Earlier today, I received an email from an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) zealot named Noah Zielke. Zielke ignored my requests on the Contact Page and emailed me anyway. What follows is my response to him. Best I can tell, Zielke is a computer science major at the University of Alabama. I do give him credit for reading some of my autobiographical material, along with a few posts about the IFB church movement.
My response is indented and italicized.
A smattering of thoughts I had while reading your blog:
I believe that you probably did believe and are therefore my brother in Christ,
Well, I am sure glad you stopped by my blog to let me know that I was and still am a Christian. You need to get together with your fellow believers and hold a meeting to decide whether I am really a Christian. You see, Christians can’t agree on this matter. One group says I once was saved and now I am lost. Another group says that I never was saved. And yet another group, the one you are part of, says that I am still a Christian. I consider your position the most absurd of them of all. While morally and ethically my life is likely as good as or better than yours, there’s nothing in my life that remotely suggests that I am in any way, shape, or form a Christian. I reject the central claims of Christianity, believing that Jesus was human, not divine; that he lived and died, end of story. I reject the claim that the Bible is in any way an authoritative, supernatural text. I would be glad to interact with you on the nature and history of the Bible. I assume you believe the Bible is inspired, inerrant, and infallible — claims which cannot be rationally sustained. (If you have not read any of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books on the text of the Bible, I encourage you to do so. I will even buy one of Ehrman’s books for you to read and have it shipped to you free of charge.)
You and I are most certainly not “brothers.” I have one brother and two half-brothers. Last I knew, you weren’t on my genealogy tree. Though . . . my biological father did get around a bit, so we could be related. Please submit your DNA to ancestry.com and let me know if we are a match.
though I’m surprised God hasn’t killed you yet (Hebrews 12:6).
God hasn’t killed me for one reason and one reason alone: he doesn’t exist. The fact that I can write the things I do without your God saying anything suggests that she either agrees with me, is on vacation, taking a shit (1 Kings 18 — I can do Bible proof texts too), or is dead. Since, according to you, Jesus is God, and we know he is very much dead, lying buried somewhere on the Judean hillside, I am going with God is dead.
I have no doubt that I will one day die, likely sooner than later. My death certificate will not say: cause of death — God. I am sure it will likely say: cause of death — gastroparesis or heart attack or diabetes or blow to head with cast iron skillet wielded by my wife. Granted, whenever I die, IFB zealots will claim that God killed me, judging me for my sins and unbelief. Too bad I won’t be around to read what they have to say. By then I will have been reduced to ashes and spread along the eastern shore of Lake Michigan. I shall end up in the same place as you will, Noah. There is no Heaven, no Hell, no afterlife. Just the here and now, as Solomon so wisely and eloquently stated.
Let me give you a piece of advice that can be found on my About Page:
You have one life. There is no heaven or hell. There is no afterlife. You have one life, it’s yours, and what you do with it is what matters most. Love and forgive those who matter to you and ignore those who add nothing to your life. Life is too short to spend time trying to make nice with those who will never make nice with you. Determine who are the people in your life that matter and give your time and devotion to them. Live each and every day to its fullest. You never know when death might come calling. Don’t waste time trying to be a jack of all trades, master of none. Find one or two things you like to do and do them well. Too many people spend way too much time doing things they will never be good at.
Here’s the conclusion of the matter. It’s your life and you best get to living it. Someday, sooner than you think, it will be over. Don’t let your dying days be ones of regret over what might have been.
Maybe you’re God’s punishment on stupid people.
It’s evident your momma didn’t raise you right, that you lack basic decency and respect for other people. This is a common trait among IFB Christians. What kind of person goes around calling people he disagrees with “stupid”?
This blog is read by lots of people, many of whom have college educations. Doctors, lawyers, dentists, psychologists, managers, preachers, evangelists, missionaries, teachers, engineers, professors, along with all sorts of “smart” people, regardless of their education level. That said, my focus has never been on the intellectual acumen of the readers of this blog. When people comment on this blog, I don’t check their education levels first. “Smart” and “stupid” are subjective terms, most often used in a pejorative sense.
Personally, I prefer that people just show me how “smart” or “stupid’ they are, you know, like you did in your email to me.
You should understand (and I know you probably do) that the reason the IFB hates you is because they believe that you are contributing to people burning in Hell forever. How, logically, is someone supposed to treat such an one.
No, IFB Christians “hate” me because it is in their DNA to do so. They have been indoctrinated and conditioned to “hate” anyone who thinks, believes, or lives differently from them. (Please see IFB “Love”.)
Please stop using the words “logic” and “logically.” It’s evident you don’t know what these words mean. Is it “logical” to believe virgins have babies, ghosts impregnate women, humans walk on water, turn water into wine, or teleport (sorry Star Trek isn’t real in case you didn’t know), or come back to life after they have been dead for three days? Is it “logical” to believe that an ancient religious text is some sort of supernatural book written by a supernatural God whom no one has ever seen or talked to; that humans are expected to obey and practice every word found in its pages? (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.)
Heaven and Hell, along with sin, judgment, and salvation, are religious constructs used by sects, churches, and clerics to keep asses in the seats and money in the plates. Preachers use fear and guilt to coerce people into getting saved. “Saved” from what, exactly? Humans aren’t sinful, broken, or depraved. Such thinking is a 2,000 year long con used to feed the voracious power and control appetites of Christian sects and churches.
There’s a better way, Noah. Seek and ye shall find . . .
How did Jesus say Christians are to treat their enemies? (Sermon on the Mount.) Can you not see that you have been taught a warped understanding of “love”? Having been raised in the IFB church movement and pastoring IFB churches for years, I know people are taught a warped, perverse sense of “love.” It’s a love that hates. If the goal is to win me back to Jesus, what is the best way to do so? Surely, hurling hateful invectives my way will only drive me farther away from Jesus. Whatever happened, Noah, to following in the steps of Jesus? You know, WWJD?
I have been attacked, savaged, and abused by countless Evangelical Christians over the years. IFB Christians are the worst, by far. Nasty, arrogant, self-righteous, showing little to no love for their fellow man. I have concluded that getting “saved” makes no appreciable difference in people’s lives; that Christian Fundamentalism breeds people who have little evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in their lives: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith (Galatians 5).
Sure, I have met a handful of loving, kind, thoughtful Christians. However, they are the exceptions to the rule. After fourteen years and thousands and thousands of emails, social media messages, and blog comments from the followers of Jesus, I can safely conclude that, for the most part, Christianity is bankrupt, that it doesn’t deliver what it promises.
Abiogenesis is anti-science, anti-common sense, and illogical.
I have not written one post on abiogenesis — not one. I am not a scientist, neither are you — reading Ken Ham’s blog doesn’t make you a scientist. I do have readers, however, who have science training. If they are so inclined, perhaps one or more of them will respond to your assertions.
Jesus was either God, or a lunatic. You seem to now think he was just a good man and the bad bits are embellishments? If even 10% of what he said was true, and he wasn’t God, then he was a quack and liar (ex – Mark 14:7 – spend the money on me, not the poor).
Sigh, CS Lewis. You seem to leave out the position that Jesus could have been a well-intentioned apocalyptic preacher; a “mere human” who ran afoul of the Roman government and got himself killed. We have no idea about who or what Jesus actually was. Jesus wrote no books of the Bible, left behind no writings, and the words attributed to him were written down by unknown authors 30-90 years after his death. If you have actual evidence that anything attributed to Jesus in the Bible actually happened or was said, I would love to see it. I’m confident that no evidence will be forthcoming. Once again, I encourage you to read several of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books. His books will disabuse you of your Fundamentalist beliefs about the Bible.
Believing that life can arise from purely naturalistic processes isn’t just intellectually dishonest, it’s insane, absurd, stupidity.I realize 3 & 5 are basically the same.
Please see my response to your third statement. Why did you feel the need to repeat this statement twice?
Are you a creationist? Do you believe Genesis 1-3 is literal history; that the universe was created in six 24 hour days; that the universe is 6,024 years old; that Adam and Eve were the first humans; that dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time as humans? I assume the answer to these questions is yes. If so, I will refrain from saying such beliefs are intellectually dishonest, insane, absurd, and stupid. I wouldn’t want to offend you by saying you are intellectually dishonest, insane, absurd, and stupid. My momma taught me not to call people names, but some of the readers of this blog might say creationism (young, old, or theistic) is intellectually dishonest, insane, absurd, and stupid. With fingers crossed behind my back, I apologize for their rudeness . . . though their conclusions are based on scientific observation.
I enourage you to get a sound science education. Then you will be in a position to intellegently talk about these things. It’s important, Noah, to know what we don’t know.
From,
Noah
From Bruce, a sinner saved by reason.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Creationism is dishonest, insane, absurd, and stupid! 😂
Seriously though, everything about the earth and about the universe that we have learned since man first began asking questions has been found to be naturalistic. Early mankind didn’t have access to the kinds of resource, and knowledge, that we have today and so gods were invented (different cultures inventing different gods is a clue) to try and explain things that weren’t understood, from thunderstorms to leprosy. Today we have a much better understanding of nature, and we can see that looking for supernatural explanations is pointless because it never, not once, increases our knowledge. Yet somehow people insist on clinging to primitive, superstitious beliefs. Creationism is one of them. To the ignorant it can appear to solve problems that science struggles with, but a little thought reveals that this is entirely illusory. Creationism isn’t even as advanced as being a hypothesis, as it’s not testable in any way, but more especially it has no explanatory ability. Evolution science has the ability to explain life on earth as it exists in minute detail, from laryngeal nerves to gills in fish, or whatever feature you choose throughout the natural world. Even without the massive fossil record evolution is undoubtedly true.
As for abiogenesis, it follows that this must necessarily be the basis on which life came about initially. There’s no evidence to suggest that life was caused supernaturally (by magic is a more honest way of putting it) so we must pursue naturalistic origins. The conditions in which life was created are almost impossible to reproduce now, but huge progress has been made in studying and trying to understand them, to the extent that we are now able to see the way in which the building blocks of life, particularly the creation of amino acids, came about through chemical processes. In short, so long as supernatural methods for the creation of life remain both unevidenced and lacking a coherent framework, then any solution to the creation of life must be naturalistic. We call it abiogenesis, and it’s not stupid or illogical.
Well, Noah, you are only one in a string of fundies who come along and wish ill upon Bruce. Not ONE of you believes in the Sermon on the Mount, or the parable of the goats and sheep, or of the Good Samaritan. Instead you threaten and attack everyone who isn’t like you: fundie/evangelical, Christian, Republican, nationalist, and most likely fascist. You aren’t the Moral Majority, as you have sold your souls for power over love. Fuck off, Noah.*
*I would word my comment more politely, except you are vicious and nasty to Bruce. So don’t come back crying that we are mean. FAFO.
Noah, as someone who had many of the same beliefs as you did as a college student, please consider availing yourself of the knowledge of top notch scientists by taking a biology class or an anthropology class at your university. At your age, I was scared to take one of those courses (a) because I was afraid of Satan leading me astray and (b) my fundamentalist Christian education left me with incredible holes in my education, and I was embarrassed that professors and fellow students might find that out. I worked in a biochemistry lab, surrounded by world renowned researchers at all levels, and not ONCE did I feel comfortable asking any of them for explanations about evolution or the age of the earth. For YEARS I have regretted this.
If your faith and your religion are so ironclad they should withstand evidence otherwise. Apparently, some part of you knows that they are not. Or you’re just scared like I was, maybe embarrassed at your ignorance like I was. Even as a 7th grader I could see that the arguments for young earth creationism were lame at best in the face of mountains of evidence otherwise. “Satan is deceiving all scientists” really is a silly, lame answer.
Noah, just so you know, engaging in discussions can be rewarding for both parties. Researching is excellent for human growth. Coming to an atheist blog and telling the writer that you don’t know why he isn’t dead yet, implying that you think he should be, is not appropriate. Stating that his readers are all stupid is also not appropriate. I hope at the University of Alabama, a fine academic institution (go SEC, I am a Vanderbilt grad), you will learn more critical thinking skills and engage with other people’s ideas without using ad hominem attacks, circular reasoning, or any other logical fallacies.
Please take advantage of Bruce’s offer to read one of Dr Bart Ehrman’s books.
I wish you success at your university. Please do not shy away from a world class education because you believe in spirits, boogeyman, and angry invisible deities. Look at the evidence without fear. Take care.
Maybe people aren’t understanding the Christian view of “chastening” by God – my theology indicates that he should be dead, having been a Christian who believed in Jesus Christ and now vehemently repudiates Christianity. This is a standard belief as God killed believers for various sins in Scripture (1 Cor 11:29-32, Acts 5:5, 5:10, etc.).
I don’t hate Bruce nor would I kill him if I had the chance to and no one would find out. Neither do I wish death on him. Logically, given what I believe, I was stating that I was surprised that God had not killed him yet.
Thank you for your otherwise irenic response.
Your theology is BS, Noah. Maybe you should just dump it and join the rest of us in the real world.
We don’t care about your “Christian theology” as an excuse for saying something vicious. Pretty it up all you want, you just want to inflict fear on others over your god.
You tell him, BJW!!! I can’t believe this guy’s defense of the indefensible. 😳
Noah. You do a disservice to logic with your comments.
Noah is quite a cultist. I do love how some Christians cite scripture wondering why their god hasn’t killed someone yet.
Now, Hebrews 12 has this ” Consider him who endured such hostility against himself from sinners,[c] so that you may not grow weary or lose heart. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children—
“My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, or lose heart when you are punished by him;6 for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts.””
We see no disciplining or chastising since we know that christians pick and choose what they want to follow and this god does nothing about that. So, poor ol’ Yahweh is doesn’t seem to exist, as Bruce noted.
as usual, Noah is the usual nutless wonder, with sadistic fantasies that will never come true.
Bruce, I just concluded Kenneth R. Miller’s Finding Darwin’s God, a long, difficult, beautifully written book that expounds the truthfullness of Darwinian evolution. Mr. Miller also is a Catholic believer in God and spends quite a few pages harmonizing science and faith. (Hint: it’s faith). I wondered if you have read this book or anything by Miller. This book is work — a slow read but very thought-provoking. I am also reading Lost Christianities by Ehrman, a much easier read and fascinating. Best to you this Solstice Season. Glenn
“Believing that life can arise from purely naturalistic processes isn’t just intellectually dishonest, it’s insane, absurd, stupidity.I realize 3 & 5 are basically the same.”
These are the words of someone who doesn’t understand what life is, in the scientific sense, I think. I admit that I’ve never taken a biology class; I’m just trained as a geologist. But I understand the scientific method of understanding how the universe works, and know how carefully all of the scientific disciplines build on their own and each others’ work. If biologists say that the most likely explanation for the origin of life is abiogenesis, and they have plenty of discoveries to back up that assertion, I’m not going to argue.
In short, Noah doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but that doesn’t keep him from disparaging people who do. Way to go there, Noah. Speaking as a former computer engineer and engineering manager, I pity the people in your professional future who will need to work with you, or worse, manage you.
Noah, you and the other death- loving Fundies keep forgetting that MANY Christians read Bruce’s blog,and they haven’t been affected in such ways that they’d give up the faith. If anything, they’re more likely to give up the faith if offend d enough, by fellow believers !! He’s not some ” punishment” for stupid people. That sure sounds childish on your part. Faith that can’t stand up to scrutiny is very weak. You and the others in the ” Peanut Gallery” need to grow up !
Noah, like many who comment here, I was a ‘born again believer, who accepted jesus as my personal saviour and worked my socks off in evangelism for decades till I saw the complete fiction of my faith. Personally, I couldn’t trust those who insisted that to be a True Believer who was Washed In The Blood Of the Lamb, there were add-ons. One was that I also had to be a creationist to get my reward in heaven, other preachers told me I had to be actively pro-Israel or receive the Pensacola blessing and gibber like an ape in worship to be allowed through those pearly gates. Heck, one even told me I should be veggie, whilst another said Real Men weren’t getting saved in our church cos our church lunches didn’t serve enough manly red meat. So which version of faith should I subscribe to? John 14v6, Jesus-only isn’t enough apparently. Taking a wild guess here, I imagine you believe Your Version and Your Version Alone is the right one, the pure doctrine brand that will give a x-tian eternal life whilst all the others you don’t approve of get tipped into the lake of fire with us heathens. Well, ha ha ha to that rubbish!
Noah, you lie to yourself and then use your lies to tell more lies about your imaginary all-powerful. Imagine if you sat in a room alone, as you are, and accepted your humanity. Imagine just telling the truth and accepting that you are human and not the guy who crucified somebody. Imagine that you could care for yourself and others without self-disgust imposed on you from beyond…
(Give it a try sometime and come back to thank Bruce for caring about human beings and not lying to himself and others.)
As expected the old fella who believes he is a teacher has more to say about Bruce over at https://theologyarchaeology.wordpress.com/
“#3. The beam
We are writing this as BG continues his Black collar series. He likes to point out the ‘sins’ of Christians even though he declares there is no such thing as sin.
But, pointing out other people’s mistakes, errors in judgment, and other problems doesn’t help anyone. It only makes the person doing look bad, hate-filled, and antagonistic.
It doesn’t help their reputation either and only inflames the problems between believer and unbeliever. We suggest that atheists and BG start removing the beams from their eyes. maybe then they would see Christians in a better light.
They may not want to as they may find out the truth that they are wrong and that may scare them to an early grave.”
Nice guy… real Christian, huh? The writer of this blog (theologyarcheology) has the Christian virus, the one that accuses others and claims to love them while blatantly threatening them. ‘Oh no! Wait,’ says the Christian lover: ‘It isn’t me at all but the guy upstairs whom ‘we’ say we serve. The big guy! He’s saying it! I’m just the messenger…’
Like Noah, this man lies to himself and imposes his lies on others and calls it love. Sheesh. It’s disheartening to think that he was a teacher allowed access to children… but then, these deluded people just love to get there hands on young and impressionable minds so they can fill them with rubbish. Thank goodness for the internet, the options that can save kids from these blind proselytizers. Not satisfied to simply enjoy their ‘God’, they passionately inflict sick ideas on others for years and years. Dr. David Tee, you are just another biped like the rest of us. Why can’t you go about your daily life and leave others be? Why can’t you do something useful, volunteer where you are to help those nearby and stop preaching at people as if you were different and knew something special. Quit wasting your life hating yourself and others… go do some honest good in the world. Do you even know were the local soup-kitchen is? I’m so tired of useless preacher-types who literally get in the way of people tryting to help others, take other’s money for silly books, think of themselves as informed and needed. The doctor laments in his latest notes regarding ‘ageism’ and how younger people are desired over the older ones in teaching. Thank goodness they get rid of older guys like this! Thank GOODNESS!
I’m thinking this might be a candidate for the Salem Hypothesis, the observed correlation between the engineering trade and creationist beliefs. Obviously a college student isn’t quite an engineer yet, but looks like that’s the path he is on. The exact mechanisms for abiogenesis aren’t certain so,…maybe he accepts evolution? (I would find that interesting/surprising if he did.) Reminds me of the ramblings of Dr. James Tour an organic chemist that works for the Discovery Institute. He’ll go on and on about abiogenesis, but if you let him talk long enough evolution is next.
Well, – I – wouldn’t hire a computer engineer like Noah Zielke, who couldn’t be arsed to follow the specification document (in this case, Bruce’s instructions to Evangelical Christians on the Contact page). Sounds to me like Noah is butthurt about his e-mail being made public (again, an egregious reading comprehension problem on Mr. Zielke’s part) and is trying to excuse away his shameful behaviour.
https://www.ruckmanism.org/ I have an idea, which might be mistaken, about why Noah Zielke might have contacted Mr. Gerencser. When I decided to check out the website Ruckmanism. org I noticed that one of the more recent commenters was someone by the name of Noah Zielke. I don’t know if it is the same person. The reason I checked that particular website was due to ” No women in heaven” entry in a previous post By Mr. Gerencser. in which he linked to the Ruckmanism.org website. I’m going to be a bit sarcastic in response to Mr.Zielke’s comment about why God has not struck Mr. Gerencser dead yet. If God didn’t strike Peter Ruckman Sr. ( Two divorces, three times married) dead until Peter Ruckman Sr. reached the age of 94, Then God might not be all that quick sometimes at smiting some people with death.
It is highly obvious that Bruce’s heart was never transformed by the Holy Spirit.
A person can preach and profess Christ and still be lost if they are not trusting in him alone.
I’m not his judge but from what I have read it appears bruce was trusting in good morals and his work as a minister. Rather than the shed blood of Jesus Christ through his death,burial and resurrection.
Salvation is by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
He suffered for you! He had his beard tore out his flesh beaten to shreds and spikes driven through his hands and feet.
He hung on the cross is agony for 6 hrs. Died to pay the penalty for sin and three days later rose again to give you eternal life.
Now the Bible talks about the great falling away in the last days. Does that describe Bruce?
I do not know.
God’s Word says he remains faithful to us even if we lose faith in him for he cannot deny himself.
I sincerely hope that Bruce was truly saved and just fell into deep satanic deception and will only lose eternal rewards and not his soul.
TRUTH IS:
For the follower of Jesus Christ this cesspool of a sinful world that is getting worse by the day is the only hell we will ever know!
For the lost person (atheist,Anti-Christian,those trapped in false religions, those trying to earn salvation through good works and religion) this sick world is the only heaven they will ever know 😭
And if you continue with the choice to live and trust in your sinful self and reject the grace of Christ I strongly suggest you had best try to stay healthy and alive for as long as you can!
On the death bed spit,fart ,scream ,rip the sheets tear the pillow , chew the pillow ,etc to do whatever it takes to stay alive in this world! Because once you slip all the way through you will be in torment unimaginable and will wish your parents never did the deed!
My response:
http://brucegerencser.net/2021/12/bruce-carolyn-and-obstaclechick-three-peas-in-a-pod-burning-in-hell-forever/
Fred Mullins- you day in this column that Bruce’s heart was never transformed by the Holy Spirit. When seeing that comment, I thought,” look who’s talking!”. Clearly this lack of transformation describes yourself .
https://www.amazon.com/Eternal-Security-Ten-Biblical-Proofs/dp/B0BW2WR9N1 I do not know if this author of this book is the same Noah Zielke as the person who emailed Mr. Gerencser in December of 2021. If it is the same person, the author of this blog only has to spend less than ten dollars to get a copy of this book, or he could just Kindle it for ,99 cents.