Several years ago, my wife’s cousin, and an Evangelical pastor in Newark, Ohio, posted the following on Facebook:
Do not be fooled! Class warfare, rioting, racism, defunding police, expansive government programs…these are the building blocks to socialism. These are reasons so many flee to America!!
I have known Polly’s cousin for over forty-four years. He was the ring-bearer in our wedding in 1978. Andy is an affable guy, the only preacher in Polly’s family that I get along with. We have had numerous conversations over the years. Never an angry word, though we have disagreed many, many times.
After reading Andy’s anti-socialism comment, I decided to respond, hoping that I could educate him about socialism, specifically democratic socialism. I suspect that I am the only atheist socialist Andy knows. The conversation quickly deteriorated when a friend of Andy’s named Tim — an Evangelical know-it-all, if there ever was one — decided to hijack the discussion and attack my atheism. He quickly started talking about evolution and morality, and even went so far as to tell me that I was an agnostic, not an atheist.
Long-time readers likely know what I told this man: fuck off! In fact, I told him to fuck off twice. The discussion was about socialism, but he wanted to make it about me and my atheism. I refused to play, and here’s his final comment to me (paragraphs added for readability. Grammar and spelling as written).
Last comment, then tomorrow when i get up I will just block you; since you do not want to debate.
you are angry because evangelicals make truth claims. yet you are making truth claims also. there is a saying. everyone has a right to their opinion, but only those who are correct have a right for their opinion to be true.
socalism is the start of communism and nazism. socalism has always harmed the poor and middle class, and makes politicians rich royal leaders. socalism always worships government, as everyone has to worship something. you know it. thus why you attack me, for pointing out truth.
Last, there is truth. there is a creator. there is a God, and that God is the one true God of the Bible. I pray that you meet him one day, before you die; as that will be too late. if you truly seek truth there are hundreads of books taht not only show the truth of what I am saying, but gives all the evidence inside and outside of the Bible for what I am saying. the best, for someone that truthly seeks truth, is evidence that demands a verdict.
I pray one day you seek the truth and realize that it is not what you claim it to be.
Just another day in the alternate universe called Evangelicalism. That this man thinks Josh McDowell’s book, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, is the best book for someone like me shows that he doesn’t really know much about agnosticism and atheism, nor does he know anything about my background. McDowell’s arguments have been debunked numerous times. Had I thought this man had a rational, skeptical bone in his body, I might have engaged him, but since he doesn’t, I chose not to cast my candy bars before pigs.
The only thing that offended me was his claim that I am an agnostic, not an atheist. He refused to let me self-identify as an atheist. In his mind, agnostic and atheist are two different things. Had he been open to thoughtful, rational discussion, I would have educated him about why many professed atheists are agnostics and atheists. I have talked about this issue numerous times on this site. Some strong atheists disagree with me on the matter, but claiming to be an agnostic and an atheist is certainly within the orthodox pale of the most holy atheist religion. Yet, this knucklehead thinks atheism is a religion. Whatcha gonna do when faced with someone who thinks he knows everything, yet knows very little? At this point in my quickly fading life, “fuck you” seems to be an appropriate response.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Some of you engage young earth creationists in discussions and debates about the beginning of the universe and evolution. A frequent argument used by Evangelical apologists is “Were you there?” How dare we say the universe is 13.7 billion years old? How dare we say the earth wasn’t created in six twenty-four-hour days, 6,027 years ago? How dare we challenge mythical stories such as Noah’s Flood, the Tower of Babel, and Israel’s migration from Egypt to Canaan? How dare we question the supernatural claims Christians make for Jesus? Were we there? Of course not, and since we weren’t there, our challenges have no merit or relevance. Of course, Evangelicals weren’t there either. The difference is that Evangelicals appeal to faith, and unbelievers appeal to science, history, reason, and common sense. Unbelievers demand objective evidence, whereas Evangelicals appeal to subjective faith. For Evangelicals, the final answer is always “The Bible says.”
The “Were you there?” argument, is no argument at all. None of us was there. All we can do is read, study, investigate, and come to logical, rational conclusions. Faith bypasses all these things, appealing to a singular claim, “The Bible says” or “God says.” This may have worked in the prescientific age, but not today. Evangelical apologists say their peculiar deity created the universe a few thousand years ago. This is a positive claim, one that runs contrary to virtually everything science tells us about the universe. If Evangelicals want unbelievers to embrace their beliefs, they are going to have to do more than cough up proof texts or appeal to slick theological/philosophical arguments. Solid, empirical evidence is what is required, and so far, Evangelicals have failed to deliver.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, is upset at me, so much so that he has challenged me to a street fight. 🤣
Thiessen has written five posts about me in the past week. Think of all the subjects he could write on, yet he is obsessed with what I say on this blog, becoming more hysterical with every post he writes. I fear he is going to have a stroke or hire a Christian hitman to kill me if he doesn’t change the channel.
I can’t stop him from raging against Bruce Almighty. I can either ignore — which I typically do — or rebut his nonsense. I’m in a rebut mood, so Thiessen can expect me to respond to him, if warranted. The following excerpt from his blog post, There is One Statement, requires no response. Thoughtful readers will see his post for what it is:
In BG’s [Bruce Gerencser’s] response to our Prove It article we [I] will address [what, exactly?]. It falls right in line with what we [I] were [was] saying in that article:
[Who’s keeping anyone from believing anything? No, what…is afraid of is people learning that he is peddling a lie.]
All we [I] can say in response is PROVE THE CHRISTIAN FAITH IS A LIE. He has failed to do so and has failed to produce any real, credible, and verifiable evidence supporting his assertions and claims.
Put up or shut up BG [Big Gonads]. Your time of reckoning has come. [I am laughing hysterically as I read this.] You have spouted off for 11 years, give or take a year [seventeen years], now it is time to pay the piper and put your ‘evidence’ on the table to be examined by those who are experts in this field. [This doesn’t apply to Thiessen because he’s not an expert on anything other than personal attacks and fallacies.]
Or are you too chicken to show your readers that you can’t do it? [I’m still laughing.] Your word is not enough so let’s see what you have that shows the Bible to be in error and that Christ does not exist. [Christ does exist, Derrick. I have never said otherwise. He lived, he died, and is buried in an unknown grave.] Follow the guidelines we [I] posted in our [my] Prove It article. [Dammit, Derrick, quit asking me to expose myself to you. Disgusting, Dude.]
We [I] and the rest of the world are waiting. [The only person waiting is Thiessen. The 5,000 posts I have written on this site speak for themselves.]
{Oh and by the way, while spelling errors may exist, Grammarly and us [I] do not always catch them so give it a rest already}. [Thiessen has repeatedly claimed that Ben Berwick and I have edited his posts, comments, and emails. This, of course, is untrue. This is why I always say that any quotes from Thiessen’s site are his alone, complete with bad grammar, spelling, and punctuation. I use Grammarly too. It is a good tool, but I still need an editor to proof my writing.]
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, is on a downhill roll lately, complaining, bitching, whining, and raging about me and my British friend Ben Berwick. Today, Thiessen wrote a post titled, Christians Do Not Have to Provide Proof, directly contradicting what the Bible says in 1 Peter 3:15: But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect.
What follows is my response to Thiessen’s post. All spelling, grammar, punctuation, and irrationality in the original.
The unbelieving world is always demanding that Christians prove their faith is true.
I have NEVER asked a Christian to “prove their faith is true.” Faith, by its very nature, is beyond investigation. However, the claims Christians make can and must be investigated to see if extant evidence justifies, verifies, and bolsters their claims. If Thiessen wants atheists to buy what he is selling, he must provide verifiable evidence for his claims. So far, he refuses to do so, choosing to dismiss, ridicule, and call names instead. According to the Bible, Thiessen’s behavior is inconsistent with the Christian faith.
Yet, that is an arrogant demand as the unbeliever sits in the judgment seat and then tells Christians what is or isn’t proof.
Logic, science, and common sense determine what is and isn’t evidence for Christian claims. (I wish Thiessen would quit using the word proof. Proof is a mathematical term.)
The Christian can never win when this tilted playing field is used. Christian scientists have spent decades providing scientific proof, Christian archaeologists and astronomers have done the same, and so have many other researchers.
If Christian scientists have provided persuasive evidence for Thiessen’s claims, I haven’t seen it. If said evidence is what Thiessen says it is, why don’t Evangelical scientists show their work by publishing in reputable journals? Thiessen, a Bible literalist, believes the universe was created in six literal twenty-four-hour days, 6,027 years ago. Everything science tells us about the universe and our biological world says these claims are false. Thiessen demands “proof” from atheists, yet fails to offer persuasive evidence for his “scientific” claims apart from saying, “The Bible says.” According to him, the Bible — as interpreted by him — is inerrant and infallible, the ultimate authority and final answer to every question. This position, of course, is absurd. Sadly, Thiessen wants to argue science claims by appealing to faith. This may work with like-minded believers who accept his presuppositions, but will get him laughed out of the room by scientists and skeptics.
For the most part, the unbeliever just sits there, denies the evidence, and continues on their merry yet sin-loving way. The Christian has to learn that we do not dance to the unbeliever’s tune. What they demand doesn’t matter to us.
Thiessen’s peccadilloes are well known. A man who abandoned his family (including a child) and fled the United States to avoid paying child support, is in no position to lecture anyone on morality.
Of course what unbelievers “demand” matters to Thiessen. He has spent the past three years blogging about unbelievers, namely Bruce Gerencser and Ben Berwick. He has written hundreds of posts that directly or indirectly mention us. Yet, instead of engaging intellectually and rationally, Thiessen attacks our character or quotes Bible verses.
Once again, I challenge Thiessen to a public debate on YouTube. Let’s settle these issues once and for all, Derrick.
What matters is what God wants us to do in a given interaction with unbelievers. he knows their hearts and what will or won’t work with the individuals of that people group, so there is no sense jumping to meet the demands of the unbeliever.
Thiessen justifies his boorish behavior and lack of persuasive arguments by saying he’s just “doing what God wants him to do.” How can Thiessen possibly know what God wants him to do? How does he know the voices in his head are “God”?
I’m pleased that Derrick admits my lack of faith is God’s fault; that if God wants to save me, he will provide Evangelical apologists with the requisite tools necessary to bring me to saving faith. I’m dead in trespasses and sin, unable to save myself. My eternal destiny depends on God and Christians. So, I am waiting for God and his representatives on earth to come through. Until then, how about them Cowboys?
We listen to what God wants us to do and present the gospel meeting that instruction. If God does not want us to provide evidence, then we do not. Christians are under no obligation to provide physical evidence to unbelievers.
Evidently, Thiessen’s Bible is missing 1 Peter 3:15: But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect.
This verse says: Derrick, always be ready to make a defense of your beliefs to Bruce Gerencser, Ben Berwick, and other unbelievers. And do it, not with name-calling and personal attacks, but with gentleness and respect.
Is this not, Derrick, exactly what the B-I-B-L-E says?
If the unbeliever does not accept changed lives as evidence, then there is little hope they will accept evidence from 2000 to 4000 years ago. The Silver Scrolls has been around for 50 years approx., showing that the Bible has not changed since the 7th century BC.
OMG, did Thiessen really say that “the Bible hasn’t changed since the seventh century BCE ( BC and AD are no longer used by academics other than Evangelicals)? I challenge Thiessen to provide actual evidence for this claim. Better yet, this would make an awesome debate topic. Of course, Thiessen will NEVER debate me on this subject. He knows, or should know, anyway, that his claim has no evidentiary basis. And I mean NONE. Thiessen’s claim is contrary to what Evangelical and secular scholars alike tell us about the nature and history of the sixty-six books of the Protestant Christian Bible and its underlying Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic texts.
Yet, few people accept that as evidence that the Bible is true and not edited. So what do we do with the evidence Christian researchers discover??
Simple. Provide empirical evidence that the Bible is inerrant/infallible (true) and has NEVER been edited. Of course, no such evidence exists. Instead, we know that the Bible is errant and fallible, and has been edited countless times. This is a fact, not a claim, as the relevant academic literature shows. Again, I point to Dr. Bart Ehrman’s bestselling books on the history and nature of the Bible (and I can give Thiessen a list of numerous other Bible scholars and theologians who agree with Ehrman).
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We need to keep the unbelievers honest as they will say anything to hide from the truth. The unbeliever does not have any hidden smoking gun physical evidence proving the Bible false. If you read BG’s response to yesterday’s post, you would have seen that he presents nothing to support his denials.
Sigh. I’m not going to write an academic paper every time a Thiessen gets his pink Victoria’s Secret panties with the days of the week on them in a knot over something I wrote about the Bible. I have covered these issues numerous times over the past seventeen years. Further, I have publicized the work of scholars such as Ehrman, Dr. Dan McClellan, Dr. Kip Davis, Dr. Joshua Bowen, and others — all of whom sport actual PhDs, unlike Thiessen’s unaccredited, diploma mill “doctorate.” I have also publicized debates featuring Matt Dillahunty and Alex O’Connor.
Why doesn’t Thiessen ever respond to their work, other than calling them names, belittling them, and asserting, without evidence, that they are wrong? Why are they wrong? They are unbelievers, and, according to Thiessen, unbelievers don’t know anything. Only Christians know the “truth.” (I assume Thiessen only sees and uses Christian doctors, lawyers, dentists, optometrists, auto mechanics, and contractors.)
That is because they have no physical evidence to prove their denials are correct. They have nothing thus they decide to be arrogant and demand Christians to prove their faith is true. Unbelievers are not in charge of what is or isn’t evidence.
Actually, logic, reason, and science determine what is and isn’t evidence. It’s absurd to appeal to an ancient religious text as the foundation and rules for what is evidence. Thiessen has made up his own rules of discourse and intellectual pursuit, demanding everyone play by his rules. He is akin to someone wanting to play poker with the rules for Go Fish. That ain’t going to work.
They would not know the evidence if it hit them in the face.
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Sure we would, but Thiessen rejects academic consensus, choosing instead to appeal to only Evangelical scholars or those who hold positions roundly dismissedby most Bible scholars, archeologists, and other experts in their relevant fields. It is up to him to empirically show why academic consensus is wrong.
And I am not saying academic consensus is always right. However, since neither Thiessen nor I are scholars, accepting consensus scholarship on any given issue is generally a good idea. As a pastor, I believed that if I came up with an interpretation contrary to academic consensus, I was likely wrong. Thiessen, on the other hand, thinks just because he can read the Bible in English that he is right.
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Do not cast pearls before swine and have the evidence trampled under their feet. If you do, you may lose what God has provided for you to remain strong in him. You never have to present physical evidence when sharing the gospel with unbelievers.
Again, 1 Peter 3:15 says: But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect.
Evidently, Thiessen doesn’t believe and practice the whole Bible —only the verses that suit him or justify his beliefs.
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The men recorded having their lives changed including one who used the Bible to roll his cigarettes and became a Christian when he got to the Gospel of John. Another example is the man who wrote the movie Ben Hur, another was an agnostic doctor, and more.
If the unbeliever cannot accept the fact that Christ changed lives, then it is doubtful they will accept other evidence. Dead men do not change lives, especially millions of them around the world throughout history.
Thiessen refuses to accept the fact that subjective experiences and personal testimonies prove nothing.
Seven million Americans are Mormons. To Derrick, I ask, are their subjective experiences and personal testimonies true? How about those of Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, Charismatics, and other religious groups? I know how Thiessen will answer, but let’s see if he will actually expose the absurdity of his claim.
We are ignoring BG’s [Bruce Gerencser’s] response because it is unhinged, irrational, illogical, and unworthy of further comment. He gave up his faith and little can be done for him. Since it is not his faith anymore, he needs to shut up and mind his own business.
He and other atheists and people who left the faith are in no position to demand anything.
I don’t demand anything from Evangelicals (the only true Christians in Thiessen’s book) other than if they make claims and demand I accept them, I want to see evidence for their claims. If you say a virgin-born God-man, who later was executed and resurrected from dead, healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, turned tap water into wine, walked on water, walked through walls, teleported from one place to another, and worked so many miracles that all the books in the world, if they were written down, could not contain them, I’m going to want evidence for your claims; the same evidence Thiessen asks Muslims, Mormons, and other non-Evangelicals to provide for their claims. The Bible is not evidence, it is a book of claims. If Thiessen wants unbelievers to accept his Bible claims, he must provide evidence that supports his claims. It’s not enough to say “the Bible says.”
Derrick, I ain’t going away. No matter how many times you call me names, attack my character, or belittle my story, I plan to keep writing until I can physically no longer do so. That could happen soon — I hope not — but until it does, I will continue to share my story and help people who have doubts and questions about Christianity or who have left the faith. Rage against me all you want, Derrick, but I ain’t going away. I suggest you buy some Preparation H for what ails you.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, recently blew a gasket over my post Never Underestimate the Power of Jesus. Evidently, this post irritated the Hey-Zeus right out of him; so much so that he wanted to swear at me. Instead, he told me to “shut my hole.” Which hole, Derrick, which hole? 🤣
Here’s what Thiessen had to say. All spelling, grammar, punctuation, and irrationality in the original. Comments in brackets are mine:
We [I] get tired of those people who choose not to believe, refuse to believe,, or have walked away from the Christian faith asserting that Jesus is not real. [I’ve never said that Jesus wasn’t a real person. Thiessen knows this, yet he continues to say otherwise.] If you do not want to believe, then shut your holes. [Which hole, Derrick?] It is not your faith and you have no business sticking your nose into the beliefs and reality of Christianity. [Sure, I do. It’s called public discourse. If it’s wrong for me to write about Christianity, it’s wrong for fake Dr. Tee to write about atheism.]
You have no mandate to ‘expose Christianity’ because everything about the Christian faith and God is already exposed and has been known for 2000 years. [The Canon wasn’t even settled for three centuries. Christianity has always been an evolving religion. Thiessen’s rigid Fundamentalism drives him to irrationally think he believes the exact same things the Apostle Paul did.] You have the freedom to choose, now let those that have chosen to believe the Bible an din Christ enjoy their faith without your unverifiable, unprovable, and unsubstantiated subjective claims. [Who’s keeping anyone from believing anything? No, what Thiessen is afraid of is people learning that he is peddling a lie.]
What put us in this less than tactful mood [or this is why I’m being an asshole] is a post by BG [Bruce Gerencser] who makes those same claims yet refuses to produce one shred of credible, verifiable, provable physical evidence.
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Prove that Jesus did not rise from the dead. Just saying that people die and stay dead is not proof or evidence. [Sure, it is. Everyone dies, Jesus included.] It is an assertion that has no basis in reality. [Reality shows everyone dies. No need to make an assertion.] Prove the resurrection is false using science on Jesus’s body, grave, and grave clothes, and not on anyone else. [Please provide the body of Jesus, along with his grave clothes and the location of his grave, and we will do so. Of course, Thiessen can provide none of these things. His evidence for the resurrection of Jesus from the dead? The Bible says so. Color me unimpressed.]
However, we know that Jesus rose from the dead because of the millions of changed lives that have taken place since his resurrection. You do not get those change dives from believing in a dead person who did not rise. [The size of a religion proves nothing. Catholicism, Islam, and Buddhism have numbers much larger than Thiessen’s peculiar brand of Christianity. Using Thiessen’s logic, this means these religions are true.]
We have the evidence for his resurrection in those millions of lives, what does BG [Bruce Gerencser] or other atheists have? They need to present their own evidence that Jesus did not change those lives and not simply create some fanciful explanation not supported by real physical evidence. [Thiessen is living proof that Christ does not change lives. So are others just like him who despise and demean anyone who believes differently from them.]
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We [I] call BG [Bruce Gerencser] to provide credible, verifiable, and real physical evidence that the accounts talking about Jesus are myths. Just because myths and legends exist, does it mean that those biblical accounts are myths. [The Bible is a book of claims. Until the Thiessens of the world provide empirical evidence for these claims, that all they are — claims.]
BG [Bruce Gerencser] and other atheists cannot just point to secular myths and claim that because these myths exist, the biblical accounts are myths. [I have never done this.] 3Nor can they simply point to the fact science cannot prove those accounts.
Science is not designed to study the supernatural and is disqualified from use. [No one suggested otherwise.] Plus, science cannot determine what really took place in the past because it cannot see into the past to see what did take place. [Thiessen can’t see back to the beginning of time, yet he feels qualified to do so anyway. He wants one set of rules for atheists, and another for himself.]
Come up with something else. [Okay, I think the designated hitter rule should be banned.] The fact that millions of people are believing the same accounts without alterations is proof that the biblical accounts are not myths. Do millions and millions of people believe that Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and other superheroes exist?
They follow the comics but does their belief bring those imaginary characters to life? Do those imaginary characters get involved with real human lives and change them forever while granting them special gifts and paradise to live in when they die? [Again, these are claims for which Thiessen provides no evidence other than “The Bible says so.”
Not one superhero has offered eternal life to anyone who believes they exist.[Fine, I Bruce Almighty offer eternal life to everyone who sends me $1.] Plus, not one superhero has changed one life and rescued humans from sin. However, Jesus has which is why millions of people believe in him. [Why didn’t he change your life, Derrick? Your tree is barren.]
Plus, Jesus does not need anyone to believe in him to exist. He exists even if no one wrote about him. But BG [Bruce Gerencser] and other atheists need to provide the proof that the biblical accounts are myths first. [This is presuppositionalism at its worst. No argument can pierce the ignorance.]
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This is head-in-the-sand thinking which does not provide any evidence to their validity. All it does is show the lack of rational and logical thought on the part of BG [Bruce Gerencser] and other atheists. Bring [where should I deliver it?] verifiable and credible physical evidence that there is no evidence supporting the Bible, its instruction, and its historical foundation.
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BG [Bruce Gerencser] needs to prove that Jesus was not there during those times [when my in-laws suffered tragedy.]. just because the results were not what BG [Bruce Gerencser] wanted to see does not mean Jesus was not there. [Ah yes, a Jesus who is “there” yet is invisible.] He needs to bring credible, verifiable, and real physical evidence proving Jesus abandoned them and other Christians.
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BG [Big Gonads] needs to prove that Jesus is fraudulent. Appealing to other unbelievers is not evidence nor is it proof. Ehrman does not have the truth nor does any unbeliever so what good would reading their books do? Nothing.
BG [Ball Grabber] needs to prove with credible, verifiable physical evidence that Erhman has the truth and Jesus is a fraud. Too many people who have experienced Jesus know better. If he does not have the proof, then his claims are false.
The atheist and other unbelievers have made extraordinary claims about Jesus, God, the Bible, and Christianity thus the onus is on them to provide credible, verifiable, and real physical evidence to show they are correct.
if they do not, then they need to shut up and mind their own business.
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BG [Bruce Gerencser] and MM [Ben Berwick] whine and complain about our using those initials and not ‘referencing’ their websites. [Yes, we ask you to follow Internet guidelines for using the material of others. Instead, you steal our content and refuse to properly link to our sites. Seventeen years, Derrick, and you are the only blogger who behaves this way towards me.] But both people have acted in a horrendous manner towards us[me] that they [I] lost our [my] respect for them and their decisions. [And I don’t care. What I wish you would do is move on to someone else to harass and molest. Three years, Derrick, and you are still blogging about me several times a week. I offered to send you a nude picture of me if that would put an end to your unhealthy obsession with me. It’s icky, Dude. I’m not gay. Please stop.]
The above-quoted beliefs of one atheist [Bruce Gerencser[ just make it harder to respect them and their wishes. If they do not like how we [I] do things on OUR [MY] website, they can shut up. [The post Thiessen is upset about has nothing to do with him.] Just like they need to shut up about how bad Christianity and Christians are. [If Thiessen wants atheists to stop pointing out bad Christian behavior, I suggest believers try harder. You know, stop being Assholes for Jesus. I predict Thiessen will write a post defending child molester Robert Morris. Thiessen has yet to meet a child molester he couldn’t defend.]
They have no proof to support their denials and positions so they need to talk about other things, not Christianity. [Okay, let’s talk about penis size.] The last words [You will never say another word?] are to them BRING your verifiable, credible, and real physical evidence, or never say another word about Christianity again. [Sure Derrick, sure.🤣]
Often, atheists and agnostics grossly underestimate the power of Jesus. I am sure that some of you are already thinking or saying out loud, Bruce, are you nuts? Have you renounced atheism and become a follower of Jesus again? We don’t underestimate the power of Jesus because he doesn’t exist. End of story!
But he does exist, and I think many atheists and agnostics forget this. In our desire to rid the world of the damaging effects of religion, we often forget that Jesus is alive and well.
Now, the Jesus who is alive and well is not an actual, physical living human being, and neither is he an actual, physical God or Son of God. The Jesus who was born in Bethlehem two thousand years ago is dead. The Jesus who, for thirty-three years, walked the roads of Palestine, is dead. The Jesus spoken of in the Bible is dead. We know that dead people do not come back from the grave. We know that once a person is dead, he stays dead. Jesus is dead, and there is no chance that he is coming back from the grave.
But, Jesus is alive and well in the myths and beliefs of millions and millions of Christians. In the mythical Jesus, people find comfort, meaning, and hope. In the mythical Jesus, people find what they think is lacking in their lives, and quite frankly atheists and agnostics don’t have much to offer in comparison to what Jesus can offer a person.
But, Bruce, believing in Jesus is irrational. Believing in Jesus is as rational as believing in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. Totally correct, but this doesn’t matter.
When suffering and loss come our way, our rationality often doesn’t do us much good. When our lives are in a heap of ashes, knowing the evidence for God not existing does nothing to comfort us. When we are struggling to keep from drowning, the books written by Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris, provide no help. All our rational, well-thought-out arguments do little for us when we are at those moments in life where the most precious thing to us is our next breath.
In these times, we look for comfort and hope. We look to those who love us and who are willing to do anything for us. In these times, our intellectual prowess does not matter. What we desperately want and need is a hand to hold on to, someone who will tell us it is going to be all right.
But, Bruce, shit happens and we are all going to die in the end. Atheists and agnostics don’t need sentimentality. Surely, we can face what comes our way with a rugged resolve, knowing we are right. Perhaps.
But is knowing we are right the most important thing? Is drawing our last breath knowing we were right about religion, God, Jesus, and the Bible really the grand objective?
Forget for a moment what you know about the Bible. Forget what you know about its teachings. If you were once a Christian, forget your experience in the church. Think for a moment about the essence of the Christian religion. What is the one thing that matters more than anything else? What is the one thing that allows millions of people to live in a state of cognitive dissonance? What is the one thing that allows Christians to shut off all the criticisms of Christianity and allows them to continue believing?
One word . . . Jesus.
The mythical Jesus, the Jesus of legend, the Jesus that is preached in countless Christian churches all over the world, this Jesus is the one thing that matters above all else.
Why is this? What is it about this Jesus for whom millions of people will abandon rational thinking? There is no evidence for what the Bible teaches on most anything. Few of the events in the Bible have any historical foundation. Why does Jesus have such power over people?
Jesus offers salvation. Jesus offers friendship, love, and compassion. Countless drug addicts and alcoholics have abandoned their addictions because of Jesus. Gang members have forsaken their violent ways, and thieves have turned to gainful means of employment, all because of Jesus. Only the most hardheaded and blind among atheists and agnostics would deny the fact that, for millions of people, Jesus makes a qualitative difference in their lives.
In Jesus, millions of people find meaning, purpose, and direction. In Jesus, they find the necessary strength to suffer and die. This Jesus promised never to leave them or forsake them, and no matter how hard we try to show that Jesus is AWOL in the lives of Christians, they still believe he is that friend who sticks closer than a brother.
I am sure there is some psychological or neurological explanation for why this is so, but such explanations have little value. People believe what they believe, and that is all that matters.
My wife’s parents were almost 85 years old when they died. When they died, I mourned their deaths. I loved them dearly. I grieved over the loss of two people I knew most of my adult life. Good people. Loving people. Caring people. And yes, devout Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) Christians.
They believed that Jesus was with them through thick and thin. Jesus was their faithful guide. According to them, Jesus worked countless miracles for them. To them, Jesus was as much a part of their lives as the air they breathe.
I could point out to them all the times that Jesus wasn’t there for them. Where was Jesus when they miscarried? Where was Jesus when their daughter was killed in a motorcycle accident? Their lives were filled with countless examples of Jesus leaving them for dead along the side of the road. He seemed to always be around when they needed a hundred dollars, but nowhere to be found when faced with job loss, economic troubles, or sickness. Yet, they still steadfastly believed.
Was it my place to expose their fraudulent Jesus? Was it my place to point out all the times when their friend Jesus was no friend? Perhaps I should have bought them Bart Ehrman’s books for Christmas so they could know the truth about the Bible and Jesus. But why would I want to do this? Would their lives have been better without Jesus?
I can’t think of any way their lives would have been better without their mythical best friend. Their whole existence was invested in him, and they trusted Jesus to be there when they were dying, to carry them home to their reward in Heaven.
None of this is true, BUT it doesn’t matter.
All that matters is what Jesus meant to them, and what value he added to their lives. If this Jesus gave their lives meaning, purpose, and direction, I have no reason to disabuse them of their beliefs. If this Jesus gave them peace and comfort . . . who was I to take that away from them?
Sometimes, we atheists and agnostics, in our zeal to rid the world of the evil of Christian Fundamentalism, forget that most Christians are not theocrats trying to take over America. They have sincerely held beliefs and, for them, Jesus adds value to their lives. Yes, we must battle Christian Fundamentalists who want to turn the United States into a Christian theocracy. Yes, we must battle attempts to teach creationism as science in public schools. Yes, we must battle attempts to codify Christian morals and ethics as the law of the land. We must battle all attempts to lessen the individual freedom we have to believe or not believe. But, beyond these things, it is not our place to rid the world of beliefs we think are silly or anti-intellectual.
We must remember, those of us who are writers, that the Evangelical Christians who come to our blogs to debate, evangelize, and attack are not typical believers. Zealots and apologists deserve all that we give them, and I have little tolerance for such people. But . . . I must never forget that most Christians are not Bible thumpers. Most Christians are like my wife’s parents — people who love Jesus and want to live a good life.
All of us want a life that has meaning and purpose. We want to be loved, and we want to know our lives matter. In the end, we all die, and we will soon be forgotten by all but those who loved us. Let’s be careful in our zeal to rid the world of all the evils associated with religion, that we don’t lose those we love, and that we don’t trade being “right” for those who will be there for us when we draw our last breath.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Is it ever reasonable for non-believers to comment on Christian blog sites? I know Bruce compares it with turning up at a church service and arguing with the preacher, and a recent comment on Debunking Christianity described it as ‘bad manners’. But are there circumstances where it’s reasonable to do it?
Can I suggest a couple of scenarios where it might be? I should declare first that I rarely comment on Christian sites – I have a life to live, after all – and have, I’d guess, done so no more than a dozen times in the past three or four years. This hasn’t been to promote atheism, but to counter the ignorance and intolerance of some Evangelical sites.
So here are my thoughts on when it’s okay to stray over to the dark side and engage with its denizens. First, is when True Believers arrive on my site and tell me, usually in no uncertain terms, where I’m wrong. This is often for the same few reasons that are directed at Bruce: I don’t know the Bible well enough; I misinterpret it; I don’t know Jesus the way they do; I was never really a Christian. Having batted these ad hominems around for a while, some commenters decide there’s nothing for it but to recommend posts of their own. They provide links to their blogs that will set me and my reader straight. Now and then (but not always) I’ll take a look at and, if appropriate, comment on what they’ve written. After all, they have specifically invited me round to their place; I haven’t gate-crashed, they wanted me to visit so they could enlighten me. I have, as a result, the right to reply, to let them know they haven’t. I don’t, as a rule, argue theology or push any particular ideology, but I have been moved to point out that the Bible is open to multiple interpretations and theirs (or, I suspect, their minister’s) involves a considerable degree of cherry-picking to make it compatible with their orthodoxy. Of course, they have the right, and the means, not to publish my comment if it upsets them too much.
Second, Facebook’s algorithm – and that of other social media sites presumably — is fond of finding extreme Christian sites to add my much-neglected page. Invariably I delete these and tell the algorithm I want to see fewer posts of this sort. It complies for a short while before it decides I really do need to know that Jesus is my friend or that I’m headed straight to hell. (Honestly, you write a few articles that mention Jesus and God and the entire Internet thinks you want to become an Evangelical.) Now and then, and rather more frequently than I’d prefer, the nuttier sites that pop up announce that atheists have no basis for morality and are shaking their collective fist at God who’s feeling mighty wrathful about it. Alternatively, these sites find the need to headline the scourge of homosexuality, which likewise is bringing the Western world, and more specifically America, to the verge of destruction. Now I happen to be both an atheist and a homosexual (I don’t have any trouble with this word despite its use by some as a slur). I feel that, as sites disparaging either atheists, gays, or both have intruded on my FB page, it is again perfectly appropriate for me to respond, which, every few years, I do. Prejudiced, ill-informed, hateful opinions about me and my kind, be they atheist or gay, need to be challenged. These bloggers’ claims that their anti-atheist, anti-LGBT rhetoric is a ‘ministry’ or a demonstration of love are disingenuous. They are nothing of the sort.
So I suggest to these bloggers that they are wrong. I like, also, to remind them that their Saviour commands them to love their neighbours as themselves and to love and pray for their enemies, to which they invariably reply, ‘even the devil can quote scripture’. I have been known to point out too that Jesus expects them to feed the hungry, help the needy, and care for those less fortunate and that sitting at a computer for hours at a time, trashing non-believers and ‘sodomites’ (I do object to that one) isn’t what he had in mind.
Am I wasting my time? Almost certainly, but I can’t stand by as ‘loving’ Christians judge me, and others like me, as fit only for hell – and sometimes for more worrying, tangible fates in the real world.
Commenting on Christian blogs is not always for the faint-hearted, nor is it something I’d advocate. Many don’t even allow comments, so certain are they that they’re right. Occasionally, however – a couple of times a year – I feel compelled to counter the attacks on others.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Over the past seventeen years, various people have taken it upon themselves in emails, blog comments, Facebook comments, tweets, letters to the editor, sermons, and blog posts to emphatically tell me “Bruce, You Are Wrong!!” Be it my liberal politics, the teams I root for, or my humanistic, atheistic beliefs, these beacons of absolute truth are infallibly certain that I am wrong.
Let me confess right away that I have been wrong many, many, many times. I bet you didn’t know that, right? In fact, there’s not a day that goes by that I am not wrong in some moment, circumstance, or detail.
Usually, when someone writes to me to tell me I am wrong, they have a deeper, more sinister meaning for the word “wrong.” For the most part, I write about Christianity — particularly Evangelical Christianity and the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement. Occasionally, I write about politics, education, sports, and other sundry subjects, but my main focus is Christianity and its trappings. I spend a great deal of time telling my story, detailing my journey, as only a good, humble, narcissistic ex-pastor can. This blog, whatever else it may or may not be, is this: “Bruce’s Story, Told by Bruce, According to Bruce, the Best He Can Remember It.”
When I am telling my story and my understanding of the journey I am on, I have little patience with those who tell me I am “wrong.” They dissect my life with the razor knife of their own experiences and beliefs, and determine that I am/was not what I say I am/was. They tell me I was never saved, never a Christian, never a real pastor, and I suspect someday someone will even challenge my circumcision.
These kinds of people want to control my storyline. My Evangelical critics want to set the standard by which my life — the one I lived, the one I am presently living — is judged, and it infuriates them when I won’t let them do so. I refuse to allow my story to be co-opted, controlled, or judged by any other standard than my own experiences. It is my life, and I know what I believed, how I lived, and I am certain I know my life better than anyone who only has this blog to judge me by. My dear wife of forty-six years is my best friend and she knows me pretty well, but she doesn’t know everything about me. Almost everything, but not quite. (Polly is wondering, “What the hell is Bruce keeping from me?)
Foolish is a person, armed with only printed words on a computer screen, who would judge a person’s life without further evidence or knowledge. I certainly want people to enter into my story — in fact, I invite them in. But my readers are just visitors. They only know what I am willing to tell them. If my lover and best friend or my counselor can’t pierce Bruce Almighty’s inner sanctum, don’t think for a moment any outsider can. I’ve been reading the blogs of certain people who have frequented this site for years. I am friends with them on Facebook. I know lots of things about them, but I would never arrogantly say I intimately “know” them. The same can be said for my editor. She’s been editing my writing for almost nine years. We have never met in person, and, likely, we never will. I consider her a dear friend. We text each other almost daily. I know a lot about her past and present life, and her spouse, children, grandchildren, etc. However, I would never presume on our relationship by saying I “know” everything there is to know about her. Yet, countless Evangelical critics think that by reading a few posts on this site they “know” me, and are in a position to render infallible judgment.
Sometimes, charges of being wrong are hurled my way because of something I have written about Christianity, the ministry, the Bible, or some other facet of Western Christianity. They vehemently disagree with my interpretation of a particular Bible verse, or they object to particular word usages, words such as Christian, Evangelical, or Fundamentalist.
What is the foundation of their charges against me? Why, their own beliefs and interpretations, or the beliefs and interpretations of their particular sect. Ultimately, the Bible becomes the focus of these kinds of accusations.
According to my eristical interlocutors, I am wrong because I have misread, misunderstood, misapplied, or distorted what the Bible teaches. How do my critics know this? Because they read, understand, and apply the Bible differently from me. And we all know that every Evangelical is infallible in his or her understanding of an allegedly divine religious text, written by mostly unknown authors thousands of years ago. (That’s sarcasm, by the way.)
I could be wrong. In fact, I am quite certain that some of my interpretations of the Bible are wrong or could be better stated. I have no way of proving whether they are. All I have is my mind and my ability to read and study, and using these skills, I try, to the best of my ability, to discern and understand what a particular text in the Bible says. People are free to differ with me, but why should it be assumed that I am wrong and my critics are right? How do we make such a determination? Dr. Dan McClellan is fond of saying that the Bible has no inherent meaning. And he is right. We give the text meaning, not the other way around.
The Bible has the unique ability to be whatever a person wants it to be. Most people have a bit of Thomas Jefferson in them, scissors in hand, cutting out the things they disagree with or the things that weaken their theological, political, and social beliefs. The short of it is this: if you need to prove something, go to the Bible. You will likely find the answer you are looking for.
I am quite aware of the fact that I read the Bible differently from the Evangelical Christians who think I am wrong. The one-up I have on them is that I used to read the Bible as they do. I understand their hermeneutics and theology, and I am well aware of their interpretations. That said, I have no compulsion or need to read the Bible as Evangelicals or progressive/liberal Christians would read the Good Book. I do not need to make the Bible fit a peculiar systematic theology grid, as Evangelical Christians do. Instead, I try to read the Bible like the average, unenlightened Bruce would read the Bible. I try to transport myself back in time in hopes of getting a historical and cultural perspective on the passage I am reading.
In Genesis 1:26, God says “let us make man in our image.” When I read this passage, I say to myself: this says there is a plurality of Gods. Let US. As I read the Old Testament, it is clear to me that the Israelites were polytheistic and over time became monotheistic (or as oneness-Pentecostals would assert about Trinitarian Christians, they still ARE polytheistic).
Of course, those who think I am wrong say: but the New Testament says______ and they import their Trinitarian theology into the Genesis text. That’s all well and good if you are an Evangelical Christian, but I am not. I am quite free to read the Bible as it is written without forcing myself to put all the pegs in the right holes. The Christian has the burden to make it all fit, not I.
I may be wrong, but it is a leap of faith to assume that because I am wrong, you are right. There is no way to “prove” who is right or who is wrong when it comes to the Bible. Baptists and Campbellites (Church of Christ) often spar over one Greek word, eis, in Acts 2:38. Who is right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know all the arguments from both sides of the fence. Who is right? All of us have to determine for ourselves what we believe about God, Jesus, the Bible, and Christianity. This blog is simply my take on these things.
Seriously, the amount of skin I have in this game gets less and less every day. Talking about the Bible and what it purportedly teaches is all fun and games. Since the Bible no longer has a mystical, supernatural hold on me, I am quite free to ignore it at will. I am free to be wrong because being wrong about the Bible is like being wrong about picking the players for a fantasy football league — not the end of the world.
My bigger focus is on those who are considering leaving Christianity or who have already left Christianity. I try to be a good example of a person who successfully broke the chains of bondage and left Christianity. I do not call on people to follow me or to do what I did. All I am is one guy with a story to tell. If my story helps someone; if it gives them the strength to take the big step they need to take, then I am grateful and humbled by being a small measure of help to them. However, if all I do is piss you off and make you think you have scabies, perhaps your short life would be better served reading other things than this blog. Telling me I am wrong will not bring the effect you desire. I will gladly admit to being wrong. Next?
Perhaps you are really hanging out here because, deep down, uncertainty is pulling at you, and you are trying to suppress it by lashing out at the poor, deluded, deceived, ignorant Evangelical-preacher-turned-atheist named Bruce. If me being your whipping boy leads to your deconversion, whip away, my friend, whip away.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
A letter submitted to the editor of the Defiance Crescent-News
Dear Editor,
Public education is foundational to success and progress. While parents are free to homeschool their children — as my partner and I did — or send them to a private school, we must not starve, neglect, or demonize public schools.
Public schools are government institutions, governed by local, state, and federal laws. Children from all walks of life attend public schools. Tolerance and inclusion are expected when our children or grandchildren attend school. My partner and I have sixteen grandchildren attending the Stryker, Tinora, Fairview, and Defiance school districts. We expect our grandchildren to receive well-rounded educations, taught by teachers who understand the importance of secular education and the concept of separation of church and state. Alas, a few teachers and administrators have attempted to proselytize our grandchildren or push their Evangelical beliefs. This, of course, should never happen. Christians are free to be school teachers and school administrators, but their personal beliefs should play no part in instructing students.
Recently, I attended a high school graduation — one sponsored and directed by a local school district. What a proud day for our family as one of our older grandchildren graduated with honors. In the space of three generations, we have gone from me being the first person to go to college, to our grandchildren going off to study at major universities. We owe their success to our public school system and its dedicated teachers.
As a non-Christian, I am accustomed to school districts trampling over the First Amendment and the wall separating church and state. I recently told a lawyer for the Freedom From Religion Foundation when speaking with her about the increasing encroachment of Lifewise Academy in Ohio’s schools, that there were enough church-state violations in rural northwest Ohio for FFRF to set up a full-time litigation office in this area.
The graduation ceremony featured a local clergyman who felt duty-bound to put in a good word for Jesus and his peculiar version of Christianity. Using the J-O-Y acronym, he reminded graduates of the importance of putting Jesus first. Never mind the fact that many of the graduates and attendees are not Christians. To be told that rightly ordering one’s life requires Jesus is beyond offensive. Such talk belongs in church, not secular public school graduations. I told a family member later that I live by the Y-O acrynym: yourself first, others second — no Jesus needed.
Note: I do not think the world is in moral decline. Different? Changing? Yes, but not in moral decline. What we consider moral or immoral is changing, and entrenched, unmoveable Evangelical Christians think this is a sign of moral decay. I am addressing the common Evangelical belief that the world is getting morally worse by the day, especially as the second coming of Christ approaches, and the unsaved are to blame.
Evangelical apologists are fond of blaming non-Christians for the world’s ills. If everyone would only get saved and worship the Evangelical deity, Christian nirvana would arrive. The various culture wars would be fulfilled, with Evangelical churches filled to the brim with people. All would be love, joy, and peace, right?
The Bible puts the blame for the world’s ills on different people; namely Christians. That’s right, Christians are to blame for the sorry state of the world. Second Chronicles 7:14 says:
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Let me break this down. God promises to forgive our sins and heal our land IF and when — and only if and when — Christians (who are called by his name) humble themselves, pray, seek the face of God, and turn from their wicked ways.
Instead of putting Second Chronicles 7:14 into action, Evangelicals blame everyone but themselves for the state of the world. Look at Dr. David Tee’s behavior in the comment section of his post, Is Providing Unbelievers “Evidence” a Waste of Time? By Derrick Thiessen. He accepts no responsibility or accountability for anything. This is standard Evangelical fare. Atheists are to blame. Agnostics are to blame. Catholics are to blame. Pagans are to blame. Humanists are to blame. Liberals are to blame. “Abortionists” are to blame. LGBTQ people are to blame. Immigrants are to blame. Democrats are to blame. Science is to blame. Mainline Christians are to blame. Muslims are to blame. Hollywood is to blame. Rock music is to blame. Satan is to blame. Demons are to blame. Pornographers are to blame. Feminists are to blame. Elvis is to blame. Illegal drugs are to blame. Public schools are to blame. Joe Biden is to blame. Blame, blame, blame, with zero personal accountability.
God will not be mocked, Evangelicals. Whatever you sow, you will reap. Want the world to change? Humble yourself, pray, seek the face of God, and turn [repent] from your wicked ways. And if you do that, not one of you will vote for Donald Trump. That upwards of eighty percent of Evangelicals plan to vote for Trump in November tells me that they haven’t read Second Chronicles 7:14 in a while. Either that or their lust for political and social power drowns out all sense of duty to God and love for their fellow bipeds.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
