Over the weekend, I received the following email from a Christian woman named Alicia. All spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original. My response follows. Alicia means well, so I do want to extend grace to her in my response.
Hi Bruce,
I just love you. I bet you were an awesome pastor. (And your wife looks absolutely lovely.) I am a believer and I love Tim Mill’s site and your site.
I am not sure what Alicia means by saying “I just love you.” I tend to bristle when Christians tell me that they love me, knowing how “love” is used to manipulate people or as an evangelism tool. Alicia doesn’t know me, so she is not in a position to “love” me. Maybe she used the word in a colloquial sense.
I will leave it to former parishioners to say whether I was an awesome pastor. I humbly tried my best to minister to other people. Whether that qualifies as “awesome” is for others to decide. I do know that there are former parishioners who don’t think I am “awesome.” If these people saw me in a crosswalk, they would probably speed up and try to run me over. ‘Tis the nature of the ministry. You can’t be all things to all people.
Several months ago, I was interviewed by Tim Mills. Over 82,000 people have viewed the interview.
I find it so interesting to see how real believer’s minds change. I kinda get the textual and philisophical reasons why folks deconvert. But what I don’t get is when you guys say that there is no such thing as sin. Well, I do get it. It’s because you guys never wallowed in it yourselves. You actually walked the walk so your consciences are clear and your souls aren’t dinged up from it. You just feel like you’ve been bamboozled by religion.
Sin is a religious construct used by clerics to induce guilt and fear. Properly abused by preaching and teaching on “sin,” congregants are then offered a “solution” for their sin — Jesus. Of course, Jesus is only found in churches that preach Biblical truth — or so preachers say, anyway. Offered forgiveness, once accepted, church members are expected to be faithful attendees and tithers. Preaching up sin is a way for preachers to maintain their hold on congregants, and, most of all, keep the money flowing.
As a humanist, I believe in good and bad behavior — not sin. Many normal, healthy human behaviors are considered “sins” by Christians. People go through life feeling fearful and guilty over just being human. This is particularly true when it comes to sexual behavior.
Trust me when I say that I have done a lot of “sinning” in my lifetime. My religion taught me that I daily sinned in thought, word, and deed, committing sins, according to my pastors, of commission and omission. This thinking led to a lot of fear and guilt. I was worried that the judgment of God was nigh, and that if I didn’t stop sinning God might kill me.
Today, I live a much simpler life. No more fear or guilt, no worries about chastisement or judgment. My goal on any given day is to be a good man, living according to the humanist ideal. (Humanist Manifesto) And when I fail, I do my best to apologize and make restitution.
Well,,Lemme tell you, as a prodigal. THERE IS SIN. I walked away from God and walked in sin and it traumatized me. (Don’t let a Dr. prescribe an antidepressant. They will fry your brain worse than a street drug.) Anyhow,… When I came back to God and read the Bible again…talk about feeling Bamboozled. What a B-Slap! Over and over that Book warns us not to sin so we don’t hurt ourselves and others.
I can’t speak to Alicia’s experiences, but I don’t view myself as a prodigal. I am a truth-seeker. Fifteen years ago, my studies and experiences showed me that the central claims of Christianity are false. Prodigals are people who return to that which they left behind. How could I possibly do so? If Christianity is untrue, what is there for me to go back to? That ship has sailed.
You”re in therapy cuz you were sinned against so horribly as a child. Your precious mother was sinned against and so traumatized. ( Lord only knows what you saw and dealt with as a Pastor.) And as i said…my own sins traumatized me.
I am in therapy for a lot of reasons — childhood trauma being one of them. However, it would be wrong to pin my deconversion on trauma alone. I’m not an atheist because my step-grandmother sexually molested me, nor am I an atheist because of countless other childhood traumas. Sure, these events shaped me psychologically and affected how I engage the world I live in, but my deconversion rests primarily on intellectual reasons, not emotional ones.
I hope you don’t regret too much your time as a pastor. I”m sure you hedged a lot of folks from pain.\
The only thing I regret is spending so much of my life believing a lie. That said, I thoroughly enjoyed being a pastor. There are certain aspects of the ministry I don’t miss, but loving and caring for people? Preaching and teaching? Ministering to the least of these? I would be less than honest if I didn’t admit that I miss these things. Maybe I need to start an atheist church. 🙂
Forgive me if I seem like I”m talking church talk. I really am approaching it from a psychological standpoint.
The problem with approaching my story from a “psychological standpoint” is that Alicia is not qualified to do so, and neither are countless other Christians who take this approach with me.
My Contact page says:
I know you stayed at a Holiday Inn last night, but you are not a medical professional, so please do not send me unsolicited medical or psychological advice. I am not interested — ever.
If you are an Evangelical Christian, please read Dear Evangelical before sending me an email. If you have a pathological need to evangelize, spread the love of Jesus, or put a good word in for the man, the myth, the legend named Jesus, please don’t. The same goes for telling me your church/pastor/Jesus is awesome. I am also not interested in reading sermonettes, testimonials, Bible verses, or your deconstruction/psychological evaluation of my life. By all means, if you feel the need to set me straight, start your own blog.
I make it clear that I am not interested in receiving medical or psychological advice — ever. I see a team of doctors on a regular basis. I see a psychologist weekly. I am well-cared for. That’s why I ask people to NOT send me medical or psychological advice. How hard can it be for people to respect my wishes?
Anyhow, please don’t feel the need to respond. I know you are a busy dude. And this topic is treading borderline for you.
Not treading, past the line. I know you mean well, so I am giving you a pass this round. In the future, when someone you don’t know says “These are my boundaries,” believe them.
I wanna say God Bless You, but I don’t want to offend.
So I”ll be more invasive and just say HUGE HUGS to you and your wife.
There is no God, so I am not concerned about his “blessing” in the least. I have much to be thankful and grateful for, but God plays no part in my life. I give credit to whom credit is due, and God ain’t done squat for me. How can he? He is a mythical being.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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What is it with these people that leads them to lack respect for others? I can imagine them ignoring any and every sign, order and direction in every scenario, out of blind, blithering arrogance.
I find it tperplexing the writer makes all sorts of assumptions about you based on what you explain about your experience. It seems rather intrusive of her. I do believe as the previous commenter mentions that there’s a lot of arrogance involved.
Alicia does mean well. But it is the well meaning of someone who can’t understand that what she is saying is somewhat offensive. Because cheery proselytizing doesn’t make it any less boundary crossing.
Hi Alicia, your greeting, ‘Hi Bruce’ and four “compliments” in the first sentence…..well, I’ve got the perfect adjective for them. It’s ‘smarmy.’ Your Merriam-Webster dictionary definition is, ‘smug, ingratiating, false earnestness.’ And our Oxford Languages dictionary defines it as, ‘ingratiating, wheedling, insincere and unctuous.’……fits your email to Bruce perfectly methinks. Give up, my dear, as BJW says, commenting on another post, don’t bother. Bruce will win hands down!!! (Not that some of us reprobate hellbound sinners here wouldn’t secretly enjoy the exhanges and know you’d soon be creeping away, tail between your legs like thousands of boundary-crossing fundies have done before you.)
smarmy is a perfect word for these frauds.
“I wanna say God Bless You, but I don’t want to offend.”
Zoe: But you said it anyway.
The only thing these cultists mean when they say “I love you” is that they are trying to lovebomb you like any other cultist would.
“Love bombing” as Clubschadenfreude mentioned sums it up nicely. While it’s generally true that one catches more flies with honey than with vinegar, we atheists aren’t drawn to the type of honey Christians typically try to use. In fact, we’re repelled by it.
There have been times when I couldn’t bear to hear someone say “I love you” because of how often I have been “lovebombed” (Thank you, CS!) by cultists–and people who were simply trying to manipulate me.
Do folks like “Alicia” really think that we’ll fall to our knees, simpering for Jesus to come into our lives, when total stranger tells us that they, or Jesus, loves us?
I wonder if this kind of response is based on anxiety. It may be easier for Alicia to try to fix Bruce than to ponder why Bruce and people like him exist, and why the number of atheists, humanists, agnostics, and those self-identifying as spiritual and nothing in particular are growing as fast as they are.
Going to a Sigmund Freud therapist is going the wrong way down a one way street. They are lost as geese just as Freud was.
Many like Alicia and David Tea are the Lord trying to reach you before it is too late….
You need to sincerely put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ.
@Revival Fires
I say this a Christian who follows Bruce, not an atheist, you need to get a grip. How do you know it’s the Lord sending these people by to reach Bruce? It’s not working, and wouldn’t almighty God know what would and wouldn’t work? Wouldn’t it be stupid for God to use a method to reach Bruce that he knows is going to fail? Think that through for a moment. Doesn’t Bruce already know what it takes to be saved? He preached it for many many years. If he ever was convinced of Christianity again, he wouldn’t need help getting saved or repenting or whatever. Why can’t my fellow Christian’s stop preaching to people who have clearly and repeatedly told us they don’t want it? Does not Jesus himself instruct us to wipe the dust off our feet and head to the next place if the place we are in doesn’t receive the word?
The Question is Adam is was his heart ever with Jesus? Only God knows the answer to that no one here is an atheist theyre Anti-Christian Anti-theists. Mission is to mock Jesus Christ.
Theyre not mocking Buddha or Allah or Kali or any of the millions of other false demonic idol gods.
Theyre being used by Satan to mock the ONLY WAY to have sin removed through Jesus Christ!
sadly you are very right that this is where we need to shake off the dust and not cast holiness to dogs and swine. I hope Bruce was truly saved. if so he has only lost rewards. but you don’t go from preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and street evangelism to mocking Christ on internet forums and marching in homo parades with guys in their underwear chanting “DEATH TO THE BABIES!” something is clearly wrong there. as in the case of Judas Iscariot who never truly trusted and accepted Jesus.
Lord chooses not give up on him as many like Alicia and Charles and David and Revival send messages that hopefully make him and many others here think.
and I hope you have a heart for the lost because hell is real and many people around you will end up there if they die without Christ and no one will want to see hell for even 1 second!
God Bless
Nice try with using a different name and email address, trying to make everyone think you are someone other than Revival Fires. In other words, you lied. You are the same person who sends me violent, pornographic comments and the same person who harasses me on Facebook. I suggest you clean up your own life before trying to clean up mine.
FYI, I didn’t change my position on abortion overnight. If you had actually read my story, you would know this.
Enjoy this brief respite from being banned, it won’t last.
This Revival Fires has such awful English that it’s inconceivable they could possibly have read the bible and understood it. Then again, if you understand it you realise its shortcomings.
RF, I think that it’s utterly tragic that you believe in a hell-creating god. You worship a fucking monster, believing that your petty little human acts of worship will be sufficient to keep you eternally safe from a maniac.
If your god exists and is as you describe, no one is safe.
Nah, very few here are “ Anti-Christian Anti-theists. Mission is to mock Jesus Christ.” Speaking for myself, I am not anti-Christian here to mock Jesus, I am anti-“Christian asshole” who simply points out the self serving, manipulative, hate filled, judgmental, holier than thou, do it my way or else, god approved bigotry and self righteousness.
You know, like this drivel you posted, where you simply lie,to make your hate inspired point.
If god does exist, I wonder of god face palms every time you post?
David Tee is a name created from whole cloth by a Canadian national who fled the United States and changed his name (not necessarily in that order) to evade a cumulative child support judgment that now exceeds the value of a new car, then preaches from a Bible that he pretends doesn’t denounce him as being “worse than an unbeliever” for failing to support his child.
As an added bonus, his departure from the U.S. helped him avoid the jail time he faced for committing domestic violence against both his former spouses … and that’s just in the U.S. The first reason he listed for not attending his own father’s funeral was an unspecified legal issue in Canada.
Oh, yes, and he is also on wife # 3 as he waxes poetic about how wonderful Biblical marriage guidelines (you know, like how those called to leadership should be “the husband of one wife”) are, and the eternal fate awaiting those who do not follow its precepts.
You’ll forgive me if I think he’s not the role model you believe him to be.
Shake the dust off re Matthew 10:14. Will you abide by the scripture, or will pride and ego rule your day?
I dare say I know Bruce a bit better than Alicia, but I have to agree Bruce was no doubt an “awesome” pastor. Just as I have no doubt Bruce was an “awesome” restaurant manager or truck deliverer. I’m confident in saying this because a player has the same skill set no matter which team for which they are playing. Since Bruce is an “awesome” anti-Pastor, it is a metaphysical certainty he was an “awesome” pastor.
Well I know an activity in which Bruce would be awesome but he has refused to indulge in my fantasy for a long time.
Sigh 😠😒
Alicia’s mail to you really caused me to be sad.
Her comment “ Well,,Lemme tell you, as a prodigal. THERE IS SIN. I walked away from God and walked in sin and it traumatized me” really struck a note with me. It reminded me of the extreme trauma and suffering I endured as a Christian, convinced that the very person I am was an abomination and evil in the eyes of the Christian god.
There is no easy way to explain just how destructive this can be to a person. Being non-binary, and having a sexual orientation that is not church approved, and having been this was since I was very young, led to a lot of pain and self hatred. It give a whole new meaning to denying yourself.
I truly do not think you can comprehend the trauma unless you have lived it. It’s much worse that lusting in your heart over someone, or struggling with anger, or trying to manage an envious spirit, or many of the things Christians see as bad. Much of sin is fleeting and momentary, and is not at the core of your very existence.
Imagine finding out at a very young age that you are an abomination, and nothing you do can change this reality. Imagine your pastor father making sure you knew this was evil, and enduring his use of weaponized prayer to “heal” you. Imagine considering yourself to be a disgustingly vile person who at the core of your being is an abomination. Imagine the futile, pain filed, unanswered prayers of agony asking god to change the very person you actually are. Then, when the one escape you come to eliminating yourself, you then get the added guilt and trauma of not only having suicidal thoughts, but also the sin filled guilt of even considering that as an option.
Yes, sin is traumatizing, and that is a core problem with Christianity. It pretends to focus on love, but instead focuses on guilt and fear. The guilt and fear is indoctrinated into every Christian, and it has a very negative and devastating impact.
In Christianity, god (and Christian’s) doesn’t just love you, instead he loves you in spite of who you are. These are two radically different concepts. The former is simply love, but the latter is a judgmental and qualified love. It is a transactional love which requires you change in order to deserve the love, and if you can’t change, then you are sinful yet again with the added benefit showing you don’t deserve love from this god or his followers.
To Alicia I would say that I too walked away from god, but I also walked away from the manipulative mind fuck called sin. I escaped the sin trauma by realizing it was an evil concept. I can be a good person outside of the confines of christianity. In fact, I have found I can be a better person than could ever have been achieved while,I was a christian.
I have a considerably more … complex? Nuanced? … take than you do. I haven’t walked away from God. I haven’t walked away from my church. I haven’t even walked away from the rule book. I’ve just walked away from comporting myself like the people whose names have become epithets in this group (Revival Fires, the Canadian expat who has taken “name it and claim it” to an extreme, etc.)
Mark Lowry, a Christian comedian and singer (he sings with Bill Gaither and wrote “Mary, Did You Know?”) once had a great take on it. He was diagnosed with ADHD in childhood and talked about how, after so many adults, so many teachers telling him how problematic his hyperactivity was, one day a teacher told him that “God likes hyperactive kids” and he talked about his reaction:
“I had always been told that God loves me. I mean, God is love, that’s sort of what he does. But I had never been told that God liked me. There are plenty of people I love who I don’t necessarily like.” (Audience laughs.) “What? Oh, stop it, you pious gas bags, You know who popped into your head! You’ll cry at their funeral, but you don’t wanna go on vacation with them!”
I find more value in the “like” perspective. “Love” is transactional. “Like” is more … relational? Is that a word? The effect of that relationship on my heart and my psyche is that it molds who I am into someone I like a little more than I did last week.
By contrast, many of my stumbling blocks (some of which have seen me stumble into a locked ward) over the years had their origin in believing I wasn’t properly showing “love” or wasn’t worthy of someone’s “love.” When I made the decision to strike out on my own and move 12 states away when I was a young adult, my mother tried all manner of pragmatic objections to the idea, only to find that I had already considered them and had an answer for them. Instead, she invoked my grandmother, who was dying of cancer at the time. I still left, but I remember sitting on a train for two days straight, staring out the window as my mind repeated “I’m abandoning my grandmother, I’m abandoning my grandmother …” At more than a few scheduled stops, I had to physically grip the armrests to keep from getting off the train and boarding the one going the opposite direction.
30 years later, my mother still relies on that technique to deflect any accountability for everything from guilt-tripping my absence from my cousin’s wedding to manipulating a nurse into violating HIPAA when I was in the hospital; she always says something like “I’m just being a mother. You’re always a mother, you know, you always worry about your kids!” Many of my conversations with my mother feel obligatory. They are pleasant enough conversations, but they feel like an obligation because you “should” call your mother “x” number of times a month. It’s why I prefer social media sometimes – I can interact with people, or not, on my own terms. I “like” – in the truest meaning of the word – the people I interact with on social media. I mourned one FB friend’s passing more than my aunt’s passing (although there’s quite a bit more to that story). I expect I will also mourn when Bruce’s time comes, and I didn’t know who the man was 18 months ago.
I apologize for the TL;DR rabbit trail.
I can’t even imagine how hard that had to be, Sage. Good fundies can’t help people who aren’t in the cookie cutter mold. Oh sure, they can accept pedophilia (they do and minimize it), adultery, gluttony (don’t even care about that), blah blah blah. But not be a cishet* person? All the sudden it’s not a passing sin, but someone whose very existence is deemed evil.
*I actually mean White Christian Nationalist cisgender heterosexual, but hey, the truth would upset them.