ray Boltz fan? Were you still a Christian when you heard about him saying he was gay? What was your response? Please share your thoughts in the comment section.

Note

Read Boltz’s New York Times interview about his post-Evangelical life.

About Bruce Gerencser

Bruce Gerencser, 61, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 40 years. He and his wife have six grown children and twelve grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist. For more information about Bruce, please read the About page.

Bruce is a local photography business owner, operating Defiance County Photo out of his home. If you live in Northwest Ohio and would like to hire Bruce, please email him.

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133 Comments

  1. Avatar
    ObstacleChick

    I feel for him and for others like him who are shunned and judged and mistreated by the very church they loved. I used to fight with my mom about homosexuality – I was able to convince her that one cannot help to whom one is attracted, but I couldn’t get her past the idea that gay people should be able to have sexual relationships. The whole “no sex outside marriage” concept prevailed, and she passed away soon after same sex marriage was legalized nationally. It became a topic she refused to discuss with me anymore. I guess I pressed too hard on the idea of what kind of a God would create people to be gay and then forbid them from having sanctioned romantically loving relationships.

    • Avatar
      john gaither

      Sometimes it’s difficult to realize that feelings, and wants that we fell so strong about can be totally wrong! Sin at times can only be realized for what it is by it’s final results.

      A fallen mankind presumes that God made people shaped in sin, He didn’t , but being remade by Sin’s active measures to remake mankind into the Image of the Chief fallen Angel(Lucifer).The homosexual lifestyle can only bring death in it’s final conclusion, it can never breed life. Therefore it is parasitical because only persons of the natural male/female union can produce children.

      Otherworldly the Homosexual lifestyle have to steal naturally produce persons to have an relationship because their union cannot sustain their concept by themselves. Mr. Boltz is a Christian if the Savior called him, because he belongs to the list of Saints written in the Book of Life. He, like all of us must serve our Master while carrying our own personal Cross of Sin, and Yes Saints can live a of life of great sin.

      He will answer to the Savior for his faults as we have to do, whether sinner or saint.

      • Avatar
        J W

        John Gaither, the simpler, more reasonable explanation is that homophobia has nothing to do with God, but rather just the simple ignorance and prejudices of the ostensibly religious.

        You use words like “parasitical” or “naturally”, but seem to possess little actual knowledge of the natural world or the study of biology. Are you not aware that homosexuality has been observed countless times among other animals? By people who actually take the time and effort to study the natural world? That homosexuality is in fact entirely “natural”, despite attempts by people like you to abuse that word?

        Are you completely ignorant of the vast variety of different sexual and reproductive schemes used by plants and animals in nature? Have you not come across concepts such as hermaphroditism, gynandromorphism, asexual reproduction, or the like? Would your mind be completely blown by knowledge of such things? Or the fact that human beings are sometimes born possessing some of these characteristics as well? (For example, see: intersex)

        You speak of sin and God, but let me ask you this: why would I take the word on matters of God of someone who is completely ignorant of the natural world? Or worse, who is aware of such things and chooses to lie about it? Would that not lead one down the wrong path, assuming there even is such a thing as a valid path?

        Ignorance is not a virtue. Nor is taking the words–written or spoken–of human beings on blind faith alone. You can and are encouraged to investigate and double-check anything that I have written, too. Unless, of course, you’re the type who indulges in the sin of fearing the “worldly.”

    • Avatar
      John

      God don’t make guys sin does. In Romans chapter 1 Paul talks about sin of the gentiles in the last days and at the end of that chapter is say those that commit such sin will face God’s wrath.

      • Avatar
        Brian Vanderlip

        It ain’t the wrath of God I fear, John boy, it’s the ignorant wrath of men like you who would gladly harm me if some preacher said go do it. And your president too, his boundless ignorance with a Bible makes him fit in perfectly with people like you, so shallow in vision, so mean at heart.

  2. Avatar
    Dave O

    While earning my Bachelors degree at Ball State University in Muncie, Indiana (circa 1982 – 1986), I attended the same church Ray Boltz attended. I remember him singing the song “Thank You” for the congregation before it became a hit.

    He was an honest Christian, eager to serve the Lord with his music. My few interactions with him were positive and affirming and he encouraged me to seek the God of Truth.

    I cherished his music and his song “Seasons Change” is still my favorite ‘life song’.

    What surprised me when I learned Ray had come out of the closet was how he was instantly vilified by the very people who once looked up to him. I read so many blog posts that cast him and his music into the pit of hell because he was ‘now’ gay.

    What amazed me is that Ray Boltz did not wake up one morning and decide to become gay. All that music he wrote which become mainstream worship music was written and recorded while he was struggling over the fact he was gay and yet still drawn by God to serve Him when the church declared that that it is impossible to be gay and a Christian at the same time.

    After he came out, I came to understand that we as Evangelic Christians are some of the most unloving and judgmental people.

    I felt for him and defended him. Not because I knew him while at college but because we are Christians, who have the very nature of the God who is absolute love in our hearts, should extend to him love and support and not demonize him who we once worshiped beside.

    Do I still believe he is a Christian? Yes. He exhibits his desire to serve the Lord, even after all his ‘brothers and sisters’ proclaimed him apostate.

    • Avatar
      John Arthur

      Thank you for the compassion and kindness of your remarks about Ray Boltz and that you see him as a still being a genuine Christian.

      When my wife and I were attending an Evangelical church (several years ago now. I am now an atheist.), a young man in his thirties who was a very keen Christian came out. He received utter rejection from most of the members of the church. He committed suicide. I believe that the rejection by the so-called holy joes of the church once he came out drove him to end his life.

      I didn’t expect the church members to support same-sex marriage but I did hope that they would try to understand his position and show compassion and kindness towards the young man. He was no different a person after he “came out” than he was for the several years before he came out and for the long time that the church members knew him before he declared his same-sex orientation..

      • Avatar
        Jeremydega

        Hmm, now I know where you are coming from (an atheist). So, sorry for those who are struggling and groping in darkness, you are all victims of the wiles of the devil.
        The truth is this; Christianity is not a religion but a way of life that can only be lived by the Spirit of Christ Jesus. This is only possible when one gets the revelation of Jesus Christ and Him crucified to death, buried and raised back to Life all of his or her sake in order that he or she should have a new life in his or her mortal body ( ROM. 6). Simply put, Christianity is being possessed by the Spirit of Christ and allowing the Christ’s Life in you to be making use of your mortal body in order to be living His Life but through you.
        Man is a created being, his creator created him for HIS own purpose and not the “created’s” purpose. Believe it or not, when the creator decides man goes back to him. No human being can control that, and should you decide to argue, whatever points you may advance, when you close your eyes in death you shall definitely see yourself somewhere. The question is are we not suppose to be preparing ourselves for that place (whatever it may be).
        Surely there is a place to go after life on earth, God who is the creator, created human beings initially in His own IMAGE and LIKENESS, intending that out of all creatures, mankind should be like HIM, God, different from the rest. So, there is no bases comparing man with other animals (evolutionary theory has been proved wrong long ago). God has shown us His own stand on homosexuality and or gay or lesbianism and the likes; for these He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone, and would not hesitate in our own time and generation.

        Be that as it may, as Christians we are not to judge our fellow brethren but to pray with and for them. I know that the devil is always out to kill, steal and destroy, our brother Ray Bolts is but another victim of his. And so I pray:

        Oh Lord God, the devil has gotten one of us, he, Ray, is ever here with us struggling with the devil’s bondage, and we didn’t know. He has being struggling alone, and now he is tired of struggling thus has given in to the devil. Father have mercy on us, the body of Christ and rescue our brother Ray and several others who are in the net of the devil. All that even Ray himself wanted was to be delivered, we his brethren were not sensitive, we were carried away with your gifting over his life while he was all the while he was struggling all in his closet. We ought to be one another’s keeper but we have failed. Father, arise in mercy and rescue us from this onslaught of the devil, deliver Ray and all the others from this bondage. Thank you for hearing and answering as I pray in Jesus name. Amen.

        • Avatar
          Bruce Gerencser

          Sigh

          Jeremy says “as Christians we are not to judge our fellow brethren,” yet does just that.

          Jeremy says “ God has shown us His own stand on homosexuality and or gay or lesbianism…He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone, and would not hesitate in our own time and generation” yet God does nothing. Why is that? Evangelical Homophobes rage against Ray Boltz, yet God does nothing, despite their imprecations. Either God doesn’t exist or he is a-okay with LGBTQ people.

          • Avatar
            Brian Vanderlip

            Jeremy is John, George, Ringo, Roseanna-Roseanna Danna, Henry, Felicity and so forth…. meaning, Jeremy is nobody particular. The drivel he drools here is homogenized and has no human individual personality. He spouts words he has picked up as he shed his own skin and heart and brain to become an evangelical product, made most likely in USA. There seems nothing left of the man at all; he sounds exactly like so many dozens who pass this way, ghosts of themselves, Kool-aid salesmen going door to door. What was that guy’s name again? Gerber-me? Jeff? George?

        • Avatar
          ... Zoe ~

          Arrogance Jeremydega. You thank your God for hearing and answering your prayer assuming your second entity of the Holy Spirit will. Be sure to come back when you can provide evidence that Jesus delivered Ray.

          In the meantime, stay down there on your knees and pray for your own deliverance.

          • Avatar
            Bruce Gerencser

            Me thinks Jeremy might want to focus on his own sexuality. Rage against the gays because I can’t own my own sexuality due to my religious beliefs, is common among Evangelicals.

        • Avatar
          JW

          “He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone, and would not hesitate in our own time and generation.”

          First, that is a myth. There is no evidence of such a thing occurring outside the error-prone and fantastical writings of now long-dead people.

          Second, what you’re describing is an act of an Evil being, not something worth worshiping. You speak of railing against the devil, and yet you support and promote something so monstrous and vile.

          Third, you reveal your utter cowardice and lack of Virtue in not standing against such a thing. The only value you seem to espouse is saving your own hide from whatever bogeyman your pastor and their predecessors cooked up.

          There is nothing Heroic, Just, or Good about what you’ve written, Jeremydega. However, let me thank you all the same for reminding me that there are more than just logical reasons for rejecting such rubbish.

        • Avatar
          John Arthur

          Wow! What a screed! You assume that of the over 40,000 different views of Jesus floating around the Christian churches that yours is correct. A subjective experience of any Jesus is not objective evidence for his so-called resurrection.

          You also seem to assume that the bible is the Word of God but how can a book which has much of it written by barbaric, bloodthirsty, violent and ignorant savages be any Word of God? “Sin” is a religious construct and only because you believe that bible basher, Paul, can you say that the gentiles at the so-called “end times” (Romans 1 doesn’t even mention the “end times”) will homosexuality be a “sin”. Wasn’t homosexuality a “sin” in the first century as well? This use of the concept of “sin” only increases the bigotry of Christians.

  3. Avatar
    Tyler H

    I was a freshman in High School when I heard he was gay. I was a christian, and listened to nothing but christian music for years, sang in the choir at church, was really going places spiritually according to my church family at the time, and I believed it. I loved listening to Ray’s music, it really touched me. Especially “Thank You.” I cried many tears listening to that song. Little did Ray or anyone know, was that I was struggling with homosexuality in my own life. Hearing Ray’s story deeply touched me and solidified my decision to live my own authentic life. I decided that Love was the true message of God and that, even though I self identified as Christian, that I would no longer pretend to believe what most other christians believed. No longer would I be silent about who I am. Now, ten years later, even though I don’t consider myself christian (I identify as agnostic) I still believe that loving people no matter their beliefs, affiliations, sexual orientation or overall identity is the only “religion” worth following. I am completely out about my sexuality and partly because of Ray Boltz, I am completely happy. He is an inspiration to me.

  4. Avatar
    Jen

    I remember over the years my Evangelical friends and family absolutely vilifying any Christian entertainer who divorced or slipped up in any way, but coming at as gay was the worst sin of all. It fell into the Ephesians 5:12 category (“too shameful to even speak about”).

    That interview touched me. I’m so happy for Boltz and for those he inspires.

  5. Avatar
    Luke Steenkamp

    1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)

    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    Here is your answer Mr Bruce Gerencser…Truth and time go hand in hand…given time the truth will come out!

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      *sigh*

      Memo to Luke: maybe they didn’t continue because they didn’t want to associate any longer with arrogant, self-righteous, Bible verse barfing assholes. Look in the mirror and you will see one of the many reasons people deconvert.

      • Avatar
        Jim Barnhart

        I have discovered in life and in my walk with God that when challenged, the demon of the true root of sin within will come out. Your reply to Luke, Mr Gerencser, is a perfect example of that….Thanks for the confirmation of my belief….

        • Avatar
          Hugh D. Young

          I discovered that the vast majority of X-Chee-Ans were little demons in disguise. Puffed up with pride, ego ,and self righteousness, they sure war ship their Maggot Lord well on Sunday mornings, but are real insolent sons of bitches the rest of the week. It’s really a shame that so many of us have seen thru the SHAM innit, Jimbergh? Thanks for continuing to serve as a superb reminder of why I got the fuck out of Dojjj!

        • Avatar
          Bruce Gerencser

          Jim,

          You sent me the following in an email: “For your sake, Mr Gerencser, I really hope there is no hell.”

          You don’t really believe this. Hell justifies everything you believe, say, and do. It’s Hell that will one day prove to the Bruce Gerencsers of the world that Jim Barnhart was right and they were wrong. Without Hell, Evangelical churches would empty out tomorrow. Sorry, Jim, but you need Hell.

          The good news is that there is no Hell after death, nor is there Heaven. It is in this life alone we have Heaven and Hell. One of my goals as a writer is to encourage people to make this life as Heavenly as possible. How about you, Jim? Or are you with Luke, going from website to website preaching at former Christians, thinking you could possibly say anything we haven’t heard countless times before?

          I wish you well.

          Bruce

        • Avatar
          Brian Vanderlip

          “The demon of the true root of sin within…”
          Might be a phrase asked in the DSM as a question to ascertain the level of derangement exhibited by a subject far enough ‘gone’ to hear whatever he likes in whatever is said. Way to go Jim Barnhart!
          Question to the subject being assessed: Can you speak a little about the demon of the true root of sin within?
          Whoosh…

          • Avatar
            Bruce Gerencser

            I find it amazing how some Evangelicals refuse to accept Boltz as he is, choosing instead to demonize him. I suspect their behavior says more about their sexuality than it does his. So many repressed gays in Evangelicalism.

  6. Avatar
    c.plancon

    Friends, I am a 57 yr old “Christian” raised strongly Methodist in the deep south (so really raised with godly, not worldly intent) however I have learned after 4 wives (gasp) 5 children (gasp) and a dozen grand children, that I know nothing of Gods plan and if I did I am not strong enough to follow him of my own accord. I have many questions for Mr. Boltz, none derogatory, insensitive, or disrespectful, mine are questions of faith….of how this man, this human being, who “had it all, was at the top of his game” had the courage within and without to make that truly life changing revelation to his family, wife and world, knowing certainly that the “shame, mocking, and non-literal death” of his fame, fortune, career, would forever be altered and that, if one takes many christian ( but not christ like beliefs) points of view his soul be damned forever, what a human being, what a truly forgiven person it takes to amend all his former life by remembering…”We walk by faith, not by sight.” Mr. Boltz, if you happen upon this lowly testimony would you be kind enough to lend me your ear sir ? As for some other writers of comments, ” Who so ever among you is without sin cast the first stone” hmmmm?

  7. Avatar
    Brittany Green

    Mr. Gerencser,

    You asked Mr. Steemkamp what he thought, by,,”What are your thoughts?”. Also, being a part of a Christian is a follower of Christ, not our own opinions. He wasn’t even giving you his own opinions, but a tenet of the apostles, who were with Jesus himself, and went by what he said. As you may know, Scripture is the authority of a believer, and our thoughts would be what the Bible states.

    Usually, most atheists blame science for their deconversions. But, you say that it’s those who speak about God’s word? Well, there is truth to that. Matthew 13:20-21 states as much, and that is given by Jesus himself. John 8:31-32 says as much, too: in short, there is a difference between professing and true believers. Sure, eternal life is eternal: if you are a real believer. But, if not, well, 1 John 2:19 explains it.

    On another note: why should it matter to you? I mean, you stated that the Bible is just a scores of myths? What does it matter what an Evangelical thinks of you? If you consider Christianity to be such a constraint to quote Psalm 2, why worry about what you claim is nothing more than some mythological battering ram? Why care about what they think about your eternal fate? If your about to kick the bucket and croak in about 10 or 20 years on average, and be nothing more or less than just ecological material (dust) from rigor mortis, and there is nothing afterwards, why care? It’s not like any of these things have any form of existential value in your belief system: if nothing else is there, we are just pontificating time, especially if it’s just a superstition? If these are just myths, why even care to treat homosexuals morally? Ethically? I mean, if I believe in Classic Darwinian evolution, they are defective individuals that need to be exterminated, because they can’t naturally reproduce. But, even the strong survive ethic becomes null and void. Nihilism automatically gives way to atheism: for, if there is no lawgiver, there are no laws. But, laws do not come out of a vaccuum….so? Could there be a merit to what the Christian states? Is that why you are so anxious for their opinion?

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      *sigh*

      You are wrong about my reasons for divorcing Jesus. Please take the time to read the posts on the WHY? page if you really want to know why I deconverted. https://brucegerencser.net/why/ No need for you to continue on in ignorance.

      You comment shows that you know very little about atheism. Most atheists I know are also humanists, and it is humanism that gives them a moral and ethical framework to live by.

      After 12 years of mindless drivel and bullshit from Evangelical zealots such as you, I am not, in the least, “anxious” for the opinions of Christians. It’s been years since I have heard a unique, original, or new argument from a Christian. All I hear is the droning of a ceiling fan on a hot, humid July day. That’s why Evangelicals are given one opportunity to say whatever “God” has laid upon their hearts; one opportunity to put in a good word for the man, myth , and legend Jesus; one opportunity to back their Bible dump truck up to my door and dump a load of shit. You’ve had your opportunity, Brittany. I hope you said everything the Lord laid upon your precious little heart.

      Thank you for commenting.

      Bruce

        • Avatar
          ... Zoe ~

          If the devil is good at deceiving people Connie Williams, and there is a hell, and Bruce is deceived and therefore headed to hell . . . why is it that you hope God has mercy on Bruce when in fact you know/believe (apparently according to what you say here) that God will show no mercy.

          Why do you bother to say that at all?

          Is there some sort of hell spectrum, and somehow or other God arranges for some of the hell-bound, a wee bit of mercy as the flames consume them eternally?

        • Avatar
          Brian Vanderlip

          May Connie have mercy on Connie and not be duped into thinking she is some kind of helpless victim needing a magic source to save her. Evangelical religion is so good at harming people.

    • Avatar
      Hugh D. Young

      You know the #1 reason for MY deconversion? A ‘god’ who quite clearly showed me over an almost 8 year period that he quite obviously loved his AUTHORITY & RULES far more than he did PEOPLE. I wouldn’t obey, nor worship that fucking MONSTER if science proved he existed tomorrow!

      Anything else you’d like to share with the group since you’re obviously so smart, and seem to know it all…..or so you seem to think, anyway??

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      First, what does your comment have to do with this post?

      Second, you assume I have never “checked out” Francis Collins or Biologos. All these examples show is that smart people can and do believe/act irrationally. The majority of scientists do not believe in God. Why? Because that’s where the evidence leads. Francis Collins is a fine gentleman. I even like him. However, his attempt to wed Christianity with science fails miserably. I would argue that science and Christianity are incompatible — especially Evangelical Christianity. There’s no possible way to reconcile Evangelical faith and science without a hell of a lot of cognitive dissonance.

      If you have not done so, please read Jerry Coyne’s books: Why Evolution is True and Faith vs. Fact: Why Science and Religion are Incompatible.

      Thank you for commenting.

      Bruce

  8. Avatar
    Sam S

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to assume anything. Its just something I discovered recently that has made me rethink my own beliefs. I was an atheist for a long time, now I’m not so sure. I’ve always been a big fan of Ray, it is aggravating that he has been judged like he has.

  9. Avatar
    Ab

    Bruce, God loves you so much. You can’t even begin to imagine how much He loves you. Yh, I know it must have been very hard for you in your years as a Pastor. But I wish to challenge you Bruce. Since you have made your decision, there should be no stone left unturned so no matter what, you know the decision you have made is right and you don’t even have to defend yourself.
    I wish for you to put away all those customs and beliefs from church. And just take about 12 days and I want you to just try to read the bible and talk to this ‘God’ Believer’s believe in. Not because you believe in Him but you just want to leave no stone unturned. So just read the bible and talk to Him, and ask Him that if indeed He is real, He should reveal Himself unto you.
    Just do this for 12 days, and if nothing happens then you can boldly say that the God of believer’s is a fiction and be a proud atheist.

    • Avatar
      Hugh D. Young

      RIGHT…….Because ‘god’ loves us soooooooooo much, he created an eternal hell to send us to, just in case we decide we don’t love him back…..GOTCHA!! 🙂

    • Avatar
      John Arthur

      Ab,

      For those who believe in god or gods, did you know that you are likely to become like the god or gods you believe in? The God of Fundamentalism is a moral monster who is heartless and cruel because he burns people in hell forever with endless torture for finite “sins” committed in finite time by finite persons. He is completely unjust. He lacks a heart of compassion, tender mercy and loving-kindness. He commands his children to love their enemies but fails to do the same himself.
      He is one big hypocrite.

      The bible is one of the most barbaric books ever written. It was inspired by bloodthirsty, very violent and ignorant savages who created God in their own likeness. If you want people to treat one another with dignity, I suggest that you give up reading the bible and become a compassionate and caring humanist who loves other human beings.

  10. Avatar
    Bevy

    Since you admit to being an atheist and unbeliever why do you bother? Jesus is the Word of God and if one doesn’t base their life on His Words – then one is not a believer… hence why bother bc we are all at an impasse!

    • Avatar
      John Arthur

      Is Jesus the Word of God? This is the claim of the anonymous author of the Gospel according to John which was written about 70 years after Jesus’ death. If the Word of God is God, then Yes. We should base our lives on Jesus. But if Jesus is not God, why bother?

      If God is omniscient than why does the anonymous Gospel according to Matthew, probably written about 50 years after Jesus’ death, say that he didn’t know the day nor the hour when he would come again. Only the father knew! So the author of this Gospel does not think that Jesus was omniscient. The unknown author of the Gospel according to Luke (probably written in the 80s of the first century CE) says that Jesus grew in wisdom and knowledge. So he wasn’t omniscient.

      Although Jesus was possibly a historical person (although mythicists do not believe that he actually existed), he was fully human. Do human beings walk on water? Do human beings walk through walls? Can any human being feed over 4000 or 5000 human being from a few fish and loaves of bread? Can any human being levitate into the sky against the laws of physics? Aren’t these stories more likely to be myths that grew up around the story of Jesus? Didn’t the early church change him from an ordinary human being into a god to be worshipped?

      How can a virgin give birth? Isn’t it more likely that someone got Mary pregnant? This legend is found only in two gospels written in the 80s. Read books written by biblical scholar Bart Ehrman .

      • Avatar
        Luke

        John Arthur you raise a good point.

        (Matt. 24:36), “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”
        I agree with Matt Slick who had this to say…..

        This statement is found in the gospel of Mark and Matt. 24:36. The answer is simple. Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1, 14; 20:28; Col. 2:9), and during His ministry in Jerusalem, He was cooperating with the limitations of being a man. As a man, Jesus walked and talked. As God He was worshipped (Matt. 14:33; 28:9; Heb. 1:6), prayed to (Zech. 13:9; 1 Cor. 1:2), etc. This is called the Hypostatic Union.
        During His earthly ministry He moved in the power of the Holy Spirit and did His miracles by the Holy Spirit and not by His own divine power. This is because He was made for a little while lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9) and had emptied Himself and taken on the form of a man (Phil. 2:7). This would explain why in Matt. 12:22-32, when the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the devil, Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven? Why? Because Jesus, as a man who was ministering completely as a man under the Law (Gal. 4:4-5), did His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. This demonstrates that Christ was completely human and dependent upon God and that He was cooperating with the limitations of being human. That is why He said He didn’t know the day or hour of His return.

        However, we see that after the resurrection of Christ that it is said of Him that He knows all things (John 21:17) and that He is omnipresent (Matt. 28:20). Therefore, after His resurrection and glorification, the Lord Jesus did know all things.

        So i’d say yeah… we should base our lives on Christ!

        • Avatar
          John Arthur

          I don’t agree with any hypostatic union theory. If Jesus was both God and human, how did he have only one will? If he was completely human wasn’t his will human? If he was God, then wasn’t his will divine? Yet if Jesus is one person, how can one person have two different wills?

          Isn’t it far simpler to say that the theological gymnastics required to reconcile the NT are gobbledegook? And isn’t it more likely that the miracles that grew up around the story of Jesus are myths? Why base your life on myths?

          • Avatar
            Bruce Gerencser

            James Barnhart sent me the following reply to John Arthur:

            But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him…….
            Hebrews 11:6

          • Avatar
            John Arthur

            To James Barnhart,

            How does faith make the theological gobbledegook of the hypostatic union theory true? How can faith please a non existent being? How can a non existent being reward those who diligently seek him? What evidence is there for the existence of God or gods. God or gods are invisible beings much like Satan, angels, demons, fairies, leprechauns and unicorns. How does faith in invisible beings mean that they exist?

    • Avatar
      Zoe

      Why do you bother to read and comment Bevy?

      Who is at an impasse? You?

      Bruce is sharing his story, his journey both as a Christian and later as an atheist. Many people can relate to his story, learn from it and gain understanding.

  11. Avatar
    Bob Victor

    Shawn Boltz probably had a rotten relationship with his Dad causing deep seated issues.. His new partner looks exactly like a father for him. Get counseling next time and get set free, through power of Holy Spirit.
    Bruce appears to be a very sensitive guy who has gotten his feelings hurt a lot. He got bitter and withdrew, reading atheist crap as his revenge against God and man.
    Next time try forgiveness and keeping your eyes on Christ, not people. Quit taking people and your feelings so seriously… Just turn your eyes on Jesus and His Word… and the things of this world will grow strangely dim. He is able.

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      It’s Ray not Shawn.

      You read ONE post on this site and came to all these conclusions. Truly you are a perceptive man, someone gifted with great insight. I too have these gifts. Ready? You are just another judgmental asshole for Jesus. Now go away.

    • Avatar
      Zoe

      OMG another Christian genius who just magically appears with the power of a know it all and comes down upon Bruce’s blog and all hail the know it all analyzes Bruce and Ray and voila, praise Bob we’re all saved.

      Jesus wept.

      Hmm. Jesus why don’t you stop taking people and your feelings so seriously? Bob Victor wants to know.

    • Avatar
      John Arthur

      “Turn your eyes upon Jesus and His Word…”

      Do you mean that book that has large parts written by bloodthirsty, violent, barbaric and ignorant savages which you call the Word of God? This book has Yahweh command the Israelis to slaughter of little children and babies. It’s completely immoral and this is the God that you are worshipping. No thanks!

  12. Avatar
    Carol

    Hi Bruce- I came across your essay/article/blogpost via Wikipedia. I was Ray’s wife, and I’m probably throwing red meat to the wolves, but here goes.

    Only Ray and I know the full story, and deeper still, the story is only Ray’s. But I (and our 4 grown kids) know that we lived all the expectations and heartfelt commitments to God, as we knew from the Bible. Our faith was real. When Ray finally realized that nothing had changed, he came out to me and our kids (the youngest was a freshman in college).

    Since that day, I changed. Rather than think like the church people (in 2004/5) I decided to listen to Ray and others who were and are LGBTQ. I chose to understand, release Ray, and continue to love him.

    My life has changed immensely. I lost much but gained compassion. I made new friends, keeping only those who could accept me (and Ray) in a new light. I thank you for this post, and the outspoken stand you make as a former Christian. ❤️

    • Avatar
      John Arthur

      Thanks for writing this Carol! Thanks for your compassion and kindness that you have in your heart and that you display towards your former husband.

    • Avatar
      Bruce McDonald

      Really liked what you shared Carol. And really appreciate this article Bruce. Ray Boltz is one of my favorite Christian singers. I have no problem whatsoever saying he is a Christian still. He says so with his own mouth. His songs speak volumes about His deep faith in our Lord. We all have struggles in this lfe..Christian and non Christian alike. That is reality. We are all sinners and still Christ saves us if we call on Him. And when He saves us He saves us forever..thus we receive eternal life. i’ve sang Ray’s songs in Church many many times. The Anchor Holds being one of my favorites. Again thanks for the article Bruce..really made me think. Be interested to hear more on why you left the faith. i’m a big fan of apologetics and the evidence we have for the faith. I’m sure you have studied that over the years. It’s the evidence that has made my faith strong. Anyways God bless you for sharing Carol and thanks again Bruce.

      • Avatar
        Brian Vanderlip

        Bruce McDonald said, “We all have struggles in this lfe..Christian and non Christian alike. That is reality.”
        Would that Mr. McDonald could have accepted this simple human condition and not completely ruined it with Christianite insulation wrap covering that simple truth over until it becomes a moot point.
        Bruce Gerencser has written at great length about his graduation to Reason and this blog is full of fodder for thought, Mr. McDonald. I would encourage you to go looking and to read it all with an open heart, as it was offered, and to not preach nonsense here.

        • Avatar
          Bruce McDonald

          Been reading through his blogs…yes, very interesting with a soft tone to his writing..not abrasive at all..Bruce believed exactly like i believe so i am sure he completely understands where i am coming from..was not trying to be nonsensical or preachy so a little confused by some of your commentary. Curious how much Christian Apologetics Bruce has studied. Probably not too much since he walked away after serving so many years. It is the the overwhelming evidence i find for Christ by studying the evidence that makes my faith and trust in Him so strong..30 plus years and going stronger than ever..because of the evidence..Messianic prophecies and their fulfillment being the best evidence we have..God bless you guys..great article Bruce…and I have so much respect for Carol..i believe she is still a believer..i know Ray is.and i just love that

          • Avatar
            Bruce Gerencser

            I’m quite familiar and schooled in Christian/Evangelical apologetics. It’s not like Christians have had a new or original thought since I left the ministry. ‘Tis the nature of a closed, ancient religion. Solomon said, there’s nothing new under the sun, and that applies to apologetics too.

            For many of the readers of this blog, your “overwhelming” evidence is anything but. Many of us, myself included, walked away from Christianity because we no longer believed the claims of Christianity to be true. In other words, Christianity no longer made sense.

            Thanks for commenting.

            Bruce

          • Avatar
            GeoffT

            Even the most devout of legitimate bible scholars would disagree with your use of the word overwhelming when it comes to Jesus. The reality is that there’s a perception in western societies that, because of the central nature of Jesus to the faith of so many, that it must be based on strong evidence. It isn’t. The evidence for the very existence of Jesus is extremely weak, though I think there’s just enough to suggest there really was some sort of preacher on whom the legend is based, but the evidence is very strong that anything other than existence is untrue. No nativity, no miracles, and no resurrection. May have been crucified mind you.

          • Avatar
            Bruce McDonald

            GeoffT, you say “Even the most devout of legitimate bible scholars would disagree with your use of the word overwhelming when it comes to Jesus.” That could not be further from the truth, Almost every Christian Apologetic book and article uses the word overwhelming or a word very similar to it to describe the evidence. and I have almost all the books myself. So i know it for a fact. They say this because the evidence really is overwhelming. All kinds of it. I favor the prophetical evidence and the evidence for His Resurrection as some of the strongest irrefutable evidence we have. The manuscript evidence is amazing. The historical evidence also. Josh McDowell has written exhaustively on that. I could go on and on. So much evidence
            that i don’t simply believe it I trust it with all my heart and mind. It’s worth investigating. It will encourage your faith in Him greatly!! It has mine..so much so I can’t even describe it. It’s overwhelming! 🙂

            “Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements.
            In the introduction to one of his books, F.F. Bruce tells about a Christian correspondent who was told by an agnostic friend that “apart from obscure references in Josephus and the like,” there was no historical evidence for the life of Jesus outside the Bible.[1]This, he wrote to Bruce, had caused him “great concern and some little upset in [his] spiritual life.”[2] He concludes his letter by asking, “Is such collateral proof available, and if not, are there reasons for the lack of it?”[3] The answer to this question is, “Yes, such collateral proof is available,” and we will be looking at some of it in this article.. ” https://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources

          • Avatar
            Bruce Gerencser

            You are leaving out a word, the modifier “Evangelical.” “Almost every ‘Evangelical’ Christian Apologetic book and article uses the word overwhelming or a word very similar to it to describe the evidence. and I have almost all the books myself.”

            That you mention Josh McDowell speaks volumes. Some of us have read authors outside of the Evangelical rut; authors who don’t have a theological facade to maintain; authors who don’t start with presuppositionalism and inerrancy.

          • Avatar
            Bruce

            What I love about McDowell is he was very skeptical of Christianity until he thoroughly examined the evidence. Many Christian apologists have a similar background. Lee Strobel is similar. My biggest doubt about the Bible was the idea of God sending people to Hell to be tormented forever. It mentions that in the very metaphorical book of Revelation. And then they bring up the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. And a few more of Jesus’ teachings. And now everyone who rejects Christ burns forever. Just because of those few passages. That is not how we are to interpret Scripture. We must take the whole Book in it’s context. Where in reality it says we PERISH without Christ. As in John 3:16. Eternal Life and Perish are the words contrasted. I am a believer in conditional immortality..we become immortal through the gospel. Without Him we perish. To say God torments people forever makes God look like a monster. This teaching is in the minority. My view of Christians is not the greatest myself. A lot of them go on feelings or what they are taught without questioning. Well I question everything. Everyone should.

          • Avatar
            GeoffT

            Bruce, I can’t reply, for some reason, directly to a comment you left below, but it’s one where you mention Lee Strobel. Oh dear! I’d like to be charitable about the guy but I saw the film, or at least as much as I could stomach, about the case for Christ, and it is awful. He claims to have been a skeptic, an atheist even, but I have little doubt that this is untrue. Josh McDowell similarly pretends skeptical credentials, then ignores all the evidence in its entirety.

            Look, the evidence to which you refer is terrible. The New Testament, and especially the gospels, are so bad that the best that can be gleaned from them is the occasional matching with something known to be historically true, though it’s tiny in the extreme (for example Nazareth probably didn’t exist at the time of Jesus purported birth, and Herod died prior to it). We are left with just one thing; extra biblical evidence, as provided by Josephus and Tacitus. Nobody else. Diddly squat (there are other claimed references, but they are all second hand). If you really are interested then read Bart Ehrman. But don’t use overwhelming to describe something that is substantially less than flimsy.

  13. Avatar
    Brian Vanderlip

    Thank-you for your input here, Carol. As the now retirement-age son of a Baptist preacher, I understand what the atmosphere can be among believers who are challenged with new, honest witness. I am sorry you had to go through such difficult times but I very much respect your ability to love and change. You are an example of what I admire as human love, not Christian magic but painful, real caring. That you come to this blog full of non-believers like me, is another testament of your character, your human character. My best wishes to you and yours…

    • Avatar
      Bruce McDonald

      I am glad you at least have studied the evidence Bruce..that is very good news..you all are welcome to a group i am in called -Christian Apologetics- on Facebook..we have a nice mix of Christians and Atheists, etc..thanks for letting me share in your world..feel free to come share in mine..i am sure we all love truth..or what we think is truth..maybe we can learn from each other..who knows..blessings,- Bruce

    • Avatar
      Bruce Mcdonald

      I am glad you have studied apologetics Bruce..that is very good news..you all are welcome in a group I am in called Christian Apologetics on Facebook..we have a nice mix of Christians and Atheists in the group..thanks for letting me share here..feel free to come share there..maybe we can learn a little from each other..who knows? 🙂

  14. Avatar
    Nick Christopoulos

    doesn’t matter what we think.. what matters what God says and thinks… I am not going to judge.. but God will and that’s what he needs to worry about…I do not believe you can lose your salvation, BUT there are scriptures where it says 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. so he shouldn’t worry about what I think.. i have No power over him.. he needs to worry about the word of God, which speaks about homosexuality…

    • Avatar
      Astreja

      Nick, I don’t believe for an instant that anything in the Bible is “the word of God.” It is, in my opinion, the writings of mortals pretending to speak for a god.

      It’s not surprising that a homophobic culture would write scriptures condemning homosexuality, but humanity has moved beyond that and simply does not need scriptures to dictate morality.

    • Avatar
      J W

      Lines like “what matters what God says and thinks…” always seem so very ironic. I mean, do you really, though? Are you really interested in what God says and thinks, if such a being exists? If you’re going to put (your interpretation of) scripture above all the things that we’ve learned about human sexuality or nature more generally, then it’s not really God that you seem to be interested in or worship, but rather just scripture.

      Personally, I’d rather look at the whole picture or more simply just let God speak for himself, rather than blindly accept whatever words some human being attempts to put in God’s mouth.

    • Avatar
      Brian Vanderlip

      Nick Christopoulos (November 10, 2019 at 6:08 pm):
      One of the very best dodges of personal responsibility in Christianity is the one you just danced, the rubbish about how you won’t judge but God does. Next we would get the ‘it is actions I condemn (with God) not people’. Perhaps because you feel uncomfortable with human sensuality, you choose to sink into a comfortable denial with myriad others (not just Christians either) but your dodging your own deep feelings does you no good. It makes you less human, not more.
      But if you are garbage and born in sin and useless without God, then the whole conversation becomes moot because you have given over your independence, your human right to choose, to the God Delusion. Nothing can be said to entreat you to consider others then, because God.

    • Avatar
      Hugh D. Young

      It’s truly AH-MAAAAA-YAAA-YAAAA-YAAAAAA-ZINNNNG just how much we’re told that we need to ‘worry and fear’ concerning our standing with a ‘god of LOVE’, isn’t it Nick?

    • Avatar
      John Arthur

      What’s this “word of God” to which you are referring? I hope it’s not the bible. This is a book, much of which, was written by very bloodthirsty, violent and ignorant savages who created god in their own barbaric likeness. You do know that the book commands the wholesale slaughter of the Amalekites for what they did to Israel about 400 years beforehand. Not only are combatants to be slaughtered but non combatants, little children and babies. God is alleged to have commanded this butchery. If you think this is the “word of God”, then you God is a moral monster. Give me a compassionate humanism, any day.

      So if the bible promotes immorality, why do we take what it says about homosexuality as any “word of God”? It says that same sex oriented people should be executed. What kind of morality is that? If two same-sex oriented persons love each other and are kind to each other, why should they be executed? Why should any God of compassion burn them in hell with everlasting torture? Isn’t such a God barbaric? If you believe that the punishment should fit the crime, what crime have same-sex oriented couples committed?

      If your God tells you to love those that you consider to be your enemies and if he wants you to be compassionate towards the “ungrateful and the wicked”, why would he command the killing of little children and babies and why would he promote wars of aggression, including genocide? Why would he torture people forever for finite “sins” committed in finite time by finite persons?

  15. Avatar
    Zoe

    Bruce McDonald: “I am a believer in conditional immortality..we become immortal through the gospel.”

    Zoe: So what. You present your belief which is another brand of Christianity and apparently you have the correct Christianity and the other Christians are what . . . oh, yes, perishing, along with the rest of us who are void of “Him.”

    Bruce McDonald: “Well I question everything. Everyone should.”

    Zoe: What of those of us who studied and questioned and came to a different conclusion than you Bruce McDonald? There appears to be an assumption on your part that we haven’t done it right.

    • Avatar
      Bruce McDonald

      Never said the other Christians were perishing..i just don’t believe for a second God torments unbelievers for eternity..He destroys them, yes..but that is much different than constant torment. Another group called Rethinking Hell on Facebook gets into the details and Scriptural evidence for this belief. That is not the God of love and mercy and justice I read throughout Scripture..some Christians don’t think we have free will..usually Calvinists..i don’t agree..does not mean they don’t trust in Christ..the only requirement for salvation. If you have trusted Christ for your salvation..you have eternal life..you are saved..and nothing can pluck you out of His Hand. Sometimes we get very weak in our faith. Does not make us less saved. If we could lose it..we all would. Thanks for letting me share. I know I’m getting preachy now LOL..sharing His Good News is what I do..God bless you all 🙂

      • Avatar
        Bruce Gerencser

        You said, “sharing His Good News is what I do.” That fine, but if you have read the commenting guidelines, you know that “sharing” and “preaching” is not welcome. For many of us, myself included, we are weary of hearing the same sermons and apologetical arguments over, and over, and over again. We get it, no need to tell us again. That said, I typically give Evangelicals one opportunity to “share” what Jesus has laid on their hearts. Who knows, the Holy Spirit might use what you say to bring Bruce back to Jesus, right? Ten years, countless interactions with Evangelicals, and yet I’m still an unrepentant atheist.

      • Avatar
        Zoe

        Bruce McDonald: “Never said the other Christians were perishing..i just don’t believe for a second God torments unbelievers for eternity..He destroys them, yes..but that is much different than constant torment. ” (Emphasis by Zoe.)

        Zoe: Oh wow, “He” destroys them. Doesn’t sound hellish at all. (Sarcasm implied.)

        You’ve got it right Bruce McDonald. How wonderful it must be to be you.

        You’ve been preachy right from the start. Pointing that out is what I do.

        • Avatar
          Bruce McDonald

          Just to be clear..it unbelievers that will be perish. As in John 3:16.. Not other Christians that don’t agree with this or that. All true believers in Christ have eternal life. This is more a debate between Christians. A lot of them(too many) teach that God torments unbelievers for eternity. I believe in conditional immortality. You can only live forever if you have Christ There is a group of believers on Facebook called Rethinking Hell that show this in Biblical detail clearly if any are interested in this. It has been very enlightening to me and has completed my faith. But this is an atheistic group so I wont comment no more. Thanks for letting me share. Was just trying to plant a seed of hope in Christ. God bless

          • Avatar
            GeoffT

            I realise that this conversation has perhaps ended, but there is one issue I’d like to address. Belief.

            Everywhere one turns in the main religions, and their denominative versions, one sees the word ‘belief’. You yourself say that you can only live forever if you believe in Jesus. Well I’m sorry, but that doesn’t wash. If one really doesn’t believe something then no matter how hard you try you can’t alter that. I don’t believe the world is flat; if I said you had to believe that or you’d be doomed to hell could you change your belief? Of course not. It seems to me that the reality is that salvation can’t possibly rely on belief. It’s as simple as that. And if it doesn’t depend on belief then it must depend on sincerity, as in ‘it is my sincerely held belief’, and sincerity can involve believing that Jesus didn’t even exist. So maybe atheists will be the ones saved!

          • Avatar
            Zoe

            Exactly Bruce McDonald. And now you leave but finally you told the truth. Your mission right from the start . . . to plant a seed.

          • Avatar
            Bruce Gerencser

            Yet, you refuse to let me be an unbeliever. Can you not see how contradictory your beliefs are? In your mind, I am an atheist Christian, doomed to spend eternity with Jesus and his worshippers. Seems quite Handmaiden’s Tale to me.

          • Avatar
            Zoe

            Just to be clear Bruce McDonald, I knew what you meant. Thing is, in my experience and those of others, the issue among Christians arises with the very words you used here: “All true believers in Christ have eternal life.” (Emphasis by Zoe.)

            Then you say: “This is more a debate between Christians.”

            Yes it is.

            One many of us spent an entire life-time debating. We poured through the Scriptures, concordances, dictionaries,
            scholarly books, apologists books and listening to Christian radio. We attended seminars, churches, small groups, mega-groups, Bible school/college/seminary, coffee-house discussions, and family meetings. We held leadership positions, prayed on our knees and cried prostate on the floor. Searching for “true believers” and true believership. You don’t seem to understand that we’ve been there, done that. Have heard your presentation along with countless others. We’ve been directed to Facebook, to blogs, to books, to seminars to many many of those “true” places and discussions you are promoting.

            From my vantage point, I see you as sitting in the Seat of Moses. You believe you have arrived and have attained “true belief.” From my vantage point, I have met you countless times before in all the others who have come before you with your “Christian” authority.

            You don’t even see that you create division with your fellow believers when you talk about “true believers in Christ” and then to go on to say it is a debate with Christians. What are you debating Bruce McDonald? At the core what you are debating is whether your fellow Christians are in fact “true believers.” And if you follow your wonderfully lofty perishing concept that has brought you such completion, the truth is, you are dividing up amongst yourselves who is and is not a “true believer.” Take it to the conclusion. Yes, amongst yourselves you are placing some of your Christians in the perishing pile.

  16. Avatar
    Bruce McDonald

    No doubt you have made up your mind..i came here because I was looking up info on Ray Boltz and yours was the most recent. But this has been very interesting. Even shared it with my two apologetic groups on facebook and now they are questioning my beliefs on Hell LOL.. but it has started a great discussion on homosexuality and whether you can practice sin and still be a believer and be saved. I defend Ray’s Christianity..who are we to say who is saved and not??. Both you and Ray were very passionate about the Lord for many many years. And Ray still is. I don’t believe in people losing their salvation so i look to you as a brother who got very very weak in his faith. I think Ray is a very strong believer who has found a liberal church to condone his lifestyle. So are they all unsaved because they don’t see it like us?? I say who are we to make that judgement call??? If you believe in Christ from your heart you are given eternal life period..you are saved. I believe you both have done that.

    • Avatar
      Brian Vanderlip

      Sin is a construct created as a business plan. It still works on the billboards of the present, even in fashion! And speaking of fashion, Bruce McDonald, your ‘liberal’ paintbrush for Christianity doesn’t hide the fact that your faith is a form of artist pentimento: “… a great discussion on homosexuality and whether you can practice sin and still be a believer and be saved…”
      That does not sound like a great discussion to me but a bunch of judgemental bipeds painting over what other painters have left behind. What you don’t get is that there are a million million ways the painting could turn out finally depending on who has the last dab of paint to change it one more time. Your ‘good news’ is a wolf in sheep’s garb.
      Your words about homosexuality are ignorant and hurtful. We have individuals on this blog who have been sorely harmed by your beliefs and so when you come here and say a person who loves someone of the same sex is sinning then I have two words for you, Bruce and they are Fuck off. No, three words: Fuck right off!

      • Avatar
        Bruce McDonald

        You are just a real class act..it is what this whole article is about!!! ..I’m for Ray..he is my brother in Christ..I’m on his side you knucklehead..did you read anything I’ve read. i’m taking his side in the debate..i don’t agree with his lifestyle..and even Ray would understand that..he knows the Bible at what it clearly says about it.. but i don’t believe God has abandoned him for it..we all have something that we are dealing with that goes against His Word..and that is the point..and i will defend that to the end. He is a believer..He trusts in the Lord because the Lord has proven Himself to him. just like He has me..it is no wish washy belief like someone on here implied. And yes I try to plant seeds of hope..wherever I go. There is hope and peace to be found in Christ. A hope overwhelmingly backed by truth whether you believe that or not..it’s a fact!! You all brought up this topic. And I tried to not be so judgemental. Pretty brutal around here. I can only imagine how you treat other Christians who have a more firmer stance on this. wow..it must be fun to be you.

        • Avatar
          Bruce Gerencser

          You said in a previous comment ” I think Ray is a very strong believer who has found a liberal church to condone his lifestyle.” Are you not saying that you disapprove of his “lifestyle?” Do you think your God considers homosexuality a sin? I would love to see you exegetically square your views with what the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11:

          Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

          And such WERE some of you, the good book says.

          You want to pass yourself off as an enlightened Christian who has cast off the harsh God and his eternal torture of non-Christians. I don’t care what you believe, but I have a hard time squaring your beliefs with what the Bible says. (And you are not the first annihilationist to comment on this site.) I’d love for you to square your once-saved-always-saved belief with the 600+ posts in the Black Collar Crime series. These men were “saved” when they committed heinous crimes, yet your theology says that they are still Christians. No thanks, dude. Even if I was still a believer, I wouldn’t want any part of a belief system that slaps child molesters on the wrist and says, “Don’t do that again. Your behavior makes Jesus sad.” You may say that I am oversimplifying your theology, but am I really? If once saved people are forever saved no matter what they do, does that not mean that there will be rapists, child molesters, murderers, and the like in Heaven?

          And yet, it’s atheists, agnostics, pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, and other non-believers who will be rounded up by God and tossed into a Hitler-like oven (a metaphor for annihilation, if you are missing my point). You think being annihilated is somehow “better” than eternal torture. Sure, its duration is less, but it is the same vindictive asshole God who is annihilating most of the human race because they had the wrong beliefs, were born to the wrong parents, or lived in the wrong country. (Religious belief is largely determined by environment and geography.)

          You seem to think that it is okay for you to plant seeds even in places where such behavior is not welcome. Forgive my crudeness, but doesn’t this make you a rapist for Jesus; “planting” your seed wherever you want, regardless of whether the recipients are “willing?” I have been blogging for a decade. Thousands of people such as yourself have commented on this blog. Long-time readers such as Brian have read shitloads of comments from Evangelicals. Same shit, new day over, and over, and over again. I hope you will understand, then, when Evangelicals ignore commenting policies, determined to plant “seeds” for Jesus, some commenters might object. Perhaps, instead of getting all butthurt, you might consider how offensive your comments might be to some people. Yeah, I know, the “gospel” is offensive to unbelievers. Keep believing that, Bruce, but what is actually offensive is not understanding where you are and how your “seedurbating” might be received.

          • Avatar
            Bruce McDonald

            Bruce, that verse is perfect..if you read through that list of sins..we ALL miss the mark somewhere..so for anyone to pick on one sin is ridiculous. Such as fornication..sex between unmarried people. Drop that word in a group of people bashing someone else for their sin and you could hear a pin drop lol. Hard to find someone not guilty of that one. And it’s best to just be with your spouse. It’s best for everybody. That’s why God is against it. It not like He is trying to kill our fun like people think. He wants us to get the best out of it. But we ALL fail Him. And that is my only point. to sit there and constantly lust after someone else while married is adultery of the heart..see how no one gets by and why we all need a Savior?? Yes rapists and murderers should be dealt with swiftly.I’m all for capital punishment. But should they burn in Hell forever and ever and ever? Should anyone?? I’m all for justice. The Apostle Paul..one of history’s greatest evangelists was a murderer. David..a man after God’s heart was a murderer and God dealt with both of them. But we all fail and He still offers love and mercy to any of us. And that is the good news. What’s so offensive and bad about that? And all the evidence that backs Christ and the Bible is out of this world. No religion comes even close..no where near it. And you of all people here should know that if you have studied like you claim.

  17. Avatar
    Zoe

    Bruce McDonald: “And yes I try to plant seeds of hope..wherever I go. There is hope and peace to be found in Christ. A hope overwhelmingly backed by truth whether you believe that or not..it’s a fact!! You all brought up this topic. And I tried to not be so judgemental. Pretty brutal around here. I can only imagine how you treat other Christians who have a more firmer stance on this. wow.”

    Zoe: Like your blog host here Bruce McDonald, I don’t care what you believe. I care that you are honest about your intentions here. Your overall tone here is to present yourself as not judgemental, not spreading the gospel and thinking you’re the bees knees because you don’t believe in eternal torture.

    We’ve heard it all before. We’ve. heard. it. all. before. Countless varieties, wild diversity. You are hoping to plant a seed of hope yet you pretended it wasn’t really your reason for being here beyond your first comment by offering up conversation about Ray, homosexuality and still being a Christian. While doing so you sprinkle in your seeds of hope, hoping the unbelievers will pick up one of those seeds and find some fertile ground upon which to grow the seed.

    Some of us are not responding well to your words because as our blog host mentioned way back when, there is nothing new under the sun in what you’ve “shared” here. You can believe what ever you want. It does not prove your point any more than the countless other Christians who have stopped by to prove their point. That being that they also like you have the facts. Never mind that the facts do vary a bit.

    Actually the other Christians who have a firmer stance tend to be brutally honest with themselves and us.

    All around us every day Bruce McDonald people have hope and peace and they do not believe as you do. Hope and peace can and does exist without a “Christ” belief. That’s a fact whether you believe it or not.

    You tried to not be judgemental but failed at it because you didn’t like the response back to you. Yet we are brutal for applying our own discernment and judgement towards your words?

    Some of us do not find your evidence for overwhelming truth to be factual. It’s that simple.

  18. Avatar
    Brian Vanderlip

    Zoe said: ‘ I don’t care what you believe. I care that you are honest about your intentions here.’
    There is irony that cannot be ignored in these kind of exchanges with Bruce McD. and myriad others. The virus of evangelical faith persists in preventing self-care except through the blood of Jesus, the hook, line and sinker chomp on ‘being saved’. This can only occur when the victim is down and dirty, in trouble and badly needs support. This support comes via the triune God only when the victim admits they are dung and done without Christ, and that He is their new leader and God that gives them basic worth. This may be one method that the cloak is drawn over the eyes of Reason and decency, this self-destructive ‘faith’ that humankind is shit. It begins with the self denigration and then travels out on the great love of others offered by Christ, freeeely (sic). Bruce McD. means well as he sees it and just wants to share the light in his life. He does not perceive yet how he has abandoned his basic being and sold it for drugs. He would vehemently deny it because he is complete and happy with the faith.
    My dad was a Baptist preacher, Bruce McD. and I blamed Christianity for taking him from me, his son, for being distant and mostly relatiing to his son as a preacher and not a warm father, a connecting father. It was only later in therapy that I realized my dad was a loner and his adoption of preaching as a way of life was his way of staying a loner. I lost my dad before he became a Christian preacher, a job he did faithfully and with honor his whole life until he lost his ability to write sermons. I always loved my lost ‘saved’ dad dearly and spent years as a ‘saved’ son too but it did not change the fact that my dad was alone and wished to be alone. So when people come to me with the message of free salvation, it is not freedom to me, Mr. McDonald. I am not fallen and worthless without Christ and never was… When as a young teen I went to Baptist camp and did my campfire confession in tears and begged God to take over my life, I was high on Kool-aid. You probably won’t get-that but I did what I was supposed to do and was saved. Then in the cycle of ‘belief’ I spun for many years, I was diligent and gave it all I could but finally, I was still as I always was and the only difference was really that I had a community of like-minded folks in my church(es). It hurt me to lie, Bruce McDonald and the huge relief of telling the truth about it freed me from evangelical belief. That’s a short story about a much longer one but I wanted to share that with you because it is not ‘fun’ to tell you to fuck off, sir. It hurts. You hurt me with your big-heart bullshit, daddy. You were unreachable and Jesus was your armor. (Get the parallel?)
    Now, please don’t tell me that my dad did it wrong, Bruce McD. He did not. He stood by me as the preacher-dad he was to the very best of his ability and maintained his faith, as it was…
    There comes a time for some of when we have to take responsibility for ourselves, pick up the pencil and be honest, be the author, Bruce. I could not sustain the fantasy, though the feelings could come and go and the hymns were always full in me. So understand please, you do not bring light to me. Your message is one of denial of basic personhood, an embrace of addiction. Most of my family are closer to you in ‘faith’ and speak quite like you do. I too spent many many years inventing my own interpretation to survive-thrive as a Christian. Finally, I just needed to tell the truth.

  19. Avatar
    Bruce McDonald

    And you all are free to come to Christian Apologetics on Facebook..there are a few groups by that name..and it is quite a mix of atheists and all different kinds of Christians..you can share anything you want..it’s a free country over there..LOL we just ask you don’t swear at people..and no personal attacks..been going round and round with atheists and skeptics for years..same old same old..but every once in a while one of them really looks at the evidence and it is them that becomes a true powerhouse for God.. and nothing encourages my faith more than when that happens..And it has happened a lot!!!!

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      Comments from the Christian Apologetics site about this site:

      Bruce:Went on this atheistic blog because i was looking up Ray Boltz. One of my favorite Christian singers from the 80’s and 90’s. This man who did the blog use to be a Pastor for 25 years and then became an atheist. So anyways, Rays wife who use to be married to Ray before he came out and said he was gay commented on there. And then I commented on there. Now this is an atheist blog..so you can imagine what they think of me. [ah yes, a martyr for Jesus] Anyways thought this would be interesting to this group. I tried to share some apologetics on his blog..and they let me..but reject them of course. but maybe someone will be moved by the evidence. [Don’t hold your breath] Who knows?? God bless_

      Daniel: Thanks for sharing. I appreciate your willingness to engage and it is unfortunate to see that atheists still have such a combative and defensive spirit. I’m sure God is pleased with your witness to them!

      Bruce: Thanks Daniel..I really try to plant those seeds of faith. I try to be wise as a serpent..gentle as a dove. I try 🙂

      Bruce: His Word never returns void..I really believe that.

      Bruce: So true..one plants..one water..but it is God who saves..who gives the growth..amen

      Bruce: I really believe he [Boltz]has a heart for God..just been struggling with homosexual tendencies his whole life..it upsets me that he embraced it and gave in to it..and even says God is ok with it..I believe the ex- Pastor who wrote this article is still saved because i really believe he also had a heart for God..just got weak somewhere along the way..real weak..him and Ray are similar as far as that. Ray still says he believes. his music sure indicates he does. who am I to say he does not? Who of us has not struggled with sin?? Who of us does not struggle everyday?? If we are honest we can come up with something. Being real weak in your faith does not equal unsaved. And many out there are weak in their faith. This is why i love Christian Apologetics. It strengthens our faith.

      Steve: Bruce H McDonald so on top of an unrepentant practicing homosexual Christian you also have an unrepentant atheist Christian. These men are not Christians. The best you can say is that they were professors, but not genuine.

      Bruce: Steve Noel i can’t say that..i’ve read both of their testimonies..there is no doubt they both had a real passion for God for a very long time. Ray still does. He’s embraced a very liberal church that condones his lifestyle. But does that mean they all are unsaved because they see this differently than us?? I don’t think so. they are off Biblically no doubt!! But unsaved??? Who are we to make that judgement call?? Especially when one still professes wholeheartedly to believe. i don’t know about the ex-Pastor myself. I just see a brother who got real real weak in his faith. I don’t believe a person can lose their salvation when truly saved. I don’t care how weak they get. I’d rather they stayed strong though.

      Olaniyi: When a man after 25 yrs of preaching (what?) Becomes an atheist, it’s because he has always been an atheist, just that he was one who never confessed it with his lips. [liar, liar, pants on fire]

      This is why Scriptures warn us: Wisdom is the principal thing, so get wisdom and in all that getting, get UNDERSTANDING.

      May we not be foolish virgins, may we give our all to the faith which Christ has given and perfected, withholding nothing, and our profiting will be plain to all, for we would be established, immovable

  20. Avatar
    ... Zoe ~

    Comments from the Christian Apologetics site about this site:

    Bruce:Went on this atheistic blog because i was looking up Ray Boltz. One of my favorite Christian singers from the 80’s and 90’s. This man who did the blog use to be a Pastor for 25 years and then became an atheist. So anyways, Rays wife who use to be married to Ray before he came out and said he was gay commented on there. And then I commented on there.

    Zoe: See how wonderfully sincere I am. I was just commenting. No agenda or anything.

    Bruce: Now this is an atheist blog..so you can imagine what they think of me.

    Zoe: Ah yes. Bruce McDonald doesn’t judge at all.

    Bruce: [ah yes, a martyr for Jesus]

    Zoe: You place yourself as a martyr for showing up on this blog? Your ego is showing.

    Bruce: Anyways thought this would be interesting to this group. I tried to share some apologetics on his blog..and they let me..but reject them of course. but maybe someone will be moved by the evidence. [Don’t hold your breath] Who knows?? God bless_

    Zoe: In so many ways so many of us were Bruce McDonald.

    Daniel: Thanks for sharing. I appreciate your willingness to engage and it is unfortunate to see that atheists still have such a combative and defensive spirit. I’m sure God is pleased with your witness to them!

    Zoe: Dear Bruce McDonald. My God. You entered into the lion’s den and oh my you survived. Those very mean atheists. Listen, God is pleased and we are pleased with you and look, you take care of yourself okay?

    Bruce: Thanks Daniel..I really try to plant those seeds of faith. I try to be wise as a serpent..gentle as a dove. I try ?

    Zoe: Oh I needed your praise Daniel. Thanks a million. I did my best to slip in there unawares and use a subtle type of sincerity. My agenda is to always plant seeds. I try to make it look like it isn’t really my agenda. You know what I mean right? Friendship Evangelism type stuff. I try to be wise like the serpent in the garden disguised as a dove. I try.

    Bruce: His Word never returns void..I really believe that.

    Bruce: So true..one plants..one water..but it is God who saves..who gives the growth..amen

    Bruce: I really believe he [Boltz]has a heart for God..just been struggling with homosexual tendencies his whole life..it upsets me that he embraced it and gave in to it..and even says God is ok with it..I believe the ex- Pastor who wrote this article is still saved because i really believe he also had a heart for God..just got weak somewhere along the way..real weak..him and Ray are similar as far as that. Ray still says he believes. his music sure indicates he does. who am I to say he does not? Who of us has not struggled with sin?? Who of us does not struggle everyday?? If we are honest we can come up with something. Being real weak in your faith does not equal unsaved. And many out there are weak in their faith. This is why i love Christian Apologetics. It strengthens our faith.

    Zoe: Honest?

    Steve: Bruce H McDonald so on top of an unrepentant practicing homosexual Christian you also have an unrepentant atheist Christian. These men are not Christians. The best you can say is that they were professors, but not genuine.

    Zoe: Oops. Careful Bruce McDonald. Someone doesn’t like you toying with the idea Ray is still a Christian by his own testimony. Hell hath no furry like two Christians disagreeing.

    Bruce: Steve Noel i can’t say that..i’ve read both of their testimonies..there is no doubt they both had a real passion for God for a very long time. Ray still does. He’s embraced a very liberal church that condones his lifestyle. But does that mean they all are unsaved because they see this differently than us?? I don’t think so. they are off Biblically no doubt!! But unsaved??? Who are we to make that judgement call?? Especially when one still professes wholeheartedly to believe. i don’t know about the ex-Pastor myself. I just see a brother who got real real weak in his faith. I don’t believe a person can lose their salvation when truly saved. I don’t care how weak they get. I’d rather they stayed strong though.

    Zoe: You think you’ve changed their minds Bruce McDonald?

    Olaniyi: When a man after 25 yrs of preaching (what?) Becomes an atheist, it’s because he has always been an atheist, just that he was one who never confessed it with his lips. [liar, liar, pants on fire]

    Zoe: Liar. Now that’s rich.

    This is why Scriptures warn us: Wisdom is the principal thing, so get wisdom and in all that getting, get UNDERSTANDING.

    Zoe: Bruce McDonald, I’m warning you. You’re not smart enough and don’t possess the serpent’s wisdom. You aren’t enlightened enough. Get busy listening to your fellow Christians like me Olaniyi who are profoundly more wise than you in such matters. We are God’s spokespersons. You need to get understanding.

    May we not be foolish virgins, may we give our all to the faith which Christ has given and perfected, withholding nothing, and our profiting will be plain to all, for we would be established, immovable

    Zoe: Stop messing with those lying atheists Bruce McDonald. Get the hell out of there. You yourself are too weak spiritually to mix with the likes of those liars.

    • Avatar
      Brian Vanderlip

      Zoe’s spot-on translation of Bruce McDonald’s high-on-Jesus gave me a chuckle this morning as the snow falls AGAIN in the Thompson Valley areas of B.C. I get up each day to another three plus inches of pearly white sinless flakery! We are at a foot and a half on the ground at my place now and more to come, I hear. Made a couple of snowmen outside but they will soon become drifty mounds!

    • Avatar
      Brian Vanderlip

      Well Hello Maria Chen! I am not sure I am clear about your statement regarding molestation. Are you simply saying that Ray Boltz is gay because of molestation in his childhood? If so, you are misinformed regarding same-sex attraction. Please read the blog entry and listen to Mr. Boltz’s statement on the linked video. He clearly shares that he was for some thirty years living the life of a Christian man, married with children but that his inner self was attracted to same sex not just while he was married but from early-on in his life. His orientation was not necessarily caused by harm. Same-sex attraction is common among us and maintains a certain percentage of the population over time. Listen Maria, if I was to suggest to you that it might in fact be you that was molested as a child and that is why you suggest Boltz must have been harmed to be homosexual? You have no evidence for your silly statement so perhaps something hurt you deeply when you were young and now you summarily judge people you have little insight into… That’s usually how it starts and on and on it goes.
      Maria, Christianity of the evangelical type encourages people to deny who they are and believe they are evil in their own hearts. Religion like this offers a drug of denial that is happy to see one turn against self and say that the preacher is the one to listen to and not one’s own heart.
      If there is/was/will be any God worth bothering about, that God be clear that It loves people just as they are. The self-harm of the salvation message to sinners will be left in the trash barrel where it belongs. Ray Boltz is still a believer but he has taken a step into Reason and been able to be more honest. I would like to say that about Maria Chen too but your words don’t reveal that at all. Try harder.

  21. Avatar
    Jenna

    I’ve always had a problem with gays saying that God made them that way. I don’t think a Holy God would make someone to have sex with someone’s sewer system. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      Hmm, males use their penises to urinate, and women? Well their urethras are where? Evidently, you are only “fixated” on the plumbing parts that disgust you. You do know heterosexuals can and do engage in anal sex, right? No, what’s going on here is that you are looking for justification for homophobia. No worries, God made you that way.

    • Avatar
      ... Zoe ~

      I’ve always had a problem with a “Holy God” drowning the known world because he was pissed that his creation was screwing up, even though he knew they would, being all omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

    • Avatar
      GeoffT

      Jenna, you ‘having a problem’ and struggling to make sense of something doesn’t change reality. And I can assure you that you are quite wrong. Just as some people are born left handed, some are born colour blind, and some deaf, so some are born attracted to those who share their biological sex. Get over it.

  22. Avatar
    Mendy

    Well u are correct on God loves everyone but, u are totally wrong if u think God is going to change what sin is just bc u have decided to embrace your sin!!!!! This is a shame to confuse others into thinking this is ok just bc this is the path u have chosen to take over the love that u say u have for Jesus. We all have sin that satan likes to use bc he knows our weaknesses. Your weakness was apparently having sexual tendencies for other guys. It’s NOT about love, it’s about SEX! U had 2 choices to make
    1. Actually follow God like you’ve been singing about and turn from your sin or……
    2. Give into satan and your sin and totally throw away your relationship with God.
    It truly is a sad situation that u put u and your family in. My family will be praying for u and yours.
    Hopefully u will come bk to the TRUTH that NEVER changes no matter what spin u want to put on it!!!!!!

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      Or you could just wish Ray well and hope he has a happy life. Instead, you attack him for who and what he is, preaching the gospel of heterosexuality.

      If the “truth” never changes, why do so many Christians have different interpretations of the Bible? How do you know your interpretation is the right one? Why should any of us believe that you are speaking the truth and Ray is speaking lies? Coming to a blog and preaching a sermon is not the equivalent of truth. It’s a form of masturbation practiced by Christians who can’t accept that some people are different from them. I’m sure it “felt” good to set Ray straight, but all your comment did was add your name to the list of thousands and thousands of bigots and Fundamentalists who have commented on this site. Good job, Mendy.

    • Avatar
      Astreja

      Mendy, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with sex between consenting adults, be they of the same or different genders. You are also completely wrong when you say “It’s NOT about love.” You don’t know how to read others’ minds, and you are out of line when you pretend to know whether or not any two people love each other.

      You are in thrall to a particularly stupid mythology, you clearly do not understand the meaning of the word “truth,” and your writing is childish and lazy. Thank you for yet more reasons to not bother with Christianity.

  23. Avatar
    Linda

    God is a holy God. He did not create homosexuality, we cannot embrace that lifestyle and go against God’s moral character. We need to repent of sin and turn away from it. God did not create pedophiles and they certainly cannot be allowed to embrace their attraction to children sexually. God does not approve of fornication or adultery or any form of srxual immorality. He cannot go against his own character which is holy, pure and moral. Satan perverts that which God declared good when he created the world. Sin came in and destroyed all that is good. We need a Savior. We need Jesus. Even if people struggle with homosexual thoughts, they cannot live out their sin. I cannot as a, single woman, have sex outside of marriage. Sex was created as a bonding method inside of a committed, respected and godly union such as marriage between a man and a woman. Sin destroys.

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      Lady, you need to get laid. Having sex will cure you of your homophobia.

      As far as “Sex was created as a bonding method inside of a committed, respected and godly union such as marriage between a man and a woman,” you are, from a Biblical perspective, wrong.

      Evidently, you don’t know your Bible very well. The Bible God created sex for the express purpose of making babies (procreation). The Bible also condones incest. Read Genesis. And having concubines multiple wives. See David, a man after God’s own heart, and Solomon, allegedly, the wisest man in the Bible. Lots of crazy sex going on in the OT.

      So, what was that about God, sex, virginity, and marriage again?

      Linda, you really need to think about these things. Ask yourself, why am I so obsessed with who Ray Boltz fucks? Why am I so obsessed with the sexual proclivities of others? Look deep into your heart-of-hearts, Linda, and ask yourself, why? I have a good idea what you will find.

    • Avatar
      Astreja

      How can “Satan,” let alone mere mortals, put a dent in the handiwork of a “holy God”? What a silly tale you spin, Linda.

  24. Avatar
    Rocky Favia

    its not a matter of what man thinks about homosexuality. Its what God thinks.either you take the whole word if God, or none at all. The Bible clearly states there will not be homosexuals in heaven!

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      Sigh. You don’t know what God “thinks,” Rocky. All you know is what some unknown men said thousands of years ago about God/homosexuality/eating shrimp. You have no evidence for your claim that the Protestant Bible was written by God and contains his very words. You also have no evidence for your claim that there exists “somewhere” an eternal Heaven and Hell. You have the Bible, I have Harry Potter. May the best “book” win.

      The bigger issue is your Bible-inspired homophobia. Why can’t you be happy for Ray Boltz? Why are you so concerned about who fucks whom?

    • Avatar
      Astreja

      Not only will there be no homosexuals in heaven — there won’t be any heterosexuals, or in fact anyone at all. Heaven is a myth, Rocky, and it doesn’t matter what the Bible “clearly states.”

  25. Avatar
    Jeff

    I see being Gay (a sin) in the same way I see one would would commit Adultery (also a sin), or one would would hang out with some one live with a person be intimate with that person and have no marriage commitment (AKA Fornication, AKA living in sin) note that what i listed here is all connected (but still sin) in a sexual way. far as the other matters believer and saved or unbeliever and not saved?? only GOD almighty can know that…TRULY. sure we can guess or know what someone is saying but GOD looks at the deep inner nature or the person and knows, he don’t guess (obviously) he game us a brain to use to learn his teachings etc and it is written
    “Matthew 7:16-20
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”

    that’s not >>>MY<<< opinion cause I personally can be wrong sometimes about this and that all over the place. those are the word of GOD. and last but not least one should never call names about or to one who is in sin. be that sin “gay” or otherwise. treat them with respect and love…the same way you would any acquaintance or even who is a friend that cheats on their Marriage, or just has sex with whomever they like and say Marriage doesn’t matter. and that’s all I have to say really except have a good day

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      Let me sum up your comment: “Hey Ray, you are going to burn in Hell because you are gay. I didn’t say this, God did.”

      Jeff, why are you obsessed with people fuck? Why the focus on the private sex lives of others?

    • Avatar
      Astreja

      No, Jeff — Your homophobia is definitely your opinion. This “God” entity is a myth until empirically demonstrated, and mythical beings can only hold mythical opinions.

      Furthermore, you decided at some point in your life that you would use Christian mythology as a basis for your worldview, and I hold you 100% responsible for the hatred you are publicly expressing towards LGBT individuals. Calling it “sin” does not excuse you.

      May you lose your faith and never regain it.

    • Avatar
      Sage

      So by your logic, if gay people are married then it’s not sin, since it is neither adulatory or gasp fornication? At least that’s how I rad you post.

      I don’t care what god says, I care what people like >>>YOU<<< say. In spite of years of searching on my part, god has never made any effort to tell me I am living “in sin.” People like >>>YOU<<< however, never miss a chance to tell me my life is wrong. People in >>> YOUR<<< circle have passed laws to eradicate me in the past and are gleefully hoping to start passing laws again if they get a new Supreme Court justice.

      I should also point out that, assuming god exists, he made me non-binary. He didn’t make your friends adulterers or “fornicators.” That is a choice they made. Being gay is not a choice.

      By they way, you can’t call out someone who is gay for living in sin then say “ last but not least one should never call names about or to one who is in sin. be that sin ‘gay’ or otherwise. treat them with respect and love…”. That is sort of self accusatory, isn’t it? I’m not seeing much love and respect in this post.

      • Avatar
        Astreja

        People like Jeff always seem to go after the easy targets – isolated individuals from groups that are struggling for equality, rather than people “sinning” egregiously in large numbers.

        Essentially it’s a rather transparent attempt to flaunt social power at the expense of someone who is not well positioned to retaliate.

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