After I deconverted in November 2008, a dear friend of mine and a colleague in the ministry jumped in his car and drove three hours to my home in rural northwest Ohio in the hope of verbally beating some “sense” into me. After his disastrous visit, I wrote him a letter — to which he did not respond. (Please see Dear Friend.)
During our discussion, my friend, realizing that I was settled in my decision to leave Christianity, asked me to stop sharing my story with other people. He believed that writing about my present unbelief would unsettle Christians — particularly former congregants — and perhaps cause them to lose their faith. I wrote at the time:
I was also troubled by your suggestion that I not share my beliefs with anyone. You told me my beliefs could cause others to lose their faith! Is the Christian faith so tenuous that one man can cause others to lose their faith? Surely, the Holy Spirit is far more powerful than Bruce (even if I am Bruce Almighty).
I am aware of the fact that my apostasy has troubled some people. If Bruce can walk away from the faith…how can any of us stand? I have no answer for this line of thinking. I am but one man…shall I live in denial of what I believe? Shall I say nothing when I am asked of the hope that lies within me? Christians are implored to share their faith at all times. Are agnostics and atheists not allowed to have the same freedom?
Over the years, more than a few Evangelicals (and former congregants) have asked (told) me to shut up and move on; that my writing was causing all sorts of turmoil among the faithful; that I needed to find a different “hobby.”
Just today, an Evangelical man, using a fake name and email address, left the following comments on the post, The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense:
Please stop. It’s one thing to leave God. Another to try and get others too.
Doesn’t prove anything. God could break his own rules, obviously. This holds no water.
This man then sent me two emails:
Email #1
Why. You were walking in the right way. Doing what God called you to do. Why did you have to neglect his word and leave.
God loves you, he still does. Jesus loves you. Bad things happen to test your faith. I offer my sincerest condolences to you but God doesn’t make these things happen. In most cases he helps you but he uses pain to remind you of your purpose. He allows you enjoy yourself but halts it with pain so you don’t forget what you’re here to do. He allows good things come to you so he also has the right to allow bad things come to you.
When you declared that you hated God did you even take a peek at all the good things he’s done for you, no. You just used God as a scapegoat for your pains. Please consider this and come back to God. He’ll take you wherever you are, even if you rejected him before.
Do you really want to suffer during judgement day. Do you really want to give up eternal life with God, the best thing possible, because you had pain? You really want to give up sitting up there with your family and friends and with your Creator, the one who loves you the most just because you had moments of pain that are incomparable to the joy you will receive up there? Then please, please just try to reconsider.
Email #2
Praying for you
This man read a total of eight posts, including several that should have warded him off from sending me the aforementioned emails. However, I am sure that he felt “led” by God to contact me, believing that his words would persuasively cause me to see the error of my way. Instead, his masturbatory prose caused me to sigh, saying to myself, Jesus H. Christ, will they ever learn? I know, I know, dumb question. Twelve years and thousands of emails and comments from Evangelicals later, it seems that this particular species of Christianity is incapable of rationally and thoughtfully engaging me in a meaningful, thoughtful, productive way.
Now let me answer his comments and emails.
I have no intention of stopping my writing and storytelling. I am just one man with a story to tell; no different from countless Evangelicals who blog about their faith or stand up during testimony time and share what God has done for them. Why should I shut my mouth while Evangelical zealots run to and fro across the Internet and down every city and village street preaching the Christian gospel, imploring non-Christians to repent of their sins and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ? Why do Evangelicals think that they should be the lone voice in the public square? Surely, I am not that big of threat to Christianity. Surely, the triune God of Christianity is powerful enough to put an end to my storytelling. That God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit, don’t bother me at all suggests that they don’t care (too busy helping Grandma find her car keys) or they don’t exist. I am going with the latter.
I will continue to tell my story, critique Evangelical Christianity, and expose clergy sexual misconduct as long as I am physically able to do so. I have a draft folder full of things I hope to write about someday, and as long as that folder has files, I plan to keep on writing.
The letter writer wrongly thinks that the reason I left Christianity is because of some “bad” things” that supposedly happened to me. Fine, I might as well tell the truth. No more lying to my family, friends, and readers. You see, I was molested. In fact, I was molested daily for years. I have kept the name of abuser secret, but today, I am going to share his name with the world. His name is Jesus. Once I got away from Jesus, the Bible, and the church I felt as if I had been delivered and set free. All praise be to Loki! There, are ya happy?
One of the reasons I continue to write is that I daily come in contact with other people who have been molested by Jesus or his representatives on earth. I want to help them break free from the pernicious hold their abusers have over their lives. While the primary reason I left Christianity is that it no longer made any sense to me (please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense), there was a psychological component to my deconversion. One of the popular hymns I grew up singing was the song, “Burdens are Lifted at Calvary.” One of the stanzas goes like this:
Cast your care on Jesus today
Leave your worry and fear (worry and fear)
Burdens Are Lifted At Calvary
Jesus is very near
As an atheist and humanist, I have rewritten these lyrics a bit:
Cast your care on skepticism and reason
Leave your worry and fear, knowing that shit happens to everyone
Burdens are lifted through intellectual inquiry
Jesus is nowhere to be found; a dead man, buried in an unknown Palestinian grave
I have nowhere on this site said that I hated God. Evangelicals will search in vain for a quote of me saying that I hate the Big Man Upstairs. I suspect this man is referring to my post, Why I Hate Jesus. In the two paragraphs of this post I unequivocally state:
I don’t hate the flesh and blood Jesus who walked the dusty roads of Palestine, nor do I hate the Jesus found in the pages of the Bible. These Jesuses are relics of the past. I’ll leave it to historians to argue and debate whether these Jesuses were real or fiction. Over the centuries, Christians have created many Jesuses in their own image. This is the essence of Christianity, an ever-evolving religion bearing little resemblance to what it was even a century ago.
The Jesus I hate is the modern, Western Jesus, the American Jesus, the Jesus who has been a part of my life for almost fifty-eight years. The Jesuses of bygone eras have no power to harm me, but the modern Jesus – the Jesus of the three hundred thousand Christian churches that populate every community in America – he has the power to affect my life, hurt my family, and destroy my country. And I, with a vengeance, hate him.
As you can see, I don’t hate God or Jesus. How could I since Jesus is dead and the Christian God is a myth? I don’t waste my time “hating” dead people or mythical beings. Damn you, Zeus! I hate you! Silly, right? So it is when Evangelicals suggest that I “hate” their peculiar version of the Christian God. What I hate is what is done is the name of the Christian God. I hate those who come in the name of Jesus waging war against anyone who dares to believe differently from them. I hate the Christian bigots, racists, and homophobes who use the name of their God to deprive people of justice and equal protection under the law. Evangelicals give me plenty of real flesh-and-blood people and beliefs to hate. Why waste my time hating fictional beings, when so much damage and carnage is being committed by living, breathing Evangelicals. Remember, Evangelicals gave to the world Donald Trump. Need I say more?
This man asks me:
- Do you really want to suffer during judgement day?
- Do you really want to give up eternal life with God?
- Do you really want to give up sitting up there [in Heaven] with your family and friends?
- Do you really want to give up sitting up there [in Heaven] with your Creator?
This man presupposes that I believe that the Christian God is real; that there is a Heaven and Hell; that the Bible God is the creator of everything; that humans are eternal beings; that my family and friends will be in Heaven while I am being tortured by God in Hell.
Of course, I reject his presuppositions out of hand. I have seen no satisfactory evidence for the existence of the Bible God, nor have I seen any adequate evidence for the existence of Heaven or Hell. If this man has evidence for these claims, he needs to present it. Not that he can or will. I am no longer a newly minted atheist. I am a grizzled veteran of countless battles with God’s chosen ones. I think I can safely say that I have heard every possible argument used by Evangelical apologists to prove the existence of their God; to prove that their God is the creator of the universe; to prove that all humans are sinful and in need of salvation; to prove that Heaven or Hell awaits every human — past, present, and future — depending on whether they are saved/born-again/elect. I find none of their arguments persuasive, and often, I find them laughable.
Unfortunately, Evangelical zealots fail, either deliberately or out of ignorance, to understand that I know the teachings of Christianity inside and out; that I am quite knowledgeable about the Bible; that I was in the Christian church for fifty years; that I spent twenty-five years pastoring Evangelical churches; that I read and studied the Bible for thousands and thousands of hours; that I devoted myself to following Jesus and teaching others the Bible.
Want to bring me back into the fold, Evangelicals? Want to see me gloriously saved or reclaimed from my backslidden state? You need to come up with better arguments for God/Christianity/the Bible. Just asserting certain things are “true” ain’t going to fly with me.
This man concludes his words to me with an email that says:
Praying for you
Keep in mind, this man read the Comment Policy and Dear Evangelical pages. He knows I really don’t like it when Evangelicals tell me that they are “praying for me.” By all means, if Evangelicals feel “led” by the Holy Spirit to pray for me and the godless readers of this blog, do so. All I ask is that they keep their ceiling prayers to themselves. I don’t need to know about it. However, I suspect that when Evangelicals use the “praying for you” line, they don’t really care what I think. They believe God expects them to say this, so they do. Or, they use “praying for you” like an Evangelical equivalent of “fuck you.” Either way, I really don’t want to hear it.
Let me conclude this post by quoting the infamous atheist and host of The Atheist Experience, Matt Dillahunty: FUCK OFF, DUDE!
And all Loki’s people said, Amen!
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Bruce, you say “ceiling prayers” but all the evangelicals I have ever known, including my former self, always prayed with our heads bowed, eyes closed (of course, though to this day I am not sure why), so should they not rather be called “floor prayers?”
I did not see the original comment that says, “Please stop. It’s one thing to leave God. Another to try and get others too.” so I think perhaps it was written after I visited the post, but this is very similar to something an evangelical friend told me recently. I have struggled with Christian faith to the point that I am not sure what, if anything, I actually believe any more. To paraphrase my friend, he advised that if I could not say something favorable to Christianity, to not say anything at all, as it was bad enough to lose faith in God, but to try to persuade or defend that sinfully rebellious view is just adding to my sin (to his credit, he did not actually say those two words “sinfully rebellious”, but they were there “in between the lines” so to speak). I really think non-Christians should push back against this, because as far as I can tell it is just not true, for all the reasons you stated above.
I am not on a mission to deconvert people, either. Losing my faith has been painful, traumatic, and deeply unsettling, probably because I was deeply fundamentalist and that has formed part of my core identity for a pretty long time. I was a Calvinist and my friend still is (of the five-point Sovereign Grace kind, perhaps nearly hyper-Calvinist), so you can just imagine. Someone might think that not being in control of your salvation or reprobation would lessen the discomfort involved, but I have not found it to be so: you simply cannot know which of the two end results has been divinely decreed. According to our system, and it might have been somewhat of a minority view, as you expressed in other blog posts someone could still be “saved” though an atheist (or at least a pre-converted member of the elect) though simply being non-elect and gradually more reprobate in this life according to the righteous decree of God, who for some reason decided to make that evident before the end of life rather than after. The entire theological system is entirely distasteful if you are not an adherent of it, and even then, if you stop and think about it too much, like I did, it brings very painful thoughts to mind that cannot be easily resolved, if ever. Which is why I love reading your blog posts as they are proving to be therapeutic to me, and knowing that you know exactly what I just talked about “theologically” (put in quotes, because if none of it is real, then it essentially just becomes religious lingo with a lot of sophistication thrown in).
His comments were deleted because he used three different fake names and email addresses. I don’t approve comments of people who use fake email addresses.
Using three different fake names and email addresses is an impressive display of integrity, so I am completely mystified why you would react that way, Bruce. /s (Yeesh, takes all kinds to make the world, I guess…)
Today, he used three more fake names and email addresses. Not sure what he hopes to gain by doing this other than irritating the Jesus out of me.
Another judgmental asshole? I’m sick of these people, as they claim God “loves us” so he’s going to burn us in hell for not believing. Once again, I also say, FUCK OFF.
comment deleted for not following commenting rules, including using a fake email address and a fake name.
I meant to add: the strange thing is, if I met him in person I’d be kind, because I’m usually kind to my fellow person. But I’ve seen so much crap directed toward you, Bruce, that it is really raising all my hackles all the time, so to speak. IOW, I have no patience for shitty behavior on social media or blogs or comments.
Maybe I am childish, but I enjoy inserting a silly name everywhere these folks use “God” or “Jesus”.
They just can’t help themselves, can they, Bruce? They always have to threaten you with hell. Always.
I don’t have any interest in trying to deconvert people from their religion. I just want them to leave me the fuck alone and stop trying to use our government and courts to force their fucking authoritarian rules on me.
comment deleted for not following commenting rules, including using a fake email address and a fake name.
Reminds me of that time that (singer and Fundie) Pat Boone had harsh words for Saturday Night Live about making a joke about “God’s Not Dead 2” with bakers who wouldn’t make a wedding cake for a gay couple. There are seemingly endless channels of slick televangelists selling Jesus Inc., yet one joke about the absurdity of religion is going too far. And why is Saturday Night Live doing political satire about Christianity? Because the insufferable right wing Jesus has become extremely political. Unfortunately, by pushing their religion into the public sphere, it is necessary to eradicate religion to ensure separation of church and state. If religion ceases to be a personal choice, and becomes a political mandate the whole thing has to go.
comment deleted for not following commenting rules, including using a fake email address and a fake name.
If my admittedly limited experience provides any lessons, one of them is that atheists and agnostics are not interested in destroying other people’s faith or getting them to “convert “ to non-belief, or even uncertainty about the existence of God. For most of us, our non-belief or uncertainty is simply the best answer we could get to our honest inquiry.
I cringe whenever Evangelicals or Fundamentalists (of Christianity or any other belief system) whine about their “religious liberty” being violated. That phrase is usually a code for the freedom to impose their beliefs and lifestyles on others. They simply can’t or won’t understand why people wouldn’t believe as they do, whether about the inerracy of their scriptures or the “tricknology” of folks like Dr. Anthony Fauci.
That’s a good point. To use an analogy, kids don’t stop believing in Santa Claus because they hate Santa or Santa hurt them. It is normal to give up childish things. The reason for the evangelist’s objection is clear. It doesn’t take a lot of unbelief in a culture to eradicate all belief. The tenuous hold that religion has in the culture depends on universal acceptance. Otherwise God goes the way of Santa and other imaginary friends.
Hi Bruce,
I do have a question for you and was curious on your answer.
I know you know the scriptures as far as what they say, so you will most likely have an answer.
Based on the scriptures concerning blasphemy it is my understanding from past teachings that blasphemy definition by Pharisee’s was saying that a person could forgive sins or someone claiming to be God. Jesus then talked about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and no forgiveness.
Based on these few scriptures, in your opinion from what you know of your past Bible teachings, do you think that you have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit? Not because of your walking away, but rather by the things that you have said? I am asking based on your knowledge of what the Bible says, not whether you believe in the Bible today.
Hopefully I have worded this respectfully enough for an answer.
I will answer your questions in an upcoming blog post. Thanks for asking.
Bruce
Here ya go:
http://brucegerencser.net/2020/10/bruce-have-you-committed-the-unpardonable-sin/
I too, am disgusted by the conduct of this person, who only has the threat of hell to fall back on. Most likely from the American South, and a middle-aged or older White man. I see this category of individual as Useless Chrysters, because far from inspiring interest in Jesus or God, the have the opposite effect, driving people away. Since they are going nameless, I’ll address them as U.C. Dear U.C., I want YOU to know that he isn’t driving anyone to abandoning their faith– what’s responsible for THAT is your American Jesus, your Anglo- Jesus, who launched genocide, land theft and slavery ! And the way you have promoted said Jesus, since your I’ll arrived here 500 years ago. If someone leaves the fold, at least in this part of the world, abuse is the main reason, and until the Internet, where one could find other survivors, you usually had to keep it to yourself. You have absolutely no right to demand Bruce, or other bloggers to stay silent !! People are writing books,articles, or blogging about their experiences. I’m not an atheist myself, for one. I understand the concept though. This site is for us survivors of religious abuse, crimes of various sorts. It serves a purpose in that regard. If you are in any way abusive to others- kids, wives, employees,etc., no one expects you to understand where we are coming from. Are you a follower of the Pearls, Reb Bradley, Tedd Tripp, David Barton,et al ?? This posting of your is no surprise. All those people give Jesus, of Bible game, a black eye ! Bruce didn’t. Ditto for Columbus and those who came after. Bruce isn’t ruining the reputation of the Bible or God. The Chrysters are. America is now the most hated of modern countries, thanks to propping up dictators, and evil corporations. Which is emphatically defended by Chryster commenters. For someone who has helped defend this nation, this is beyond outrageous ! If you want the criticism to stop, then stop being the problem. That means, to not act like the creeps profiled on this site,and to weed out the jerks and protect the vulnerable. Think you can do that ? Or are you still determined to be a typical U.C. ? Bruce has asked for concrete proof that what he once believed in, is actually true. Your homework assignment is to get to work on this then.
Byroniac’s Outlook is basically where I stand also. To U.C. I say this,a quote from Gandhi — be the change you want to see.
Bob, while I’m not speaking for Bruce here, I am certain that he has NOT blasphemed the Holy Spirit. He said before, that if God manifested in some form , and it was definite enough, he would respond. I recall many U.C. types gleefully proclaiming that he did this and was doomed,etc. And they’d leave tirades about this in the comment section.
Yulya, l would agree as far as the part of what the Pharasee’s view of blasphemy and I don’t think Bruce as a minister or atheist would have said he has the power to forgive sins or claim he is God.
I am asking more of what his belief was as a pastor concerning the scriptures definition of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and based on his past pastoral belief, does he think he has committed this sin since his conversion to atheism and not because he converted, but more in the since of something he may have said against the Holy Spirit directly.
In my upbringing in church, this topic was always a little confusing and still today you may hear different variations of what this unforgivable sin is. The views I have heard have ranged from walking away from God to saying the wrong thing. Some Christians would live in fear of have I done this? So, I was just curious on Bruce’s opinion.
Ok..first, I don’t think anyone “converts” to atheism. I think former Christians have deconverted. Or, as I prefer to say, escaped.
Second, and I’m just gonna say it bluntly. This is a stupid question. Why would an atheist think they have sinned…I mean..they are an atheist. Maybe I don’t understand, but you sorta have to believe in a deity in order to believe you have sinned against the deity.
It’s hard to blaspheme something that doesn’t exist. Do I blaspheme leprechauns when I say I don’t believe in them? I don’t really know or care.
I must apologize on behalf of Grammar Gramma… she knows not of what she speaks when bringing leprechauns into the fray… Dear leprechauns are every bit as real as you and me and you do agree that the you and the me are real, right? Gramma Grammar is entering her dotage and cannot be held to account in such matters. Dear Leppy’s please understand and don’t play tricks of retribution. Surely Bruce Almighty with take this one on and ban Grammar for at least the weekend!
Quick they’re after me Lucky Charms. That surely is all the proof you need to know leprechauns are real, right? ?
Keep telling your story, anyone who says to stop obviously has an agenda in trying to silence you.
Grammar Gramma, I believe you have missed the entire point.
I’m not sure, Bob. GG doesn’t believe in the Bible being inspired, so to her, it is a collection fairy tales. I get it. When Christians start to drone on about biblical events as if they really happened (Creation, Exodus, Job etc etc) it becomes tedious. Most of the Bible is composed of myths, of stories that ancient peoples told even before the Bible (esp. OT) was written, albeit with different names and different gods.
Christians always seem to think that bitterness or pain cause people to leave their faith, but that often not true. People leave because they decide the faith is not valid. In my case, I decided I could not be in a faith the actively tries to legislate people like me into non-existence. Christianity has been the cause of a lot of suffering in this world and in the United States. Far to many things were, and are, justified by using the bible.
Logic also played a role for me. The deeper you look at the history and teachings, the less sense it makes. I realized that the bible is confusing because it is not logical, and not because it’s so hard and complicated.
Sage,
First off, left, deconverted, converted to, escaped, Whatever, that was not the point of the question.
Secondly, thank you for the insult of saying it was a Stupid Question. Bruce had no issue with the question and went into great detail of explaining his position, which I appreciated.
I find it ironic that I read of people here complaining about Christians blogging and being judgemental towards Bruce or atheists. Then when I come with a question, which I know Bruce will very likely understand where I am coming from, that you basically tell me to shut up. Do you not want any dialog with Christians here? Seems pretty narrow minded to me. A no win situation unless I believe as you do?
Bob. I didn’t intend to offend, I just thought the question had no logic. I should have used a word other that stupid – perhaps illogical would have been a better choice. It just made no sense to me to ask an atheist If they believe they have sinned? I was not calling you stupid and am sorry that my word choice sounded that way.
I should also point out I never told you to shut up – you added that part on your own. In fact, I left it open for you to explain by telling you that perhaps I don’t understand. Of course you responded by calling me narrow minded and claiming I want you to believe like me, which is not true. The true irony here is that you call someone who challenges your question “narrow minded.” So I put it back to you, if you don’t want someone challenging your questions, why come here to ask questions then insult someone when they respond?
With regard to narrow mindedness, let me just make it clear to you. When Christians decide they can let me live my life, without trying to pass laws against people like me, telling me how I should look, live, or behave, or generally judge me as perverted,sick, freak ( pick your favorite term here, I have heard them all), then I will leave them alone and let them believe as they desire.
And as for a no win situation, why don’t you try a life where you decide to be who you really are (and face the very real dangers that go with that choice) OR choose to pretend to be what my Christian dominated country expects me to be (and suffer the pain and issues that come with this choice). That is a true no win situation. By comparison, debates over religion are far down my list.
So, until Christians can just live and believe as they desire while not insisting others believe like them, I will consider Christians in general as narrow minded. I do admit to being narrow minded about intolerance in the religious world and the world in general. The irony is that I am willing to accept Christians living in my world and letting them live as they please, even though I am evil, perverted, blah blah. But Christians, who are full of goodness and love will not, in general, allow me to live in their world. I will gladly stop holding negative views of christians if they would just stop their hatred toward people like me.
While Sage probably could have worded that differently, Bob do you not recognize the point about how baffling the question would be to some agnostics/atheists? It’s kind of like asking a Christian whether they think they’ve blasphemed against Allah (or the equivalent question to a Muslim). Why would the individual in question think they’ve blasphemed against the doctrine of some other group? For emphasis that’s no idle statement–historically there have been members of minority sects/religious groups who have been killed for contravening blasphemy laws set by the dominant group in their region. Some are even counted as martyrs by their respective sects.
Now I know you didn’t mean it that way–and I do find Bruce’s take on the matter to be very interesting–but keep in mind that you (carefully) asked a loaded question, which can easily be taken the wrong way. Personally, I think accusations of blasphemy and blasphemy laws intrinsically contain a tribal and political aspect to them, overshadowing whatever spiritual rationale they may have. It’s interesting to hear other takes on the matter, though.
“Bruce, Please Stop Telling Your Story.”
Answer him with something like this.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke
When he objects, ask if Christianity mostly succeeds by threatening people with a fate worse than death, and it works best if they can do it while they are still children. That’s a stated goal of some child evangelism ministries, get-em while they’re young, in the 4 to 14 window.
They are proud of scaring the hell out of children.
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. – Proverbs 22:6
It’s in the bible so this is for the good of the child, right?
Umm..no, it’s not. It can create a lifetime of challenges.
It might have been Aristotle who said (paraphrase) Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.
The jesuits were known to use that sort of phrase to state that the early years are key, foundational and lifelong in repercussions. Sage is right. When the hammer hits the nail on the head again and again, the nail tends to fix itself in place forever. I am 68 years old and in some fashion still dismantling, renovating the life that began as the middle child of a fundagelical pastor who married a pastor’s daughter and made little Baptist babies. But let me say, Proverbs 22:6 is accurate for me only if understood in the sense of my renovations: I have long ago departed from the way I was raised, thank goodness. I continue to depart from it, is what I am saying and I think all of us who have been similarly raised up, do this in some manner or other. Freedom is not an end but a welcome beginning. I keep beginning.