Derek Lambert operates the Mythvision YouTube channel. A former Evangelical Christian, Lambert makes informative videos about Biblical and historical subjects. Excellent videos, for the most part, though I find the clickbait titles annoying.
Two or so years ago, Lambert embroiled himself in a conflict over having mythicist Dr. Robert M. Price on his channel. The conflict, however, was not over mythicism. The issue was Price’s racism and his support of right-wing, MAGA beliefs. Why was Lambert platforming a man such as Price? supporters, friends, and acquaintances wanted to know. There’s a lot to the Price Saga, but the bottom line is this: with much weeping and gnashing of teeth, Lambert condemned Price and deplatformed him.
Fast forward to two weeks ago. Lambert reversed course, kissed and made up with Price, and with weeping and gnashing of teeth, attacked the “online atheist community.” He called the “online atheist community” a cult. He has retreated from the cult claim by editing the video title to hyperbolically say “Toxic People are Trying to Destroy Careers.” Contrary to what Lambert thinks, no one is trying to ruin him or destroy his career. If he has evidence that suggests otherwise, he needs to cough it up. I seriously doubt any hairball is forthcoming. Lambert can be hysterical at times, and I suspect the title issue is more about his hysteria than anything else.
What was a skirmish with a handful of largely unknown online atheists, Lambert turned it into an attack on the “online atheist community” in general.
Lambert and Price are now best buds. The bad people in this story, according to Lambert, are woke, pro-trans, online atheists who dare to call Price what he is — a bigot and a racist.
It’s evident, at least to me, that Lambert’s politics have moved to the right, more in line with Price’s politics. It would not shock me to hear in a few years that Lambert has (again) seen the light and is returning to Christianity.
Some atheists think Lambert is a grifter; he thinks he can make more money by platforming people such as Robert Price. Maybe. I do know that Lambert’s “I’m Done” video ends with an infomercial advertising his wife’s channel that sells online educational programs. So, there’s that. The ad is out of place, so much so that you are left to wonder if all the junior high whining about the “online atheist community” is a pretext; that the real goal is to sell shit.
I tried to engage Lambert several times over the years — without success. Evidently, I wasn’t high enough up the “online atheist” food chain for him to bother with me. Granted, I’m somewhat of a loner, hanging out on the fringes of the so-called “online atheist community.” This allows me to say my piece and not care what online atheists think. This means, of course, I won’t be invited to be on this or that channel, and that’s okay. I have much to offer, as many fellow creators have learned, but, for some atheist creators, I’m too liberal, too woke, or too religion-friendly, I’m told. Fair enough, but I am who I am, and I believe what I believe. Derek Lambert needs to figure out who he is, what he believes, and act accordingly. You can’t be all things to all people.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, shares with his readers how to reach sinners, unbelievers, and atheists for Jesus. What follows are quotes from his recent posts. These should give Christians and unbelievers alike a snapshot of how he interacts with and responds to unbelievers.
Maybe he’s not interested in evangelizing sinners as much as he is being right. This doesn’t surprise me. Christian Fundamentalists like to talk about winning souls for Christ, but it seems to me that what they really care about is being absolutely right.
Let me know you think in the comment section.
Dr. David Tee, In His Own Words
Unbelievers like taking common and legitimate aspects of writing and distorting them into something they are not.
BG at the end of his post gets upset that we have ‘impugned’ his character. Yet, he should not do it to God if he doesn’t want to have it done to him.
Another misunderstanding and misrepresentation of God and his actions.
Another wholesale misrepresentation and a personal attack thrown in.
Another misrepresentation and distortion. BG generalizes the commands to make his point, which undermines his credibility and ruins his honesty. He is not being honest even after being told the correct explanation about God’s commands.
The unbelieving moral standard is inferior and allows for sin and corruption to flourish.
The unbeliever is not in any position to judge God and His commands. Their idea of morality is worse than what they accuse God of being. Their definitions of the acts commanded are just as subjective and fluid as their moral code. The unbelievers’ moral code is not infallible nor omnipresent like God’s.
Not one of those accusations thrown against God is true.
At this point, we stop responding and addressing the falsehoods and misrepresentations written by BG. At the end he makes this claim that he has not murdered or raped so he must be a good man and we are impugning his character. Our response to that silly claim is HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!
He does it to himself by purposefully lying, misrepresenting the facts, the Bible, God, etc., distorting the topics, and being dishonest in his points. We are not impugning his character but pointing out where he is wrong. Which we are allowed to do.
The only way to continue these types of discussions is if the unbeliever is honest, has an open mind, and will listen to your facts honestly and sincerely. Close-minded people like BG and MM only hear what they want to hear, then look for ways to misrepresent what was said.
Speaking of MM, he wrote a response to our mind your own business and his only point was– ‘I will write on any topic I want to’– such a stubborn, close-minded individual who does not get the fact that what he has to say means nothing because he is not qualified to speak on many topics.
They do not use all the facts, just the ones that support their deceptive point of view. They are not honest.
it is not the Christian who is ignorant, but the unbeliever who does not do very good research and only cherry picks the information they will use in their faulty attacks on God, the Bible and Christians.
When believers say things, it is often the case that unbelievers will ‘fact-check’ them. Then when the fact check turns up different information, they label Christians as liars.
This is another lie, as using corporal punishment is not beating a child or a student. But BG will not agree with that as he seeks to paint a false picture of us and what we believe. We could say that Bg does not care about innocent teachers or that teachers are being assaulted in the classrooms just by using his logic, but we won’t.
BG should know better than to lie about us, especially when he was not there nor knows anything about the topic he writes.
What a crock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. This discovery only says that despite their claims to be rational and logical, scientists are great fairy tale writers.. They spin a good yarn that deceives millions of people, and that is wrong.
The scientists are not getting to the truth at all, but making everything up as they go.
But unbelievers like to think they get to dictate who will do what and do it according to their views. They forget there are others in the world who have the same rights and do not want them infringed upon.
This is another headline we came across, and we know the author [Bruce Gerencser] likes to word his headlines in a way that distorts what is going on.
The unbelievers’ solutions have been to remove God, prayer, specific punishments, and other similar aspects of school life and replaced them with ideas that do not work.
This is another ridiculous thing to say, as the unbeliever takes them out of context and misapplies them to whatever troubling thought they have on their minds. The unbeliever writing those words has no concept of what human flourishing means as he wants sin and corruption to abound at the expense of those doing what is right and moral.
But the unbelieving writer [Bruce Gerencser] of those quoted words does not care if he writes the truth or not. He just wants to justify his departure from God. He also wants to misdirect people’s attention away from what the unbelieving world is doing.
Anything that the writer accuses God of doing, his side of the world is doing with less than holy and pure motives, and on a far grander scale. He and other unbelievers are in no position to accuse God of anything.
Unbelievers do not make distinctions between true and false preachers/teachers. They lump everyone into one category, then continue to make false accusations against all Christians.
Only in the minds of unbelievers and atheists is this done. They always need something to fuel their hatred of Christ, even by exploiting the nonsense spoken by false teachers.
Unbelievers and atheists will go to any length to justify their decision to reject the offer of salvation, even by extrapolating false claims made by false teachers to others not guilty of doing such a thing.
If they [unbelievers] were honest, they would separate the true from the false teachers and be more open-minded to the former while closed to the latter. But rarely are unbelievers and atheists honest when it comes to Christ, Christians, and those who pose as Christians.
These comments can be labelled as ‘they will never learn’, ‘they will never listen’, ‘they will complain no matter what’, and by they we mean unbelievers and atheists. We like to distinguish between the two even though they are all categorized under the unbelievers label.
Ignoring is the best option because unbelievers and atheists rarely accept the truth as the answer.
Unbelievers continue to deny God the right to punish people and animals for their disobedience, even though they do the same thing as parents or supervisors, etc. They will punish people for violating their rules or the rules of a company, which affects the loved ones and animals of those punished.
The unbeliever and atheist fail to see the entire side to these issues they complain about. They only want to have their desired results, even though it leaves sin and crime sin place. In their complaints, there is no option to punish those who disobey or commit crimes. The sinner is free to act as they will without fear of physically paying for their crimes.
Also, the unbeliever and atheist will attack and punish those who are living by the rules, making them nothing but toothless hypocrites. They will do exactly what they complain about and act the same as God acts. Only the target is different.
The unbelievers go after those who disagree with/disobey their views and rules and condemn themselves by the very complaints they make against God. Their complaints hold no water and do not lead anyone to a better way or paradise.
Leave it to unbelievers to get the opposition to trans ideology and practice wrong, and then twist it into something it is not. This is what MM [Ben Berwick] has done with his recent post.
No religious right individual or organization are attacking trans people. They are trying to relieve them of the delusions that enslaves the latter. There is no right for fake women to invade real women spaces. There is no right to call themselves women when they are not.
The only small minded bigots we find are trans people. You can see their bigotry any day of the week as it is recorded endlessly in the different news cycles as well as other media outlets.
He [Ben Berwick] deludes himself, as do many others, into thinking he is right when all he is doing is helping erase the lines of right and wrong, and what is defined as sin. He leads people to sin and that is wrong.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Scores of Evangelical Christians are questioning their beliefs, leading to what is commonly called “deconstruction.” Deconstruction is a process used to carefully examine beliefs and practices. Some people who deconstruct stay in their chosen belief system. Changes are made around the edges, belief-wise, but core doctrines remain unchanged. Others leave Evangelicalism, moving on to different sects and beliefs. Many people choose to reject religions, embracing spiritualism instead. And for others, deconstruction leads to a rejection of Christianity altogether. Many of these people become agnostics or atheists.
As more and more Evangelicals deconstruct, preachers take to their pulpits to “explain” why people deconstruct. More often than not, these preachers lie through their teeth as they give reasons for people deconstructing.
Over the weekend, I listened to a number of preachers attempting to explain why people deconstruct and leave their churches. Without exception, these so-called men of God lied about those leaving the faith. These preachers may be ignorant about deconstruction, but facts are but a Google search away. At best, these preachers are lazy. At worst, their objective is to smear the character of former believers, using former Christians as sermon illustrations or using them as a warning sign from God. I have critics who do this very thing by saying my health problems are a warning sign from God. “Look at what happened to Bruce Gerencser,” these preachers say. The problem with this line of stupidity is that my health problems predate my loss of faith. Any time I have a serious problem in my life, Evangelicals will claim that God is judging me for my alleged rebellion against the Almighty. How these Nostradamuses know their pronouncements are true is never stated. When I draw my last breath, you can count on these same critics taking to the Internet and their pulpits to say that I am now burning in Hell, facing the just consequences of having a doubting, questioning mind.
By far, the number one reason Evangelical preachers give for why people deconstruct is that the church has hurt them. While church hurt certainly plays a part in the deconversion process, I don’t know of anyone who says that “hurt” is the sole reason for walking away from Christianity. That said, Evangelical churches are known for shooting the wounded, sometimes causing mortal wounds. Go ahead and cross the preacher or disagree with him and see what happens. Go ahead and do or say something that the church’s power brokers (and every church has them) object to and see what happens. Oh wait, you know what will happen, because you have experienced it. Dare to walk your own path, expressing questions and doubts, and you will find yourself marginalized, ostracized, or excommunicated. Why would people want to remain in churches where they are treated as outsiders?
Another reason preachers use to explain why people deconstruct is that they secretly want to sin. Specifically, those who deconstruct want to commit licentious sexual immorality. Numerous critics of mine say that I left Evangelicalism because I am a closeted gay man. This, of course, is patently untrue. I don’t know of anyone who deconverted solely did so because they wanted to “sin.” Besides, the church has lots of “sinners” in its midst. The Black Collar Crime Series records the criminal behavior of over a thousand preachers — mostly Evangelicals who committed sex crimes. I have yet to read an article or hear a sermon about the problem Evangelicalism has with sexual misconduct. Why not focus on the “sin” within instead of judging, criticizing, and condemning those who are without?
Let me give you one more reason Evangelical preachers give for why people deconstruct. Preachers love to paint those who deconstruct as ignorant, superficial people; people who know very little about the Bible. This, of course, is patently untrue. Most of the people I know who deconverted spent countless hours re-examining their beliefs. What these preachers are most upset about is that the deconversion process exposes the shallowness of their preaching and calls into question what they teach and preach. Worse, it reveals that most Evangelical preachers are unable or unwilling to answer serious, challenging questions about Christianity and the Bible. When no suitable answers are forthcoming, people are told to just faith-it; that in time, God will soothe all doubts and answer all questions. People might have to wait until they die and enter the Pearly Gates, but all questions will one day be answered.
Most people deconvert because Evangelical Christianity no longer makes sense to them. Why are preachers afraid to admit that this is the primary reason people deconvert? To do so would call into question their ministry; their teaching, preaching, and way of life. Instead of serious introspection, preachers blame those who have lost their faith. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.)
If preachers truly want to know why people deconvert, I suggest that they actually talk to people who deconverted. Rarely does this happen. Most articles about deconversion are opinion pieces that lack any interviews with former Christians. Will preachers do this? Of course not. They have kingdoms and checkbooks to protect. I would love to be invited by local Evangelical churches to come share my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism. Surely, one former Christian’s testimony is no threat to the beliefs of others? Doesn’t the Bible say, “Greater is he that is in us, than he that is in the world?” I am no match for God, yet preachers fear that I will lead people astray if they ever hear from the horse’s mouth why I deconverted. Regardless, most Evangelicals have the Internet, and countless doubting/questioning Christians have contacted me for help. What reason do these people give for contacting me? Their pastors couldn’t or refused to answer their questions, or gave shallow, childish answers that they found unsatisfactory.
I suspect nothing will stem the tide of people deconstructing. It is clear, at least to me, that Evangelical churches/pastors/colleges have no answers for those who are desperately trying to hold on to their faith. Most doubters and questioners don’t want to deconvert, but the more they read and study, the more they realize that Evangelicalism no longer has answers for them. And when answers aren’t forthcoming, people will look elsewhere.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Many of these programs are call-in shows that encourage Christians to call in and defend their faith or answer questions about various teachings of the Bible. The answers upchucked by many of these Evangelical zealots are usually shallow, contradictory, and, at times, heretical. These defenders of the faith attend church multiple times a week, hearing the Word of God taught and preached. Some of the people who call in are pastors, evangelists, missionaries, and college professors. Sadly, many of their arguments and explanations are just as bad as people with no Bible college or seminary training. Some of these preachers need to quit preaching and go back to college to get a real education. Of course, a “real” education can and does lead to a loss of faith.
It is not uncommon for those who call these shows to complain about all the atheist programming on YouTube and TikTok. “Can’t you just keep your beliefs to yourself? Why do you have to cause people to doubt (or lose) their faith? Of course, when I put the shoe on the other foot and apply the same standard to Evangelicals, they stupidly think that only atheists should keep their mouths shut; that Evangelicals are commanded by God to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. However, what is good for the proverbial goose is good for the gander.
One apologist bitterly moaned and complained that atheists were using the Internet to target children. Guilty, as charged, though most social media providers have rules that prohibit young children from using their services. If your eight-year-old son is watching The Atheist Experience on Sundays, that’s on you, parents. Or you might question why your children are watching atheist programs like the ones mentioned above. If Christian children are watching atheist shows, it is a sign that they are not getting the answers they need from their parents, pastors, and churches. Children are Internet savvy. They know that the answers to their questions are a few clicks away. I have had numerous Christian teenagers and young adults contact me. I have had a few youthful readers send me questions to answer for a Christian school project of theirs. I always politely and honestly answer their questions, planting seeds that I hope will sprout and grow in time. I don’t press, push, or evangelize. I’m content to answer their questions, hoping that they develop rational, skeptical thinking skills.
I have been repeatedly asked over the years to stop publicly telling my story; that I was causing people to lose their faith. Here’s what I know: if the mere telling of my story directly causes Evangelical Christians to deconvert, their faith was on shallow ground to begin with. Many people already have one foot out the church door before they stumble upon my content. Regardless, I have no intention to stop telling my story or critiquing Evangelical Christianity.
Unlike many Evangelical churches, questions are always welcome on this site. I will do my best to answer them, and if I can’t, I will point questioners to authors and websites that can. More times than I can count, I have recommended readers read one or more books by Dr. Bart Ehrman. I know that doing so is the cure for Christian Fundamentalism and Bible inerrancy. Sadly, most people whom I recommend Ehrman to refuse to read his books. Why? Their pastors warned them about reading Bart’s books lest they lose their faith. It is a shallow faith, indeed, if one book can cause you to lose it. No single book caused me to deconvert. It took numerous books and podcasts to lead me out of the doors of the church. I suspect many of the readers of this blog will say the same thing.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Recently, I saw the above comment on a YouTube video. I have read similar comments countless times over the years; that I am leading people astray with my writing and videos and God is going to punish me in the afterlife for leading people, in Pied Piper-like fashion, to Hell.
According to this commenter, I need to understand that If I speak against the Bible and Jesus, I will not only lose my soul, I will also be eternally punished for leading people astray. This is yet another example of God meting out infinite punishment for finite behaviors. All I have ever done is tell my story and critique Evangelical Christianity. With all the things are going on in the world, you would think God would find better things to do than judge and punish people for things they say.
Not that I am worried. God is a myth, so I have no fear of being punished for my words and opinions. If you think otherwise, please share your evidence for the existence of God in the comment section.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Anyone who claims to be an Atheist should immediately lose any and all credibility with rational men, for an Atheist can be at most two of the following things: alive, rational, and honest. Naturally, this means that a living Atheist must be irrational or dishonest. The logic behind these conclusions is as simple as it is compelling: If there is no soul, this life is, in the end analysis, wholly and totally devoid of meaning. In the face of a meaningless existence, the only logical action is not to act. However, avoiding personal pain and suffering is also rational, so suicide (in order to avoid the pain and suffering entailed by simply waiting to die) is the most rational choice.
….
In the end analysis, then, the only rational choice for the Atheist is suicide. He can make an irrational choice or lie to himself (and to others) about his decision (i.e., be dishonest), but the logic is inescapable. For the Atheist, the following simple proposition shakes his worldview to its core and unseats his beliefs from what he believed was a foundation:
Atheist, [(alive)⊻(died of natural causes)]→[(rational)⊼(honest)]
Given an Atheist who is alive (or who died of natural causes), he cannot be (nor can he have been) both rational and honest. The Atheist must abandon reason or lie to himself and to others. Of course, he can also ‘opt out’. The Atheist who yet draws breath betrays his irrationality or his dishonesty with each and every breath. For the rest of us, we can remain secure in our belief that an Atheist should never be taken seriously.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Atheists often ask Evangelicals for evidence for the existence of God. Some Evangelicals will quote prooftexts from the Bible, as if this proves the existence of God. Of course, these quotes do no such thing. The Bible is a book of claims. It claims Jesus is God. It claims Jesus was born of a virgin. It claims Jesus worked miracles, including raising the dead. It claims Jesus resurrected from the dead. It claims Jesus ascended to Heaven. What evidence is provided for these claims? None. Unbelievers are just supposed to take Evangelicals at their word. The Bible says . . . end of discussion. If the Bible is the gold standard for evidence, Evangelicals shouldn’t expect many atheists to become Christians.
Many Evangelicals think personal testimonies are evidence for the existence of God. Again, much like the Bible, personal testimonies are claims, not evidence. Claims of healing and deliverance are just that — claims. How do we know God healed or delivered someone? We can’t. Evangelicals are free to believe that a cosmic being of some sort miraculously healed them or delivered them from adversity, but they shouldn’t expect skeptics to believe them.
What is evidence? Evidence is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.” By all means, Evangelicals, please use the comment section to provide facts or information that justify your faith claims. Telling us a personal story or quoting prooftexts will not suffice.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
In 2007, as a Christian — barely — who was struggling with his faith, I started blogging. For a time, I found the Emergent (or Emerging) Church a welcome respite from Evangelical Christianity, but I eventually found its core beliefs lacking too. A year later, I publicly announced that I was an agnostic, and a few months later, an atheist. I dropped the “agnostic” moniker because I got tired of having to explain repeatedly what the word meant. Currently, I self-identify as an agnostic atheist.
As a Christian blogger, I was repeatedly attacked and harassed by Evangelicals for my “liberal” beliefs — both theologically and politically. Then, as now, Evangelicals took one of two positions about my “faith.”
I never was a Christian.
I am still a Christian, but under the chastisement of God.
In November 2008, I attended church for the last time. Throughout my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism, I have blogged about my experiences and beliefs. Countless Evangelicals have come to this site, determined to set me straight about my beliefs. Thousands of emails, blog comments, and social media messages later, I have noticed certain tactics Evangelicals use to repudiate or evangelize me. Evangelicals are, if anything, predictable. And, to be fair, all of us can be predictable. I know I am, though I generally try to engage people where they are. That said, I’ve become quite adept at sniffing out motivations. I’ve had commenters go out of their way to “hide” their Evangelical beliefs. Often, they will try to suck me in with science or philosophy arguments — which is all the rage on YouTube. Usually, I don’t engage in discussions or debates about the existence of God or the beginning of the universe. I know some readers revel in such subjects, but, for me, I’m not that interested. Not that I lack knowledge sufficient to engage in such discussions. I am confident that I can hold my own. I just don’t find these discussions interesting. Rarely do they lead to satisfying conclusions. So I try to stay focused on Evangelicalism (and the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement) and the teachings of the Bible.
When commenters try to hide their Evangelical beliefs, I’ve become pretty good at cutting through their philosophical bullshit, forcing them to admit that they are not arguing for a generic deity, but the God of the Bible. Once they admit they are Evangelicals who base their beliefs on the teachings of the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Bible, I am ready to have a discussion with them. Sometimes, I will even grant their philosophical beliefs and then ask them how they connect this cosmic deity of theirs to the God of the Bible. Once trapped inside the pages of the Bible, it’s easier to discuss their beliefs.
This brings me to “Dr.” Arv Edgeworth. Edgeworth is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) evangelist from Ohio. Over the past several days, I have received numerous emails from Edgeworth, as has Carolyn, my editor. Edgeworth’s emails had an accusatory, judgmental tone, which is typical coming from IFB preachers. I have directly and pointedly answered Edgeworth’s emails (which you can read in the previous posts in this series). Not because I thought I could make a dent in Edgeworth’s thinking — you don’t argue Fundamentalist Baptists out of their beliefs. I’m content to engage such people, hoping that responses will be beneficial to others — especially lurkers. I have had Evangelical zealots who have engaged me in word-to-word combat return months later, admitting they were wrong or that they treated me poorly. I am always grateful when someone apologizes for their boorish behavior. Sadly, this doesn’t happen very often.
Unfortunately, some Evangelicals use their apologies as a ploy. This has happened often enough that I have a hard time accepting Evangelical apologies as genuine. The first question that comes to my mind is this: Is this a genuine apology? The second question is this: What are their motivations? Take Revival Fires (RF). RF is a terrible example of what it means to be a Christian. He has sent me numerous emails and left scores of comments on this site. He is a nasty, vile son of a bitch; someone who loves posting comments detailing prison rape and scat. Several years ago, I called out his behavior, using Bible verses to show that his behavior was not consistent with the teachings of the Bible. Afterward, I received a nice, respectful email from RF. He wanted to be “friends” with me. My response? Are you fucking kidding me? You shit on my doorstep, piss in my corn flakes, attack and harass my wife and children, and you want me to befriend you? Go fuck yourself. And get some therapy. Soon, RF went back to his putrid ways.
Other Evangelicals have taken this approach with me — mainly Independent Fundamentalist Baptists. I’ve received numerous apologies, only to have the person apologizing return to their hateful ways days or weeks later. As a result of past experiences, I am hesitant to believe people when they suddenly apologize after being so hostile towards me. Is their apology genuine? Time will tell, and I have found that most of them return to their hateful ways. Why? I can’t be certain, but I suspect hatred is part of their religious DNA. The IFB church movement, for example, is built upon a foundation of hate; not just ideas or beliefs, but people and institutions. When a Christian is exposed to this kind of thinking week after week, it is almost impossible for them to change their thinking. Possible, but hard. Typically, lasting change requires leaving the IFB church movement.
I’m sure you are thinking, Bruce, what the hell does this have to do with Arv Edgeworth? I know, I know, I’m a long-winded preacher. 🙂 Yesterday, I received the following email from Edgeworth:
I want to apologize, I have been pretty judgmental in my attitude, and I assumed some things I shouldn’t have. Sorry about that. In spite of our differences, maybe we can reach some common ground.
After this statement, Edgeworth took a conciliatory, friendly approach, attempting to connect with me. He sent me several more emails taking a similar tact. Is Edgeworth being genuine? I have no way of knowing. Time will tell. I certainly accept his apology, but the value of any apology is determined by how a person acts going forward. I don’t expect Edgeworth to agree with me or change his beliefs. What I do expect is that he treats me with respect and lets me tell my story on my own terms. I have had many delightful conversations with Christians over the years; people I had little in common with. It is possible for Evangelicals and atheists to get along. Possible, but not easy. Probable? Not likely, but I feel I should at least try to find common ground with people who hold different beliefs than mine. I’m not a debater. I prefer friendly back-and-forth discussions, say over dinner or a beer at the local pub. Sadly, many Evangelicals (and some atheists) take this approach instead:
This scene from Mars Attacks! — one of my favorite movies — shows how many people approach discussions about religion (and politics). I have no interest in eviscerating Evangelicals, including Edgeworth. I accept his apology, but time will tell whether it is genuine. If he reverts to the IFB norm, it is only a matter of time before I say or write something that will offend his Holy Ghost sensibilities. How will he react? I know how IFB preachers before him have acted, but maybe, just maybe, he will be an exception to the rule.
The ball is in Arv’s court. Will he see the ball? I don’t know, since he has repeatedly told me that he doesn’t plan to read this blog. That’s on him. I am more than willing to engage him in thoughtful discussion. One thing is for sure, Arv will get a lot more exposure as a result of our interaction. 🙂 I just did a Google Search on “Arv Edgeworth.” Three days in, and this site is already the third search result. 🙂 All praise be to Loki.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
An atheist, then, lacks belief in gods. That’s atheism in a nutshell.
I self describe as an agnostic atheist. Since I don’t possess all knowledge about the existence of one or more deities, I am agnostic on the God question. It is possible that at some point in the future, a god may make itself known to us. Unlikely, but possible.
As far as the extant deities are concerned, I am an atheist. I am convinced that the Abrahamic God is a myth. The same goes for the other gods humans created and worship. I have exhaustively studied the claims of Christianity. I am convinced these claims are false. I can’t imagine any evidence will be presented in the future to move me off the conclusion that the central claims of Christianity are false. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.)
Last week, I purchased a New Oxford NRSVue Study Bible. What an awesome, beautiful Bible. Don’t worry, I don’t plan on returning to Christianity. I haven’t read the Bible from cover to cover for seventeen years. I thought I would reread it and do some writing about what I learn. One series I want to write will detail the violent God of the Bible. Fun times ahead, Loki-willing. 🙂
Antitheism, also spelled anti-theism, is the philosophical position that theism should be opposed. The term has had a range of applications. In secular contexts, it typically refers to direct opposition to the belief in any deity.
Antitheists are actively opposed to gods and religions.
I am not an antitheist. I am indifferent towards religions that keep to themselves and don’t stick their noses in my life and the lives of other unbelievers. I have Christian friends, mainly liberal believers. I also have acquaintances who are Unitarians or practice earth-based religions. Their religious practices don’t bother me in the least. I am, however, opposed to religions that try to evangelize people, control the government, and force people to live according to their peculiar interpretations of a religious text. Technically, then, I am anti-Evangelical, anti-IFB, anti-Mormon, anti-Jehovah’s Witnesses, and anti- other fundamentalist religions. Such religions are psychologically harmful and can cause physical harm, especially to women and children. Fundamentalism is the problem.
Sadly, some hardcore antitheists consider me a fake atheist or a closeted Christian. If I don’t hate who and what they hate, I am a fraud or a fake. They are, in my opinion, fundamentalist atheists, every bit as repugnant as hardcore Independent Baptist preachers.
How do you self-describe yourself? Please share your thoughts in the comment section.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
What follows is my response to another email from Independent Fundamentalist Evangelist Arv Edgeworth
Mr. Gerencser,
So nice to hear from you. I don’t read your blog so I won’t be reading your replies to my emails to Carolyn. I read your “Why” section, and all I saw was poor logic on your account, so I have no desire to read any further.
That’s up to you. Remember, you came to this site and then emailed me.
You claim I use poor logic, yet you provide no evidence for your claim. What laws of logic have I violated?
Bruce, you blame God and the “Church” for you neglecting your family. I have known several pastors who built strong ministries, and they had strong family ties, and I saw no evidence they neglected their families in any way. I’m sorry you neglected yours. But that is on YOU, not God.
I don’t blame “God.” He is a myth, so it would be foolish to blame a mythical being for something that happened in my life. I accept full responsibility for the choices I have made throughout my life. Part of accepting responsibility is determining why a certain decision was made. From this perspective, my pastors, professors, and the churches I pastored all played a part in how I neglected my family. I was indoctrinated and conditioned to view the world a certain way. The same goes for how I viewed my calling and the work of the ministry. I can’t be at fault for practicing what I was taught or what was modeled to me by my pastors and peers. I did what I thought was right in the eyes of God. Over time, my thinking changed. How I viewed the ministry in 1976 was very different from the way I viewed it in 1997. Unfortunately, Edgeworth does what many of my critics do: he takes a snapshot of a certain point in my life and applies it to the sum of my life, not allowing for change as I got older and matured.
I was a Creation evangelist for over 20 years, giving over 450 seminars in 27 different states. Sometimes my wife couldn’t go with me because she was our church secretary for 27 years, but she is my best friend, and we are both close to our kids. We will celebrate 60 wonderful years of marriage this week.
Okay? I’m not sure what the point is. We all have a storyline. In my case, I was saved at the age of fifteen and called to preach several weeks later. In the fall of 1976, I enrolled in classes at Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan — an IFB college started in 1954 by Dr. Tom Malone. (Malone, by the way, had an earned doctorate from an accredited state school.) While at Midwestern, I met a beautiful IFB preacher’s daughter. Two years later, we married, and this July we will celebrate forty-seven years of wedded bliss. We are blessed to have six adult children, sixteen grandchildren, and four cats.
My ministerial career of twenty-five years took my partner and me to Evangelical churches (IFB, Southern Baptist, Sovereign Grace Baptist, Christian Union, and Nondenominational) in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. I left the ministry in 2005 and converted from Christianity in 2008. I am now an atheist and a humanist.
You claim you had an intimate relationship with Christ for many years, but now claim He never existed. It can’t be both.
People change their minds. When I was a Christian, I had an intimate relationship with Jesus. I was a sincere follower of Christ. And now I am an atheist. I learned over the years that religious faith is complex; that people, myself included, can hold beliefs that are not true.
I have never said Jesus wasn’t a real person. I am not a mythicist. I think Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic preacher who was executed for his opposition to the Roman government. He was buried in an unknown grave, never to be seen or heard from again. What I reject are the supernatural claims made for Jesus.
You blame God for all bad things in the world, then claim God doesn’t exist. More bad logic?
If God is the sovereign creator of the universe, then, yes, he is responsible for the good and bad that happens in the world. I can make a solid theological argument for this claim; a belief, by the way, I held when I was a pastor.
I can easily defend my past beliefs if challenged. After all, the Bible can be used to prove almost anything.
Like I told Carolyn, you blaming God for everything bad, would be like me seeing a smashed Chevy and no longer believing in General Motors as a great company because they build automobiles that can be smashed by humans. Poor logic.
If God is in control of all things, then, yes, God is responsible for everything, including automobiles.
If Edgeworth wants to discuss or debate this issue, I am game.
You might want to reconsider being an atheist though, if God doesn’t exist then you can’t blame Him for all your failures and the failures of other people. Then the responsibility for you neglecting your family falls only on you. If God doesn’t exist, then you can’t blame Him for creating a world where bad things can happen.
As I have repeatedly stated, I accept responsibility for every decision I have ever made. I have been honest and open about the churches I pastored, detailing both my successes and failures. That said, I refuse to accept blame for things that were not my fault or over which I had no control.
As an atheist and a humanist, I accept and understand that bad things can and do happen, not only to me but to other people. I have had a rough road in life. Life is what it is. All I know to do is to learn from past experiences. I wouldn’t wish my childhood on anyone. Sure, I survived, but not without a hell of a lot of deep wounds and scars. As a 68-year-old man, most of my struggles these days are health-related. I have gastroparesis and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency — both incurable — osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, and degenerative spine disease (that has left me with widespread disc damage in my neck and spine). In August, I had major surgery on my spine. Virtually every moment of my waking hours is dominated by debilitating pain and illness. I should note, before a Christian reader suggests that my health problems are God’s judgment for my unbelief, I started having health problems years before I deconverted. Countless prayers were uttered asking for deliverance or relief, without success.
I won’t be reading your blog that I am sure will be filled with more bad logic, but if you wish to communicate via emails that would be fine. I hope you get things straightened out in your mind so you can put things in proper perspective.
As far as getting straightened out, I am as “straight” as I can be. One hundred percent heterosexual. 🙂
When Edgeworth says “proper perspective” he means seeing things as he does, believing as he does. Remember, certainty breeds arrogance, and there’s nothing more arrogant than expecting and demanding that others believe as you do. That said, I am more than happy to embrace Edgeworth’s beliefs, provided he can give me empirical evidence for his claims. It’s really that simple. I operate on evidence. My goal is to believe as many true things as possible. That’s why I deconverted. The central claims of Christianity no longer made any sense to me. I expand my thinking on this subject in the post titled The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.
We humans mess up sometimes. Blaming a God Who you say doesn’t exist isn’t the answer. Just curious, will you be worshiping the Easter Bunny next Sunday?
I have sufficiently addressed your false claim above. Again, let me be clear, I give blame and credit to whom blame and credit are due. I do, however, worship my wife. Now, there’s a God worthy of worship. 🙂
Unlike Edgeworth, I do not worship inanimate or mythical beings.
Bruce, what you BELIEVE isn’t the REALITY of the way things ACTUALLY are. I know it makes things easier for you in the make-believe world you have built for yourself, which removes a lot of the responsibility for yourself.
Says who? What evidence do you have for this claim other than that you have convinced yourself that your worship and fealty to a mythical being is “reality.” It’s not. I am a materialist. Since God is an immaterial being and you cannot provide empirical evidence for his existence, “God” is not a part of reality (outside of having to live and interact with people who believe God exists and is personally involved in their lives).
Life is actually much harder for humanists. As a Christian, every belief and action was parsed through the teachings of the Bible. What the Bible said was all that mattered. THUS SAITH THE LORD! As a humanist, I have to develop carefully the moral and ethical framework by which I live my life. There are no humanist Ten Commandments, no humanist standard.
If God does exist, you messed up. But guess what, if God doesn’t exist, you still messed up and are still messing up. But now you are also responsible for all the people you are misleading. If you cared about others, instead of just yourself, you would want them to know the REAL TRUTH. Your whole blog or website is based on bad logic and delusion, and is leading people away from God instead of toward Him.
In what way am I “misleading” people? All I know to do is share my story. I don’t try to convert people to atheism. That said, scores of people have told me that I played a part in their deconversion. I don’t preach at people. I don’t comment on Christian websites. Seventeen years ago, I started blogging. My goal then is the same today: to honestly and openly share my story, answer questions people might have about Evangelical Christianity, and to help and encourage people who have deconverted.
If this blog is based on bad logic and delusion, I suggest Edgeworth either deconstruct my story and posts on his website or start a blog to do the same. He makes all sorts of claims about me, yet provides no evidence to support his contentions.
I wish you well. If you were ever IN the body of Christ, you can never be OUT of the body of Christ, that much is sure. You will be in HEAVEN someday, but think of all those who may not be because of your DELUSION, and anger, which should be directed mostly at yourself, not God.
Answered, answered, answered.
If there is a God, according to the IFB gospel, I will go to Heaven when I die. Awesome, right? Thousands of people who read this blog will someday be in Heaven, too. What a party we will have; millions of Atheist Christians praising logic, reason, skepticism, and common sense for their glorious deliverance from the bondage of Evangelical Christianity, complete with rock music, Holy Ghost marijuana, and a free grace bar. And what will Jesus do? He will probably join us. 🙂
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
