Over the weekend, a Christian woman named Karen Dillard left the following comment on the post titled Evangelicals and the Gay Closet: Is Ray Boltz Still a Christian? My response is indented and italicized. All spelling and grammar in the original
I’ll weigh in! So I’m reading that the Bible nor God is your source of moral authority or any type of authority,for that matter, on anything. Got it! That’s entirely up to you!
Christianity is a text-based religion. Without the Bible, Christianity wouldn’t exist. Everything we know about God and Jesus comes from the Bible. Evangelical Christians believe that the Bible is supernaturally inspired, inerrant, and infallible. Thus, Evangelicals see the Bible as a divine moral code by which sinners and saints must govern their lives. Failing to do so puts people in danger of judgment and eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire.
Dilliard intimates that she derives her morality from God and a supernatural book allegedly written by him. Christians generally think everyone can know God through divine revelation: conscience, nature, and the Bible. Thus, atheists deliberately deny and reject what is clearly known to them. Atheists, according to the book of Romans “suppress the truth in unrighteousness.”
Atheists see the Bible as an errant, fallible ancient religious text written by fallible, frail (mostly unknown) men. Many atheists, myself included, find some value in reading the Bible — say the Book of Ecclesiastes, the Sermon on the Mount, and Matthew 25 — but treat it as any other book. Evangelicals, on the other hand, believe, in theory anyway, that every word of the Bible is true; that we are duty-bound to obey and practice the teaching of the Bible — as interpreted by each Christian, preacher, and theologian. In Evangelical Christianity, each Christian is a Pope — an infallible interpreter of the Bible.
In the real world, Evangelicals are buffet believers, picking and choosing what Bible commands, laws, and precepts they want to believe and practice. No Christian believes and practices all of the Bible. Their morality is just as subjective and conditional as that of the unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines of the world.
Dilliard needs a divine lawgiver outside of herself in order to be moral. Without this lawgiver, she wouldn’t be moral. The only thing keeping her from being a murderer, rapist, kidnapper, or thief is her peculiar version of God. Without God, she would do all sorts of heinous, evil things.
If this really is the case, then by all means she should keep believing in God and following the teachings of the Bible. For me, I don’t need a source outside of myself to be moral. I don’t need a deity telling me what is right and wrong for me to be a moral and ethical human being.
Dillard provides no evidence for the existence of God and the claims she makes for the Bible. I suspect she’s a presuppositionalist, presupposing that her deity exists and the teachings of the Bible are true. I am, for the most part, an evidentialist. I want to believe as many true things as possible. If someone wants me to believe something, she must provide sufficient evidence for her claim.
So let’s talk about where YOUR moral authority comes from , then. Do you believe there’s a right or wrong?
All morality is inherently subjective. There are a plethora of views on morality. As an atheist, I don’t think morality exists outside of self. Some atheists believe that there are moral absolutes, but I am of the opinion that morality is subjective. That said, we live in societies that benefit from commonly held moral beliefs. As with the U.S. Constitution, “we the people” decide the moral standards by which we will govern our societies. That’s why we have laws, rules, and regulations. As a member of a particular society, I consent to adhering to and obeying these things, knowing that if I don’t, I could be punished or imprisoned. Productive, happy societies depend on the consent of the governed. Christians and atheists agree that certain behaviors are wrong. If we don’t like certain laws, rules, and regulations we, through the ballot box, change them. We are seeing this played out with abortion. The U.S. Supreme Court reversed Roe v. Wade in 2022. Now we are seeing moves in a number of states to enact laws and state constitutional amendments to reverse the damage done by the Court’s decision. That’s how it works in democratic societies. WE THE PEOPLE decide the laws, rules, and regulations we want to be governed by. If our elected leaders don’t do our bidding, we vote them out of office, replacing them with someone who will.
Dilliard seems to want an autocratic or authoritarian society; one where her God and interpretations of the Bible are the law; the determiner of what is moral. Instead of “we the people” deciding how we want to be governed and live, Dilliard believes a supernatural authority outside of us is the one and only authority on morality.
There are thousands of religions and deities, each believing they are right; that their god is the moral arbiter of the universe. How do we determine which religion/deity is right? How could we possibly know that Dilliard’s peculiar deity is the one true God; the moral arbiter of the universe? I know of no way to determine whether her God is the right one.
Thus, I believe that determining what is moral rests on the individual and the societies to which they belong. How can an individual or a society determine what is moral? The best way, in my humble opinion, is to determine what best promotes flourishing, happiness, prosperity, and peace.
If so, who told you lying is right or wrong? Who told you stealing is right or wrong? Who told you to teach your kids not to be selfish? Where did they learn to be selfish,( or not) did you teach them? Why is being selfish wrong or could it be right? Selfishness is a character flaw but how do we know that? How do we know? How do you know cheating on your wife is wrong?
As it has for all humans, including Dillard, my morality has evolved over my sixty-six years of life. Certainly, my parents, church, and the Bible played a big part in the formation of my moral beliefs. Over time, I have learned that my parents, church, and the Bible were wrong about some (many) things. When I deconverted in 2008, I was given a new opportunity to determine what, exactly, were my moral and ethical values. I reevaluated my moral beliefs, holding on to some of them and casting aside others. This, of course, is hard work. Christians don’t have to think about their moral beliefs. God said it, that settles it, Evangelicals say. That’s why we see such hateful behavior by Evangelicals towards LGBTQ people, liberals, atheists, and anyone else who is different from them. God has spoken, end of discussion. Human flourishing never enters the discussion. All that matters is what is written in ink on the pages of the Bible — as interpreted by individual Christians.
Could it be wrong for you but right for someone else? … On and on…. If you are your own moral authority ,or believe our government is your moral authority, how do you know you are right or the government is right and why should I believe you?
I have moral beliefs that conflict with the beliefs of others. For example, I am a pacifist. On principle, I oppose all war. I oppose the death penalty too. I believe it is immoral to kill people. Yet, I recognize that there are times when killing someone might be justified, say in defensive wars or defending one’s family. Each of us decides what we consider moral/immoral. How can it be otherwise? Interjecting God into the discussion changes nothing. Many of the wars humans have fought were initiated and prosecuted by people who believe in God; people who ignored the pacifistic teachings of Christ to win their objective.
I am a rationalist, a skeptic, and a humanist. I use these prisms to determine whether I am justified to believe things. I am humble enough to admit that I could be wrong. Unfortunately, Evangelicals are an arrogant lot. Armed with certainty, they lack nuance, seeing everything through a black-and-white lens. That’s why the culture war is raging in every corner of our republic.
How can you say Ray Boltz is right or wrong in his own belief system? Does the Universe tell you these things? Does the culture/civil society teach you these things but how do you know that if right, not wrong?
I make no judgment of Ray Boltz’s life. His sexuality is his business, not mine, or anyone else for that matter. What consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is none of my business. Evangelicals, of course, want to criminalize any sex that is not married, heterosexual, and monogamous intercourse in the missionary position. Okay, maybe not that last one, but many Evangelicals think blow jobs, anal sex, or sexual aggression by a woman are sins. There are no cowboys to ride in Evangelicalism. 🙂 Worse, many Christians think using birth control is a sin; that the goal of all sex is procreation.
Or is there some hidden moral code/authority that only atheist’s are privy too? Inquiring minds want to know…
Dilliard is being disingenuous when she says “inquiring minds want to know.” I suspect she already “knows”; that there is nothing I can say that will change her morality and worldview.
As I made clear in this post, most atheists think the locus of morality is self, both individually and as a society. There is no Atheist Ten Commandments or Atheist Bible. As someone who has spent the past fifteen years swimming in atheist waters, I can tell you that atheists vigorously debate the subject of morality. There is no Atheist Morality. All I can say is what I believe on any given subject. I suspect most of the atheists who frequent this site will generally agree with me on the subject of morality, though I know there are some who don’t. And that’s okay. The only way we can come to a consensus is to debate these issues. “Iron sharpeneth iron” the Bible says, and I think that applies to discussions among atheists too. Sadly, the same can’t be said for discussions with Evangelicals. Most of them aren’t open to honest discussion and faith. They KNOW they are right, so their goal is to get people who disagree with them to tap out. Faith, presuppositionalism, and certainty make it nigh impossible to have meaningful discussions with Evangelicals on virtually anything, including morality.
Maybe Dillard is different. We shall see.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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And yet, Evangelists daily contradict the plain teachings of the Bible in service of their Christian Nationalism.
My experience is that Christian morality changes based on need and circumstance. They turn a blind eye to immoral (according to their own morality) activity in preachers, church leaders, or politicians as long as they say they believe in god and/or advance some form of Christian belief.
I trust the morality of non religious people more than the morality of christians.
I think this is one of the weakest of the apologist arguments, the argument from morality. Dennis Prager obsesses about it (I know, who cares what Prager thinks!), saying that if morality doesn’t come from God then it’s just opinion. Trouble is that’s just his opinion! He has no way of demonstrating the existence of ‘objective’ morality, nor explaining how we access it. After all, if it’s simply a matter of lifting it from the bible then it’s no less subjective than a non-believer gleaning it from their books, or other sources (the issue of whether the bible is actually a source of good morality is a different issue). It must, therefore, somehow be instilled into us, but then the apologist is faced with yet more problems. Firstly, if it’s simply ‘in our nature’ then that is exactly what evolutionary behaviour teaches. As societies we’ve learned what works and what doesn’t, and reached a consensus, though of course different societies come to very different conclusions. Secondly, if it was instilled absolutely then it couldn’t adapt, nor change (we’d still have slavery, for example), and nor would we have such differing opinions (which are subjective, of course) on abortion, or homosexuality, or guns, and so on. So really I’m both repeating and endorsing what Bruce says in this article.
In any event, how can morality possibly be objective? There are objective issues and questions that constantly surround it; for example, if I kill somebody then that person is objectively dead, but a judgement of my culpability in the death is subjective. Was it perhaps self defence, accidental, in a fit of rage, or maybe it was to save other people? All this is subjective and trying to pretend that there are some objective rules that govern these situations, other than laws and regulations that we determine ourselves, is disingenuous, lazy, and dangerous.
Once again, we find somebody telling us that humans just could not figure out how to live decent moral lives, so somebody better write a book to tell them how to live. Which of many books should we choose? Conveniently, they select the Bible, but they are often ignorant of what the Bible teaches.
I wander if Dillard follows Luke 6:30: “Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back.” If so, then perhaps you should ask her for everything she has! I suspect we will be told that this is one of those verses that needs to be interpreted. Prudence seems to overcome the letter of the law here. And common sense also seems to override the command not to wear fabrics made of two different materials. In the end, common sense seems to trump the Bible if the two conflict. See https://mindsetfree.blog/dare-to-question/is-the-bible-the-best-moral-guide/ .
Brilliant ! Thanks Bruce for putting it so succinctly and clearly ♡♡♡
So Merle, human beings, left to their own devices, have worked out real well? Have you ever told a lie? Why is lying wrong? Have you ever taken something from someone that didn’t belong to you? Why is stealing wrong? Did your parents tell you? Did your church tell you? Did society tell you it’s wrong and why? If so, aren’t you coming under THEIR authority? How did those mentioned determine that lying, stealing and or cheating is wrong? Who told them? How do they know? I want to know where YOUR authority comes from? If the answer is yourself… that’s fine. Here’s the rub, though, why should we trust ourselves to determine that lying is wrong? Or stealing is wrong? Because, if I WANT to do those things, I can determine that for MYSELF, can’t I? If I want to cheat on my husband, why is that right/wrong? If morality is up to ourselves, then, you don’t have a right to tell me, what’s right for me? What’s right/wrong for me, might not be right/wrong for you! I can determine that for MYSELF, thank you very much, if you worldview/belief system revolves around YOURSELF in determining morality. The take away is that someone or something is going to be the moral authority. That’s what makes a civil society…. civil. What authority does a society base their own morality on? Themselves?? If there is society, that has gone sideways, (which there are examples of that in the world today) with their own made up sense of morality, then, what do you find? It’s obvious! Chaos! The result is a society that goes against everything we KNOW to be right/wrong. How do we KNOW?
Who are YOU to tell them they are wrong?? On what authority do YOU speak? Your own authority?? That’s laughable to me!
There is a Truth that we can know!
So in loving your enemies, Jesus is saying, in Luke, treat them as you would treat those you love. If someone, you love, asks you for your cloak, you give it to them. Don’t ask for it back as you wouldn’t ask your loved one for it back. Continuing on… in Luke, If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? In other words, it’s easy to love the lovely but harder to love your enemy. That’s so true!! We need His unconditional love to flow through us when it comes to loving our enemy. Can I get a witness? Next???
I can’t possibly keep up with all the people debating me so take this post as my first attempt to address everyone. You’re killing me with the fire hose approach to my questions… LOL… I know what I believe and why I believe it. I’m trying to find out the same from you. Can you give me something? I’m all ears!
How about succinctly responding to what I wrote instead of restating your first question? I answered most of your questions. Morality is subjective, we decide what is moral, and collectively societies decide what is moral (or the rules by which we all play by). There is no moral law giver. We are gods.
Please read the commenting rules if you haven’t already done so.
Morality is not subjective because when that’s played out, globally, that hasn’t worked out well for all of humanity at all. So for that reason alone, I’m not convinced. All members of the human race do NOT play by the rules! Take a trip around the planet if you have any doubt.
Even in our own country, we struggle with defining morality.
We aren’t gods, clearly. There’s many among us that act out, in ungodly ways, that cause great pain, suffering and commit horrendous acts against the most innocent among us. So define “We”. Are you talking about the human race?
We can’t possibly agree on morality. There’s a reason for that too. I’m a member of a face book page authored by an agnostics/atheists’ against abortion. Their slogan is- Non violence from the womb to the tomb. They are adamantly opposed to abortion because it’s morally wrong to them. I’m also a member of a page called- Democrats for Life. “We” don’t all agree on abortion being a moral choice. So which god(s) are correct? I read the commenting rules. I didn’t have enough time to respond to everyone when I read all the comments. I just grabbed one real quick and responded.
There are no gods, so we can dispense with that notion. Unless you have empirical evidence for the existence of a God, and evidence that that God is the God if the Bible, there’s really nothing to talk about on the God question.
History suggests morality is a human construct that evolves over time. There’s no lawgiver outside of humans. We, at the individual, tribal, and societal level, decide what is moral. Perhaps the word “moral” is the problem. When I use the word moral, I mean the laws, rules, and regulations by which we govern ourselves. These laws can and do change over time. I’m 66 years old. Many things that were considered immoral or illegal years ago are not viewed that way today by both Christians and atheists.
Name one thing that God/Bible morality has kept people from doing. You can start with the stories found here:
http://brucegerencser.net/category/black-collar-crime/
I admit I am confused by your somewhat garbled method of writing, but I could swear you just stated that morality is not subjective, then included example of a democrat against abortion. Isn’t that an example of subjective morality?
Okay, I’m not a fan of the way this page is set up so I’ll do my best to answer your questions in order.
Morality is what keeps a society civilized. You can’t go around murdering people, stealing, or lying under oath etc.. on & on. So traffic laws, speed limits etc… are civil laws that help keep things running smoothly and safely. Some people take issue with “safely”.
God’s morality is higher than our own…. because He’s ….. God. What I see is perfection, in a perfect world. It would take to long to spell it all out but I’m sure you all can imagine. I certainly can! So, in my worldview, there is a higher power that is greater than ourselves/governments. Not subjective as you so clearly pointed out.
In our Declaration of Independence it states- Our worth, value and basic human right comes from our Creator. So that is giving a nod to someone greater than ourselves. Our country is based on Judeo-Christian values. Our money has- In God we trust etc…
We are unique, in the fact, that even though we give a nod to a greater power, Creator/God, yet, we have freedom of worship/belief systems/religions in our country. Separation of church and state. There are Islamic countries but they don’t separate their government from their belief system. We do!
In a Democratic Republic our society/culture sets the tone for what WE consider moral or immoral. Clearly, that changes like the wind!! But there are some absolutes!
We believe in a justice system. Where did our desire for justice come from? Hmmm….. God believes in justice too.
So in our society/culture right now, today, you can see how fluid morality can become . When you throw away the standard , then, we get to make up stuff!! Woo Hoo!!
So the more people that believe in their own standards of morality, the more bizarre/fluid/subjective things become in any society or country. That’s been my observation.
When you take a quick trip, around the globe, you can see what other countries look like.
.-Authoritarian ruled countries that sees themselves to be like a god themselves… North Korea, Russia and China, just to name a few.
So back to the USA, I don’t believe that God’s Biblical moral standard has taken our country to a bad place at all… ever! Obama stated we aren’t a Christian Country. 🙂 It must be true!
I believe that our Creator has given us our value, worth and basic human rights per the Declaration of Independence. That’s exactly where it comes from.. I have no doubt!
So this would fly in the face of abortion, on demand, because it claims to put the rights of another human being over the right to have our own life, that has been created, in the womb! If there wasn’t human life, there wouldn’t be a need to destroy it!
Our value/worth comes from our Creator. SO ( our lives) aren’t reduced to wanted or unwanted. (devalued) or dehumanized ( not fully human) in the womb by recognizing our full humanity by DNA tests, if needed.
So, I don’t believe in slavery!
If you like the Jesus, in the Bible, that claimed to be God, then, you know God does not approve of slavery. No person, that I know, believes in slavery of any kind.
Selling human beings for sex seems to be a growing problem, in 2023, in some people’s minds. Sickening!
So slavery is a strawman argument, just like the other passage, in Luke, that was brought up earlier by someone else. It’s too easy to dispute! Next!
I believe Jesus Christ is who He said, He was.
I find no fault in Jesus Christ.
I find a lot of fault in mankind aka the human race, to include myself! I’ll end this with this- “Houston, we have a problem”.
Many people hijack God’s word and Christ’s words to live by etc… that’s evidence to me of our need for Jesus Christ, even more! So if you do put your trust in the human race, or even yourself, you’ll be sorely disappointed. That’s been my experience! That’s coming from a PK!
Got more thoughts or questions? Fire away! I hope I answered them for you to your satisfaction. Thanks for answering mine! I’ll answer more later….
Karen said: “God’s morality is higher than our own…. because He’s ….. God. What I see is perfection, in a perfect world. It would take to long to spell it all out but I’m sure you all can imagine. I certainly can! So, in my worldview, there is a higher power that is greater than ourselves/governments. Not subjective as you so clearly pointed out.”
Bruce said: If you want to have a serious discussion on morality, then you are going to have to “spell it out.” What, exactly, is God’s moral standard? Where is it located? Can I read it?
Karen said: In our Declaration of Independence it states- Our worth, value and basic human right comes from our Creator. So that is giving a nod to someone greater than ourselves. Our country is based on Judeo-Christian values.
Bruce said: There is no such thing as Judeo-Christian. How many Jews were there in the thirteen colonies? What part did Jews play in the founding of our country? The Creator mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, is, at best, a deistic God, and not the Evangelical God of the Bible. Most of the founders were deists, not Evangelicals. I encourage you to do some reading on deism.
Karen said: Our money has- In God we trust etc…
Bruce said: “In God we Trust” was added to our money in the 1950s during the MacCarthy era as a reaction to Communism. Same goes for God being added to the Pledge of Allegiance. The original Pledge did not mention God at all.
Karen said: In a Democratic Republic our society/culture sets the tone for what WE consider moral or immoral. Clearly, that changes like the wind!! But there are some absolutes!
Bruce said: Please list ten of these moral absolutes.
Karen said: We believe in a justice system. Where did our desire for justice come from? Hmmm….. God believes in justice too.
Bruce said: The God of the Bible is actually unjust. First, God infinitely punishes us for finite sins. He sends people to Hell for no other reason than not believing the right things or not worshiping him the right way. How is this just? Second, God destroyed the world with a flood in Genesis 6-9, save eight people. God drowned men, women, children, elderly people, disabled people, infants, and fetuses. How is this just? I can give you a number of Bible illustrations that directly challenge your assertion that the Bible God is just.
Karen said: So in our society/culture right now, today, you can see how fluid morality can become. When you throw away the standard, then, we get to make up stuff!! Woo Hoo!! So the more people that believe in their own standards of morality, the more bizarre/fluid/subjective things become in any society or country. That’s been my observation.
Bruce said: Be specific. What are we making up? Please stop dancing around the issue.
Karen said: When you take a quick trip, around the globe, you can see what other countries look like.-Authoritarian ruled countries that sees themselves to be like a god themselves… North Korea, Russia and China, just to name a few.
Bruce said: And we have numerous European and Scandinavian countries that are secular, often socialist states. Same goes for some Asian countries. Besides, our previous president, Donald Trump was a fascist and an authoritarian.
Karen said: I believe that our Creator has given us our value, worth, and basic human rights per the Declaration of Independence. That’s exactly where it comes from.. I have no doubt!
Bruce said: Karen, this is a claim, not evidence. What evidence do you have that your peculiar God gives us value, worth, and human rights? Remember, the founding fathers were not Evangelicals.
Karen said So, I don’t believe in slavery! If you like the Jesus, in the Bible, that claimed to be God, then, you know God does not approve of slavery. No person, that I know, believes in slavery of any kind.
Bruce said: I see you didn’t address the Bible verses another commenter posted about slavery. It is impossible to argue from the Bible that the Bible God is anti-slavery. Take a hard look at those verses and get back to me.
Karen said: Selling human beings for sex seems to be a growing problem, in 2023, in some people’s minds. Sickening!
Bruce said: God gave pagan girls to the Israelites for the purpose of sexual gratification. Evidently, God is okay with selling human beings for sex.
Karen said: So slavery is a strawman argument, just like the other passage, in Luke, that was brought up earlier by someone else. It’s too easy to dispute! Next!
Bruce said: If it is so easy to dispute, why have you not done so? I can tell you as someone with a Bible college education, the Bible does indeed approve of slavery for non-Jews. The NT is no better. Paul thought owning human beings was acceptable. You either need to honestly engage on this subject or admit that you are out of your depth here. A good book on this subject is Dr. Joshua Bowen’s book on what the Bible says about slavery. Give it a read and get back to me. I’ll even buy the book and have it sent to you.
Karen said: I believe Jesus Christ is who He said, He was. I find no fault in Jesus Christ.
Bruce said: Okay?
Karen said: Got more thoughts or questions? Fire away! I hope I answered them for you to your satisfaction. Thanks for answering mine! I’ll answer more later….
Bruce said: You definitely haven’t answered them to my satisfaction. You have made a lot of assertions and claims, but have provided little evidence for them. Going forward, you might want to focus on claims you think you can defend. Right now, you sound like a preacher. 🙂
Sage, I’m sorry my writing style is so jumbled sounding. Writing out my thoughts leaves much to be desired, I agree. I am saying that our own morality is subjective. God’s morality is not. It’s absolute! It remains the same too. Ours is ever changing.
If morality comes from God, how can it possibly be subjective?
Yes this just confirms my suspicions of exactly what you are trying to sell. This is a cis hetero-normative Caucasian view of the world which requires everyone live by the rules you deem proper and take on the roles that you declare to be defined by your beliefs and are immutable.
Your arguments are hard to follow and appear to be self contradictory. Perhaps this is because you believe in something that you do not truly understand and only repeat what you hear. Or perhaps you know it is hard to logically defend such bigotry, so like others, you dance around the subject trying to avoid any real discussion or analysis so that you do not have to face the reality of what you believe.
That’s quite a profound comment, Karen. I’ve never seen another apologist claim that our morality is subjective (which common sense tells us must be true) whilst stating that God’s is objective. Trouble is how does God negotiate the logical paradoxes that involve objective morality, and how do we access God’s morality, given that the bible is a) hopelessly confused on the subject (at best) and b) to accept the morality of the bible requires subjectivity?
You said you were a former preacher, Bruce. I think you know all about what the standard of God’s morality looks like and where it’s found. It’s sprinkled throughout God’s written word. It never changes. So there’s the 10 commandments for starters.
We know what is right and wrong. We have a God-given conscience. IMO.
Where does our worth, value and basic human rights come from? It doesn’t come from the government. It comes from our Creator per the Declaration of Independence. Our Creator is a higher power. A Creator creates….
A government serves the people in our country. The government serves us in protecting the value, worth and human rights that comes from our Creator! Governments fail! Humans fail!
In God we Trust was written on our money to make a statement about our nation by our President at the time. We are NOT a godless/socialist/ communist country…. just as a friendly reminder to “whom it may concern” worldwide. I realized that already.
At the same time, our country allows ALL belief systems to exist and are not to be suppressed. Other countries fight among themselves when they have a slightly different worldview or beliefs. In the Islamic world, they call themselves either Sunni or Shia and have been fighting each other for decades.
So far so good for us, so far. No civil war in my lifetime, although, Jane Fonda did mention something about murdering pro-life politians, the other day, so that threat was pretty unnerving but somehow not surprising!
Our values & believes are similar to those coming from Judaism. So there’s the connection to us.
My 96 year old uncle recited the Lord’s prayer in his public school classroom everyday but no one was compelled to become a Christian aka Christ follower. It was the culture back then.
The culture I grew up in was different in public school but we still felt safe. My classmates brought their guns to school everyday and left them in their trucks. No one was afraid of them at all.
Some lady named Madalyn, I think, demanded that God and prayer be removed from the public schools. I can’t remember the details…..I was really young. I remember being allowed to have a moment of silent prayer, in school, after the Pledge of Allegiance. That was removed after a while.
I worry about my brother teaching in the public school system, in 2023. He said he can tell which student that could easily be the next school shooter. That’s just for starters! He works in the alternative school trying to help them stay in HS and graduate. He tries to show the kids there’s another way. He mentors kids with the local mentoring programs trying to make a difference their lives. He fosters kids too. It’s heartbreaking for sure! Changing culture……
I was just listening to Alice Cooper’s testimony. ( he’s also a PK) He said when a person decides to be a Christ follower, they have decided they aren’t god anymore. Right on!!
He said, until we understand who we are, and who God is, nothing will make sense to us when it comes to morals etc… Until that understanding comes, we just do what seems right to us!
Alice Cooper did just that until the Dr. told him he had 2 months left to live. Then, he decided maybe there actually was a right and wrong way to live! He knew exactly what that looked like from his upbringing. He knew where to turn when he was helpless to help himself. He wasn’t a god, unto himself, after all. His words…..
I got hung up on the OT and God’s judgement on full display at times. It’s harsh!! He hates sin and He believes in justice. He is …. God.
I fully understand why Jesus Christ came into the world. He claimed to be God in the flesh. So everyone gets to be God but Jesus? What do you say?
Many people are convinced because of the evidence of goodness & love! Others are convinced because of the evidence, of the opposing unseen forces, of hate and evil.
I’m right there with the later ones that can clearly see the unseen forces of darkness, at work, in the hearts and minds of the human race.
I
You don’t even have to acknowledge the existence of God or Satan to join right in either way… it happens.
I believe that what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
I can only share with you from my own experience. It’s taken a lifetime to become rock solid in my faith. Faith is a belief in things unseen.
.I learn something new everyday. My spiritual eyes are opened more and more everyday. I grow more and more convinced that the human race has some serious problems!! At this point, it’s undeniable. What’s the solution? As you know, there will be someone that appears to have the solution. Peace, peace……
Karen,
Regurgitating what you previously said is not evidence, nor does doing so answer the questions you’ve been asked. If this is going to be your approach, there’s no discussion to be had, and you might as well move on.
You are a presuppositionalist. By “faith” you believe your peculiar God created everything, the Bible is inerrant and infallible, and humans innately know and understand God’s moral standard. These are claims, not evidence; preaching points, not facts. If you want me to accept your claims, you must provide evidence for your claims. Faith is not evidence. Faith is what Christians run to when they don’t have evidence.
There are over 600 commands, laws, precepts in the Bible. Do you keep all of them? Do you keep the Sabbath? (Bruce sets trap.) 🤣
You justify the immoral acts of God by saying “he’s God, he can do whatever he wants.” That includes immoral behavior? Can an action be moral for God, but immoral for humans?
Do you know most Jews are atheists? That you think that there are similarities between Judaism and Christianity shows you don’t know much about Judaism. Go make your claim to a Jew and see what response you get.
I repeat “In God We Trust” was put on money and put in the Pledge as a response to godless communism. You now claim the Creator in the Declaration of Independence is a “higher power” — a deistic claim. Yet you have repeatedly said this Creator is the God of the Christian Bible. Which is it?
This comment makes clear you don’t understand the separation of church and state. You know what you have been told or indoctrinated with as a PK. Otherwise, you would know Madalyn Murray O’Hair’s successful lawsuit had to do with state sponsored, teacher directed prayer and Bible readings. Evidently, you are fine with unbelieving children being indoctrinated in sectarian religion — namely Christianity. Suppose I wanted to lead public school students in prayer to Satan? Or do civil rights only apply to people who believe as you do?
If you think all beliefs are allowed to exist in this country, you’ve not been paying attention. Book bans, non-Christian clubs banned, demonizing of LGBTQ people, especially transgender people — all perpetrated by people who believe the United States is a Christian nation; people who have theocratic ambitions.
All of us do what “seems” right to us. You just hide your subjectiveness in religious verbiage.
I really have nothing more to say.
Karen, why don’t you just stop with the pointless, meandering posts you write and just say it. You keep dancing around, perhaps because you know that if you clearly state your white Christian nationalist screed then your bigotry will be revealed.
For your gods sake, just own it. I much prefer people who openly display bigotry over those who try to hide it behind illogical and senseless dialogue while tossing out bibles and false concern.
Living in the UK, where guns are to all intents and purposes banned, I shake my head at your comment. The casual way in which you refer to school pupils taking guns to school is just mind blowing! And you think that should be part of God’s morality? The rest of the western world looks on askance at this nonsense, whilst experiencing a level of gun crime a tiny fraction of that which exists in the US. I suggest you come back and lecture us on morality when you’ve eliminated school shootings.
Karen, you assume there are just two possibilities, objective morality (which you don’t actually explain) or deciding for ourselves what is right and wrong (referred to by some as mob rule). This is a false dichotomy. I can’t speak to your claim to objective morality (I challenge you to provide a lucid explanation that might appeal to an atheist), but I can assure you that it is ridiculous to claim that the alternative position is everyone for themselves. Societies have existed for countless thousands of years and to ensure cohesion have had to work out and develop rules of behaviour. Within a society a consensus emerges as to rules governing our interactions with other people and the communities around us, what we call morality and ethics. It often appears obvious how to behave, such as not killing or not stealing, but scratch the surface just a little and complexity emerges that can’t possibly be addressed by a rules based (objective) morality. People disagree on the least things (just look at the disagreement about abortion), and situations emerge constantly which could never be contemplated by any form of objective morality.
I would finish only with this quote you provided
“I know what I believe and why I believe it.”
I’m not actually convinced that either of these statements is true, and certainly not the latter. If you properly address the ‘why’ then you’ll find that your entire case disappears in a cloud of smoke.
So Geofft. Morality isn’t subjective because we all don’t agree as a human race. It’s got to be definitive as a standard for civilized countries. If not, take a trip around the world. to see how that plays out. It’s not pretty in many places. If you’re okay with the results… go for it! I’m not!
I know what I believe and why I believe it, isn’t true? LOL…. Don’t you think that you should feel the same way about your own belief system? I mean…. if you don’t know what you believe and why you believe it, what good is it?
Okay, define the word morality and where we find this objective moral standard you speak of. Time to end the dance. Please be precise.
The United States is a Christian nation. How’s that working out for us. A violent, primarily Evangelical Christian, mob tried to overthrow the Federal government on 1/6. Why didn’t objective Christian morality (along with the indwelling of the Spirit) keep them from doing what they did?
Karen, your god’s love is not unconditional. The concept of “salvation,” conditional on accepting Jesus, puts the final nail in that coffin.
And if you need the “authority” of an imaginary sky daddy to keep you from cheating on your husband, by all means keep believing until you mature enough to figure out how morality really works.
There are communities of Haredi/Orthodox Jews, and hijab-wearing Muslims nearby, who think I am immoral for my manner of dress and for eating pork. Karen Dillard’s Bible says women should be covered up, wearing plain clothes, and not doing their hair. Does she comply with her own holy book’s instructions on that matter? Maybe she does. But I won’t comply with the Bible, Torah, or Quran on women’s mode of dress.
Humans evolved over time to develop codes of behavior that were considered acceptable by their societies. Heck, even the Bible supported enslavement of other human beings, but most societies today agree that enslavement is morally and legally wrong. Humans evolve, and overall we are progressing toward more equality and respect. While Ms Dillard may want to point to her Bible as a great source for moral code, even in the New Testament slavery is NOT soundly condemned. You’d think a communication from a Real Live Deity would be clear in its condemnation of rape, enslavement, treatment of children, etc.
The Bible writings are useful for understanding what people in those time periods considered important. But that’s it.
another not bright christian. Alas, their morality is just as subjective as anyone’s with each making up what they want to pretend their god agrees with, and with so many of them showing that they have no problem with god that does things that, hopefully, they would be aghast if a human did the same.
I will be provocative and ask this: What, exactly, do you mean by morality?
Like Obstaclechick, I live close to Orthodox/Haredi Jews and hijab-wearing Muslims. As she says, they consider eating pork (and shellfish, in the case of Orthodox Jews) or the ways we dress “immoral.” They also consider loving anyone in a manner that cannot lead to procreation a violation of their moral codes. There are other behaviors and ideas they consider “immoral.” On what basis, exactly? Some are indeed spelled out in their “holy” texts–which are written by fallible human beings.
On the other hand, I practice (or try to) other things, and hold values, they would consider “moral”: I am honest in my dealings with people, I do no harm (or as little as possible) and believe that people should be treated with dignity and respect. Why? It just makes sense: In my experience, people tend to mirror whatever light you shine (or hide) from them. We get along better, and societies function better, when aggression isn’t rewarded and people can trust each other and their institutions. All you have to do is look at countries like Denmark, Finland and Switzerland–which, by the way, are among the most secular in the world–and compare them with places where some people are devalued because of who they are and violence is the norm.
Oh, and in those European countries, people–even the more religious ones–don’t pontificate about “morality” or its divine source. They know that they have low rates of social inequality and crime in part because they have come to realize that things work better and people are happier when they understand that it’s in their personal and mutual interest to help, whether on an individual or institutional level, each other.
When I hear religious people talk about “morality”–especially when they cite a Bronze Age text (to which they impute divine origins)–I hear it as a code word for “control.”
No, I don’t believe morality is a code word for control. Morality is what makes a civilized country… civil. It’s kin to the rule of law. We don’t think it’s right to steal from others, we don’t think it’s right to lie or cheat… you know, things like that.
Karen Dillard:
Hello…I’d like to ask you a question:
Is slavery moral?
Or incest, polygamy, rape, and genocide. I would love ❤️ to have a discussion on whether the Bible is the moral standard for all humans for all time. 🤣🤣
No, incest, polygamy, rape and genocide are morally wrong. God is not a fan of genocide of the born or the unborn. Speaking of polygamy… what is your definition of marriage? Is it just between 2 people? Or more? Here’s why I ask… have you ever heard of thruples? People are finding love with 3 people (or more) not just 2. So if love is love, why can’t 3 or more people be married? The definition of marriage is also subjective? Ever changing?? Not to be defined! If you aren’t prepared to define marriage again, then, keep an open mind to polygamy in defining marriage. My definition remains the same.. ONE man and ONE woman. Our society disagrees with me…. What say you??
Karen, Having read more of your posts, I am starting to get a very strong sense of who and what you are. But I am sure you will just keep whistling. You do you, but I don’t think you will find many dogs here.
“ No, incest, polygamy, rape and genocide are morally wrong. ”
Karen, you’ve introduced a category error here by including polygamy. Incest, rape, and genocide are wrong (though you’d like subjectively to include abortion in the definition, which I subjectively disagree), but polygamy isn’t necessarily wrong. It requires consent (distinguishing it from incest and rape) and nobody is harmed (distinguishing it from genocide). You have decided on a definition of marriage that works for you, but that doesn’t mean that you are universally right. Whilst modern western cultures now embrace the concept of marriage more widely than between simply a man and a woman, they do balk at the idea of polygamy, yet is it so wrong?
It’s interesting that there are so many opinions on the subject, and I have to wonder where on earth you think you can base your claim that morality is somehow objective in the light of this.
The Bible is riddled with examples of mass genocide, ordered by or committed by God. Are we meant to believe this being is therefore an example of objective morality?
Coming late to this, Karen. I’d like to say that I feel very relative about things you mention and more relative and less relative about various issues. I think incest is primarily dealt with somatically and probably via evolution over time. Don’t know for sure… A ‘parental’ naturally experiences aversion to incest BECAUSE of their evolutionary relationship with the offspring. This mechanism is perhaps similar to sensuality in life before maturity and after sexual maturity. Is ‘Choice’ involved in this? In some manner, sure but ultimately the issue has much more to do with evolutionary progression/digression. Christian black-and-whiters like to say it is all about sin and Jesus helping people resist such things as incest by admitting they are evil and need God’s action in their lives to avoid all kinds of sin. It’s a rather dull take on the human condition, isn’t it?
Multi-partner patterns and choices may also have some foundation in evolutionary changes but I am not suffciently studied to take any particular perspective. Thruples does not seem much of a ‘reach’ to me and I would personally have no interest in recommending it myself because of my experience as part of a couple, the glories and miseries being quite sufficient to me. Nevertheless, my own experience does not impel me to go-Christian black and white Bible thumping about the matter…. just not interested.
As for rape, I prefer attitudes and actions that are in concert with agreement among people, not forcing. Where Christian men disregard a partner’s wishes and force sex, I see ignorance and fault, regardless their rights as God-males. I cannot agree with forced touch etc. except in order to maintain the sovereignty of self and/or others. To harm another physically/mentally is a losing equasion in just the same way war is loss for all. Evolution makes missteps too in how eons unfold into eons.
As for genocide, well, c’mon Karen. God is genocide and kills at whim but that is okay with you because you choose the easy black-and-white, sinner view. You sit in comfortable denial and completely ignore your God’s hatreds, the willingness to wipe babies off the face the earth from the day the sperm and egg greet. Your view of the ‘obvious’ in human affairs is not sufficient for me and does not fully enough honor humanity.Your ‘sinfulness’ is what you seem to truly embrace, the loss you choose to bury inside you, perhaps. I say this all to you in speculation because I don’t know you from Adam, as they say. But from the moment I saw your surname, I liked you because Pilgrim at Tinker Creek! That’s a human thing…
All the best weather to you, Karen but don’t hang around this neighborhood any more unless you want to learn to admit you don’t know better than humankind. To be ‘content’ around here, you must learn to give up ideas that don’t stand up to human scrutiny even if your ‘God’ is telling you otherwise. Let’s just say, respect yourself and others and you’ll do just fine around here. Think awhile on the Sage saying something about the relationship between people and dogs. I found thinking on that statement quite fruitful. Thanks Sage!
No, slavery is not morally right neither is polygamy or abortion etc… Do you agree?
You have to define what you mean by these words. I previously asked you — which you ignored:
“Okay, define the word morality and where we find this objective moral standard you speak of. Time to end the dance. Please be precise.”
Is the Bible your objective standard for morality? If not, what is? Again, please be precise.
If the Bible is your objective moral standard, then you must defend the fact that slavery, polygamy, incest, rape, and genocide were both permitted and commanded by your God.
As far as abortion is concerned, it is not immoral to have one. Over 80 percent of abortions occur in the first trimester, well before vitality. I prefer we not get sidetracked on the abortion issue. I have written extensively on the subject. Please do a search if you really want to know my beliefs on abortion.
It even tells you HOW to induce an abortion in the bible
Karen, are you a Christian Nationalist?
Karen:
Yes, I agree slavery is immoral…here’s your problem:
OT:
Lev: 25:44-46…here’s god’s command to buy slaves from the nations around them…that they become your property, and that you can bequeath them to your children as an inheritance.
In Exodus 21:20-21 it says you can beat your slaves, as long as they don’t die within a day or two.
NT:
Eph: 6:5: slaves, obey your masters
Col: 3:22: slaves obey your masters
And my personal favorite,
1 Peter: 2:18: slaves obey your masters, even the cruel/harsh ones.
Now the question…how did you decide that slavery is immoral when your holy book tells you that it is perfectly acceptable to own, buy, and bequeath slaves? In other words, MORAL.
Please answer the question at hand.
I don’t blame you for not wanting to touch abortion because that’s at the heart of all our basic human rights. We were created by the Creator ( whatever that means to you) per the Declaration of Independence. I’ll repeat myself, again, our rights do not come from any government. Our rights come from our Creator! That’s the bedrock of our country’s worldview on basic human rights.
So when the US government legalized abortion, they are going against our Declaration of Independence. The government doesn’t give us our basic human right to life! It continues to fail over and over again on this issue. Past, present and future!
Our basic human rights come from our Creator. A Creator creates! The government is created to protect that right! It’s failed on so many levels over the years! Thankfully, not everyone puts trust and faith in our fellow human beings or government.
If there wasn’t LIFE in the womb, why would you need to destroy it? Let that sit for a moment.
Because that’s the way we ALL enter this world?? There’s no other way!
Moving right along with our basic human rights….
We have the right to destroy it … because the life is unwanted?? Dehumanized?? Not viable? You can also define the unborn human LIFE as a parasite. That should be justifiable, right??
As newborn’s we can’t sustain life on our own. We depend on someone else to take care of us after birth too… we are helpless! We would die without outside care for our very lives!
Was your life, in your mother’s womb, defined as a parasite? If so, why not? Was it because you were wanted? Was your own life, in the womb, seen as nonviable, at some point, worthy of being destroyed? Viability has changed a lot in 2023, hasn’t it? So has your opinion/thoughts of viability changed as well?
The way Roe v Wade is structured, it’s legal to have an abortion up to birth. The physician just has to check a box on the mother’s “health”. It’s not defined at all. A former abortionist said he saw the unborn, that he performed a legal surgical abortion on, as a PROBLEM for the mother. A perfectly healthy fetus that was too big to fit in the suction tube. He could help her with the PROBLEM.
It only hit him when he saw, with his own eyes, that this was actually another human being. not simply a PROBLEM! It hit him when he was putting the pieces back together to make sure he got it all. He identified himself as an Atheist, in case you’re wondering.
To believe that abortions only occur when the human being’s life is small enough to fit in the suction tube is naïve. It’s violence in the womb at all stages of life before birth!
Morally, we should be able to agree on abortion in the USA. Our abortion laws are among the most liberal in the entire world. I think we are 1 of 9 countries, worldwide, with such liberal abortion laws. I think China and North Korea are on the list with us. Sickening!
Morality is subjective in the hearts and minds of the human race when you throw out the standard. No one can agree on what it looks like! I see a standard that looks like perfection to me. There’s no another way to describe it.
Subjective morality looks like death, confusion and chaos to me. Everyone believes in something different which leaves you with no objective morality at all. So whatever it looks like to you is what it is, I suppose.
I have a friend that is transitioning on the Appalachian Trail. It looks painful and like lots of confusion. Hospital visits has been part of the journey because of HRT therapy. Despite all of that, a recent post was a meme picturing a good looking male wearing a fire fighter’s uniform and a good looking female. Picture Daisy Duke on the Dukes of Hazzard…. the meme was intended to show what HRT can do for the transformation from male to female, outside of surgery, I guess?? I can see clearly now!
I believe we need to accept the fact that there’s a higher standard than one we construct in our own minds.
Whether our culture believes it’s okay to kill another human being, in the womb, to believing in trying to change biology, both of which was created, by God, go for it! I can’t go for it!
I’m not brainwashed or indoctrinated! I think for myself and more of a prodigal than how you judged me without even knowing me or asking me. There’s so much to unpack here!
I believe we are all pilgrims. We have a lot in common with each other and are the same. We are all chasing the same thing, just taking different paths to find it. Some paths lead to more confusion and questions. Some paths lead to answers and peace. Peace with who God is and who we are! I like what I see in the divine, and human also, in Jesus Christ. I’m a follower of Jesus Christ! Unashamed!
Karen,
I’ve tried to be patient and kind with you, I really have. However, all you are doing is “preaching”; as if the readers of this blog haven’t ever heard Fundamentalist preaching before. My hope was to draw you into a meaningful discussion on these issues, but it is evident that I have failed.
Anyone raised in Evangelical churches — especially preachers’ kids — have been conditioned and indoctrinated. Tis the nature of the beast.
I am fine with talking about abortion. That said, I view it as a distraction; an attempt to distract from what I see as inherent weaknesses and contradictions in your arguments.
I have written extensively on the subject of abortion.
Search is your friend:
http://brucegerencser.net/?s=Abortion
If you want to discussion Abortion with me, I’m game. All I ask is that you stop with the preaching and hysterics. What’s next? Pictures of aborted fetuses? Even though 88% of abortions take place in the first trimester; that most late term abortions — about 12,000 a year — are the result of fatal/serious birth defects or threats to the life of the mother?
If you plan on commenting again, please stop preaching. I realize you may not think or realize you are preaching, but you are. I suspect the regular readers of this blog — many of whom are Christians — will agree with me. If you can’t or won’t stop preaching, then I’ll give you one final comment to say whatever it is you think your peculiar version of God wants you to say.
Bruce
Karen, there is no creator, Declaration of Independence or not. Everywhere we look it’s obvious that there is only nature, nature slowly carving its way, be it rocks or thunderstorms or human life. And on the subject of human life…life begins at birth, as evidenced by the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and, wait for it, the Holy Bible. Therefore abortion is acceptable. Prove that I’m wrong.
Karen, when I read your posts all I hear is Charlie Browns teacher.
You spew paragraphs of bullshit about human rights while you ignore other peoples human rights. You think you see human rights as a big deal, even for the unborn, yet hidden between the lines is your unspoken support of white Christian nationalist hate and bigotry.
I have an idea, let’s start with something that should be so easy that even you can answer in 3 easy sentences or less – My right, as a non binary person, to exist. Can you recognize my right to exist and tell me that I am a valid person and no one has a right to to legislate me out of existence, and people can actually talk about me in schools? Can you then you publicly stand up and defend my right to exist and be equal to any other cis straight person? Can you acknowledge the creator made me and therefor I have the right to exist equal to you?
Until you can do this, your words are nothing more than hollow, self centered, moralistic, white Christian nationalist, bigotry based, pontificating.
Atheist Adam Lee recently wrote:
“Nature (or the Christian god, if you think he’s real) kills far more unborn babies than desperate women do. The Centers for Disease Control report that 620,000 American women and girls terminate pregnancies yearly—but spontaneous abortion wipes out around twice as many, according to a 2018 estimate by University of California researchers. Other studies estimate that one-fourth of all pregnancies abort naturally, usually because of chromosome defects in the fetus. Why are fundamentalists silent about the millions killed by their supposed god?”
Karen: A fairer (to yourself and others) honesty would have stopped you at your words, “Subjective morality looks like death, confusion and chaos to me…” That is a true statement. After that you leave yourself alone, go into a church and close the door to Karen.
Karen: “I’m not brainwashed or indoctrinated! I think for myself.. I’m a follower of Jesus Christ! Unashamed!” Um, yeah. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. And in a shrilly tone, as well. Also, what’s this bit about someone who is getting HRT being on the Appalachian Trail? I suppose this is a clumsy attempt at a metaphor? Brush up on your writing skills, Karen, please, before you try that again! 🧐