Over the past ten days, I have been emailing back and forth with a 50-something year old Canadian Evangelical woman named Anna (actually her name is Angela). I have written two posts about our interaction: Two Questions From an Evangelical Christian and Anna, the Evangelical, Hides Her Christianity Under a Bushel.
Yesterday, Anna sent me the following email. I have edited her email to remove any data that might personally identify her (all spelling and grammar in the original):
Hello Bruce. I’m going to tell you a little about myself. First my sincere apologies for being rude. I just get very defensive when my Lord is attacked. I am sorry.
….
My Hero [her brother] gone in a moment but not forever. I do not say this sarcastically, I say it in all sincerity what makes you go on when someone you love so deeply is gone. When your life is over do you believe you just go into the ground and decay. That you get this life for 1 breath or 100 years but that is it? To me that would be truly depressing. I know depression all to well it’s a place I never want to be again.
….
When I was *** years old I was swimming in a river. I could swim quite well. I went a ways out to one noticed me. All of a sudden I was under the water and drowning.
….
All I can remember is calling for help in my head, that I didn’t want to die. Bruce no human being came to my rescue that day, it was Christ that put His Arm under me and raised me up out of that water. Without His intervention I would have died.
….
Last thing, as a child growing up I was sexually abused many times. I lived in fear many years. I always asked God to pick my spouse. I did not want the job. A month before my *** Birthday i was helping at my now husband’s father’s church. Organizing little boys for a Christmas concert when someone cupped my face. Turned my head towards my husband and said this is the man you will marry. At *** we married *** years ago. Without God our marriage would have never survived. Satan has tried to kill us many time. We have been tested so many times. he wants to destroy us but it will not happen. Jesus has saved us. If our lives were nothing but chaos and pain He has marked our hearts forever.
I don’t follow Jesus for riches, for beauty, for material goods or expect life to be easy. Tough times do not shatter my faith. I’ve had a million of them. But I have peace, a peace I prayed for, for years. Whatever I have to live through here on earth cannot compare to His pain nor the life He has in store for me. So Bruce you did judge me prematurely on that. I absolutely do not hide my faith. I am very bold about my faith, some day it may cost me my earthly body but never my life. I dont you your [???] story but I pray it ends well one day. I will be praying for you at times. You can’t stop that my friend. These are only a couple examples of His love for me. I honestly never read your replies. I’m sure they were insulting but all is fair.
Take Care
Angela
Before I could reply to Anna, she fired off another email to me:
I forgot something Bruce. My evidence is my life, I don’t need any other proof. Jesus has made Himself real to me. I have heard His voice and felt His touch. Literally on both, nothing can undo a heart and life that has been touched by Jesus. I care about you, I don’t know what happened in your life to draw you away but it’s just not worth it Bruce, it’s just not
Angela
I could have responded to Anna’s theological assertions, but after I read this line: “I honestly never read your replies,” I thought, “why the fuck bother.”
I replied:
Angela,
You are clueless. You don’t bother to read my responses to you, yet you want me to wade through your long, rambling emails. Remember, you contacted me. You are the one who refused to say you were a Christian. You are the one who personally insulted me. You can tell me anecdotal stories, but your behavior reflects poorly on your faith. You see, it’s how people behave that matters — at least to me, anyway.
Based on how you treated me, why would I ever want to become a Christian? You really need to rethink your approach, Angela. Again, you contacted me, personally insulted me, and then showed no interest in my responses to you. Not going to win many people to Jesus using this approach.
I plan to write another post about our “interaction.” I won’t mention any personally identifiable information.
Bruce Gerencser
Minutes later, I received a two sentence response from Anna:
Read one line, this cant be a real person. Answer is to fast
Evidently, Anna, AKA Angela, thinks I am an AI Atheist. Now, that’s a new one. Anna, of course, doesn’t know anything about me. She has made no effort to learn anything about my story. Had she done so, she might have found out that I am a prolific writer. I write and type quickly — with two fingers, by the way. I can churn out 1,000 words quicker than Cincinnati Reds’ closer Raisel Iglesias can blow a save. And trust me, Iglesias is a prodigious save blower.
I have always been quick with my words, even when I shouldn’t be. If that makes me some sort of Atheist Robot, so be it.
In closing, I want to challenge Anna’s claim that she did not read my blog responses to her. The server log for her IP address suggests otherwise:
It is possible that Anna opened the post, but did not look at it. I know, I know, about as likely as the existence of God. The evidence suggests that she indeed read at least one of the posts I wrote about her. I may be a godless heathen, but I do tell the truth 99.9% of the time. Why not admit to reading my posts? You know, like admitting you secretly surf porn sites?
As is my custom, I will send Anna the link to this post. If I hear from her again in any substantive way, I will be sure to let you know.
Some readers may wonder why I write posts such as this one and the others about Anna. I think it is important for you to witness how some Evangelicals respond to me behind the scenes. Their behavior is an ever-present reminder of the fact that I made the right decision 12 years ago to walk away from Christianity. Why in the world would I want to be part of a club that treats non-club members so poorly? No thanks!
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Oh Bruce,
Why do these Evangelicals write to you like this? Anna (Angela) claims to hear from Jesus, but presents you with no evidence for her claims. She is rude to you. To her, you (being an atheist) are “ungrateful” and “wicked” yet she pays no attention to what Jesus is supposed to have said.
Hi Anna,
Don’t you believe that Jesus said, ” But love your enemies, do good … and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful just as your Father is merciful (Luke 6:35-36). As a supposed follower of Jesus, does the biblical witness to Jesus (right here is this passage) mean anything to you? You are supposed to be kind or compassionate towards atheists and you are supposed to do good. So, it seems to me that you think that your private ticket to Jesus is saying something different from the biblical witness right here in this passage. Your lack of graciousness and failure to read about Bruce’s story and your impulse to to preach at Bruce shows that your Christianity is totally false. If there is a hell, you will be one of the ones with the top seat, right next to Satan.
Enjoy your life while it lasts!
Ew, please don’t wish her on Satan. The lad has enough to do, being in charge of God’s Shi***y Little Jobs Department (SLJD). Share the real story with Eve? Sure! Torture a guy named Job? Ew, that requires messing with people’s lives, but a bar bet with God is a bar bet. Promise Jesus dominion over all earth if he joins with the fallen angels? Well, we all knew he was going to refuse, and anyhow the “Sermon on the Mount” dude would have made a crappy fallen angel. Let the Lord of Darkness manage his darkness in peace.
Of course, I’m being facetious. (Well, except for being in charge of the SLJD part, a colleague of mine invented that as an earthly job description at a US defense contractor we both worked for in the 1980s.) I have noticed, however, that Christians like to bring out Satan and demons whenever they need an explanation of why an earthly relationship, job, or whatever didn’t go right for them. I don’t ever read that they’d made mistakes themselves. Perhaps I don’t read enough. And yet, in my almost 61 years on this planet, I have observed that people (including myself) make mistakes all the time. This is part of being human. And if you blame your mistakes on Satan or demons, you never get to grow and learn from them. Just sayin’.
OMG, you make mistakes? ??
There’s so much here that reminds me of my Canadian evangelical days.
Not reading your replies is telling. Suggestive perhaps of fear? It’s not easy Angela. Many of us have been where you are and probably understand your attempts to save Bruce better than most.
For not being a real person Bruce, Angela has spent way too much time on you. 🙂
Angela, if you are reading this, please heed Proverbs 18:19 “A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.”
Angela supposes much. So much so that she doesn’t even bother to read your replies because she “knows” how you will answer. This is quite typical behavior of Evangelicals. Projection and assumption with no hint of humility tends to turn people off. As far as rotting in the ground, yeah, that’s called eternal life. Our bodies feed the earth, Baby, and keep the cycle going! THAT is beautiful!
Now here’s the rub as I see it: Jesus wants you love your neighbor and do good but the preacher in him wants you to fulfill the great commission and let Bruce Almighty have another chance at eternal life! He’s so clearly unhappy, he can’t even shave! He neeeeds the ol’ Jesus razor and to realize how wrong wrong wron he is! Go tell him right now and take your exclamation marks along, your CAPS and your ‘Quotes from the Witnessing Bible’. You are Bruce’s last chance on his last last day for the last time! (Don’t bother listening to him because he is the temptation offered by the devil and might snare you. Just give him the old black and white!
Anna/Angela, I am sorry you feel you must disappear and that your time must be taken up this way, ignoring people and seeking higher powers. Be patient with yourself. Care for yourself. Get out of bed early and watch the dawn offer you the whole world, the whole works again.
If you choose to believe in Jesus, feel free but please stop the preaching. As has been pointed out (by some non-believers here on this blog) your mission is to love others as a believer. Your actions here kinda’ missed all that… and wouldn’t you know it, a bunch of evil atheist baby-eaters have offered you Bible messages to help you reform!
‘What a world, what a world,’ said the wicked witch of the West before Dorothy melted her inot a puddle.
Anna/Angela, I am sorry that you experienced some awful things in life. No one should have to go through those things. You have derived comfort in a certain type of emotional feelings tied to a particular belief system. That’s great that it works for you. It won’t work for everyone as we are all different. Please give Bruce (and his readers) the benefit of the doubt that they know their own experiences and minds well enough to find their own systems. It was offensive to tell Bruce that you didn’t bother to read his responses – it shows you had a selfish desire to have your say without engaging with another human who might have different ideas. It shows you lack respect and consideration for Bruce. I don’t know what your version of Jesus is like, but if he condones this kind of behavior, he is not someone I would want to emulate. Good luck to you, I hope you can find other people with whom you can engage respectfully.
I’m trying to be sympathetic here, but honestly Anna/Angela just makes me tired. If she wants to know why we (not everybody here, but so many of us) don’t believe, then she’s welcome to ask actual questions. If she wants to offer her witness and call for our repentance, she can come and take her one opportunity in keeping with the rules for this blog.
But her experience is not our experience, and while it may have given her reasons to believe it does no such thing for us. It’s just more of the same useless “Jesus has done so much in my life” message; ugh. If Anna/Angela really wants to help us, she should ask her Lord to speak to us with the same unmistakable clarity that He apparently speaks to her. Because what she’s describing has not been my experience of God at all.
I have to agree with Michael, Anna makes me tired. Claims she loves God but lies to you. Refuses to read your stuff…either willful ignorance or a lie. I’m with Bruce, I care about how a person treats other people. I’m not too good with other people claiming they love God while lying, but I have a Christian friend who does the same thing. As far as I can see, being a Christian doesn’t actually make anyone a better person. Wanting to change and treat others better does make someone a better person.
Anna, and indeed all Christian apologists, just “know” that their belief in Jesus is true. William Lane Craig was absurdly honest when he admitted: “The way in which I know Christianity is true is first and foremost on the witness of the holy spirit in my heart. This gives me a self-authenticating means of knowing that Christianity is true, apart from the evidence.”
the lie from a theist that the atheist they are talking to is an AI is common. I’ve been called a bot and a computer. Poor theists, always are dependent on lies. Anna is a liar. That’s all I need to know about Christianity and its supposed god.
Well, Bruce. It is not just atheists, agnostics, and “nones.” Christian Fundamentalists and Conservative Evangelicals have treated me and many other regular, everyday folks like shit for decades. You were a fundie insider for 25 years, and you too in various contacts have confessed to treating people like shit back in your fundie days. So, what is it with these fundie people? Why do so many of them treat people so badly? There’s gotta be a list of reasons somewhere—and I get so tired of hearing this line from those people:
“Oh my goodness. I am so sorry that one of my evangelical brothers or sisters treated you in such a mean-spirited way. Some people are just awful!!!! Why don’t you tell me what happened in detail (thought balloon—-so I can analyze what happened, prove that you are indeed a living piece of shit, and demonstrate how perfect our fundie belief system really is and how imperfect you are in all things—-and then I can invite you to submit to me and turn you into the same kind of mean-spirited little minion that I am—-ALL IN THE NAME OF JESUS—–OF COURSE.”
Angela. I read about your recent contact of Bruce on this site,and I must sayfirst,get some good therapy for your past traumas. It’s not anti-Christian to get help for that,you may have PTSD. Most of is who read Bruce’s posts,are refugees from abusive churches in some fashion. I,for one, detest American Christianity, because it brings out the worst in people,the fear,the greed, the jockeying for position and favor,materialism, oppression of colonialism is justified,etc. How you think you can behave as you have so far o this blog, while talking as you have,expecting anyone to listen is simply mind-boggling. You won’t ever convert any person,acting like a typical Fundie. Just concentrate on your marriage and getting that therapy before shouting about your faith. No one wants to hear you until you do the above. There’s a lot of triggering with that hard Christian rhetoric. Bruce is a grown man, and should he decide to go and do as you(and others insist)he is certainly capable of doing that. Haranguing someone will only bring opposite results,but,Fundies are famous for haranguing, Pray all you like,but please stop with the game-playing. It’s very unbecoming. Commenting on a blog like his is out of your league.
“… it was Christ that put His Arm under me and raised me up out of that water.”
“… someone cupped my face. Turned my head towards my husband and said this is the man you will marry.”
I think Anna/Angela could use a good psychiatrist.
Bruce,I was born and raised in Findlay.I have a brother and sister that still live there.I attended Trinity Baptist church there when I was about 9-10 years old.The preacher was Gene Millionie at that time.I went up to the alter and supposedly got saved there,but I didn’t really understand what I was doing.I loved going to Deitzes when I was a kid.Awesome ice cream and candy! I also went to Wilsons to get a malt now and then.It seems like everybody in Findlay(and Ohio)for that matter were into sports.I was a weird guy(for living in Findlay)because I wasn’t into sports,except for a brief time when I was about 10-13 years old-when My brother who is about 9 years older than me,turned me into a fan of the Tigers,for those years.We went up to see them live at the stadium in Detroit a few times.I eventually moved away from Findlay and went on my own when I was 18 years old.I’ve lived in New Mexico for about 45 years now.I was an evangelical Christian for about 35 of those years.I’m now 65 years old and have been an atheist/agnostic for about 5 years.My wife and three kids are all evangelicals(Calvary Chapels?)and are in it up to their eyebrows.Now,they are indoctrinating my grandkids.Me and my wife have agreed to disagree for the most part(after a few arguments).I’m trying to cope but sometimes I want to scream.Anyhow,I’ve enjoyed reading your stuff.From a fellow Ohioan,keep up the good work.
Oh, Calvary Chapel. Out here in Southern California on FM radio, we have Jack Hibbs, and his show, Reality Radio with Jack Hibbs. While he is a good speaker and often funny, sounding like a much younger man–he keeps company with people like David Lane and Al Mohler,Wayne Grudem, real uber rightists. I listen for entertainment value and to keep track. Hard to believe at one time,that I ever mentally could agree with him about anything now. I hear than an six-member of one of their branches is writing an expose’ of that denomination.