A local Fundamentalist Christian man by the name of Robert Sturges sent me the following message via e-mail:
Your assessments are woefully inaccurate, Christians do know Jesus intimately and we have a very real connection with him on a daily basis. That you lived so long off the church as a hypocrite and liar is a horrible crime against God and man. I pray all those influenced by your attacks against Gods people see you for the reprobate you have confessed yourself to be. My prayer is that God limits your influence and use it for his Glory to strengthen the church locally. And God shortly uses your damnation to glorify his name seeing you reject his grace and truths. Not content to be a reprobate you use your influence to try and subvert others. God will shortly lay it out before you, every single word.
Funny how one man telling his story is deemed a threat to Christianity. IF God is the all-powerful deity the Roberts of the world say he is, surely he could smite me, open up a fissure in the ground, and throw me into Hell. Now if God did THAT, well, I suspect other blasphemers would think twice about speaking ill of the Big Kahuna. As things stand now, it seems that God doesn’t care if I subvert others or can’t care because he doesn’t exist.
To Robert, I say: keep on praying! Join countless others who are praying for my demise. Years and years of praying for the Evangelical God to pour judgment upon my head . . . yet here I am, as reprobate and unrepentant as ever. Perhaps these Christian zealots should examine their own lives. Why isn’t God answering their prayers?
Sturges later added in the comment section of this post:
The judgment is to let you stumble over your sin into hell. God has everywhere and in everything left you a witness you refuse to acknowledge. Even satan has his uses and you are serving a purpose that God is pleased to allow until the appointed time. No one is praying for your demise those are your words, I am praying for God to negate any evil influence you have from doing any eternal harm. Your like a deranged man banging his head against a wall. The God who gave you breath and wrote your very DNA. Who upholds all things by the word of his power and gives men who do not love the truth over to deception and a lie will someday soon deal with all those who refuse to obey the gospel.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
This is the latest installment in the Songs of Sacrilege series. This is a series that I would like readers to help me with. If you know of a song that is irreverent towards religion, makes fun of religion, pokes fun at sincerely held religious beliefs, or challenges the firmly held religious beliefs of others, please send me an email.
Today’s Songs of Sacrilege is Religion Ruined My Life by Brian Ritchie, of Violent Femmes fame.
When I was five years old, I walked out of church and got hit by a car. I suffered a brain concussion and was put in the hospital. Many friends and relatives visited me there and brought lots of cool presents. Then Reverend McKenzie came bringing a boring coloring book with bible stories. I thought to myself, “If this man is in touch with God, would he bring such a lame present? No way!” My Mother says I was never the same after that day.
Religion ruined my life, Hallelujah, religion ruined my life Well I’m traumatized, permanantly scarred, hoisted by religion’s petard
When I was twelve, my famiily switched churches because the one were attending wouldn’t admit black people. In Sunday School I would ask questions like, “How did they fit two of every species on that boat? There are no boats that large.” The minister told my parents, “He’s causing doubt.” I became the first child to be expelled from the church. When I realized my religion wouldn’t let blacks in and would kick a boy out, it set me on a path of antisocial behaviour, which landed me in jail within three years.
Religion ruined my life, Hallelujah, religion ruined my life Well I’m traumatized, permanantly scarred, hoisted by religion’s petard
As an adult, I thought I was safe from religion. But when I was 26, my wife took all the money I had saved from years of touring with the Violent Femmes and went into hiding in Jamaica. I didn’t see my young son for five months. She came under the spell of a Rastafarian con man and the money dissapeared. We’re divorced now. She’s into Hindu and says she’s raising my four year old boy to be a great spiritual leader.
Religion ruined my life, Hallelujah, religion ruined my life Well I’m traumatized, permanantly scarred, hoisted by religion’s petard
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
You have contacted me several times in recent years via Facebook, hoping to reconnect with the man you once called Pastor. Shockingly, you found out that I am no longer a Christian; that I no longer believe the Bible is the Word of God; that I proudly self-identify as an atheist and a humanist. I can only imagine how difficult and heartbreaking it was for you to read my blog for the first time. You are not the first former church member to feel this way. I am sure you hoped that you would find me faithfully serving Jesus, preaching the gospel, and winning souls to Christ. Instead, you found out that I have repudiated all that I once believed and preached.
We were Facebook friends for a short while, and then you unfriended me. I told you that I understood your decision to unfriend me. I know my story can be troubling and disconcerting to those who were once close to me. You sent me another friend request, yet before I could accept it, you thought better of friending me and deleted the request. Again, I understand. You have a hard time reconciling the Bruce who was your pastor in the 1980s, and the Bruce of today. Because your worldview requires you to frame and measure everything according to your interpretation of the Bible, you find it impossible to square my life today with that of thirty-plus years ago. From a theological perspective, the current Bruce Gerencser is a lost man headed for Hell, yet you remember a Bruce Gerencser who loved God and devoted his life to following after Jesus.
Set the religious stuff aside for a moment. Instead of attempting to see me through religious eyes, how about seeing me through human eyes? The kind, loving, compassionate, temperamental, flawed man who pastored Somerset Baptist Church decades ago still exists. The man you have such fond memories of is still alive and well — though physically in poor health. From a human perspective, I haven’t changed much. The character strengths and flaws I had as your pastor still exist today. Next month, I will turn sixty-four, and if there is one thing I have learned, it is this: humans rarely change. We are, character-wise, who we are. While my beliefs, politics, and worldview have dramatically changed over the years, my nature has not. Sure, age, sickness, and time have affected me, as they do all of us, but, for the most part, I am not much different today from who I was during the exciting days when Somerset Baptist was a thriving, growing church.
If you can ever look beyond your theological beliefs and see Bruce, the man, you will find out that the man you once loved and respected is right in front of you. Sadly, many Evangelicals cannot see people for who they are because their theological beliefs force them to define people according to what the Bible says instead of what they can see with their eyes. Your fellow Christians routinely savage me. I have been repeatedly told that I am evil and a follower of Satan. Evidently, what I believe, and not my behavior, determines what kind of man I am. The moment I said, I no longer believe in the Christian God, I went from a loving husband, father, and grandfather to a man who is worthy of scorn and derision; a man, some say, who is hiding a life of debauchery and licentiousness.
You have two choices set before you, Wendy. Either you can embrace and befriend the Bruce of 2021, or you can hang on to the memory of the 1987 Bruce. I would love to be friends with you in the here and now, but life is too short for me to worry about people who cannot see beyond my beliefs and are thus unable or unwilling to befriend me. Virtually all of my former Evangelical friends, parishioners, and ministerial colleagues, have been unable to remain friends with me post-Jesus. I understand why this is so. Fidelity to Jesus and the Bible was the glue that held our relationships together. Once I deconverted, that which bound us was gone. Rare are friendships that survive for a lifetime. Today, almost thirteen years after I attended church for the last time, I have two Evangelical friends. Everyone else has written me off or turned me into a sermon illustration, a warning of what happens when someone no longer believes the Bible is true.
Since you can’t seem to bring yourself to befriend me as I now am, you are left with your memories of the time we spent together in the rolling hills of Southeast Ohio. And that’s okay. I, too, have many fond memories of the eleven years I pastored Somerset Baptist Church. Nothing in the present can change the experiences of the past. If it helps you think better of me, then, by all means, cling to our shared memories, pushing from your mind thoughts of Atheist Bruce. If you ever want to be friends again, you know where to find me.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
As a teen in Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) churches in the 1960s and 1970s, I heard numerous fiery preachers rail against situational ethics. In their minds, everything was black and white. THUS SAITH THE LORD! No space was given for differences of opinion. Either you were on the preacher’s side, uh, I mean God’s side, or you were backslidden/out of the will of God. Every aspect of life was strictly regulated.
Situational ethics or situation ethics takes into account the particular context of an act when evaluating it ethically, rather than judging it according to absolute moral standards. With the intent to have a fair basis for judgments or action, one looks to personal ideals of what is appropriate to guide them, rather than an unchanging universal code of conduct, such as Biblical law under divine command theory.
As you can see, situational ethics has no place in Fundamentalist churches. (Please see Are Evangelicals Fundamentalists?) Driven by arrogance and certainty, Fundamentalists resolutely believe that the Bible teaches them everything they need to know pertaining to life and godliness. In those (many) instances where a Bible verse does not cover a particular behavior or action, Fundamentalists use implication or inference to give a behavior or action Biblical justification. If all else fails, pastors appeal to church standards — lists of rules and regulations that supposedly can be found in the Bible if you get a 6x magnifying glass out and look really, really, really hard.
And then came COVID-19. The CDC and state/county health departments published rules and guidelines for protecting oneself from getting infected. Once Trump was thrown out of office, these health organizations authored clear guidelines for churches and parachurch groups to follow if they wanted to keep people safe from infection. Had churches followed these guidelines, there would have been fewer infections and deaths from COVID-19. Instead, many state governors exempted churches from health department mandates, saying that the First Amendment trumps public health and safety. Some churches — typically mainline/liberal congregations — did the right thing, but other churches — mainly Evangelical churches — did not. Instead of following the law, these churches practice situational ethics. Instead of making a Biblical case for social distancing, mask-wearing, and vaccinations — and a case can be easily made — pastors tell congregants to follow their hearts, to do what they think is best. Pastors, in fact, go out of their way to NOT tell people what to do about COVID. (Well, those who aren’t anti-maskers/anti-vaxxers — a huge problem in Evangelical churches.) Yet, pastors and congregants don’t take this same approach to abortion, same-sex marriage, LGBTQ people, premarital sex, masturbation, and a host of other behaviors considered sins. Instead, people are left to their own devices when it comes to COVID-19. (Please see Bruce, How Do You Know Your Wife’s Mom Was Infected with COVID-19 at Church?)
Jesus commanded his followers to love their neighbors. It seems to me that loving one’s neighbor in the midst of a killer pandemic requires, at the very least, social distancing, mask-wearing, and vaccinations. Further, it can be argued that loving one’s neighbor demands refraining from holding group gatherings. Instead, situational ethics are the norm in many Evangelical churches when it comes to COVID-19. Crass indifference put others at risk of infection and death. The Bible says there are two great commands: love God, love your fellow man. I used to preach that you can’t say you love God if you don’t love your fellow man. Want the unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines of the World to think well of you and your church? Show through your conduct that you love them. Wear a mask, practice social distancing, and get vaccinated. If you are unwilling to do these things, don’t tell me how much you “love” Jesus. Your words are shallow and meaningless.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I spent fifty years in the Christian church. Twenty-five of those years were spent pastoring Evangelical churches in Ohio, Michigan, and Texas. I attended an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) Bible college in the 1970s. Most of my Christian life was spent either attending or pastoring Baptist churches. As a young aspiring pastor, I was taught that there was a strict separation between church and state; that freedom of religion was absolutely crucial to the life of the American Republic and to the status of religion. Church and state were on equal planes, each having its sphere of influence. Churches and preachers didn’t meddle in matters of state, and the government was expected to keep its nose out of church business. In the late 1970s, things began to change with the establishment of the Moral Majority by Paul Weyrich, Ed McAteer, and Jerry Falwell. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, scores of parachurch groups were started for the express purpose of reclaiming America for God. These promoters of American nationalism and exceptionalism flexed their muscles during the 2016 presidential election, delivering to Americans their next president, Donald Trump.
The last thirty-plus years have brought a radical change in Evangelical thinking concerning the freedom of religion and separation of church and state. The impenetrable barrier between church and state that President John F. Kennedy spoke of in the 1960s is now considered a fabrication of libtards who are hellbent on destroying Evangelical, conservative Catholic, and Mormon Christianity. One former presidential candidate, Rick Santorum, even went so far as to say that the separation of church and state is a myth; that the founding fathers never meant to exclude Christians and their religion from influencing and controlling government. These deniers of separation of church and state believe, to the man, that the United States has been uniquely chosen by God — a special nation above all others. Believing that the United States is a Christian nation, these theocrats spend their waking hours attempting to take over government at every level. Having trampled over the wall of separation of church and state, these warriors for God intend on returning America to what they consider its Christian roots.
While Evangelicals have discarded the notion of the separation between church and state, considering it a myth, they continue to say that they support the First Amendment and the idea of freedom of religion. However, their idea of freedom of religion is far different from what has generally been understood in the past. Freedom of religion and separation of church and state go hand in hand. Can we have the freedom to worship or not worship as we please if the government gives preference to Christianity? No! As history clearly shows, any time religion and state are joined at the hip, freedoms and liberty are lost and people die. Who is it that is clamoring for the national registration of Muslims and the banning of immigrants from non-Christian countries? Who is it that is demanding that teacher-led prayer and Bible study be permitted in public schools? Who is it that wants creationism taught as science and the Ten Commandments posted on public school classroom walls? Who is it that is tirelessly working to overturn societal progress on same-sex marriage, LGBTQ rights, and abortion? Who is it that is clamoring for the government to adopt a nationwide voucher program that will pay for students to attend private Christian schools? Evangelicals and their conservative compatriots in other sects, that’s who.
So, when Evangelicals talk about the freedom of religion, remember what they really mean is freedom for THEIR religion, and their religion alone. While they with their lips say that they support the freedom of all religions, what they really mean is that they support your right to worship your God freely as long as it doesn’t interfere with or influence the American religion, Christianity, and its control of government. Muslims, Buddhists, and other non-Christian religions will be tolerated only so far as they stay out of the way. According to theocratic Evangelicals, their God alone is the one true ruler over all, and the Bible is the standard by which we should govern our lives socially and politically. And those atheists who have tirelessly worked to make sure the wall of separation of church and state is absolute? They will be expected to stop harassing fine Christian school officials and government leaders who only want to follow the dictates of God and the Bible. People who spent their lives working to change the legal system and its brutal punishment of the poor and people of color will likely see a return to the days of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Again, appeals will be made to the Bible and its code of justice. It should not surprise anyone when Evangelicals call for re-criminalizing homosexuality, adultery, fornication, abortion, and marijuana use.
Remember these things the next time your Evangelical friends, family members, or coworkers say they support the freedom of religion. You might want to ask them what they mean by “freedom of religion.” Do they mean freedom equally for all religions? Do they mean freedom to not believe in any gods at all? Do they support the separation of church and state? If not, do they believe America is a Christian nation? Would they be okay with a Muslim president or building a mosque next door to their Baptist church? If Christian prayers and Bible readings are permitted in public schools, would they be okay with Muslim prayers and Buddhist teachings being given the same level of support? As you ask these types of questions, you will likely find out that what your Evangelical acquaintances really mean when they say “freedom of religion” is freedom for the Christian religion, for “Biblical” Christianity. Believing that secularism equals socialism and communism, these worshipers of the Christian God want a culture that is dominated and controlled by Christian beliefs and philosophies.
Now that God’s Only Party (GOP) controls most state governments, and will likely regain control of Congress in 2022, we can expect to see attempts to derail and destroy the social progress of the last sixty years. I suspect that savvy Evangelical parachurch groups will use state and federal courts to bulldoze the wall of separation of church and state, leaving its rubble as a monument to the days when social progressives thought they could challenge the authority of the Christian God. And it is for this reason that those of us who value religious freedom must not idly stand by while Evangelicals attempt to remake America into a new version of the 1950s. Don’t think for a moment that such monumental societal change cannot happen. It can and it will if we stand by and do nothing. One need only watch what is happening with abortion rights and transgender rights to see how quickly things can change. Just because Joe Biden and the Democrats currently control the government doesn’t mean the culture war is over. It’s not, and if we don’t fight, we are sure to wake up one morning and see the Christian Flag flying over the White House.
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Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Daniel Kluver continues to share what God has laid upon his heart to tell me. Here’s what he sent me tonight:
You are the one making an ass out of your self! If all you can talk is shit then go talk It to the devil. A devil did speak through in a lie yesterday. You claimed to have demonic power yesterday [evidently Kluver doesn’t understand sarcasm] but the fact is the devil in you was just boasting about himself! You have no power and your garbage that you dump into the world will soon be over according to your testimony about your health [ah yes, another passive-aggressive threat]. Sometimes when people are infested with evil spirits they don’t even know what is wrong with their selves. If that’s the case with you then you still have a chance for the evil spirits to be flushed out and then you won’t have to keep living like the guy in mark chapter five.[the demon-possessed maniac of Gadera] I have learned how to get demons to manifest in people like you and that is evident.
Any further messages from Kluver will be added to this post. It is time to put the Daniel Kluver saga to bed. If you have not already done so, please read my previous posts about Kluver’s emails, comments, and social media messages:
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Emmanuel Baptist Church, Buckeye Lake, Ohio, Bruce Gerencser’s ordination April 1983, age 25
Several years ago, I received the following email:
I read your blog. Thanks for sharing. I have been an Evangelical Christian since I was 5. I accepted Jesus of the Bible at that time. When I read your “Why I Hate Jesus”, it made me sad. I couldn’t help but think that you have had a lot of pain from people who profess Jesus Christ and that Jesus Himself has let you down. I did have a question. On your ABOUT page, the question was “when were you called into the ministry. ” If you don’t believe in Jesus anymore, who do you think called you into the ministry?
In this post, I want to focus on the question, “If you don’t believe in Jesus anymore, who do you think called you into the ministry?”
This is a fairly common question I am asked when someone is trying to square my current atheistic life with that of the twenty-five years I spent in the ministry. I believed that it was GOD who called me into the ministry, but now I believe that this same God is a fiction. If God doesn’t exist, who is it then that spoke to my “heart” as a fifteen-year-old boy, telling me that I was to be a pastor, a preacher of the good news of the gospel?
The Evangelical culture I grew up in emphasized the importance of boys and girls growing up to be full-time servants of Jesus Christ. Children and teenagers were encouraged to pray and ask God if he wanted them to devote their lives to the ministry, be it as a pastor, evangelist, or missionary. As Hannah did with Samuel, parents were challenged to give their children over to God, hoping that he might see fit to use them in a mighty way to advance his Kingdom. Pastors considered it a sign of God’s favor if teen boys were called to preach under their ministry. Like the gunslingers of yesteryear, pastors put a notch on their gospel gun every time a boy surrendered to the ministry.
Being called to full-time service means you are special, uniquely chosen by God to do his work. From the moment a boy says, preacher, I think God is calling me to preach, he is treated by the church as some sort of extraordinary human being. I heard countless preachers say that being called into the ministry was the greatest calling in the world; that becoming President of the United States would be a step down from the ministry. Preacher boys — as young men called into the ministry are often nicknamed — are quickly given preacher things to do. No time is better than NOW, I was told, to start serving God and preaching his Word. I preached my first sermon to the Junior High Sunday school class two weeks after I stood before the church and said, God is calling me to be a preacher. I spent the next few years honing my preaching skills at youth meetings, nursing homes, and any other place that didn’t mind hearing the ramblings of an inexperienced, uneducated boy preacher. By the time I delivered my last sermon in April 2005, I had preached 4,000+ messages, often preaching three or more sermons a week.
What I have written above is key to answering the question, “If you don’t believe in Jesus anymore, who do you think called you into the ministry?” Since I don’t think God exists, the only way I can possibly answer this question is from an environmental, psychological, cultural, and sociological perspective. It is important to remember that it is not necessary for God to exist for people to believe that he does. Billions of people believe in a supernatural deity/force that does not exist. Every day, billions of people will pray to, worship, and swear allegiance to deities that cannot be seen, heard, or touched. These deities can, however, be felt, and it is these feelings that lead people to believe that their invisible God is indeed real. Thus, I KNOW that God called me into the ministry because I “felt” him speak to me. This is no different from the five-year-old Bruce Gerencser believing that Santa Claus somehow came down the chimney every Christmas Eve and put presents under the tree just for him. Of course, time, experience, and knowledge caused me to see that my beliefs about Santa were false, as they did when it came to my beliefs about God.
These religious feelings and beliefs of mine were reinforced by the Bible. Various verses in the Word of God speak of men who are called to be pastors/elders/bishops/missionaries/evangelists. Variously interpreted by Christian sects, all agree on one point: God calls boys/men (and in some cases, girls/women) into the ministry. This calling is essentially God laying his hand on someone and saying, I have set you apart for my use. Church youngsters are regaled with stories about men and women called by God who did great works. From the Bible, stories of the faith-driven exploits of Noah, Moses, David, Gideon, Elijah, Elisha, Joshua, the apostles, and Paul are used as reminders of what God can and will do for those willing to dedicate their lives to serving him. Church children are encouraged to read the biographies of men (and a few women) mightily used by God. I heard more than a few preachers say, look at what God did through Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, Dwight Moody, Bob Jones, John R. Rice, Billy Sunday, Adoniram Judson, Andrew Fuller, David Brainerd, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Finney, Jack Hyles, B.R. Lakin, and countless other servants of God. Who knows what God might do through you if you will dare to surrender your life to him? What young preacher boy wouldn’t want to be someday used by God like these men?
I spent thirty-three years believing that God had called me to preach the unsearchable riches of Jesus Christ; that this calling was irrevocable; that misery and judgment (and perhaps death) awaited if I failed to obey God. The Apostle Paul said in First Corinthians 9:16:
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
As with Paul, Bruce the Evangelical preacher had a burning desire to preach the gospel; to tell as many people as possible that Jesus alone can save them from their sin; that there is a Hell to shun and a Heaven to gain; that what is a man profited if he gain the world and lose his soul. I shed countless tears over the lost — both in and out of the church. I spent untold hours praying for revival to break out in America, spreading to the ends of the earth. Believing Jesus was coming back to earth soon, I devoted myself to making sure as many people as possible heard the gospel. I thought, at the time, my duty is to tell them. It is up to God to save them. For many years, my evangelistic zeal burned so hot that I preached a minimum of four sermons a week, along with preaching on the streets and holding services at the local nursing home and county jail. To quote the motto of Midwestern Baptist College — the institution I attended in the 1970s — Souls for Jesus is Our Battle Cry, Souls for Jesus is Our Battle Cry. We Never Will Give in While Souls are Lost in Sin, Souls for Jesus is Our Battle Cry!
My burning the candle at both ends wouldn’t have been possible if I didn’t believe that God had called me into the ministry and was speaking to and through me. I believed that this God existed. I may never have seen God or audibly heard him, but I felt his presence in my life. I “heard” the Holy Spirit speaking to me, leading me, and teaching me truth. These experiences of mine were verified by what I read in the Bible and Christian biographies and what I observed in the lives of my pastors, teachers, and mentors. Most of all, they were verified by the work God accomplished through my preaching and leadership. How then, knowing these things, can I now believe that God is a work a fiction; that my ministerial experiences were the work, not of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, but the works of a quite-human Bruce Gerencser?
The deconversion process afforded me the opportunity to step back from my life and view it from a distance. As I looked at my parents’ religious, theological, social, and political leanings and that of the pastors of the churches we attended, it would have been shocking if I hadn’t, as a teenager, professed that God was calling me into the ministry. At age five, while we were living in San Diego and attending Scott Memorial Baptist Church (Scott Memorial was pastored by Tim LaHaye), I told my mother that I was going to be a preacher someday. Not a baseball player, policeman, or garbage truck driver — a preacher! This, of course, pleased my Mom. (Ironically, neither my mother or father ever heard me preach.) When people talked about the angst they had over trying to determine what they wanted to do with their lives when they grew up, I had no frame of reference. I never wrestled with what I wanted to be as an adult. I always wanted to be a preacher, and by God’s wonderful, matchless grace, that is exactly what I became. Everything I experienced in my life led me to the monumental day at Trinity Baptist Church in Findlay, Ohio, when, with tears and trembling, I told the church God was calling me into the ministry. Scores of fellow church members shouted Amen! and later hugged me, telling me that they would pray for me. I am sure that more than a few people had mixed feelings about my calling. Really Lord? Are you sure you can use this temperamental, ornery redheaded boy? I have often wondered what my peers thought as I went from the boy who told the youth director to fuck off! to a young man who loved Jesus, carried his Bible to school, handed out tracts to his unsaved friends, went soulwinning, worked on a bus route, and occasionally preached at Sunday evening youth meetings. The old Bruce, who wore frayed jeans, boots, and tee-shirts to church, gave way to the New Bruce, who wore preacher clothes, including ties. What’s next? Swearing off girls? Anyone who knew me as a preacher boy knows I resolutely obeyed the Baptist Rulebook®. (Please read The Official Independent Baptist Rulebook) I didn’t smoke, drink, cuss, listen to rock music, or engage in premarital sex. I had plenty of girlfriends, but I drew the line at kissing, holding hands, and putting our arms around each other. My commitment to virginity was part of my devotion to God. As much as I wanted to have sex, I willingly took many a cold shower, keeping myself pure until my wedding day.
Most Baptist preachers will likely say that they just KNEW God was calling them to preach. If they are still Christians, I am sure they attribute their feelings to supernatural intervention. It’s all because of J-E-S-U-S, not me, I’m sure they’ll say, yet the signs in front of their churches say Rev. So-and-So, Pastor. You see, the whole notion of being called by God is rooted not in the supernatural, but in earthly human experiences. My Baptist faith taught me to call my interest in the ministry a calling from God, but in truth, it was the natural outcome of my upbringing and experiences. My entrance into the preaching fraternity was never in doubt. How could I not have become a preacher?
There is nothing in my story that requires the actual existence of a supernatural deity. All that is required is that I, along with the other players in my life, believe God exists. For my first fifty years of life, I believed that the Evangelical God was every bit a real as the sun, moon, stars, and earth. And now I don’t. Does this invalidate my years in the ministry? Of course not. All that has changed is my perspective and how I see my trajectory from a sinner to a Holy Spirit-led follower of Jesus Christ. Instead of God being the first cause, I now know that environmental, psychological, cultural, and sociological influences molded me into the man who would one day preach thousands of sermons in churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Congregants called me Pastor Bruce, Rev. Gerencser, or Preacher — the man of God who spoke the Word of God to the people of God. I now know who I really was . . . his name is Bruce.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Earlier this week, an Evangelical man named Daniel Kluver decided to contact my wife on Facebook. (Please see Evangelical Man Messages My Wife on Facebook.) Kluver also messaged me (please see Another Facebook Message From an Evangelical Zealot) and left comments on my posts on Facebook. Kluver has since blocked me on Facebook — my demonic power must be too strong for him. Before he blocked me, he sent me one more message.
Here’s what Kluver had to say. My response is indented and italicized.
You morphs are just confirmation of the times we are in.
Kluver says I am a “morph.” I had no idea what this term meant. I found out the word has several technical meanings. The word is also listed in the Urban Dictionary, and I suspect this is the definition Kluver wants to use.
A morph is “a person who acts like an idiot, a person who acts like a crackhead.” I don’t use crack, so I assume that Kluver is calling me an idiot.
You have shown that you don’t love or fear god and you are useless now!
I am an atheist, so of course I don’t love nor fear Kluver’s God. Said God is a mythical being, a work of fiction. I can say the same thing about every extant God. I do, however, fear the worshipers of deities. People cause harm, not gods. Beliefs cause harm, not gods.
Kluver says that because I don’t love or fear his God that I am “useless.” I have no idea what he means.
Your opinions are slanderous and you have become just like satan whom you serve. A stumbling block to some. Just a bunch of hot air to others.
To devout Fundamentalist Christians such as Kluver, I am sure my writing seems slanderous. My goal has always been to help those who have questions/doubts about Christianity or have left Christianity. My target audience has NEVER been saved, sanctified, all-hopped-up-on-Jesus Christians. If such people read my writing, it is because they choose to do so. Don’t want to get your panties in a bunch? Don’t want to feel righteous indignation? Don’t want to get angry? Then don’t read my writing.
Kluver seems to forget that he is the one who commented on this blog, and he is the one who contacted my wife and me on Facebook. I left Christianity thirteen years ago. Not one time I have ever contacted a Christian and tried to convert them to atheism. I abhor such behavior. I do, however, respond to Christians who email me, leave comments on this site, or comment on social media. My nuclear policy is this: no first strike.
Lost on Kluver is the fact that if I don’t believe in the existence of God, neither do I believe in the existence of Satan/Lucifer/Devil/Beelzebul/Day-Star/Son of the Morning/The Evil One/Father of Lies/Ruler of this World/God of this Age/Angel of Light/Roaring Lion/Destroyer/Apollyon/Abaddon/Serpent/Deceiver of the World/Accuser of God’s People. No matter what name you give her, I don’t believe she exists.
Kluver believes I am a stumbling block to some Christians. He is, of course, right. I know that many Christians find my story and my critiques of Evangelicalism to be troubling and disconcerting. Former parishioners and colleagues in the ministry have told me that my writing so troubles them that they can’t read it. Why is that? I am just one man with a story to tell. If my writing causes followers of Jesus to doubt their beliefs, why am I to blame? I make no effort to evangelize people. Millions of people have read my writing over the years, many of whom are Christian. I am humbled by the sheer number of people who think my writing is worth reading. I sure as hell wouldn’t read this shit! 🙂 If readers find help and encouragement from my writing, I am grateful. Grateful to whom, you ask? Loki, of course. 🙂
I started blogging in 2007. At the time, I was still a Christian — barely. Since that time, I have heard from scores of people who have been helped by my writing, some of whom deconverted after reading my work. Do I find satisfaction in people deconverting? Sure. I am persuaded that any move away from Christian Fundamentalism is a good one. If my writing helps someone break free from the pernicious clutches of Evangelicalism, I count myself blessed. Blessed by whom, you ask? Loki, of course. 🙂
Kluver believes I am full of hot air. Maybe. However, I suspect that Kluver thinks my educated opinions about Evangelical Christianity are what he is calling “hot air.” The traffic numbers for this site suggest that there are a lot of people who seem to like “hot air.” I encourage Kluver to start his own blog. By all means, rage against the evil atheist Bruce Gerencser. Deconstruct my story and attack my beliefs. Nail me to a cross and metaphorically crucify me. My life and work are an open book. By all means, blast away! (A number of Evangelical zealots have done just that over the years. They miserably failed, abandoning their attempts to deconstruct my life.)
Rough times ahead just right around the corner for those who hate god.
Yet another passive-aggressive threat from Kluver. What, exactly, lies ahead for those who “hate God?” Need I remind Kluver that atheists don’t hate God? Atheists don’t hate mythical beings. Wouldn’t it be silly to do so?
You’re wrong about who dies when you said that we will both die. Believers never die!
*sigh* Both Kluver and I will one day die. I am sixty-three, and he is sixty-four. We are in the final stretch of life. If I live to age seventy, that means ninety percent of my life is over. I hope that I live that long, but I have my doubts. Gastroparesis, fibromyalgia, and osteoarthritis are taking their toll on my body. I know death is stalking me, just as it is Daniel Kluver. Unfortunately, Kluver thinks he’s never going to die; that the moment he draws his last breath in this life, he will awake in Heaven. This, of course, is not taught in the Bible. Orthodox Christian theology teaches people — saved and lost — remain in the grave until they are resurrected from the dead and judged by God. Kluver and I are headed for the same place — the grave.
I am amazed at your ignorance and you probably were thrown out of the congregation that you say you were pastoring. I doubt that much of what you said is true!
I am amazed at my ignorance too. There is so much that I don’t know.
Kluver ends his message by trying to inflict as much emotional pain as possible. It’s evident he wants to hurt me. Thus, he calls me a liar, doubts my story is true, and says I was thrown out of the congregation I pastored.
I do my best to give an open, honest accounting of my life — past and present. I just completed a five-part series titled I am a Publican and a Heathen, detailing my excommunication from Community Baptist Church in Elmendorf, Texas. I also wrote a post about what happened to the churches I pastored. Please read What Happened to the Churches I Pastored?
Why don’t you get a job?
Well, I am disabled and retired. Had Kluver bothered to read more than the five posts he read on this site, he might have known this. He might have learned about my struggles with chronic illness and pain. He might also have learned that I can no longer drive. Believe me, if someone had a job opening for a broken-down, sick old man like me, I would take it.
Not that I don’t work, I do. It takes me hours each day to write for this blog. While I don’t make much money from blogging, I do treat it as a job. I also manage my sister’s business website. Throw in the money I make from stripping on the weekends, and I am rolling in cash from the “work” I do. Of course, Kluver uses “Why don’t you get a job?” as a way to inflict emotional pain. My beliefs no longer matter to him; he’s out for blood.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Yesterday, I responded to a Facebook message sent by Evangelical Christian Daniel Kluver to my wife. (Please see Evangelical Man Messages My Wife on Facebook.) Kluver also messaged me, but I didn’t see it at first, thanks to it landing in my spam folder. Evidently, God can’t circumvent spam filters. What follows is Kluver’s message (s) to me. My response is indented and italicized.
Peter ruckman was disliked by many brainwashed preacher boys but he was my favorite teacher because he was a straight shooter! Just because the Bible says in the latter times some will depart from the faith giving heed to doctrines of demons like the nuns that won’t marry doesn’t mean you have to. You should watch demons and Christians by ruckman.
This one paragraph tells me everything I need to know about how Daniel Kluver views the Bible and the world, in general. Kluver is a follower of Peter Ruckman, a thrice-divorced, racist Independent Fundamentalist Baptist preacher (now deceased). (Please see Questions: Bruce, In Your IFB Days Did You Encounter Peter Ruckman?) Ruckman was a nasty, arrogant, self-righteous preacher, as are many of his followers.
In Kluver’s world, people who disagree with his demigod are “brainwashed.” Ruckman was King James-only, going so far as to say that even the italicized words in the King James Bible were inspired by God. Ruckman may be dead, but his teachings about the King James Bible live on, infecting the minds of countless Fundamentalist Baptist preachers. I know numerous preachers who are Ruckmanites, even though they refuse to admit where their theological beliefs came from. These preachers despise the man, but love his doctrines. Ruckman operated a Bible Institute in Pensacola, Florida, churning out clones for decades.
You speak like you were a brainwashed preacher boy and it makes me wonder if you are really saved.
In his message to Polly, Kluver suggested that I was still saved. Now he thinks I am unsaved, that I have been “brainwashed.” By whom, he does not say. As a Christian, I was directed, led, and taught by God himself — the Holy Spirit. Thus, if I was “brainwashed” by anyone, it was God.
I have prayed for god to soften your heart and cut you to the marrow if that’s what it takes.with stents and patches all over our bodies we are in the third quarter of life.
Since God ALWAYS answers Kluver’s prayers (his words), I should expect the Holy Spirit to “soften my heart and cut me to the marrow.” I’m melting, I’m melting! Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. Kluver’s mind is so infected and corrupted with Bible words that he is unable to write using everyday English words unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines such as myself might understand.
I would probably bet that your wife has been a first peter chapter three wife at times.
Kluver says that Polly was, at one time, a First Peter 3 wife. Yes, she still loves peter. 🙂 What Kluver means is this:
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Polly was a First Peter 3 wife ALL the time; that is before we realized how harmful and demeaning such teachings were. I can confidently report that Polly is no longer a First Peter 3 wife — and I have lived to tell about it. 🙂
Gods message to you is don’t let your pride get in the way of eternity! The only way you could ever preach gods word and denounce him later is only by devils that you have let surround yourself. Devils perched on both shoulders whispering lies into your mind to block the Spirit of God all mighty!
Ah yes, I am surrounded by devils. As many Evangelicals do, Kluver can’t make my past and present life fit in his narrow Fundamentalist box. Instead of just accepting that I once was a Christian, and now I am not, Kluver scrambles and flails, looking for ways to explain my life. Further, Kluver thinks he has a direct message from God for me. I am “prideful,” and unless I humble myself before Kluver, uh I mean God, I will end up in Hell. You see, Kluver thinks he is in an MMA match with me. His goal is to make me submit.
there is a literal hell and I have found that out before I was saved. God used it as a tool to get my attention and it worked.
No, there’s not. Kluver provides no evidence for the existence of Hell. None, nada, zip. Kluver seems to suggest that he had some sort of experience that proved to him Hell is real. However, I doubt that Kluver has literally and physically visited Hell. If he has, I would sure love to see the evidence for his claim. You know, photos or video? The only hell I see is in this life. The same goes for heaven.
I am going to ask God to pull back his protective hand off of your life if that’s what it takes to get your attention. In case you haven’t realized it yet I asked God to use me and instead of street witnessing like I used to he is using technology. I have to stay prayed up to fight the devil everyday and you saw how he was working on me with the first message I sent you.
Kluver now turns to passive-aggressive threats. He’s asking a non-existent deity to take his hand off of me and cause me physical harm to get my attention. The only thing that concerns me with such threats is that Kluver might think that God wants him to be the means of “punishment.” Do I worry about such people? Sure, a bit. Religion can and does cause people to do all sorts of crazy shit. That said, if I hid every time an Evangelical zealot threatened me, I would never leave my home. Kluver told me today on Facebook: “One thing about you is you are entertaining but I am tired of you and your stupidity.” I reminded him that he was the one who contacted me.
If I don’t see you in heaven then I will see you on judgment day! Take care and god bless!
There is no Heaven or Hell, so Kluver and I will not see other after death. Both of us will most certainly die, but after that? Nothing. Both of us will become worm food or ash. Besides, if there really is a Heaven, why would I ever want to live in the same universe as the Kluvers of the world? No thanks. Give me Hell every time. Better company, and definitely better parties.
Kluver also wrote:
I read your part one about preachers and i am seeing all around me how church leaders are fouled up with relationships.I have been out of a so called church for over a year now. I poured my heart and soul into the congregation and when i retired from drywall contracting and doing most of the work because i was a small business, then i noticed that when i wasn’t fixing holes for almost free i was treated differently.I attended Calvary Chapel of tri cities Washington for twenty years and the friendships had no depth. People used to give me dirty looks when i said show me a pastor that doesn’t cuss and i will show him a screw gun. I have tried to be friends with the preacher and it’s just phony! I am not wired that way and even my old partying friends were better to be around.everytime i got close to the pastor i got really weird vibes from him like he didn’t like me for some reason.Twenty years of that crap was enough! What I saw with Calvary was a dictatorship and I won’t put up with that.if someone asked about the money he would snap back and say what do you want to know for? Sarcastic! I know we can’t quit the church because we are the church.There is something about being in leadership that I see change people in a bad way. I don’t know if I will attend so called church anymore. The southern baptist convention is another thing that really irritates me. They want contracts signed for church memberships! I know that when I got saved I then became a member of the body of Christ and not by some man made crap! I want to read part two of your story.Take care!
I am 64 close to your age.
There is a root of bitterness springing up inside of us towards man. God woke me up seven hours after I messaged you with heavy conviction. Our human nature wants to say that we are done with God but that’s what the enemy wants. I have been praying for both of us that God would yank the bitterness out of us by the roots! If you were really born of the spirit you will get the chastening which is a hug from God because he loves us. I have to say when I prayed with a friend for salvation at 17 years old it was probably a false conversion, just lip service.When I was thirty three years old I was driving to work and got nailed by the Holy Spirit and was truly born again.Thats what satan wants is false conversions because they are deceived. I read part two last night and I have seen the things you said happen to people. Men’s traditions are like doctrine of demons. I am sorry that satan has been attacking us but it’s going to happen when we are effectively touching others by our witnessing and teaching. I will continue to pray for you and your family and ask for Gods will in your lives and mine!
After reading Kluver’s message, I sent him a short reply:
Thank you for the blog fodder. Now fuck off.
Kluver replied:
Hey preacher boy i totally understand how screwed up the independent baptist church is and that’s what they do is brainwash people. I have seen it destroy marriages and they prey upon people who want to please god and they just use em up and kick them to the curb. For some stupid reason pastors think they need to follow the early church in acts and that was a communist outfit.just because these bastards messed with your life from the time you were young don’t let that stop your relationship with god. I have seen the corrupt so called church congregations and I hate it. You can use all the foul language you want to make up for all anger you have. I know I would! If you are truly born again then the chastening won’t be very comfortable and if you don’t get your head out of your ass god just might take his protective hand off of your life! That’s all I got to say!
One more thing. If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps the loudest just got hit! Telling me to fuck off was your yelp! You are mild compared to the Harley riders I share Jesus with. I just don’t take too much shit from people and for some reason I hope you will get right with the lord!
End of quotes
As readers can see, Kluver is on the outs with organized Christianity. He’s had some bad experiences, and this has, rightly so, affected his view of Christian churches and preachers. What perplexes me is his attack on me personally. What is it about me that irritates him so? As is typical with zealots and apologists, Kluver has read very little of my writing. And this has led him to make all sorts of errant assumptions about my life. Kluver wrongly thinks I was always an IFB preacher. I was not. I left the IFB church movement in the 1980s. I wish the Kluvers of the world would take the time to read my autobiographical work. Doing so would hopefully result in more nuanced and thoughtful interaction with them. Instead, I get the comments and emails featured in this post.
Not that it will matter. Kluver thinks I am saved, lost, headed for Heaven, headed for Hell, under God’s chastisement, or fixing to get chastised by God. Kluver didn’t contact me to gain a better understanding of my story. He’s on a mission from his God, and I am his “target.” Typically, I tell such people to fuck off, but, in Kluver’s case, I thought readers might find his comments and my responses instructive.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Last week, an Evangelical man named Danny Kluver left an innocuous comment on one of my posts. Afterward, he contacted my wife on Facebook. Evidently, Kluver thought doing so was appropriate. Perhaps he thought his God was directing him to contact Polly. Regardless, she is off-limits. Want to set me straight? Want to share what God has laid upon your heart? Want to try to reclaim me for Jesus? Then contact me directly.
What follows is Kluver’s message. My response is indented and italicized.
If we are truly born again we cannot quit the church because we are the church. You can walk away from the lord and be miserable if you are truly born again just as a non believer that thinks they are born again and can’t understand why they are miserable.
I was a born again Christian (as if there is any other) for most of my adult life. I pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years. I was in every way a follower of Jesus Christ. Yet, thirteen years ago, I divorced Jesus and publicly declared I was an atheist. According to Kluver, it impossible for a Christian to leave the faith — once saved, always saved. No matter what I say, no matter how I live my life, I am still a Christian.
Kluver believes that I surely must be “miserable.” Evidently, one cannot have a happy, satisfying life without Jesus. Ponder this thought for a moment. According to Kluver’s theology, the vast majority of the human race is miserable. Only those who believe as Kluver does are happy.
I have been where Bruce is or was and Hebrews twelve verses seven and on confirms the truth about someone.
Kluver doesn’t know me, so how could he possibly know where I am or where I was?
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Previously, Kluver said that I was still a Christian, but now he says that the measure of true faith is chastisement by God. In other words, Kluver can’t make up his mind whether I am a Christian. Is God chastising me? If so, that means I am a Christian. How could Kluver possibly know whether God is whipping me? Perhaps my difficulties and suffering are the results of “life.” Shit happens. No God needed.
God has answered every one of my prayers over the last twenty five years and you and your family have been my first and foremost prayers!
Bullshit.
Praying for others is my spiritual gift and I wasn’t sure what it was until I asked God to confirm it. We all have these gifts if we are born again and I believe one of yours is your heart for children.
More bullshit. According to Kluver, Polly and I have spiritual gifts, one of which is a “heart for children” (whatever the hell that means).
Kluver seems to have a hard time “discerning” whether I am a born-again Christian. He tells me “once saved always saved,” and then he tells me that “chastisement” is the measure by which one determines whether he is a Christian. And here he tells me that that having “spiritual gifts” is a sign of the new birth. So many salvation boxes to check. What’s next, circumcision?
take care and god bless you and your family!
*sigh*
What stood out most to me was that Kluver showed no interest in Polly’s spiritual welfare (outside of recognizing the obvious: she loves children). She was just a means to an end. You see, I am the big prize here, not Polly. She is just a garden variety unbeliever, hardly worth Kluver’s effort. No big reward in Heaven for reclaiming a lowly ex-preacher’s wife.
Polly’s thoughts on Kluver? Who the fuck is this guy? 🙂 Yes, the mild-mannered, reserved Polly Gerencser can be provoked to use the F word. Kluver should immediately fall on his knees and repent. His boorish behavior caused Polly to sin. And since she is still a born-again Christian, Kluver, the great prayer warrior he is, caused a weaker sister to stumble. Either that or Polly has little tolerance for Christian assholes these days. 🙂
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
