From 1976 to 1979, I attended Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan, to prepare myself for the ministry. Students were required to attend chapel services every day. Over the course of the three years I spent at Midwestern, I heard many of the big-name Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) preachers preach during chapel. If you were a preacher boy like I was, you wanted to hear these mightily-used-of-God preachers. One such preacher was Ralph Wingate, Jr.
Wingate, the son of a preacher, was a graduate of Midwestern. In 1973, Wingate went to Newington, Connecticut to plant a new church, Emmanuel Baptist Church. The church was wildly successful and this made Wingate a favorite son of Midwestern’s chancellor, Tom Malone.
Wingate, after stumbling upon my blog, used me as a warning, a cautionary tale, in one of his sermons. I learned about Wingate using me as an illustration from a reader who just so happened to be in the service that day. I have spies everywhere! 🙂
What follows is an audio clip of the part of the sermon that mentioned me.
Enjoy!
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Recently, a commenter asked me three questions (slightly edited for grammar):
What if you die and find out you were wrong?
What if you find that Jesus (the true Jesus of course, not the religious/perverted Jesus) is the true God and you simply refused to accept his offer of eternal life?
What will you do?
For the seemingly thousandth time, let me answer these questions.
What if you die and find out you were wrong?
Well, this is most certainly a possibility. I am not infallible, nor do possess all the knowledge that can be known. As I continue to read, study, and understand, I add to my cumulative knowledge. Unfortunately, advanced age and cognitive loss fights against me increasing my knowledge. I do what I can to better my understanding of all that it means to be human. The questioner, of course, is only concerned about me being wrong about her version of Christianity.
As an atheist, I believe life ends the moment my heart stops beating and my brain ceases to function. That’s it, end of story. As such, there is no right-beliefs test after death, no did I believe in the true Jesus, not the religious, perverted Jesus? All I can do while I am among the living is attempt to intellectually, rationally, and honestly understand the world in which I live. For example, I know that most people are to some degree or another religious. Having spent fifty years in the Christian church, twenty-five years in the pastorate, and eight years studying why people are religious, I have come to several reasoned conclusions.
First, all religious belief can be explained from a sociological perspective. Find out where a person was born, who their parents and grandparents are, and what culture they are a part of, and you can determine, for the most part, which religious cult they embrace as the one true faith.
Second, the central tenets of Christianity are irrational. As Michael Mock often says, Christianity doesn’t make sense. Having spent thousands of hours reading and studying the Bible, theology, and church history, I can confidently say that Christianity (in all its forms) is false. Simply put, Jesus died, end of story. Without a miraculous birth, atoning death, and resurrection of Jesus, the God-man from the dead, Christianity is little more than a social club. I see no evidence for Christianity being the one true faith.
I can then confidently say that Christianity is false. Thus, I have no fears or concerns about being wrong about Christianity. The same goes for all the other extant religions humans have concocted throughout the annals of history. Could I be wrong? Sure. I try to live my life according to probabilities. It is probable that I will die within the next twenty years. I have carefully examined the available evidence and concluded that sooner, and not later, death is coming my way. I can confidently say that I will likely be dead before 2036. When it comes to Christianity, after carefully looking at the extant evidence, I have concluded that there is a .000001 percent chance that the Christian God exists and that Christianity is the one true religion.
I suppose this commenter could say, but Bruce, are you willing to risk an eternity in hell, even if the probability is .000001? Yes, I am. The greater question is why Christians do the same. I suspect this commenter believes all religions but hers are false. How can she possibly know this? Has she studied these religions? Shouldn’t she play it safe and embrace ALL religions? Better to cover one’s bases than end up in hell because you failed to choose the one true religion, right? Christians are hypocrites, demanding of me what they are unwilling to do themselves. Why is it that Christians continue to use Pascal’s Wager to evangelize me, when they are not willing, for safety’s sake, to embrace Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Hinduism, or any of the other countless human religions?
What if you find that Jesus (the true Jesus of course not the religious/perverted Jesus) is the true God and you simply refused to accept his offer of eternal life?
The previous answer adequately addresses this question. I am certainly willing to believe IF Christians can convincingly show me that their religious claims are true. Quoting the Bible, giving subjective personal testimonies, or making appeals to nature are not proof. Each one of these evidences can be satisfactorily overturned and rejected. Ultimately, Christianity rests on a foundation of faith, not evidence (Hebrews 11). Christians believe because they want or need to do so. By faith, they believe. And that’s fine — for them. However, I don’t have the requisite faith necessary to believe. I am unwilling to surrender my life to a fictitious God who wrote a supposedly divine book that is actually an offense to modern thinking. Filled with discrepancies, mistakes, and errors, the Bible teaches that there are multiple Gods and ways of salvation. Thousands of religious sects appeal to the Bible as THE source of their beliefs. How is possible that each sect’s beliefs differ from that of others? The Bible says that there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism — one Christianity — yet there are, if truth be told, millions of Christianities, with each believer shaping a God and Jesus in his or her own image.
If the commenter’s God is the one true God and the Bible is said God’s divine message to humanity, why did he write such a confusing, contradictory message? I’ve spent eight years poking holes in the Evangelical Christian narrative, coming to the conclusion that all the Christian sects are right. The Campbellites and Baptists are right. The Calvinists and the Arminians are right. The Catholics and the Lutherans are right. Every sect appeals to the Bible as the foundation of their faith. All of them can PROVE they are right, so I just agree with them. The Bible can be used as proof for almost any and every belief. Again, if God wanted his soul-saving message to be clear, he should have written it in such a way that no one could possibly doubt his words. That the Bible is a hodge-podge of nonsense is convincing evidence for Christianity’s sacred text being a human, not divine text.
What will you do?
Just for fun, let’s assume that I am dead wrong about this commenter’s God, and that when I awake in eternity I find myself standing before the Big Kahuna. What would I say?
Shit, I got that one wrong.
Hey God, why did you write such a contradictory and confusing book? Bad day? Too much to drink?
Hey God, did you see all the good works I did? Surely, my good works outweigh my bad works. After all, I was a Jesus Club® member for 50 years. The way I see it, Lord, is that I spent five-sevenths of my life doing good and believing all the right things. And even now, as an atheist, I do a lot of good works. My good works should at least be enough to get me a log cabin on the outskirts of Heaven. Surely Lord, you value good works far more than right beliefs.
I have no worries about what I will do because worrying about fictional things is a waste of time. This would be like me worrying that Daenerys Targaryen (Game of Thrones) might send her dragons to turn me into a roasted wiener. Not going to happen. Life is short. I choose to worry about things that matter, things rooted in reality. I have no interest in wasting my time wondering about whether I am saved or lost or whether my beliefs will land me a room at Trump’s Heavenly Hotel®.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
I promised I would stop responding to Fake Dr. David Tee/TheologyArcheology/David Thiessen/TEWSNBN in 2022. So far, I have been a good boy, but today I plan to break my promise (much like my promise that I will put the toilet seat down) so I can share with readers Tee’s latest post about me and my friend Ben Berwick (who blogs at Meerkat Musings). Since January 1, 2022, Tee has written twenty-four posts about the two of us. Twenty-four! What follows is his latest:
BG had an article the other day about the supposed war on deconstructing one’s evangelical faith. You can read it here if you are interested. We are not [yet Tee responded to it]. The article is filled with the same old false teaching that has been around since Christ walked the earth.
….
We have had some thoughts on our minds [stop looking at porn, David] for some time now. They concern BG & MM [still too lazy to type out our names]. You will notice that we may only link to an article they wrote as a reference point. We do not analyze their words that much anymore [did you ever analyze our words? I mean thoughtful, critical analysis?].
There is no point to as all we get in response is to be called liars [if it walks, talks, and acts like a liar, it is a liar] and that they did not say what we recorded them as saying. We do not need the hassle [yet, you keep writing about us].
There was a time we did try to understand BG’s story [bullshit] per his public wish. But we found that to be a wasted effort. He really doesn’t want anyone to understand his story [most people understand my story just fine], he just wants to receive sympathy, attention, and play the victim card [and money and blow jobs too :)].
There is nothing you can do for such people. We are sad [no you are not] that he made his decision to walk away from the faith and all we can do is knock the dirt off our sandals fathered from his website [who had sex with my website and fathered, uh, dirt?] and walk away [promise?]. We hesitate to do that because he is already in enough spiritual trouble, we do not want to add to it. [Tees fails to understand that his behavior actually makes me think less of Jesus and Christianity, as do all such Christian Assholes. Do better, David, do better. Start with the fruit of the Spirit.]
Be careful when you encounter those who once believed and now do not. They will trample pearls beneath their feet and cause you great harm if you are not careful [😂😂😂].
You may question your faith if you listen to their words [that’s the idea]. Don’t listen to them as they are nothing but false teachers and false prophets [yes, but are our words true?]. They do not bring you anything from God [of course not, we are non-Christians] nor will they help you in your spiritual growth [we will, however, help you get free from the Evangelical cult].
They will help you walk away from your faith if you let their seeds of destruction get planted in your souls and minds. We watched Bart Ehrman debate Craig Evans once and the former did not come to debate.
He came to evangelize the faithful away from the faith [this is a lie, or, at best, a personal opnion]. That is what BG and other atheists will do if you let them [resistence is futile]. They are ready to evangelize you away from salvation with their lies and untruths [and with Satan’s help, we will prevail].
Don’t let it happen. Stick with [my Fundamentalist version of] the truth and do not deter from it. Do not listen to those who do not believe but give them the truth in love. They are the ones who are lost and deceived, do not join them.
They are the ones who made the mistake and the wrong decision, not you [sounds like Tee is having a crisis of faith].
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Vaughn Longanecker, a vocal Evangelical Christian from Oregon, sent me an email today. Longanecker, showing no curiosity, read all of one post on this site — Sixteen Reasons Why I am Not a Christian — before he fired off an email to me. Not meant to be a lengthy thesis on the reasons why I am no longer a Christian, I wrote:
What follows are sixteen reasons WHY I am not a Christian. There are many more reasons than these, but this list should satisfy those who continue to prod and poke, trying to find the REAL reason(s) I am no longer a Christian.
I no longer think the Bible is a God-inspired text.
I no longer think the Bible is an inerrant text.
I no longer think Jesus is God.
I no longer think Jesus was virgin-born.
I no longer think Jesus turned water into wine, walked on water, healed the sick, raised the dead, or performed any of the other miracles the Bible says he did.
I no longer think Jesus resurrected from the dead. Jesus lived and died, never to be seen again.
I no longer think there is a Heaven or a Hell.
I think the belief that God will torture all non-Christians in Hell for all eternity is repugnant, abhorrent, revolting, repulsive, repellent, disgusting, offensive, objectionable, cringeworthy, vile, foul, nasty, loathsome, sickening, nauseating, hateful, detestable, execrable, abominable, monstrous, appalling, insufferable, intolerable, unacceptable, contemptible, unsavory, and unpalatable.
I think the Bible shows a progression of belief from polytheism to monotheism.
I think the Bible teaches multiple plans of salvation.
I think much of the so-called history found in the Bible is fictional.
I think the Bible God is an abhorrent, violent deity, one I would not worship even if I believed it existed.
I think science best explains the natural world.
I no longer think humans are sinners.
I think humanism provides a moral and ethical basis for life.
I see no evidence for the existence of the Christian God; thus I am an atheist.
These reasons are based on a lifetime spent studying the Bible and studying the textual, historical, and moral underpinnings of Christianity. These studies led me to conclude that the Christian God is a fiction, as is much of the Christian narrative.
Evidently, Longanecker didn’t like this post, so he decided to ignore the statements on the contact page:
If you are an Evangelical Christian, please read Dear Evangelical before sending me an email. If you have a pathological need to evangelize, spread the love of Jesus, or put a good word in for the man, the myth, the legend named Jesus, please don’t. The same goes for telling me your church/pastor/Jesus is awesome. I am also not interested in reading sermonettes, testimonials, Bible verses, or your deconstruction/ psychological evaluation of my life. By all means, if you feel the need to set me straight, start your own blog.
If you email me anyway — and I know you will, since scores of Evangelicals have done just that, showing me no regard or respect — I reserve the right to make your message and name public. This blog is read by thousands of people every day, so keep that in mind when you email me whatever it is you think “God/Jesus/Holy Spirit” has laid upon your heart. Do you really want your ignorance put on display for thousands of people to see? Pause before hitting send. Ask yourself, “how will my email reflect on Jesus, Christianity, and my church?”
and send me the following email. My response is indented and italicized. All spelling and grammar in the original.
Are you in the least a Nicodemus, wanting to know how to “see the Kingdom of God”/be saved/have eternal life/go to heaven? “…you must be born again”. (Jn. 3:3) Before you answer that answer this question, “how much did you have to do with your first birth? Correct answer, “nothing” (only answer that can truthfully be right). How much does any person have to do with their second birth?” Yes, it is the same answer, the only correct answer, the only answer that God’s plan of salvation and in creation that is possible, “nothing”.
Of course, I was a Nicodemus — a man who was born from above at the age of fifteen, called to preach a few weeks later, and pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years. I am not sure what point Longanecker is trying to make? That I “saved” myself? Nothing could be farther from the truth, as anyone who knew me would testify. That said, I would be more than happy to engage Longanecker in a discussion about what the Bible actually says about “salvation.” There are numerous plans of salvations in the Bible.
So where does that leave you with your supposed ability to have become a Christian on your “think”/belief/abilities, and your abilities to supposedly nullify, reverse, make something that God did as though it never occurred. For this to have occurred you would have to be able to do what God has done, make planets, DNA, prophecy, (try the challenge of Is. 40-46, if you have any abilities or wisdom that are equal to Almighty God, prophecy), incarnate from deity, die and come back to life.
Longanecker believes once a person is saved he can’t lose his salvation. Thus, the only possible answer is that I never was a Christian. If God really “saved’ me, it is impossible for me to deconvert. This kind of thinking reveals a lack of imagination of Longanecker’s part and a lack of understanding of the various soteriological systems. Arminians, for example, have no problem understanding my loss of faith.
Here’s what I know, I once was saved and now I am not. That Longnecker can’t square my story with his theology is his problem, not mine.
So, are you greater than God, you who make yourself out to be god, knowing what is true and what is not ?
Welp, there is no God, so, yes I am greater than God. Now, I don’t call myself God. That title is reserved for my wife. I worship her, especially when she feeds me. We do, however, believe in the Devil. Everytime our two youngest grandchildren, ages two and four, come over, we are reminded that the devil walketh about seeking what he may break and love. 🙂
You who got what being a Christian so wrong, we should listen to what you “think”, more than that which has been historically, archeologically and spiritually to be true, we should listen to what you “think”, over that which not just Nicodemus knew was obvious but millions upon billions of both “Christian” and pagans and secular and atheist and those from other religious persuasions that Jesus wisdom and miracles have effected billions around the world for their worldly benefit and eternal life.
I am just one man with a story to tell. All I can do is share what I think. Unlike Longanecker, I have an open mind, a willingness to understand and embrace the stories of others, even if they are different from mine. Longanecker, based on a quick search I did on his unique name, busily travels the Internet’s highways and byways preaching his peculiar version of Christianity. All I do is write. Longanecker came to this site of his own volition. He chose to read my writing. He could have meaningfully engaged me on one or more articles, but he chose not to. Instead, he disparagingly preached AT me. What did he hope to gain by taking this masturbatory approach?
Perhaps, Longanecker will read this post and respond. Perhaps he has a test I could take that would show me that understanding of Christianity is every bit as comprehensive as his. Time for a gospel dick showdown.
Bruce, John, and Vaughan see who knows more about Christianity
You don’t need to “rethink”, you need to repent of all your “thinking”. (Mt. 4:17)
Evidently, in Longanecker’s world, “thinking” is a bad idea. What he wants me to do is ignore what I “know” and just faith-it. Sorry, that ship has sailed. I’ve been to the Promised Land. Why would I ever want to return to the garlic and leeks of Egypt? Evangelicalism has nothing to offer me — literally. Well, I do miss the potlucks, but outside of that, Evangelicalism is the ghost of Christmas past.
Longanecker’s email has nothing to do with me. He has a pathological need to be “right.” What better way to fill this need than seeking out non-Evangelicals, atheists, and agnostics and preach AT them, letting them know they are w-r-o-n-g.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
“Let’s say our faith was like a sweater. Yarn: our ideology. Weave: our tradition. This is how you wear it. Don’t change it, even if the sweater doesn’t keep you warm any more. Even if it’s too tight or the threads cut off oxygen at your neck. This is the way. Doubts and questions mean disrespect, and those are the seeds of evil, so just don’t.
But over the years, a thread comes loose and you try to just tuck it in alongside the others. You can cover the fraying up. You can pull the thread and think, ‘Oh, I don’t need this one, because it is harmful to me; it’s itchy and gets caught on corners.’ It comes out easily. And the sweater stays together. Then you pull another, and another, and soon you find all the yarn is gone. You have deconstructed the entire thing. You are left naked. People gawk and run away, and you feel two opposing things: the freedom of glorious nakedness, and the fear of the same.”
— Lisa Gungor, writing in her memoir The Most Beautiful Thing I’ve Seen
Deconstruction in an Evangelical context is the reexamination of one’s beliefs. The reexamination often leads to changed theological/social/political beliefs. Sometimes it leads to an abandonment of Christianity altogether. Not everyone who deconstructs becomes an atheist or an agnostic, but many do. Others move on to kinder, gentler expressions of faith or embrace paganism, spiritualism, or a plethora of other religions. And yes, some people, after carefully reexamining their beliefs, remain Evangelicals.
I follow and read over one-hundred Evangelical blogs and websites, along with listening to a handful of Evangelical podcasts. (I wade in the sewer so you don’t have to.) This allows me to stay in the Jesus loop, even though I haven’t been a Christian for fourteen years. I have noticed an increasing number of sermons, articles, podcasts, and blog posts about Evangelicals who are deconstructing. Most of these media points take the approach that doubts and questions are fine — deconstruction — as long as people remain in the church. Those who exit stage left are attacked and mocked. How dare they leave Jesus! How dare they stop attending church and putting money in the offering plate — they never, of course, say the offering part. How dare they come to different conclusions from those of their pastors. How dare they abandon the one true faith — Evangelical Christianity.
All sorts of excuses are given for why people deconstruct: poorly taught, wrong beliefs, negative church experiences, falling out with church leaders, secret desire to sin, and a number of other excuses. What these Evangelical preachers and talking heads never do is take deconstruction (deconversion) stories at face value. Instead of asking the people deconstructing why they are doing so, these Evangelical gurus impute motives on doubters they do not hold. In other words, they are dishonest interlocuters.
Recently, Evangelical megachurch pastor Matt Chandler had this to say about deconstruction (via Neil Carter’s blog):
You and I are in a day and age where deconstruction and the turning away from and leaving the faith has become some sort of sexy thing to do. I contend that if you ever experience the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, actually—that that’s really impossible to deconstruct from. But if all you ever understand Christianity to be is a moral code, then I totally get it.
Leaving aside the quibbling over semantics, his posture towards the topic made me bristle for the same reasons it did most other exvangelicals: There is nothing sexy about deconstruction. It is a gut-wrenching, disorienting experience, and no one who has walked through it would ever portray it in the glib, shallow way Chandler did.
He rounded up the usual suspects in his effort to invalidate the process, assuring his listeners that people only leave because they didn’t really understand their faith correctly. Surely they are rejecting some other form of Christianity, most likely a shallow, legalistic version gleaned from a superficial reading of the Bible. Or maybe somebody was mean to them, yada yada. I’ll spare you my rants about those theological scapegoats today.
What gets me most is how naturally Chandler falls back on peer pressure as the culprit. Like we’re back in youth group again. He’s convinced people are only doing this because everyone else is doing it and they want to be cool, too.
I wonder which of our tactics gave us away? Was it the way we enroll our children in weekly group lessons aimed at convincing them to disbelieve in his religion, teaching them songs to go along with each topic? Or maybe it’s the weekend-long retreats where we all hold each other, crying around a campfire as we each talk about how our rejection of faith has made our lives complete?
Chandler, of course, is saying that “real” Christians never, ever walk away from Jesus. Thus, those who do weren’t “real” Christians to start with; that we had some sort of defective, dead faith. However, our stories suggest that Chandler — let me speak bluntly — is full of shit. I know countless former Evangelicals who held orthodox Evangelical beliefs; people who devotedly and unreservedly followed after Jesus Christ; people who gave their time, money, and talents to the advancement of the Kingdom of God; people whose lives were shining examples of what it meant to be a follower of the one true God. Don’t believe our stories? Ask the people who knew us best: our families, friends, and fellow church members, if we were born-from-above, Holy Ghost-filled, adopted children of the Triune God. Ask them about how we lived our lives. Ask them about our devotion to the things of God. I know as far as my life is concerned, I was a real Christian, and critics who suggest I never will search in vain for anyone who knew me who will say that knew I was an unbeliever.
John Cooper, the lead singer for the Evangelical Christian rock band Skillet, took matters a step further when he said:
I don’t even like calling it deconstruction Christian. There is nothing Christian about it. It is a false religion.
And for all those formerly Christian people who have tried to tell all these young folks that they think they found a third way. Their third way is this: It’s OK if you’re into Jesus, just don’t be into the Bible. I’m here to tell you young folks, there is no such thing as loving Jesus but not loving his Word.
A false religion? Child, please. What’s with all the hysteria over deconstructing Evangelicals? Here’s what I see and hear: fear. Young adults, in particular, are exiting Evangelical churches in record numbers. More and more people are saying they are atheists or agnostics or NONES — people who are indifferent towards organized Christianity. Powerless to stem the tide (and God seems quite indifferent), Evangelicals such as Chandler and Cooper lash out at the people who dare to say the emperor has no clothes.
Public critiques from evangelicals regarding deconstruction are on the rise over the last few years. Do you ever wonder why? I mean, what could be the harm in thinking critically about matters of faith? Wouldn’t any denomination or church movement encourage such thinking as a means for people to grow in their faith? In this article, I will provide two reasons why evangelicals hate deconstruction and why they continue to call it “dangerous”.
First, it’s important to understand what it means for someone to “deconstruct” their faith. To be clear, religious deconstruction is not the same thing as philosophical deconstruction (which was espoused by postmodern philosopher Jacques Derrida.) Religious deconstruction is the tearing down of theological presuppositions and beliefs in order to reconstruct beliefs under a new paradigm. That new paradigm does not have to be a different denomination or religion, but it often results in a significant change.
Usually, doubt is the catalyst that demonstrates the need for deconstruction. Therefore, all deconstruction is built upon the foundation of doubt. This is an important idea for people who experience doubt to understand. Doubt is healthy and doesn’t necessarily lead to a weakening of one’s faith. There are many people in evangelicalism who begin to doubt and become atheists as a result. This is largely because evangelicalism discourages doubt when they should see it as an opportunity. Instead of becoming an atheist, which is a huge leap from doubt, the individual should consider going through a journey of deconstruction. Deconstruction is the only way that harmful beliefs can be dealt with religiously. However, deconstruction cannot happen in isolation. It must be followed by reconstruction.
Oftentimes missing from the critique that evangelicals raise about deconstruction is the reconstruction journey that often follows. Reconstruction is the rebuilding of religious beliefs upon the new paradigm that the individual has established. Reconstruction allows the individual to find their own beliefs instead of what has been spoon-fed to them most of their religious life. The fact that reconstruction is rarely, if ever, mentioned in evangelical conversations bolsters the fact that they fail to understand the basic concepts of deconstruction on the whole.
….
There is nothing inherently wrong with deconstruction. It is a process that I would recommend to anyone who wants to develop critical thinking and have faith that is their own and not something that was simply handed to them. Those who deconstruct often find a new sense of enlightenment (no pun intended) that may result in some grief over the faith they knew, but that ultimately grows into excitement about the process.
My only quibble with English is over his suggestion that atheism shouldn’t be the end game. Don’t throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. (Atheists ask, what baby?) Much like the Evangelicals he rightly criticizes, English says that “faith” is the desired outcome — just not the Evangelical version of faith. English says:
There are many people in evangelicalism who begin to doubt and become atheists as a result. This is largely because evangelicalism discourages doubt when they should see it as an opportunity. Instead of becoming an atheist, which is a huge leap from doubt, the individual should consider going through a journey of deconstruction.
English implies that the path from Evangelicalism to atheism doesn’t involve reconstruction. He really misses the mark on this point. As a man who was an Evangelical pastor for twenty-five years and who is now an atheist, I can say that the past fourteen years post-Jesus have been one long reconstruction project. And I suspect most Evangelicals-turned-atheists who read this site would say the same. Shouldn’t the goal of deconstruction be to follow the path wherever it leads? English seems to have a desired outcome — faith — in mind rather than encouraging people to embrace their questions and doubts wherever they may lead. In my case, the path has led to atheism, humanism, and socialism. I, for one, took a serious, good-faith look at progressive Christianity, but I found it to be intellectually unsatisfying. And, quite frankly, the progressive, liberal churches in this area are dead as a hammer. Filled with old people (of which I am one) and reticent to change, the churches my wife and I attended had nothing that said to us that this is the place we want to call home. We found sleeping in on Sundays and watching football with my sons far more appealing than incoherent sermons and unsingable music. (Looking at you Episcopals). Nice people, to be sure, but we found these churches unappealing, to say the least.
Punch “evangelical deconstruction” in a Google search field and you will find a plethora of articles, blog posts, sermons, and podcasts about deconstruction. I looked at dozens of these sites. Some of them raged against deconstruction, while others encouraged people to deconstruct/reconstruct as long as they remained Christians. Not one site saw atheism, agnosticism, or humanism as a desired outcome. Why is that? What are the underlying factors that keep these prognosticators from seeing that unbelief might be a desirable outcome? Shouldn’t happiness and peace, along with meaning and purpose, be the ultimate goal? I wonder if some of these folks still believe in the existence of Hell or think that meaning and purpose can only come through faith? If so, how is this any different from what Evangelical preachers are saying? Maybe people such as English will stop by and explain.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Recently, Evangelical pastor Greg Locke held a book burning service that led to consigning to flames of a metaphorical Hell the Harry Potter and Twilight books, along with other books deemed Satanic. School boards and public libraries are receiving increasing numbers of requests to remove “offensive” books from their institutions — especially books that present LGBTQ people, premarital sex, atheists, and socialism in a positive light. Most of the people objecting to these books are Evangelical Christians.
I agree with them. Any book that presents an alternate worldview besides Christianity should be removed from the shelves. The same goes for books that teach any other religion except Biblical Christianity. Since all humans are heterosexual and it’s a sin to engage in premarital sex, there’s no need to have books that educate teens about gay, transgender, and non-binary people. The Bible tells us we should shelter our children from the “world.” They mustn’t see or engage with people different from them. Public schools are government indoctrination centers. Children would be better off if they were homeschooled or sent to Christian schools that will teach them the “truth,” including the fact that the earth was created in six literal twenty-four-hour days, 6,024 years ago.
Recently, I was at the Defiance Public Library and I was astounded to find a book on the shelves filled with all sorts of vile behavior: homosexuality, incest, rape, fornication, adultery, murder, and genocide. This book called for the execution of people who were gay, worshiped false deities, or were disobedient to their parents. This book was loaded with bloody violence, including the story of a man who chopped up his daughter and sent her body parts all over the country. Worse yet, this book taught that women are second-class citizens, consigned to lives of dutiful marriage, bearing children, cooking Hamburger Helper, and obeying their husbands’ commands.
This book is available to children, teens, and adults alike. I am calling on the Defiance Library to immediately remove this book from its shelves. Our children must not be exposed to this book. It’s name, you ask? The Bible. Using the standard promoted by Evangelical pastors such as Greg Locke, it’s clear that the Bible, in all its versions, must be immediately removed from library shelves.
Of course, what I have written above is sarcasm. I encourage local school boards and librarians to reject all attempts to ban books.
Bruce Gerencser Ney, Ohio
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Several years ago, the fine, upstanding Christians over on Baptist Board were discussing my past and whether I was ever a “real” Christian. If you have not taken the time to read their pontifications, please do so. And after doing so, please let me know who in the Heaven they are talking about!
One forum participant suggested the following from R.A. Torrey’s book (Torrey worked with D.L. Moody in the nineteenth century), How to Work for Christ, for reaching people such as myself:
Having asked the man these preliminary questions, proceed at once to show him how to believe. I have found no passage in the Bible equal to John 7:17 in dealing with an honest skeptic:
“If any man WILL DO HIS WILL, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”
It shows the way out of skepticism to faith, and has been used of God to the salvation of countless skeptics and infidels. You can say to the skeptic, “Now Jesus Christ makes a fair proposition. He does not ask you to believe without evidence, bet He asks you to do a thing that your own conscience approves, and promises that if you do it, you will come out of skepticism into knowledge. What Jesus asks in this verse, is that you will to do God’s will; that is, that you surrender your will to God. Will you do it?”
When this point has been settled, next say to him, “Will you make an honest search to find out what the will of God is, that you may do it?” When this point has been settled, ask the man, “Do you believe that God answers prayer?” Very likely the skeptic will reply that he does not. You can say to him, “Well, I know that He does, but of course I don’t expect you to accept my opinion, but here is a possible clue to knowledge. Now the method of modern science is to follow out any possible clue to see what there is in it. You have given me a promise to make an honest search to find the will of God, and here is a possible clue, and if your promise was honest,you will follow it. Will you pray this prayer?
‘O God, show me whether Jesus is thy Son or not; and if you show me that He is, I promise to accept Him as my Savior and confess Him as such before the world.'”
It is well to have him make his promise definite by putting it down in black and white. After this is done, show him still another step. Take him to John 20:31:
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Here we are told that the Gospel of John was written that we might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Tell him, “Now this Gospel is given for this purpose, to show that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God. Will you take this Gospel and read it, honestly and carefully?” Very likely he will say, “I have read it often before.” You can say, “I want you to read it in a new way. Will you read it this way? Read a few verses at a time, and each time before you read, will you ask God to give you light on the passage that you are about to read, and promise that if He does, you will follow as much as you see to be true. Now when you have read the Gospel through, come back to me and tell me the result.” I would again carefully go over all the points as to what he was to do.
….
This method of treatment if it is honestly followed by the skeptic will never fail.
Torrey says that if skeptics are “honest” and follow his suggestions, they will unfailingly become followers of Jesus Christ. And when they don’t? Why, brothers and sisters, they ain’t being honest.
What do you think about Torrey’s approach to skepticism? Were you convinced of the error of your ways?
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Here’s an email I received several years from a Michigan man by the name of Dave Victor:
When I look at your face, I see hurt. I see a person who has had a lot of disappointments. A lot of rejection. And this all created a lot of bitterness, rage, hatred, anger.
Don’t take this life so personally and seriously. This life is short…eternity is forever. How one handles disappointment, rejection, hurt, health problems, whatever, is the test of who we are.
You have a choice of becoming a bitter atheist, or saying, ok Lord, I don’t understand it, but I will trust You to help turn this trash around, from lemons into lemonade…even if it takes years and years. Patience, crying to Him, watching not the circumstances, but how He can help change our hearts and attitude by His grace.
Yes, I could be you. But it’s not worth throwing Jesus out when horrors even hit. Not worth getting all bent out of shape and hateful. Keep your eyes on Him…He’s worth it all. Too heavenly minded? You bet…it’s for eternity, forever and ever. It will be so worth it, so glorious!
There is a hell. Why have you chosen to go there? Not worth it…all that bitterness and desire for revenge. Let it go! Who cares? A right relationship with Jesus is ….EVERYTHING.
Victor, using some sort of remote viewing technique, purportedly looked into my eyes and discerned that I am “hurt.” Damn right, Davey boy. I AM hurt. I have fibromyalgia (widespread fatigue, pain), osteoarthritis (pain in spine, feet, neck, shoulders, hands, knees), gastroparesis (nausea, vomiting), peripheral neuropathy (nerve pain in feet/legs), and four herniated discs in my upper back that have left me in excruciating pain. Persistent, constant pain is part of my everyday life, I haven’t had a pain-free day in over a decade. So yes, I am “hurting.”
Victor isn’t interested in my physical suffering. He’s far more concerned about the “hurt” that only diviners such as he can see. When Victor looks into the eyes of the “real” Bruce Gerencser, he sees bitterness, rage, hatred, and anger. Never mind the fact that my wife, family, and counselor — people who actually have intimate personal contact with me — don’t see what Victor sees. Never mind the fact that I am someone who is quite honest about his emotions, and I am emotionally nothing like Victor describes in his email. Victor sees what others cannot see: that Bruce Gerencser is a psychologically damaged man who desperately needs J-e-s-u-s.
Surely Victor spent some time reading my story, right? Nope. Here’s what he read:
Is there anything in Victor’s email that would cause me to reconsider my decision to walk away from God/Jesus/ Christianity? Of course not. His email is yet another reminder of the fact that most Christian zealots who contact me aren’t the least bit interested in my story. This is why I don’t waste my time on them. I periodically post these emails because they provide reminders of what many of us have left behind. Thank Loki we are free!
Victor asks why I have chosen to go to Hell. I haven’t. Hell is what I left behind.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Earlier today Glen Odem, a realtor from Mississippi and a group leader for Reformers Unanimous (also called RU Recovery Ministries) — an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) addiction program — left the following comment on the post titled Cindy Schaap, Daughter of Jack Hyles, Divorces Convicted Felon Jack Schaap. Odem ignored the comment policy for this site, determined to put in a good word for Jesus regardless of my wishes. As you shall see, Odem took a passive-aggressive approach to making sure I heard the “truth.” Never mind the fact that Odem’s comment had nothing to do with the post he commented on. Absolutely nothing. I can only assume, then, that Odem’s comment was a drive-by evangelism effort.
Odem did read ten posts on this site, so I do give him credit for showing a bit of curiosity. Unfortunately, his comment shows that he learned absolutely nothing from (or chose to ignore) my autobiographical material.
My response to Odem’s comment is indented and italicized.
Mr Bruce truth is truth regardless of whether we believe it or not.
Yes, truth is truth regardless of whether we believe it or not. Facts and evidence matter. I suspect, however, that Odem thinks that truth = Bible; that words of the Bible are inspired, inerrant, and infallible, 100% unadulterated, pure big T T-R-U-T-H. And therein is the rub. How does Odem know the Bible is truth? What evidence does he have for his claim? Just because the Bible says something doesn’t make it so. If Odem wants me to accept his claim, then he is going to have to provide evidence for me to examine.
Saying the Bible is TRUTH is a faith claim. Either you believe this claim or you don’t. I, for one, reject this claim out of hand. I do not have the requisite faith necessary to believe virgins have babies, spit and dirt heals blindness, humans can teleport through walls, or dead people resurrect from the grave — to name a few of the fantastical claims found in the Bible. I assume Odem believes all of these things are TRUTH. All I ask is that he provide evidence for his truth claims. Don’t quote me Bible verses or baldly assert that the Bible is TRUTH whether I believe it or not. As someone who spent fifty years in the Christian church and twenty-five years pastoring Evangelical churches, I know the Bible inside and out. I know, not believe, but actually KNOW, that the claims Evangelicals make for the Bible cannot be intellectually or rationally sustained. I’ve done my homework.
What I do wonder is whether Odem has done his homework. Has he read any of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books on the history and nature of the Bible? Ehrman is a New Testament scholar who teaches at the University of North Carolina and the author of numerous books on the Bible. If Odem has not read any of Ehrman’s books, I will gladly buy a copy and have it sent to him, free of charge. I have made this offer dozens of times over the years. Not one Evangelical has taken me up on this issue. Why is that?
Believing or not believing the truth only effects [sic] our lives and those we influence. Two plus two is four, whether we believe it or not. But not believing it can have a significant impact on our lives. Jesus walked on the shores of Galilee, he healed the sick and raised the dead. Those are facts, and us not believing them does not make them any less true. Jesus lived a sinless life, was crucified, buried in a borrowed tomb, and rose again the third day and whether we believe it or not doesn’t change it from being a reality.
As I mentioned above, Odem seems to not understand that asserting a claim doesn’t mean it is true. The Harry Potter books make all sorts of claims, as fantasy and science fiction books do. Should any of us accept the “truth” found in the Harry Potter books at face value? Of course not. For me to “believe” that Harry Potter can change things with the wave of his magic wand, I am going to want to see empirical evidence for this claim. I view the Bible the same way. It is a work of fiction, or, at best a historical novel. My wife, Polly, loves to read historical novels. Such books are filled with facts, yet the storylines are fictional. I can accept that Jesus was a flesh and blood human being who lived and died in Palestine 2,000 years ago. But if you expect me to believe the stories told about him, you are going to have to provide evidence that supports these stories being true. 2,000 years later, no evidence is forthcoming.
But not believing it can have a significant impact on your life in this world and in eternity to come.
Not believing the Bible has not affected my life in any meaningful way. In fact, it was believing the Bible was true that caused all sorts of problems for me. Now? I have no interest in the Bible whatsoever, outside of writing for this blog. My life is better in every way now that the Bible has no authority over me, no hold on my life.
Odem speaks of “eternity to come.” This is another one of those claims that Evangelicals make that is solely rooted in faith. I know of no evidence for the existence of an afterlife or the existence of Heaven/Hell. Let me say once again that just because the Bible says something doesn’t make it true.
You are probably a better man than I am morally. In fact, I’d say quite better because I know me!
Isn’t the only thing that matters how we live our lives? I try my best every day to be a decent, kind, thoughtful, compassionate person. Yet, because I don’t believe the same things as Odem, I am headed for eternal torture at the hands of his God. What kind of monster is this God that Odem worships and serves; a deity who values right beliefs over love, kindness, and good works? Even if this God is real, I wouldn’t worship him.
But there was a point in time when I realized I was lost and in sin. Not sin according to me or you or any other man but according to our Creator, and I accepted the payment that was made for my sins by Jesus when he shed his perfect blood for me. Now, that still doesn’t make me better than you or possibly anyone else for that matter, but it does make me justified in His sight, and that is what matters. Now I no longer enjoy those old ways and I do try to do better. But my relationship is not dependent upon my performance as a son it is dependent upon Him. However, my fellowship can be strained, but just like my relationship with my earthly parents cannot be undone my relationship with my heavenly Father is unchanging.
This is Odem’s personal testimony — an anecdotal story. And I am fine with that. Go with God. However, Odem doesn’t grant unbelievers the same respect. He’s not content to let us live our lives as we wish. Our lives are defective, in need of fixing. And only Hey-Zeus can fix us. I think I speak for most atheists, agnostics, pagans, and other unbelievers, when I say, we are fine just the way we are. We are not broken sinners in need of salvation. We are humans with the same wants, needs, and desires Odem has.
I cannot assume to know the condition of any man’s heart. So, whether or not this man is born again or not I do not know. I do know he was in sin, and it doesn’t appear he had remorse for it. But I have enough of my own troubles to keep me busy rather than condemning him. His actions speak for themselves.
Odem is being less than honest when he says that he doesn’t know the condition of my “heart” or whether I am born again. Isn’t his entire comment based on the assumption that I am NOT a Christian and neither are the readers of this blog; that we are sinners dead in trespasses and sins, headed for God’s judgment and eternal brimstone and hellfire after we die?
I am not sure what “sin” Odem thinks I was in — past or present. Regardless, he does say my actions speak for themselves. What actions? Telling my story? Trying to help people who have doubts and questions about Christianity? Trying to help and encourage people who have left Christianity? What, exactly, have I done that “speaks for itself”?
But I would say this to anyone reading this post: they’re bad people that work at WalMart but I’m not going to stop shopping there. If I were going to that church, I would not stop going to church just because of some bad people.
I didn’t stop going to church because of “bad people.” I walked away from Christianity because I no longer believed its central claims were true. It was truth that led me away from Christianity, not bad people.
So, if this rebirth has happened it cannot unhappen. Many people can say what they are it does not make them what they say. Only God searches the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Welp, I once was saved and now I am not. Odem can do with that what he will. I understand that he can’t square my story with this theology, but that’s not my problem. He does seem to doubt that I was a True Christian®. Again, all the extant evidence says that I was, indeed, a committed follower of Jesus. Does Odem have any evidence to the contrary? Of course not. He can’t fathom a Bible-believing preacher becoming an atheist. So the quickest way to dismiss my story is to cast doubt on my sincere profession of faith.
I pray this post is a blessing to someone, in Jesus’ name, amen.
I suspect Odem’s “prayer” will go unanswered; that the former Christians on the site will likely view his comment in a bad light.
What did Odem hope to accomplish by leaving this comment? I know I keep asking this question, but I wish people like Odem would honestly answer my inquiry.
In Reason’s Name, Amen
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
I’ve written before about how impossible it is to argue with Christians. It’s either that they have superior knowledge because an invisible ghost possesses them and is guiding them towards truths that non-believers can’t possibly perceive. Or it’s that the supernatural just cannot be understood in an evidential, naturalistic way. Science and empiricism – what we can detect with our own eyes, with specialist equipment that serves as an extension of those eyes or that can be mathematically demonstrated – just cannot detect, perceive or understand the supernatural. Gary Matson is currently experiencing this on Escaping Christian Fundamentalism, where a Catholic Christian (an oxymoron to many other religionists) is arguing that the things he believes in – hell specifically and his God generally – are just too sophisticated for the ignorant layman to understand. We’ve met this before too, from pseudo-intellectual Christians who think their faith, which its supposed founder said was best understood by becoming like a child, requires a degree or three in theology or philosophy.
It’s all a sleight of hand, and rather like wrestling with a jelly-fish. The assertion that the believer in the supernatural makes, that his or her particular brand of woo lies outside the purview of science, is mere flannel. ‘You can’t prove this because you haven’t the tools to’, applies to any form of magical belief – in heaven and hell, in an afterlife, in ghosts, and angels, gods who speak to mortals, mystical saints, flying horses, reptilian overlords, UFO abductions… you name it – does not stand up to scrutiny. If supernatural entities and states are outside the natural universe (and they are, by definition) then they will never be detected by science, observation, and empirical measurement; but not because our means of detection is inadequate, but because they don’t exist. It isn’t that they are out there somewhere, detectable only with the right frame of mind or with the help of a spirit that itself has no physical presence; they are nowhere; they are not real. It is not the inadequacy of our means of detection that is at fault; it is that the invisible, non-physical, and intangible have no substance outside the human imagination. As I’ve said before, remove human imagination from the equation and the supernatural goes with it. If humans were to become extinct tomorrow, so too would all the magical beings and places that humans have ever conjured up. They have no existence independent of the human imagination.
Arguing that this isn’t so is to assume your conclusion in your premise: ‘Of course supernatural things exist, you just can’t see them. But I can prove them with my argument/philosophy/faith’. This, however, is a demonstration of irrationality, not of the supernatural. In any case, the fact the supernatural has to be argued for at all is evidence that it doesn’t exist. Nothing real has to be argued for, it can be detected, shown, demonstrated, and measured by the senses, by instruments, by mathematical proofs. That gods and ghosts can’t be, but have to be argued for, tells us they are not real – not that they are beyond the scope of our capabilities.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
