This is the latest installment in the Songs of Sacrilege series. This is a series that I would like readers to help me with. If you know of a song that is irreverent towards religion, makes fun of religion, pokes fun at sincerely held religious beliefs, or challenges the firmly held religious beliefs of others, please send me an email.
Jesus died for me God has set me free Free from the rules of responsibility Born again again
Words don’t matter to me Faith can cover up a sea of iniquity Human nature is so bittersweet Born again again
Born again again In and out of the world of sin, and back in Guess I’m a little noncommittal Born again again
Well take a look at the look on my face Congregation’s lappin’ up my case of praise Liberation, sweet predestination Born again again
Drinkin’ druggin’ around Putting bets around town they found Inebriation, incarceration Born again again
Down on bended knee Bobbing like a cork up and down in the bapistry Talkin’ the walk, but not walkin’ the talk Ya see I’m born again again
Born again again In and out of the world of sin, and back in Guess I’m a little noncommittal Born again again
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
This is the latest installment in the Songs of Sacrilege series. This is a series that I would like readers to help me with. If you know of a song that is irreverent towards religion, makes fun of religion, pokes fun at sincerely held religious beliefs, or challenges the firmly held religious beliefs of others, please send me an email.
Today’s Song of Sacrilege is Get Born Again by Alice in Chains.
Sat suffering, I knew him when Fair-weather friends of mine Try not to think, I merely blink Hope you wish away the lies
Can you protect Me when I’m wrecked I pretend you’re still alive-ive Yeah
Who will deny All in time All the lies Who will deny All in time All the lies
I choose the day, one damp and gray Thick fog that hide our smiles
Clear all your sins Get born again Just repeat a couple lines-ines Lines Yeah, yeah
Who will deny All in time All the lies
Can you protect Me when I’m wrecked I pretend you’re still alive
I choose the day, one damp and gray Thick fog that hide our smiles
Sat suffering (who will deny, all in time, all the lies) Get born again (who will deny, all in time, all the lies) Sat suffering (who will deny, all in time, all the lies) Get born again (who will deny, all in time, all the lies) Sat suffering (who will deny, all in time, all the lies) Get born again (who will deny, all in time, all the lies) Sat suffering (who will deny, all in time, all the lies) Get born again (who will deny, all in time, all the lies) Sat suffering (who will deny, all in time, all the lies) Get born again (who will deny, all in time, all the lies) Sat suffering (who will deny, all in time, all the lies)
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
A seventy-seven-year-old Evangelical man sent me the following email (his remarks are in italics, mine are in bold font) :
I will try to be spiritually pragmatic. And please accept this as genuine.
Genuine as opposed to what? I know you read the Comment Policy and the Dear Evangelical page, so I am at a loss as to why you would email me. You could have read some of the posts on the Why? page, but you chose not to. Instead, you read several articles and came to a “genuine” conclusion about my past and present spiritual condition.
Proverbs 18:13 says: If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.
Were you born again or was your Christian experience based on emotion and or philosophical psychological reasoning?
Yes, I was born again (born from above). I was, in every way, born again just like you. Would you like to whip out your born-again and compare it to mine so we can see who has/had the “real” born-again experience?
I remember the date, time, and place when Jesus saved me. I understand theologically what it means to be born again, and I suspect my born-again experience had an emotional/psychological component just like yours.
I ask because in my years I have seen a great deal of ‘make believe’ in Christendom based on emotion. The charismatic movement has been a very effective in making emotion THE primary motivation in many lives. I wonder if you had been recruited that way, or similar?
No. I was a part of the Evangelical church for fifty years. I was an Evangelical pastor for twenty-five of those years. I think it is safe for me to say that I know what it means to be born again. Not only that, but hundreds of people were saved under my ministry and I personally led numerous people to Christ. I was a born-again pastor who took seriously my responsibility to lead sinners to faith.
I see the wheels turning in your mind as you try to square my story with your peculiar theology. I know this: I once was a Christian and now I am not. Whether or not that fits your theological box matters not.
You would know this verse and it certainly seems applicable to your actions and mindset… “They left us, but they were not part of us, for if they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. Their leaving made it clear that none of them was really part of us” (1st John 2:19).
Ah yes, time for a proof text or two so you can dismiss my story out of hand. I never was a Christian, according to you. If I had been, I would still be a Christian. I do hope you realize how absurd a thought this is. It’s akin to you saying I was never married even though I have evidence to the contrary. If I divorce my wife, that means we were never married. Of course, we were married once upon a time. I have a marriage certificate and a lifetime of experiences that prove we were married. Just because we divorced doesn’t mean we were never “really” married!
I take your profession of faith at face value. I would ask that you do the same for me.
If this is the truth of the matter I have doubts you will be influenced now with any appeal to take a second look at the person of Jesus of Nazareth and his ministry. He said we MUST be born again. Being born again is of the spiritual realm not of any emotional, philosophical or psychological betterment.
Again, been there, done that, and lived it for most of my life.
Please read the posts of the Why? page. You might find some of these posts helpful:
Our ‘fleshly’ existence cannot be improved by such effort for in reality our ego is still self centred; the universe revolves around ‘us’. As a Christian I must admit it still does, but I modify it a little by saying ‘my’ universe revolves around me.
Being born from above is a spiritual dimension yet within the confines of our human experience, and the two are generally at war with each other.
I am almost 77 and have fought this battle for 50 of those years. Ego has softened in my old age and spiritual warfare has quietened down to the occasional skirmish, consequently peace and joy tend to reign more often than not. O that I had learned the lessons earlier in life.
There is a great deal more to the Christian life than peace and joy, but that is another and even weightier matter.
Yes, according to the Bible, there is. Been there, done that. What more can I say?
Let me conclude by asking you a few questions: what did you hope to accomplish by contacting me? I would NEVER go to a Christian blog and email the owner about the falsity of Christianity. What, in your long life, suggests to you that this is appropriate behavior? It’s boorish and rude. Did God “lead” you to email me? If so, how do you know it was God leading you and not your ego? Have you contacted other atheist writers? If yes, how many of them repented and put their faith and trust in Jesus?
I hope you will thoughtfully ponder your reasons and motives for contacting me. Most of all, I hope you will think about whether this is a profitable way to engage atheists. Trust me, it’s not. I know the Bible inside and out. What could you possibly say that I haven’t heard before — often countless times? I have carefully weighed the claims of Christianity and found them wanting. There’s no argument you could make that would ever lead me back to the cuddly arms of Jesus. I’m not trying to be arrogant here; I’m just telling you how it is. Thousands have come before you, and to the man they have failed at their soul-saving mission.
I wish you well.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Deon Nel43, a devout, I-know-I am-right, filled with the Holy Ghost Christian, left a comment meant to show the deluded readers of this blog the error of their way. What follows is Deon Nel43’s comment and my response. My words are emboldened and italicized.
Email begins here
It is sad to notice that when people on this site describe their past conversion, it ends up to be something like:
Being a member of a church.
Doing what the church and the pastor expected i.e. reading my bible, praying, outreach etc..
Having lots of zeal and being sincere or even on fire for the Lord.
I don’t know of anyone who describes their conversion this way. The things listed by Deon Nel43 are what we would have called the fruit of faith, the evidence that we had been converted.
Is Deon Nel43 suggesting that Christians aren’t members of a church, don’t have to submit to those who the rule over them, or don’t need to pray and read the Bible? Is Deon Nel43 suggesting that Christians shouldn’t be zealous unto good works? I would be glad to provide proof texts for each one of these. Let the Bible proof text duel begin.
Bruce’s testimony of his past Christian experience sounds much the same and is also a bit confusing.
See above.
In one post he says that his past experiences was ‘REAL’ yet he turned his back on it??? Figure that one out. Maybe he should say that he was sincere.
My experiences were real because I physically, emotionally, mentally, and intellectually experienced them. These experiences are what we call life. I lived it and I know what I experienced. Is Deon Nel43 suggesting I had some sort of out-of-body experience?
And I was sincere too. Deon Nel43 wants to paint me as someone who was sincere but lost; someone who intellectually knew the “facts” but didn’t spiritually possess them. The only problem with this argument is that it is not true. This is just Deon Nel43’s way of dismissing a story (mine) that he can’t explain within the context of his version of Christianity.
That I can understand but how can something be real and then discarded like a dirty rag? Contradiction of words used. Unfortunately, the conversions described on this blog are not the conversions spoken of in scripture.
Who discarded Christianity like a dirty rag? I didn’t. It took several years before I was willing to say I was no longer a Christian. I agonized over this, and it was, by far, the hardest decision I ever made in my life.
It took a lot more soul-searching to get unsaved than it ever took to get saved. People like Deon Nel43 have never walked the path of deconversion so they have no idea how difficult it is to come to a place where you are willing to walk away from all that you considered precious and true.
conversion has always been:
A personal conviction of one’s fallen state and sinfulness
A personal revelation of my inability to do what God requires consistently.
A personal revelation of His justice and goodness and that those who do such things will not go unpunished.
A personal revelation of God’s love towards one in Jesus Christ.
A personal revelation of Jesus, the need for His death on the cross, His resurrection and ascension.
Jesus personally coming to live in the person through the infilling of His Spirit.
Memo to Deon Nel43: When I was a Christian I wholeheartedly, without reservation believed every one of your six points of conversion. Not only did I believe them, I preached them to others.
Of course, I know how Deon Nel43 will respond to this…I didn’t REALLY believe these things, because if I had I would still be a Christian.
And around and around we go…
Bible conversion therefore takes place when one had the above mentioned revelation, then turns from serving himself and gives himself fully to the Lord never to turn back (true repentance). God will then fill him with His Spirit as He promised. When His Spirit enters that person, a change takes place. This change is describe in the bible as ‘being born from ABOVE’ and ‘conversion’. Conversion is the same as transformation and metamorphosis e.g. a worm that transforms into a butterfly.
How can one be transformed and not know it? How can one have a revelation of one’s sinfulness, of God’s love and righteousness, of Jesus Himself and having His Spirit abiding inside one and still be totally unaware of it? How can one turn from darkness to light and see no difference?
I agree with Deon Nel43. I knew I was a blood-bought child of the living God. I knew the Holy Spirit lived inside me. And many of the people who read this blog would say the same. We were there when Jesus saved us. We were there when Jesus transformed our lives. Our attitudes and desires were for the things of God. We were, as the Bible says, reborn from above.
The bottom line is this: we were every bit as much a Christian as Deon Nel43 is now. It doesn’t matter whether Deon Nel43 can square this with his particular brand of theology or personal experience. The fact remains, I once was a Christian and now I am not; I once was saved and now I am not. To suggest people like me “never were saved” is to deny reality.
The answer is plain.The conversion experienced does not come from above but is earthly, sensual and demonic and should be repented of, rejected, and cast away…
However there are a true conversion that leads to an abundant life here and in the hereafter…
Here is what is plain for all to see. Neon Del43 thinks his interpretation of the Bible is truth and that his experience is normative. Anyone who does not believe as he believes is not a Christian. Simply put, Neon Del43 is the template for all those who want to be Christian and go to God’s Motel 6 when they die.
The real issue here is that Deon Nel43 doesn’t know what to do with the former Christians on this site. His theology tells him a true follower of Jesus can’t fall from grace, yet here we are. Rather than recognizing his theology might be wrong, he insists that people such as myself “never were saved,” He ignores the fact that a persuasive case can be made for the Bible teaching that Christians can, in fact, lose their salvation.
Deon Nel43 is just another example of a Christian who doesn’t get it. Many have come before him and I am sure many more will follow.
Several years ago, in response to one of my letters to the editor of the Defiance Crescent-News, local resident Nancy Dietrick sent me a postcard:
Instead of writing me a letter as several local Christians have, Dietrick decided to send me a postcard. I have no doubt local post office workers enjoyed her message to the village atheist.
What confused me was the notion that once I was “born again” I would understand the Bible. Isn’t that backwards? I thought one had to embrace the gospel message in the Bible in order to be born again? Doesn’t this require me to at least read some part of the Bible? I am so confused.
Not really.
Dietrick seems to forget that I was once “born again”. She seems to forget that I was a Christian for 50 years and a pastor for 25 of those years. I am quite certain that I know the Bible as well as anyone in Northwest Ohio. I have read the Bible countless times. Add to this the Bible reading I did as I prepared my sermons, it is safe to say that Bible comprehension is not my problem. In fact, the Bible is one of the main reasons I am now an atheist.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
