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The Southern Baptist Convention and the Roman Catholic Church Kept Us in the Same “Closet”

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Guest Post by MJ Lisbeth

A week and a half ago, Southern Baptist Convention leaders released a list of alleged sex-abuse offenders that had been kept secret. Perhaps it is not fair of me to say that I am not surprised, as I have never had any connection with the SBC. On the other hand, having experienced childhood sexual abuse while serving as an altar boy in the Roman Catholic Church—and hearing whispers about sexual harassment of women and teenaged girls in the Evangelical church of which I was later a part—I don’t think I was being cynical in saying to myself, “Well, what does anybody expect?” upon reading about the SBC report.

Perhaps even less surprising, to me, was the accompanying revelation: victims who alerted church authorities, at whatever level, were advised to “be quiet” or, worse, intimidated into silence. It sounded like an alternate-universe version, if you will, of my own story. Decades passed, and the priest who abused me died, before I spoke or wrote about my experience. For one thing, I had neither the language nor other cultural contexts for telling about what was done to me: there was no open discussion about such matters in the time and place in which I grew up, and priests and other church officials were seen as beyond reproach. In such an environment, even if I knew the names of the parts of my body that priest touched, I could not have told of my ordeal in a way that would have been more credible, in the eyes of my community, than anything that priest—or the priests to whom he reported—could have said. I can’t help but to think that if I could have described what the priest did to me—beyond that “it felt weird”—someone, whether a relative or a father in the church, would have told me to keep my story to myself.

That nobody had to tell me not to tell—at least at that time in my life—is a testament to, not only the esteem in which priests in the church were held in my community, but also the power the Church has wielded. It also says something about how powerless I was. Perhaps the most important lesson I have learned from carrying my sexual abuse, alone—and, years later, seeing children bearing their burdens without a champion or mentor—is that nothing is more damaging than inculcating, or allowing a child to grow up, with a sense that their reality—or, more importantly, what they have to say about it—is not to be trusted or believed.

For that matter, invalidation of the fear, anger or whatever else one might feel about having been violated—which, by definition, is done by someone with more power or, at least, credibility—serves only to further traumatize the victim. That is what SBC officials did when they told people to “be quiet.” That is what my parish, and larger Church officials, could just as well have done after I was abused by a priest. 

So, while the abuse I experienced as an altar boy in a Roman Catholic parish in Brooklyn, New York in the 1960s is different from what girls and women in the Southern Baptist Convention endured, we have this much in common: we suffered in silence for too long as a result of churches that were more interested in preserving their “institutional integrity” than in helping those of us who have been victimized. That silence—my “closet,” if you will—hindered my development in so many ways, not the least of which is that I didn’t affirm my identity as a woman until my mid-40s. I can only wish that those whom the SBC told to “keep quiet” didn’t lose as much—time, or anything else—by remaining in a “closet” I know all too well.

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Bruce Gerencser, 65, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 44 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

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82 Comments

  1. Avatar
    ObstacleChick

    I did grow up in the Southern Baptist church, and I can say that this report does not surprise me at all. While I don’t remember EVER hearing anyone say anything about sexual abuse in the church, there was a certain undertone that we would use regarding certain people around whom we were uncomfortable. While no one came out and said, “Brother So-and-So is a sexual predator”, we all knew to stay out of reach of Brother So-and-So. Everyone understood that we shouldn’t say anything directly sp as not to harm the guy’s family, or worse, to harm the reputation of the church. So we all played our little avoidance games and stayed alert.

    • Avatar
      clubschadenfreude

      Mark, you claim you try not to judge but you have no problem in worshipping a god that says that anyone who disagrees with it deserves death and worse. It’s right from your holy book that Christians get this harmful bullshit.

        • Avatar
          Bruce Gerencser

          Mark,

          You seem to be operating under the faulty assumption that you can come to a private forum, say whatever you want, and people shouldn’t respond to you. This site is owned by me. It’s governed by rules (which I hope you have read). Typically, Evangelicals are given one opportunity to say whatever they want to say. After that, if they show an ability to play well with others, they will be permitted to comment further, provided they interact with others (who are predominantly atheists, agnostics, pagans, secular humanists, and liberal/progressive Christians). Just spouting of your personal beliefs and expecting people to say nothing doesn’t work around here. I don’t want to be rude, but we are not really interested in your beliefs. Sorry, but thousands of Marks have come before you. You are not going to say anything we haven’t heard countless times before. Transgender 🏳️‍⚧️ people, LGBTQ 🏳️‍🌈 people are sinful, headed for🔥 Hell 🔥. Why, I do declare, Mr. Mark, we’ve never heard such nonsense before. A number of LGBTQ people read this blog and frequent the comment section, so this site is a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah. 😈😈

          So, the reason reason you don’t murder, rape, steal, and molest children is “God”; that if you weren’t saved you would kill, rape, rob, and sexually assault children? JFC, then by all means stay saved, Mark. Your family, neighbors, and coworkers aren’t safe around you unless you are saved.

          If you really want to talk about morality I’m game. Better buckle up. 😂

          • Avatar
            Mark

            I did read the rules, but it’s easy to forget so please excuse me if I sometimes break them. And most of your assumptions of me are wrong. Of course I expect people will respond to what I say. Also, I never raped or killed or did anything like that before I was saved. Neither do my non believing brothers.
            Bruce, read the first comment I posted again. I said I could see why people don’t believe in God. I am not out to convert people, if you and other people take exception to what I say, that’s your problem.

          • Avatar
            Bruce Gerencser

            No, we are all adults. I expect you to keep Bruce Almighty’s Commandments. How hard can it be?

            I take exception to your comments because they are judgmental and ill informed. Numerous attempts have been made to draw you into discussions, without success. In that regard, you and Fake Dr. Tee have much in common.

            One more comment, Mark. Use it wisely, as Jesus the dead son of a non-existent God would have you do.

        • Avatar
          Astreja

          And I think that your belief is full of shit, Mark. Right and wrong are value judgements that can be formulated by anyone. The success of those judgements relies primarily on community acceptance – if one person thinks murder is right and 10,000 others think murder is wrong, that one person is probably not going to be able to make their view stick.

          And a community that does go with the “murder is right” mindset generally falls apart because no one wants to live in such a dangerous place.

          No gods have ever been required for morality.

        • Avatar
          clubschadenfreude

          No, you are not entitled to your beliefs when they are wrong.

          You want to claim that morality comes from your god. You cannot show that this god exists nor that it is the source of morality. Christians cannot agree on what morality this god even wants, you all make it up in your own image.

          Christians also have hte problem that their morality is entirely subjective too, with your acceptance of horrible acts, as long as they are done by your god. Your morality is no more than might equals right.

          There is right and wrong and it is indeed subjective. However, most civilizations accept the same things since these morals support them. So we have laws about personal privacy, personal freedom and ownership.

          Happily, morals change and grow, and have left your ignorant religion long behind.

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      I see you ran into Fake Dr. David Tee at TheologyArcheology. He is, by far, one of the worst Christians I have ever known; a judgmental, self-righteous, arrogant, hateful, mean-spirited, piece of shit. He has repeatedly attacked me, casting all sorts of aspersions my way. I have responded to me numerous times on the site:

      https://brucegerencser.net/tag/dr-david-tee/

      Tee is the single best evangelist for atheism I know. You will find I have not responded kindly to him, at times. Piss in my cornflakes, shit on my doorstep, that’s what you get.

      He would be a good target 🎯 for you to evangelize. If he’s a Christian, everyone is.

      • Avatar
        Mark

        Yeah he was pretty rude to me too. But (warning: you won’t what I am about to say) I do agree with him about transgenderism. But I also agree with you on other matters which is why I subscribed to your blog. I mean your posts about anti rock music preachers are spot on. Certainly Pastor Joe Schmmiel is awful in many ways.

        • Avatar
          Sage

          Well Mark, if your religion can’t handle trans people then just go back to your Christian country club and enjoy I t. But (warning : you will hate what I am about to say) if you enjoy being a bigot and standing with bigots, then be ready for people like me so point out your bigotry, and do it loudly and publicly.

          And while some here may arguably see me as perhaps too direct and to mean, I only speak the truth, although a hard and pointed truth. If you feel a visceral reaction to this then look inside. Bigotry is always a you problem, not a me problem. I only have to endure bigotry, but not in silence.

          You don’t see people like me parading to Christian web site, or going to Christian gatherings, to talk about the joys and freedoms I have in my life, and that everyone else in this Christian place is wrong and just needs to accept my way of thinking and start living their life as I do.

          You don’t see LGBTQ people passing laws to shove Christian’s back into the closet, or censor books in public libraries that are Christian based, or attack, belittle, and isolate Christian children because their parents are abusing the by indoctrinating them into an abusive religion. No one refuses to sell goods or services to Christians.

          You don’t see LGBTQ people using indoctrination systems built on centuries of practice, protected by laws, to turn people gay or trans. Christianity stands out it it’s goal to indoctrinate everyone it encounters into lemming like belief system of whatever sect you support.

          Yet Christian’s such as yourself go of out of their to come to places LGBTQ people congregate to preach, make posts, cajole, and judgeThen she called out, they get Whitney and defensive, and are suddenly victimized. How can you be victimized when you are the one hating others?

          You don’t care how others live their life except for when you do care. Then your true inner nature, hidden behind that nice white washed facade, is revealed.

          So, based on your posts here, I suspect you are a self centered, judgmental, hateful, self righteous, manipulative, power-mongering uncaring, petty, transphobic, bigot using your small minded belief system to manipulate, belittle, insult, and control others that you do,not agree with or that you find disgusting.

          I cannot understand why christians just can’t go live their lives with others who hate like they do, and leave everyone else alone. You do that 68% of the wold is not Christian, right? And that only a small part of that world is LGBTQ. And the existence and lives,of LGBTQ people have zero impact on you.

          Do you have some problem with coexisting? It seems really simple to me. You go be you, and I live my own life also. If I am willing to coexist with people like you, then why can you and your kind not do the same?

          • Avatar
            Mark

            Oh please. This isn’t bigotry. This is common sense. There is no such thing as transexuality. One is either male or female; there is no in between. Two men and two women cannot create babies and it’s unhealthy to lead a gay lifestyle.
            Of course I have no problem with coexisting with people whose lifestyles I don’t agree with but the issue here is not what people are, it’s what they do. I agree that some called Christians are indeed homophobic. I have read about gay people who were kicked out of their parent’s homes after coming out to them but I would never do that so how dare you put me in the same category as them.
            Now Christians are being victimised. There have been Christian bakers who were sued because they didn’t want to make a cake for a gay wedding and Christian photographers who were in the same boat for not wanting to provide their services for gay weddings. It would be easy to say why don’t you just bake the cake or take the photos? Well Christians shouldn’t have to do anything that goes against their conscience.
            No, I am not bigoted. You are.

          • Avatar
            Sage

            Mark, how appropriate. You use your last comment to just emphasize the amount of bigotry you keep hidden.

            Why this outburst of anger? Why the sudden claim of victimization, which is always the go to response of a bigoted person.

            You know what I would do IfI were a Christian baker? Make the cake and tell the couple,I will,donate the money to their chosen homeless shelter. This way you can still show Christian love, but use the devils money for a good cause, and you heap coals of fire on their heads.

            But no, not you, you just want to have your rights emphasized over everyone else. You want your beliefs paramount and the one all must follow. You really can’t coexist and live peaceably with all people. Instead you insist that prejudice be permitted and others must conform to your religion.

            (Hint, the 2 paragraphs above are biblical references, you might want to look them up, as well as the references you missed in my last post.)

            Now, you called me a bigot. Great comeback there. But see, I don’t get upset, because I know I am not a bigot. I do know I have very limited respect for Christians, and you prove the cause of that disrespect. But to be clear, I have had people approach me with something I said or did that they found offensive, and I have evaluated my reasons and words, and change myself so I do not offend again. I also work hard to overcome my own prejudices..we all have them…so that I can live in harmony with other people.

            Using the “im not homophobic, I would never do X..” is just another lame excuse for your behavior, it’s a way to justify your actions, and try to hide your true bigotry, while acting as if you are not. Again, a common response of someone who does not want to take responsibility for their own words.

            Your opening paragraph is such an ode to bigotry that you may want to copyright as the meme to prove bigotry. “This isn’t bigotry. This is common sense” could well be the phrase used by e very bigot throughout history. I’m pretty certain that someone said that to justify Jim Crow, or slavery, or taking land and life from indigenous people, or making women stay at home, or even when feeding Christian’s to the lions.

            You want to know what is ironic here? Any bigoted god worshipper I push back on responds exactly in as you responded. The sanctimonious, how dare you, I’m not like that, response. But the irony is that It only reveals more of your bigotry. And you went all in, not holding back. That nice white facade you make for all to see only hides the ugliness inside (just a repeat reference since you missed it before)

            And yes, trans people exist, your transphobia just won’t allow it in your small minded thought process. Want proof? Go read all the new laws in Texas that try to manage trans peoples lives. If transgender I am is not real, then why the need for these laws?

            But hey, I can be proud that you used your last post here to spew your hateful venom on me. Over the years I’ve grown stronger, so to me, it is just water off a ducks back. And with it so that your truth s revealed.

          • Avatar
            MJ Lisbeth

            Mark—You say that I don’t exist.

            You are denying reality.

            That is a form of mental illness, i.e., insanity.

            A long time ago, I learned that it is pointless to argue with insane people.

            Therefore, I will say nothing more to you.

          • Avatar
            MJ Lisbeth

            Sage—Your defense of me—and, by extension, all LGBTQ people and anyone who questions, let alone, disbelieves Christian dogma is brilliant and moving. Thank you.

            I can’t count (OK, I was never any good at math!) how many times I’ve heard or read denials of my existence or some variation of, “My Lord commandeth me to love the sinner and hate the sin.” Or the secular version of such bigotry: Someone claims, “My sister/best friend/whomever is gay,” before choosing someone less qualified than me for a job, promotion, award or project—or inviting someone they barely know, but not me, to some event.

            My closest friend—an old-school Italian-American Queens blue-collar widow (her husband was also a dear friend)—once remarked that she knew everything she needed to know about a person by the way they reacted to me. By that standard, she can sniff out hypocrite a mile away.

            Anyone can “co-exist “ with me. People do it, if only for a moment, when standing in front of or behind me on line at the bagel shop. Loving me…or my loving you…well, that’s something else. It ain’t for the faint of heart.

          • Avatar
            BJW

            I guess Mark is the arbiter of who is bigoted and who isn’t. So people who deny the existence of trans people? Not bigoted. People who defend trans people? Bigoted. If I meet a new person like this, I don’t pursue any friendship, as they are transphobes. Gee Mark, why don’t you go and see what scientists say about trans people? It might open your eyes to get out of your bubble.

  2. Avatar
    Brian Vanderlip

    Mark, why should anybody believe in the absence you would testify is presence? First one digs a deep hole; then stares down into the absence and says, I feel someone there! Yeah, sure. You dug the hole and its you in it. Even your trying to not judge is judgement. It’s okay to be human, Mark. Being human is not by default, badness. They lied about that and still do every Sunday. Then they pass the offering plate and you judge, Mark, by opening your wallet.

    • Avatar
      Mark

      Brian, I dedicated my life to Jesus when I was 24. Since then I have been a better and happier person. Many other people have similar testimonies. So don’t try to convince me that God is not real.
      At least I have nothing to lose if I am wrong. Can you say the same about yourself?

      • Avatar
        Sage

        Mark, I was attending church before I was 1 week old. I dedicated my life to Jesus when I was 7, then again when I was 13. I read the Bible, cover to cover, more times by the age of 16 than most people do in a lifetime.

        I followed god for many years, and every day – yes, every day – fought the evil, sinful body that constantly tried to take me down and destroy me, I literally denied myself daily, far more than most people understand so I could live the life god wanted me to live.

        Then I realized this relationship with god was one sided. God demanded and i gave, all with the carrot of heaven dangling out in the future. But I knew that it wasn’t god, it was me that was causing this one sided problem so I doubled down, studied more, prayed more, read the Bible once again for answers.

        As I read deeper. I realized the things I thought I knew were wrong. The Bible was showing me things I had not seen and could not explain. So, I dove deeper again, because it was obviously me not understanding. And god would show me the answer. I asked valid questions, sought valid answers, and the deeper i went, the more it became clear…the Bible had serious issues that could not be explained, and all the history was not what I was told, and the theology was shaky no matter how you viewed it.

        So then I did the only reasonable thing I could do. I diligently prayed and asked god to show me the truth, so I could understand. If the Bible had issues, it was man made issues. Surely the god who,is alpha and omega can show me the truth and the proper way.

        But the answer was silence. Not just silence but this vast chasm of terrifying silence. Then came the reality, god was not real and could not.guide me. I’m all alone with no god use as an excuse.

        But good news! I found freedom in the realization that there was no Jesus, or sin, or heaven or hell. I could take responsibility for my life and make it better. And I could live without the crippling false guilt of christianity.

        In losing god, I found real freedom. I could look back and see the darkness that had shrouded my life and manipulated my thoughts and beliefs. I could clearly see the mental trauma that I had been carrying for years. And best of all, I no longer have guilt for just being born “different”

        Many people have similar testimonies. So don’t try to convince anyone that god is real.

        Yes, go ahead and follow your version of god, but don’t try to sell your god to others, or assume you have the only answer, or force your belief into,other peoples lives.

        What if I am wrong? I’m not, and I don’t need to hedge my bets by being a Christian ”just in case”. I have had enough of that abusive belief system.

          • Avatar
            Sage

            If you read your post again, you will see you asked “ Can you say the same about close out a rather condescending post that basically said “I am right and you are wrong”. So I showed you there are other viewpoints.

            What is that called?? Hmm..it’s on the tip,of my tongue…something about freedom and speech.

            If you read my post at all, you would see I was using your own words and your own thought process to show that others can view religion as extremely toxic.

            You seem to be reacting rather snarking to a post that was showing a different viewpoint.

            Obviously the only freedom of speech you support is that speech which you agree with.

      • Avatar
        Bruce Gerencser

        Pascal’s Wager . . .

        I assume you are a Hindu, Muslim, Jew, Shintoist, and Pastafarian too? Or are you an atheist towards these deities? What if you are wrong? Have you even considered these gods?

        You actually have much to lose by pursuing and worshiping a non-existent deity — your life. You only have one life, yet you’ve spent countless hours devoting yourself to a myth. You, my friend, have lost much (as all of us who worshipped Jesus have).

        Do you believe Mormons are Christians (a sect many Christians think is a cult)? If not, look at how happy Mormons are, how much “better” their lives are. It only your peculiar version of God makes people better or brings happiness, what about the Mormons?

        Are you suggesting atheists are morally inferior to you; not as morally or ethically upright as you? If so, what evidence do you have for this claim? Are you suggesting atheists are not as happy as you? Again, what evidence do you have for this claim?

        Christians and atheists alike are humans. Do suggest that Christians are superior to atheists is ludicrous. You say you are a better person , a happier man. How could we possibly know that what you speak is true? By what standard do we determine human goodness and happiness?

        • Avatar
          Mark

          I never said Christians were better than atheists. I only said I was happier. I was only speaking for myself. As for the other religions I would never consider them as they were started by sinful man. For example Buddha walked out on his wife and child. Jesus on the other hand is believed to have never sinned. As a former pastor, I would expect you to be aware of that.
          As for Mormonism, I consider that to be counterfeit Christianity.

          • Avatar
            Bruce Gerencser

            You implied it. Own your fucking words. Or are you suggesting you are better than most Christians, some sort is Super Saint?

            You don’t know if Jesus was sinless. All you have are stories written by, at least, third parties. What possible empirical evidence could you give to prove Jesus’s sinlessness? Surely, you can’t just expect me to take your word for it.

            Even if I did believe the Bible was true — and I don’t — it in no way proves Jesus was sinless. In fact, the Bible proves the opposite.

            Richard Dawkins was right when he said:

            “The God of the Old Testament [Jesus] is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

            Worse, Revelation records the awful, vile things Jesus will do to billions of people, all because they believed in the wrong deity or “sinned” — finite, for the most part, trivial “sins” punished with eternal torture in the Lake of Fire.

            I hope you understand why you won’t be permitted to continue to comment. You make no attempt to honestly interact with people who disagree with you. You ignore challenging questions, and then spit out assertions or denials. Saying “I don’t believe that” or “those are fake religions” or “they aren’t ‘real’ Christians are just assertions, attempts to cut off probing conversations. Go back and read all of my responses to you. I asked you all sorts of questions, most of which you ignored. And you are free to do that. However, gives off the appearance that you are just here to here yourself talk.

      • Avatar
        clubschadenfreude

        You have plenty to lose if you are wrong, Mark. The pascal’s wager nonsense fails since you lose time, you lose resources, and you tie yourself to ignorant hatred.

        Better and happier thinking people deserve death and worse? How pitiful.

      • Avatar
        BJW

        Mark, I’m not an atheist and still hope there is a loving god. But a god that burns finite humans forever, for mistakes made in a short period of time, isn’t any kind of god to worship. And your last sentence is passive-aggressive threatening to others, that we don’t believe in your god, so do we know what’s going to happen (hell, obviously)? That is in no way non-judgmental or kind.

        • Avatar
          Mark

          If I recall correctly there is actually nothing in the Bible that says Hell is a place of fire and brimstone. It’s like Earth, except that no-one seems to care about anyone except themselves. Anyhow, God doesn’t send people to Hell, they send themselves there by not excepting Him as their Lord and Saviour.

          • Avatar
            Astreja

            And that, Mark, is the greatest bullshit of all – that people send themselves to hell. Stop making excuses for your evil, petty little god-thing. Any god that would allow people to suffer for eternity, and not make any attempt to alleviate their suffering, is unspeakably vile and unworthy of any respect whatsoever.

            “People send themselves to hell” is a standard excuse that believers use in a failed attempt to justify their worship of an infinitely evil god.

            I reject your “Lord and Saviour” unconditionally, and that rejection will not send me to hell any more than your acceptance will send you to heaven. Your destiny, like mine, is to simply die and become insentient. You will automatically and permanently lose everything you ever believed at the moment of your death, and your prayers cannot and will not save you.

      • Avatar
        Astreja

        Mark, Pascal’s Wager is a sucker bet. For all you know, accepting Jesus — in other words, acquiescing to a human sacrifice and the cowardly act of allowing someone to die in your place” — is a disqualification from Valhalla and a one-way ticket to Niflheim.

        You may think you’ve lost nothing, but in my eyes you’ve already hit rock bottom. Your testimony is a turn-off rather than an enticement.

        • Avatar
          Ben Berwick

          That’s the thing isn’t it? There could be a pantheon of Roman gods, who wait for us with bottles of wine and grapes and the promise of all kinds of debauchery. Or maybe we all get to go for a drink with Thor and Loki.

  3. Avatar
    MJ Lisbeth

    Mark—Many of us have life stories that parallel Sage’s. We wanted to believe in God, to have salvation through Jesus and for the Bible to serve as a guide. While most of us were brought to some church or another when we had no choice in the matter, I suspect that most of us “gave our lives to Jesus “ and spent countless hours praying and seeking whatever truth we could find in the Bible and whatever meaning there was in our relationship with God. Like Sage, I fought what my body and mind were telling me. And I wanted to be released from the pain of the conflict between having a relationship with God and giving my mind and body what they need. I went as far as to internalize something a”man of God” had done to me—and to ask God to forgive me for the anger I felt.

    God never answered my prayers or “revealed “ anything to me—even after I prayed, begged and implored, and read the Bible more. And re-dedicated, and re-dedicated, my life to Jesus

    Today I realize how pointless it all was, But I don’t often talk about it because I’ve grown tired —as I’m sure Bruce and others have—of being told we “were never really” or that we “didn’t do it right.” It’s like working hard all of your life,’living frugally but still being poor, only to be chastised for not working hard enough or being a spendthrift by someone who won the lottery.

  4. Avatar
    BJW

    Mark, several of the commenters here are LGBTQ+. So if you decided to just express your opinion, that they are evil and wrong, for example, then you are actually gravely insulting people here. I am related to, and have friends, who are in that community. And the evil LGBTQ+ agenda is…to live their life with people they love, working jobs that give them satisfaction, and frequently helping others who need help. And they are happy to stay away from all judgmental Christians…very happy. Why do you have to persecute them? Ignore them as much as you can, and they will be fine with that. Dismantling human rights for them…that is WRONG. I have a dear trans female friend and she is a productive member of society, she was first friends of my sons. And she was tested and due to excellent test scores, has been trained to be a machinist. I have a lesbian family member who is a minister, who cares about other people who aren’t like her. You just can’t say the same things about fundagelical Christians.

    And this idea that we need your god to not rape, lie, steal, kill, commit adultery? Ridiculous. And yet prisons are full of Christians.

    • Avatar
      Mark

      Oh for crying out loud. Didn’t you see the part where I said that I try not to judge anyone? Seriously I think I should stop commenting here seeing as I may as well be talking to a brick wall!

      • Avatar
        Bruce Gerencser

        “Seriously I think I should stop commenting here seeing as I may as well be talking to a brick wall!”

        I agree. I’ll give you one more opportunity to comment, and then it’s time for you to move on. One comment, Mark. Use it wisely.

      • Avatar
        Bruce Gerencser

        And by the way, WE ALL JUDGE — even Super saints such yourself.

        Please read:

        https://brucegerencser.net/2020/08/does-the-bible-say-thou-shalt-not-judge/

        Excerpt:

        Let’s settle one thing right here, right now. You judge, I judge, we all judge. What matters is HOW we judge, what standard we use for judging.

        And that, by the way, is exactly what the Bible says.

        Evangelical Christians, by far, are the whiniest people on earth when it comes to judging. With Bible in hand, they make all sorts of judgments. They judge who is saved and who is lost. They judge what sin is and isn’t, and they really like to judge sexual sin (a sign that they have not gotten laid lately).

        Yet, when others turn their judgment back on their heads, they loudly protest, saying, the BIBLE says, thou shalt not judge.

        • Avatar
          BJW

          Bruce, I posted a comment or 2 on another laptop (my usual one needs another charger cord). So any differences in sign-in name are for that reason, since this one isn’t set up the same. Adjust as needed and feel free to delete this comment.

        • Avatar
          Mark

          Bruce, I read the link and I want you to know that you and I have more in common than you realise. That is why I subscribed to your blog. I still want to believe in God but I feel the same way you do about hypocrites.
          When I said I try not to judge, I meant that it was not for me to say whether so and so is going to Heaven or Hell. I understand why people don’t believe and I try to look at it from their point of view. That’s partly what Jesus meant by love your enemies.

      • Avatar
        BJW

        Except you are obviously judging. You don’t believe in what so and so says EXCEPT for the trans thing? That right there is 100% gold-plated bigotry. Trans people aren’t THINGS and referring to then off-handedly like that just shows your true opinion and judgment.

  5. Avatar
    Mark

    Bruce, you are twisting my words. Therefore I shall keep commenting on this post until you and everyone else stops attacking me and until I have answered everyone’s comments.
    I admit I haven’t answered all your questions, but that’s because I don’t have all the answers (no one does) or because I missed them. That’s easy to do on a mobile phone. On the other hand, you just don’t seem to like my answers.
    I never said I was better than anyone else and if you doubt the existence of Jesus, will you doubt the existence of anyone else?

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      No, you won’t keep doing anything on this site. I’m giving you one last opportunity to comment. Say your piece, or not, but I will not approve any further comments from you beyond your next one.

      • Avatar
        Mark

        Fine. Be that way. But you must know I am a very sensitive person. If you and all the other satanic morons insist on twisting my words and refusing to admit that you’re not on the same page as me, then I have no choice but to put you all in the same category as Pastor Joe Schmmiel, David Tee and every pedophile pastor in the world! Ha!

          • Avatar
            Astreja

            Poor widdle Markie-poo, sitting there with his Jesus undies in a knot and whining about how sensitive he is, after threatening us with hell, pretending he isn’t a transphobic, homophobic bigot, and outright lying about us.

            Where did we twist his words? What are we refusing to admit? And WTF does Satan have to do with this? Dumpster-fire apologetics at its most cringeworthy.

            This, gentlefolk of Life and Times, is what a dying faith looks like. I give Mark maybe 18 months more before the doubts overpower him once and for all.

          • Avatar
            BJW

            Satanic Morons. Sounds like a cool band name, I think I’ll use it when I start one. 😉 Oh, and Mark’s loving Christian ministry broke down pretty fast. Still, he’ll probably walk away feeling justified that all of us satanic morons rejected him, while he finally reveals his true feelings.

  6. Avatar
    Mark

    Bruce takes me to task for not answering his questions. But there’s a question I asked but didn’t answer. If he doubts the existence of Jesus, does he doubt the existence of any other historical figure?

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      No, I don’t doubt the existence of Jesus. I’m confident a Jesus lived and died in first century Palestine (I take a minimalist approach). As far as the supernatural Jesus as recorded in the Bible? Fiction. Believing in the existence of the Biblical Jesus requires faith, a faith I do not have. Since I know ALL the relevant data for the existence of Jesus, I know you have no evidence for tour claim that the Biblical Jesus is real.

      And for the record, I have good reasons for doubting the existence of other “historical” figures.

      • Avatar
        MJ Lisbeth

        For historical figures, we have evidence—whether verifiable documents or physical objects. That is why, for example we refer to the Big Three of Greek philosophy—Socrates,
        Plato and Aristotle—as historical figures’while we do not refer to Menelais and Helen of Troy in that way, even if they are the subjects of numerous works of art and literature.

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      Mark, in his own words, all twenty-one comments, in order from oldest to newest. 😂😂

      Fun fact. I discovered this blog by doing a Google search for Good Fight Ministries Katy Perry. Now I am a Christian but don’t have a lot of time for anti rock preachers as so many turn out to be wolves in sheep’s clothing as I’m sure you have discovered.

      Bruce, I have to confess that even if I didn’t believe in God, which I do, I would still oppose abortion. And that’s because I do care about women and children.

      Of course I support healthcare and all that. Nevertheless I oppose abortion also because it is fraught with risks. I have read about women who had their wombs damaged or worse lost their lives because of abortion.

      If you must know, yes.

      Brian, you talk about playing God. God is good and just and we are not.

      Lacy, how dare you blame God for the evil things people do? He is no more to blame for that than he is for Adam and Eve eating the fruit that he had told them not to eat. I admit you raise valid points with regards to incest and a mother’s life being in danger and cannot see any valid answers but abortion is not it. I’m certain of that. You also shouldn’t blame God for miscarriages or stillborn births. God doesn’t cause sickness. These things happen because this is a broken world. But I believe that one day Jesus will return to fix this world.

      God wouldn’t have had to create Hell if Satan and his minions hadn’t rebelled against God.

      OK you got me there. I think I should have said unrepentant women. There is no sin God won’t forgive.

      Be as condescending as you like but I am not a liar.

      Now that comment is on sinking sand. God killed those people because he knew they would never change, but the rainbow is His promise that He would not do anything like that again. (Too bad the gay community has hijacked the rainbow to be a symbol of their pride in something they should be ashamed but that’s another story. By the way, the people he killed had been born. If we do that, we go to jail. Why don’t abortionists go to jail? They should.

      I have to admit you do have a point here Bruce. As you know, I identify as Christian but I shall admit I don’t like the thought of all those people I know going to Hell simply because they are not Christians.

      To all the trolls who have attacked me. You are free to believe whatever you like but I refuse to believe there is no God. I will admit I do not have all the answers (which is why I seemed to be avoiding answering questions) but abortion is not it. I agree incest and rape are terrible things and no woman should have to endure it but I don’t see why we should punish the child for the crimes of the father and there are many women who agree with me and other men. Some of those women have been in that situation but kept the child and are glad they did and the child in turn is happy to be alive. There are quite possible a million people walking down your street who were conceived as a result of rape but if you murdered them now you’d go to jail. So what have they got that unborn babies don’t? Anyway, that is all I have to say on the subject.

      Actually Dave I do pray for my fellow man. So to answer your question, no.

      I am a Christian but I agree that comments like those are outrageous.

      No wonder there are so many people who don’t believe in God and while a Christian myself I do try not to judge

      Brian, I dedicated my life to Jesus when I was 24. Since then I have been a better and happier person. Many other people have similar testimonies. So don’t try to convince me that God is not real. At least I have nothing to lose if I am wrong. Can you say the same about yourself?

      If there’s no God there is no right or wrong. That is my belief and I am entitled to it.

      Yeah he was pretty rude to me too. But (warning: you won’t what I am about to say) I do agree with him about transgenderism. But I also agree with you on other matters which is why I subscribed to your blog. I mean your posts about anti rock music preachers are spot on. Certainly Pastor Joe Schmmiel is awful in many ways.

      Sage, I wasn’t telling you what to believe. I was only expressing what I believe. Ever heard of free speech?

      If I recall correctly there is actually nothing in the Bible that says Hell is a place of fire and brimstone. It’s like Earth, except that no-one seems to care about anyone except themselves. Anyhow, God doesn’t send people to Hell, they send themselves there by not excepting Him as their Lord and Saviour.

      I never said Christians were better than atheists. I only said I was happier. I was only speaking for myself. As for the other religions I would never consider them as they were started by sinful man. For example Buddha walked out on his wife and child. Jesus on the other hand is believed to have never sinned. As a former pastor, I would expect you to be aware of that. As for Mormonism, I consider that to be counterfeit Christianity.

      I did read the rules, but it’s easy to forget so please excuse me if I sometimes break them. And most of your assumptions of me are wrong. Of course I expect people will respond to what I say. Also, I never raped or killed or did anything like that before I was saved. Neither do my non believing brothers. Bruce, read the first comment I posted again. I said I could see why people don’t believe in God. I am not out to convert people, if you and other people take exception to what I say, that’s your problem.

      Oh for crying out loud. Didn’t you see the part where I said that I try not to judge anyone? Seriously I think I should stop commenting here seeing as I may as well be talking to a brick wall!

      Bruce, I read the link and I want you to know that you and I have more in common than you realise. That is why I subscribed to your blog. I still want to believe in God but I feel the same way you do about hypocrites. When I said I try not to judge, I meant that it was not for me to say whether so and so is going to Heaven or Hell. I understand why people don’t believe and I try to look at it from their point of view. That’s partly what Jesus meant by love your enemies.

      Bruce, you are twisting my words. Therefore I shall keep commenting on this post until you and everyone else stops attacking me and until I have answered everyone’s comments. I admit I haven’t answered all your questions, but that’s because I don’t have all the answers (no one does) or because I missed them. That’s easy to do on a mobile phone. On the other hand, you just don’t seem to like my answers. I never said I was better than anyone else and if you doubt the existence of Jesus, will you doubt the existence of anyone else?

      Oh please. This isn’t bigotry. This is common sense. There is no such thing as transexuality. One is either male or female; there is no in between. Two men and two women cannot create babies and it’s unhealthy to lead a gay lifestyle. Of course I have no problem with coexisting with people whose lifestyles I don’t agree with but the issue here is not what people are, it’s what they do. I agree that some called Christians are indeed homophobic. I have read about gay people who were kicked out of their parent’s homes after coming out to them but I would never do that so how dare you put me in the same category as them. Now Christians are being victimised. There have been Christian bakers who were sued because they didn’t want to make a cake for a gay wedding and Christian photographers who were in the same boat for not wanting to provide their services for gay weddings. It would be easy to say why don’t you just bake the cake or take the photos? Well Christians shouldn’t have to do anything that goes against their conscience. No, I am not bigoted. You are.

      Fine. Be that way. But you must know I am a very sensitive person. If you and all the other satanic morons insist on twisting my words and refusing to admit that you’re not on the same page as me, then I have no choice but to put you all in the same category as Pastor Joe Schmmiel, David Tee and every pedophile pastor in the world! Ha!

      Bruce takes me to task for not answering his questions. But there’s a question I asked but didn’t answer. If he doubts the existence of Jesus, does he doubt the existence of any other historical figure?

      • Avatar
        BJW

        I woke up today and remembered that the Ohio legislators are going to have physicians examine female children school athletes if they look too “masculine,” as that could mean they are (GASP!) trans girls trying to ruin the sport for AFAB teens. Any girl can be threatened with this now. So a girl is too tall? Maybe she’s grown faster than her peers? Hey, let’s subject her to a humiliating exam. And of course, let’s try to destroy any trans girl’s desire to compete in sports, because she’s deemed a threat to womanhood. Never mind that very few trans athletes end up taking medals or competitions from AFAB girls. Never mind that they deserve to have a decent life. No, let’s destroy their lives even though they are the most vilified minority in this country. I. AM. SICK. OF. THIS. SHIT. And I’m sick of people like Mark, who are running our state.

    • Avatar
      GeoffT

      Mark, I haven’t responded to you so far because others are doing a perfectly fine job of rebutting everything you say (though I do resent your use of the word ‘troll’ to describe these regular commenters, when you are the visitor), but I’m going to pick you up on the issue of other historical figures. I’ve heard (minor) apologists claim that there’s more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar. This is factually ridiculous. For example, there are hundreds of Roman coins excavated in Europe that actually show the face of Julius Caesar, with the inscription, many of which I’ve seen personally. Evidence for Jesus is almost nil. The gospels were written decades after Jesus purportedly died, by anonymous authors, without seeming access to any eyewitnesses. Outside of the gospels there are a couple of vague references to someone that suggests was probably Jesus, but they are vague, of a kind we would expect for a very minor character of the time. In short, Jesus probably did exist as a minor itinerant preacher, but we can be sure beyond reasonable doubt that the Jesus described in the bible is entirely fictional.

      Oh, and on the subject of abortion. Countless more millions of women have suffered as a result of childbirth than have ever been harmed by medically authorised abortions. Of course, if you are in favour of illegal abortions (which is the consequence of banning abortion), then I think you need to look to your personal standards of morality.

  7. Avatar
    MJ Lisbeth

    BJW–Thank you for your comment. While many of us were born taller and larger than most women, that advantage is disspiated or negated after we’ve been on hormones for a year or two. (Trust me, I learned about this through experience!) All of the stories about alleged trans women who won women’s competitions–like GDR Olympic swimmers–turned out to be women who took a lot of steroids and other drugs (and later developed myriad health problems). There is no danger of trans people “taking over” athletic competitions.

    The scenario of arbitrary exams you describe reminds me of what happened in the old New York City Women’s House of Detention. Located within sight of the Stonewall Inn (Many inmates cheered the rebellion from their windows.), the WHD detained a number of lesians and trans women who violated actual or made-up regulations like the “Three-Item Rule”: https://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/2015/9/23/latest-stonewall-clip-explores-old-three-article-rule#:~:text=In%20the%20'50s%20and%20'60s,t%20match%20their%20assigned%20genders. Inmates were often strip-searched and subjected to pelvic exams and other procedures that had no medical justification, ostensibly to look for weapons and other contraband.

    (Two women I know experienced what I have described.)

  8. Avatar
    BJW

    Thank you so much. Are these theocrats next going to start measuring testosterone in women? Because I guarantee it is higher in some than others. Look, I get the jealousy over Lia Thomas, but it’s petty. Petty because hey, I’d like to think if I was a competitive swimmer, it would inspire me to work harder. BTW, did you know Michael Phelps has a medical condition that helped him to be an Olympic swimmer? Yes, he has Marfan syndrome. So all people with Marfan syndrome need to be disallowed the ability to do sports, as it gives them an unfair advantage. And tall women? Should they be banned since being tall isn’t usual in women? After all, that gives them a competitive edge in many sports.

    What upsets me the most is women claiming they only want women in their spaces. What are they afraid of?? I don’t see how a trans woman isn’t a woman. All I can think of is how sick I am over this persecution of trans people, but it is currently aimed at AMAB who want to do sports. The goddamned South Dakota law forbidding AMAB trans women from competing in school sports. At this time, there is exactly ONE FUCKING TRANS GIRL this applies to.

    (What I haven’t heard voiced out loud, but believe it is the subtext: it’s about their penis. And they have voiced how awful it is when AFAB trans men get top surgery, the shock, the horror! They are all about breasts and penises.)

    I guess I’m feeling this because I have a dear young trans woman friend, and how hard things have been for her. Her dad’s side of her family is pretty much against her, as super conservative Christians. She has 2 good relations who care about her. She is now doing well at work, and her company liked her so much when they hired her that they are training her from the ground up to do a skilled trade. But the pandemic interrupted her medical care and her savings, which she needed for gender medical care in Ohio.

    People like Mark stay away from icky people they think are horrible sinners, well, no, not really. They forgive people who commit al kinds of heinous crimes, adultery, rape, gluttony, gossip, greed, stealing, lying, the list goes on. But people who don’t conform to their gender/sexual norms are bad. I have no respect for this opinion, not at all. Their power plays are about ruining other people’s lives. They are NOT AT ALL about live and let live, or ignoring what they don’t like. Nope, they have to crush those who don’t fit.

    • Avatar
      Mark

      I don’t except this comment will be approved by Bruce but here goes.

      BJW, everything you said about me is wrong. And as for Astreja, you twist my words when you accuse me of saying I am better than you, which I certainly don’t wasn’t doing, and the Bible says that anyone not for Christ is under the control of Satan, but I don’t suppose you’ll buy that either.

      Honestly I don’t believe I did anything wrong and I don’t deserve this shit. But I will stop commenting on this blog once you all start leaving me alone. You don’t have the right to tell me what to believe anymore than I have the right to impose my beliefs on you. You may think I was doing so but I was not.

      • Avatar
        Bruce Gerencser

        Oh, this is too rich for me not to approve. 😂😂

        Let me summarize your comment: You are right, everyone else is wrong, non-Christians are under the control of Satan, and you are not better than anyone else — wink! wink! you really are, Praise Jesus.

        About right?

        You have an interesting view of this blog and its readers: that I can’t “stop” you from commenting — I can — and no one can tell you what to believe. You refuse to see yourself for who and what you are. Nothing I can do about that. You have a complete lack of self-awareness, just another “poor little me” Christian with a martyr’s complex. Remember, you are the one you came to this site and continues to come to this site and comment. You, you, you, you, you, you, you! Maybe I need to block your access so your ass cheeks will have time to heal. 😂😂

      • Avatar
        Neil Rickert

        “But I will stop commenting on this blog once you all start leaving me alone.”

        I have been leaving you alone, all along (until this reply). But your comments keep coming.

        Please stop. You are only making yourself look more and more foolish.

      • Avatar
        Lacy

        “But I will stop commenting on this blog once you all start leaving me alone. You don’t have the right to tell me what to believe anymore than I have the right to impose my beliefs on you. You may think I was doing so but I was not.”

        YOU came to this site to leave your two cents about YOUR beliefs and tell the rest of us we are wrong, including bigoted comments about LBGTQ not being real and the rest of us were, “satanic morons”. You are now claiming victimhood for yourself. You came to a blog created by Bruce to tell his story and a place of solice for others to tell theirs and here you are-gaslighting all of us and being a typical Christian jerk. No one invited you here and no one asked for you to shame members of this page with your holier-than-thou theology.

        Here are a few facts, before you go-Trans people ARE real; ask a scientist-not that you would because science also conflicts with your antiquated belief system, those of us who don’t believe their is a “god” also don’t believe there is a “satan” so calling us “satanic morons” is pretty silly and finally-you can leave at anytime and in fact, we don’t need you or your judgemental commentary anyway, so by all means-GO!

      • Avatar
        aylogogo77

        I am grateful to the commenters on this site who responded to Mark. He self-identifies as a Christian, but given that he called us all “satanic morons” he is in urgent need of moral guidance, which many here have provided by calling out his bad behavior and showing him a better way. Isn’t it amazing how evangelical men are so lacking in self-awareness? “I don’t believe I did anything wrong” says the man who calls us names and accuses of things we didn’t do. He asks us to leave him alone, but he’s the one who initiated the whole discussion. So clueless. I’m glad there are people here who are emotionally healthy and who have strong boundaries, and who challenge him to do better.

      • Avatar
        Astreja

        Mark: “And as for Astreja, you twist my words when you accuse me of saying I am better than you…”

        Um — where did I say that, Mark? Point out the exact post, please, and quote me verbatim.

        If you cannot find such a quote, then I expect an unqualified public apology for bearing false witness against me.

  9. Avatar
    Mark

    Oh that does it. This will be my last comment. But not because you want me to shut up. It’s because I have chosen to do so.
    But before I leave this discussion, let me say that you seem to be telling me to leave Christianity. That’s not going to happen. That’s like telling people not to listen to rock music (which is why I put you in the same category as Joe Schmmiel) or telling them to play sport. Almost everyone at my last primary school told me that I should play sport but that was bad advice because I was never good at it.
    One more thing. You all remind me of Charles Templeton. In case you haven’t heard of him, he was another preacher who lost the faith. He actually started his preaching career at much the same time as Billy Graham.
    Anyhow, that’s it from me. Don’t respond to this because if you do, you shall be wasting your time.

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      Dear Mark,

      You still think you are in control. You’re not. This is my blog. It’s up to me to decide who comments on my posts. You had ample opportunities to thoughtfully engage in discussion. Too bad you wasted the opportunity, choosing instead to be a whiny Evangelical, a bully with a persecution complex.

      No one has told you to leave Christianity. I don’t give a fuck one way or the other. I do suggest you seriously think about how you represent Jesus among unbelievers. You’ve not said one thing, Mark, that remotely represents Christ in a good way.

      I don’t tell people to not listen to rock or to play sports. Where the fuck did you get that idea? Shit, next month I’m going to two hard rock concerts: Halestorm and Theory of a Deadman. Last month I went to a Breaking Benjamin/Seether/Starset concert. You must have me confused with someone else. And, I don’t know anyone named Joe Schmmiel.

      I often respond to comments for the sake of others, the lurkers who read but never comment. I’ve long since stopped trying to reach you.

      I want to make sure you read this comment. After that, I will block your access to this site. You see, I am the god of this blog. They call me Bruce Almighty. They made a movie about me. Check it out.

      I hope, in time, you will reflect on your behavior on this site; your homophobia; your name calling; your insults of complete strangers. And if you do, perhaps you’ll apologize for your un-Christian behavior. I won’t hold my breath. Most Evangelicals drive automobiles without a reverse gear.

      Bruce Gerencser

      • Avatar
        BJW

        It turns out Mark thinks calling us satanic morons was a good representation of God’s love. And he doesn’t even know some of us believe in God, or are liberal Christians, or…okay, we are all satanic morons from his POV. Too bad he doesn’t realize we find that hilarious. I need to start a band called Satanic Morons! Anyone with me? I play melodica, recorder, and Chinese hulusi flutes. Even one singer would work lol.

        • Avatar
          Astreja

          I’m in, BJW! I can contribute excellent clarinet, competent ProgRock-class keyboards, and extremely sloppy guitar thrashings.

          • Avatar
            BJW

            That’s awesome! We could probably do our own band, just us 2. I got a Bachelor of Music a million years ago, and severe TMJD made it impossible to keep playing the clarinet with its embouchure. The wind instruments I play don’t require a tight or even specific embouchure.

            Oh! I also sing well, and in pitch. More alto range. I used to sing all the time to Rascal Flatts music as there was only ONE note in all their songs I couldn’t reach (Gary sang a low one). Plus I found out while singing alto I didn’t have to open my (cursed) jaw as far. I used to tell my husband that I would make a great 4th vocalist with them.

          • Avatar
            MJ Lisbeth

            I wish my old band had come up with a name like “Satanic Morons.” Maybe we would’ve become famous.

            To be a punk band playing in dive bars, you didn’t actually have to be good. So it was the perfect gig for me. I was, nominally, a backup vocalist and drummer. In reality, I was just banging and screaming—which was a way to channel the rage I felt.

            I don’t know how well I’d fit into any band now, except perhaps as a songwriter:

            Raised in the church
            I asked too many questions
            The priest on his perch
            Thundered “Begone! Begone!”
            Now I’’m a Satanic Moron!

  10. Avatar
    ... Zoe ~

    I suspect MJ, there are abused boys in the SBC too. If you think they kept the female assaults quiet, imagine the lengths they went too, to cover-up male assault.

    I’m Canadian and my experience was with the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church, that at the time was part of the Fellowship of Baptist Churches. (Probably still is.) Briefly, we were the SBC’s of our area.

    Today, many of the churches have changed their names to something more whimsical, like ‘The Neighbourhood Church on Cherry Blossom Lane.’ (I just made that up.) They’ve also dropped bragging rights to the once beloved term: Independent Baptist Church. All a clever way of trying to disassociate themselves from the truth . . . they are still born-againers in every sense of the word and the Word. It’s just now in contemporary times they are less vocal about it, though still very much involved in bringing new minnows into the trap.

    The churches we left many years ago just keep recycling their sin over and over.

    Thanks for sharing this post. The consequences to those abused is life-long.

    • Avatar
      Karuna Gal

      “I suspect, MJ, there are abused boys in the SBC too. If you think they kept the female assaults quiet, imagine the lengths they went to, to cover-up male assault.” A good point there, Zoe.
      “Today, many of the churches have changed their names to something more whimsical, like ‘The Neighbourhood Church on Cherry Blossom Lane.’ “ Evangelical/Baptist/Fundamentalist churches are doing the same thing in my area, renaming themselves. One Baptist church near me has a new, manly Hebrew name, like “Knesset” or something. Same old Fundagelical balderdash inside, no doubt. 😄

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Bruce Gerencser