Several years ago, I wrote a post titled, Bruce, Your Writing Is Nothing Compared to God’s. This post was a response to an email I received from someone using an admin email account for Fundamental Forums. Here’s what this person first sent me:
Some observations. We have things in common. Not that means much of anything. I see that you enjoying pointing out anecdotal statements expect for when you employ them yourself.
I’ve read some of your website, but I have seen very little that makes you unique and oh how we must be unique. We are both grey. You have me by a few years but who knows how that will end up….. We are both sarcastic. We have both lied and been lied to so many times we can’t honestly blame someone else or adequately defend ourselves as being worthy of followers. I see that you’ve tried that before but you really haven’t given up. You just draw a different crowd now. I imagine just as you once lied to your congregation to gather their approval, you know lie to your current “flock” to gather the same thrill you once had.
It is rather obvious that you enjoy an intellectual battle and you feel as if you’re better at it than anyone else. I’d like to chance to prove you wrong. Do you want to let our “egos” do the talking…… I find it amazing that any intellectual can build a website such as you’ve built, taking pleasure in your accomplishments, as feeble as they are……..at yet fail to recognize the majestic qualities surrounding your life.
If ANY intellectual would honestly compare your website to what God has written all around you…. You must admit that you just can’t compare. Yet, you recognize your own work at the expense of another. So weak and fleeting is your pleasure. Which is really life’s lesson you fail to recognize. Standing “fist clinched” in the face of overwhelming insignificance you possess. You must recognize you are powerless to produce anything lasting and effective by any measure of common sense. Just what good is love if it ends. Just what good is peace if it fails you? You take pleasure in the fleeting moments of your paltry website not considering its inevitable end.
I noticed that you failed to adequately express your hatred for the historical Jesus? Why? Fear? I know, how dare….. whomever….I’m sure you feel contempt rising to your lips or keyboard. I know what I know. If you’ve ever made a real emotional connection with Jesus Christ, it is more than fear. It goes the very root of what you became. So step back, and with unfeigned contempt throw your last ditch hatred at the imaginary…… Can you really do that? Does your intellect fail you?
You can read my original response here.
As is my custom, I let this person know I had publicly responded to his email. Here’s what he had to say in response:
Read your response. I also read the comments from your new followers.
For the record. I didn’t lie to you. This email account is mine. I didn’t spoof anything. The URL’s are different. I respectful appeal to your mistake as a mistake. Don’t let your ego avoid admitting it. [The previous post was corrected to reflect this] Also, I have read much more of your site than you detail. I thought we might have a progress conversation based upon our interactions. It would appear that you’re still a baptist at heart. You prefer your assumptions to what is actually written/said.
When I said you lied, I meant that you lied. What you fail to realize is just how much of an [sic] contemptible man you were to the followers you have now. It would seem you refuse to acknowledge how much of hypocrite you were in your failed attempt to be a “pastor”. I know you live in a fantasy world but you should at least admit that you didn’t have any problem lying to people for decades. What makes you think you’ve got it right now?
You mention how helpful you’ve been to people now… Just another fantasy. If you are wrong, which you are, what makes you believe you’re not lying again? Not that you care. You obviously never have. It is [sic] been “status quo” for you for your entire life. You just exchanged one fantasy for another. I’m just trying to get you to admit your failures. If you really want to get into the details. I’m here.
You missed the point of reference to your creation (website) in comparison to what is around you. Baby steps….
Why do you feel important through your own “creation” attempts in your website and not recognize just how much better…. things are around you? Not calling God down at the moment. I’ll talking about being “self aware”. Do you realize just how weak you are at every level of existence? You don’t need God to understand this. You just need to be honest with yourself. Now go ahead. Tell me how wonderful you are. I suppose that children and grandchildren of you will remember you forever.
As you can see, nothing I said changed this person’s mind. His goal is not to meaningfully interact with me. Instead, he wants to wound me emotionally and psychologically. He is, after all, an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB). Eviscerating people is in their DNA. Just go read the Fundamental Forums Fighting Forum if you doubt my assertion. Note the discussion threads started by treasure_unseen. Over the years, I have engaged thousands of people through this site, via comments, email, and social media. If I had to pick one group of people to be the definition of Christian Assholes, it is IFB pastors, evangelists, missionaries, college professors, and garden variety church members. There’s just something about their beliefs and psychological make-up that turns them into vile, cruel people (and I speak broadly). Granted, I know a number of IFB leaders who are not as I describe here, but I am beginning to think that they are the exception rather than the rule.
When I look at my own life as an IFB preacher, I don’t see a man who was unkind or unloving. I genuinely cared about the people I pastored. I went out of my way to minister to them spiritually and temporally. However, I must also admit that many of my beliefs and my preaching caused psychological harm.
I have long argued that Evangelicalism causes emotional, and, at times, physical harm. It is not a benign religion. I have also argued that Evangelicalism is inherently Fundamentalist. (Please see Are Evangelicals Fundamentalists?) That said, Evangelicalism is a spectrum. On the one extreme, you have people with decidedly liberal/progressive political and theological views. These people are Evangelical in name only, and politically and theologically are much more like mainline Christians than Evangelicals. On the other extreme, we have groups such as the IFB church movement, of which the aforementioned emailer is a member. This end of the spectrum is defined by theological, political, and social rigidity. While this rigidity can be found along the Evangelical spectrum, the IFB church movement is vocal in its demand that True Christians live according to the one true IFB faith.
This rigidity breeds certainty and arrogance, and, unfortunately, it turns people into unloving, unkind assholes. Some of the readers of this blog are former IFB pastors, evangelists, missionaries, and church members. If asked, they can provide countless stories about the ugly nature of the IFB church movement. Many of you have no experience with IFB churches and pastors. I hope, by publicizing this man’s emails, readers can see the ugliness for themselves. This man is not an anomaly, the exception to the rule. He is not, in any way, “unique.” Sadly, men (and women) such as he can be found in countless IFB pulpits and pews all across America. The best thing anyone can do when coming in contact with the IFB church movement is to run!
This is my last post on this man. He has nothing constructive to offer me or the readers of this blog. Slander, lies, and nastiness seem to be his MO, and I, for one, don’t want to spend any more time on such people.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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I have a comment to Fundamental Forums Member: fuck off. He doesn’t deserve prettier language for his rudeness and unkindness. And he will feel completely justified for it. So I say again, dude, fuck off.
(I hope I’m not being too rude but honestly? This is the only thing I would EVER say to this person.)
I think you are being too kind.
That felt good didn’t it? Do you know why Jesus told his disciples to shake the dust off their feet? You may not care but there is a lesson to be learned. Do you know why? It was his followers last message to them. It was a reminder of the dust they would soon become. I know you think you’re smart. I know you think you’re valuable. Ultimately, even you know you’re headed for dust and that fact will prove/show your true value. Rejecting the only message that will bring your any semblance of lasting happiness is a horrible mistake. You have nothing left.
So, you are God’s last message to me? Tell God I ain’t interested. Next time, send a better messenger.
Now, fuck off dude. I’ve got my meaningless, empty, vapid life to live. No time for IFB trolls.
I never said I was God’s last message to you. I don’t want you to find your mistake that quickly. I hope you have many years to consider. You’ve changed your mind before. Maybe you will change it again. Cuss and ridicule me as you please. I’ve heard it all from IFBs before. Its not nothing new to me. Yes. I’m not an IFB. You know this. You keep repeating this error so you don’t have to admit your mistake. Mistake after mistake will look bad for your followers. Maybe they will realize that you taught many people to hate to one’s you now love. What I said was true. You’ve never heard it before because you were just part of tradition. Nothing more. You had a traditional faith that left you empty. You’re still empty with a future full of dust. You admit it. You believe it just ends for you and contrary to common sense…. you’re happy with this. Yeah. Even a 5 year old knows better.
See, this is exactly what I’m talking about. Your entire mode of engagement is abusive, destructive, and entirely counter-productive. You’re just trying to control what Bruce and what the other people who find this blog interesting ARE (in your mind), and then tell them how it IS. Like that’s ever going to work.
To be blunt, you sound like a control-freak. Why are you doing this to yourself? What do you hope to accomplish? Turn yourself into a villain through poor behaviour? Do you not realize that you’re just hurting yourself with these failed attempts at asserting control?
Until you have some time to reflect on that, it’s probably for the best that you’re being prevented from communicating further here. In the meanwhile, there are some subjects on conflict resolution like Gottman’s four horseman model or Glasl’s conflict escalation model that may be of interest to you, assuming you’re receptive to the idea that you could learn more about the subject.
“You have nothing left” and yet, here I am, rather content with my life (despite everything going on in 2020) . You might even describe me as… happy. Whereas you, for all you play at having the very best of intentions, are being a raging asshole; and “fuck off” is really the only sensible response to that.
We’re all going to die? We’ll return to the dust? Our lives will have no value? The last one isn’t true, and the first two happen to everyone. Was that suppose to make me feel… worthless? or guilty? or terrified of my own mortality? Nonsense. The most that can be said for it this: you make me tired.
Your ability to share God’s word in any sort of meaningful fashion is profoundly limited by your lack of empathy and your inability to read the fucking room. You are a poor messenger. Which is precisely why you come off as an asshole, and precisely why the immediate response is, “Fuck off.” Because for those of us who don’t share your beliefs, that’s really the only useful response to what you’re saying to us.
I can prove you wrong right now. Want to know how I know you’re wrong? If the future doesn’t matter, then why are you so hopeful of tomorrow? You wouldn’t be content if you knew today was your last day. You wake up each morning in hopes of another day. Yet, you pretend the inevitable end of those hopes doesn’t matter. Logic fails you.
My dude, literally none of that is true. Your attempt at mind-reading is a failure. Your assessment of my beliefs and my mental state is laughably incorrect. And I’m not pretending anything. You, on the other hand, are pretending you understand me — and you’re hilariously far off the mark.
Which, again, makes you sound like an asshole. You want to tell me how my life is? “Who am I going to believe, you — or my own lyin’ eyes?” Your “insights” ring hollow and your pronouncements are false. So I ask you, again, given that you haven’t the least idea why unbelievers don’t believe and how that lack of belief shapes our lives, why should we respond to any of your sallies with anything other than “Fuck off”?
What do you really have to offer? “Logic”? You haven’t offered any. All you do is assert, assert, assert… and since your assertions don’t reflect any basis in the reality of my existence, there’s no reason to entertain them. Logic is a lovely thing, but perfect logic based on incorrect assumptions leads to incorrect answers. “Logical” does not equal “right”. Nor is it necessarily an indicator of “smart”; an awful lot of perfectly logical logical arguments are profoundly stupid, because they fail to engage human nature.
You can’t make useful argument, because you think you already know everything you need to know about me, when everything you think you know about me is wrong. So why on Earth would I take you seriously?
The future doesn’t matter nearly as much as the present. The here-and-now is where we actually experience life. Tomorrow is another opportunity to experience a different version of the here-and-now, but it in no way negates our current experiences.
I could never fathom why believers think that eternal life is necessary in order to have “meaning.” If anything, eternal life negates meaning and purpose because it’s impossible to ever reach “the point of it all.”
First, I’m not an atheist. Second, you’re rude and unkind to Bruce and don’t deserve a friendly response. Finally, I know all about Christianity too. Did it occur to you that a person that believes in God could think you’re hopeless? Well, you’ve judged me and found me wanting. Same back atcha.
Well. I spoke fondly of what Jesus said and Bob told Jesus to…. well you know what Bob said. You certainly don’t know “all about Christianity”. You’re just kidding yourself. I judge the situation and your words. Nothing more. Tell Jesus I love him the next you talk to him. Appreciate it.
If you don’t mind Bruce, I would like to repeat, admin person has no peace. They think they are sitting in the seat of Moses, proclaiming authority over you and the right in Jesus name to abuse you and those of us who read and participate here.
To not so subtly bring up your family is an intentional attempt to hit you where your greatest gifts are . . . your love for your family. Unforgiveable.
As one of your ‘new followers’ – I visit your site on a daily basis – I want to say how much I get from your posts, Bruce. They’re intelligently written, thought provoking, honest and generous. We’ve never met and probably never will, but from what you write I know you to be a man of integrity and sincerity. You’ve sought after truth, wherever that has led, and have reached a place where you can, finally, be true to yourself. This is all any of us can hope for. Keep going, ignoring those who attack you as a means of peddling their superstition and make-believe God. The truth you offer here is better by far.
I agree with you Bruce. IFB . . . run ->>>>
There is no peace.
Most of the people I knew who were IFB were the teachers and administrators of the Christian school I attended. Most of them these days are ardent Trump supporters, or they are silent about Trump but are vocally anti-BLM, “all lives matter”, “we need God back in all public spaces” types. The Trump supporters are particularly vile, but are those who remain silent better for their refusal to stand up for the oppressed? As a child I was taught to respect these folks as true followers of the moral God; now I see them as morally corrupt. They claim their God is the same yesterday, today, and forever – yes, the same morally corrupt bigoted a$$hole (of course I don’t believe he is real, but they sure do).
“Tell me how wonderful you are. I suppose that children and grandchildren of you will remember you forever.”
typical Christian who needs to be special and be remembered and obeyed by a god. They are rather pitiful in their neediness.
So basically this guy stopped seeking truth, and merely attempts to assert control over it? I do wonder why he thought it’d work. Perhaps he has more success browbeating the people he knows in person? That’s rather unfortunate for them, I guess.
Thanks again, Bruce, for shining a light on villainy like this.
This person is the same arrogant shitbag found by the dozens in every single church I attended as a kid and young adult.
Arrogant, condescending, sanctimonious and foul on a personal level.
Makes a big show every Sunday and is a tyrant to his family all week long.
Oily and unctuous and servile while publicly “worshiping” his god, full of righteous fire at home where the rest of the church can’t see him.
What a complete waste of oxygen.
Ami, you took the words right out of my mouth (then shined them up)!
Ah, Bruce. It is EXACTLY this type of person that you have helped so many of us navigate around. This is the disgusting self-righteous seeking to wound asshole that fits so well within the IFB.
YOU have helped me heal from this sort of abuse. Thank you.
Yeah,I have to agree there. Treasure-trove is simply jealous of Bruce. He even has some feud going with another ‘ brother’s over some doctrinal thing. Oh,what a relief to pass by churches without stepping inside. Just reading T’s posts,you get the idea that he’s an angry and neurotic person. For all his hate-filled proclamations and smug demeanor, I think he wishes he had your life,Bruce. He wants to say you don’t deserve it because you left the fold. And from what I read about your travels to Texas, and other places you pastored at,you were a more sincere Christian at that time than the gun-toting Pat Horner, and those other characters over there,lol. So stow THAT,Treasure_trove.
Once again I am glad I came to the realization that there is no heaven because eternity with people like this would be hell
I don’t plan on approving any more comments from Admin (fundamental forums). I am not going to give him the space to continue to attack me personally and assault the readers of this blog. He’s had his say. We have heard him loud and clear. 🙂
Any further emails from God’s messenger, I will append them to this post. I blocked his access to this site, but I am sure he’ll evade my attempts to silence him. Must speak for God at all costs, right?
If that arrogant prick speaks for God, I’ll lend him Van Gogh’s ear.
Like a lot of these militant Fundagelicals, Treasure-trove/Admin is a legend in his own mind. His alone. He’s one of those narcissistic fanatic types,who loves to find an excuse to pick fights. Every church has at least one of this kind. One or 20, lol.
Bruce, just my two cents- not knowing you personally, but my intuition makes me believe you have always been a good and decent person. And a good and decent person can change their mind on the big cosmic questions that require faith and reason to answer. There is the big mind for these questions, and the regular mind for our everyday stuff, like how we treat people, how we conduct our business and personal affairs, etc. both “minds” use intuition, conditioning, observation/evidence and memory to make the decisions that determine our course in life.
Even as an IFB Pastor, I believe you wanted the best for your parishioners. You once told about living at Indian Lake, a poor area in rural Ohio, and how you got the community involved in activities to help them see some positivity in an otherwise depressing time for many in rural Ohio. This tells me the measure of your character, regardless of what you were preaching from the pulpit at the time. Yes I’m sure you now look back and see that you were unkind to marginalized people, but folks evolve over time, I look back with regret on things I said and joked about when I was a young adult. The past cannot be changed, but the present and future can.
This person seems much more interested in being a provocative accusatory jackass than in having an honest discussion about Christianity, Jesus, the canon of scripture and their origins, etc. As I have said way more times than necessary, I’m a practicing Catholic, who came to my path through my own journey. We all have the right to walk our own path, so long as we are being honest with ourselves, and you have served as an example to me of someone who is walking their own path honestly. I can’t say where mine will lead. I find you refreshing to read because of my own childhood spent in the Assembly of God church, and all the complicated memories that come from it.
I know I’m not alone in valuing your work maintaining this site for all of us to have a place where we can read and post and hopefully learn from each other about the effect of toxic religion on peoples lives.
Looking at ” Admin,” he sounded like Reviled & Fired,down in Grandma’s basement. He sounds quite threatened by this blog, forgetting conveniently that people who believe in Jesus like to scroll here all the time. This ” forum” that the writer has is mostly Americansm. Lots of churches have this as their main doctrine anyway – they just don’t admit it openly. Bullies are always on the prowl for someone to bully,of course. One doesn’t have to act like these characters to be a Christian. I was reading about pastors who are bullies earlier today. I’m glad to see there are writers who denounce these tyrannical types.
Goodness. I’d forgotten about this one. Well, I stand by what I told him earlier: “You make me tired.”
I wrote one more post about this man. You can read it here:
https://brucegerencser.net/2020/09/one-last-email-from-a-fundamental-forums-member/