Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Archives

Bruce, You Don’t Know Anything About the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church Movement — Part One

Bruce Gerencser March 30, 2023 Evangelicalism 9 Comments

I am widely regarded as an expert on the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement. I was raised in an IFB home, attended IFB churches as a youth, prepared for the ministry at an IFB college, married an IFB pastor’s daughter, pastored IFB churches, and have studied and followed the IFB church movement most of my adult life. Yet, it is not uncommon for an IFB zealot to read one or more of my posts on the IFB church movement and conclude that I don’t know anything about IFB churches, pastors, colleges, and parachurch ministries. Gary Richards, whose real name is Gary MacKay, is one such man.

Today, Richards left the following comment on a post titled “Old-Fashioned” Preaching: Calling Sin Sin, Stepping on Toes, And Naming Names. Based on the server logs, this is the only post Richards read. (Please see Curiosity, A Missing Evangelical Trait.) My response is indented and italicized. All spelling and grammar in the original.

What is obvious in the 1st paragraph is that you really know nothing of the IFB or IB churches. Their only claim is that they believe in the total Word of God & teach that from it. The term “old fashioned” is just that not from 2,000 years ago, be serious. What this means is from back in the day before the church was hijacked from liberal & progressive ideologies.

“Old Fashioned” is a term used by IFB churches and pastors to denote that their beliefs and practices predate the modern age; that their beliefs hail from better days in times past. Sometimes, the term is used to suggest that present beliefs are the same as those of Jesus, his disciples, and first-century followers of Jesus.

In 2015, I wrote a post titled, What Independent Baptists Mean When They Use the Phrase “Old-Fashioned.” Here’s what I had to say:

Many Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) churches advertise themselves as “old- fashioned” churches. Many IFB preachers call themselves old-fashioned preachers. What do they mean when they say they are an old-fashioned church or an old-fashioned preacher?

An old-fashioned church is one where members yearn for the past — usually the 1950s. In their mind, if society and Christianity would return to the 1950s all would be well. In the 1950s, Blacks knew their place, women were barefoot and pregnant, birth control was hard to come by, abortion was illegal, homosexuals and atheists were in the closet, and Joseph McCarthy terrorized Americans with attempts to root out communism. In the 1950s, we fought a war against communism, teachers still prayed and read the Bible in school, creationism was considered good science, and Christianity controlled the public space.

Then came the rebellious 1960s and 1970s, and everything changed. Sixty years later, Blacks no longer know their place, Whites are becoming a minority, couples no longer get married, women have access to birth control, homosexuals and atheists are out of the closet, a Kenyan-born Muslim socialist communist black man was president, abortion is legal, prayer and Bible reading in school are banned, creationism is considered religious dogma, same-sex marriage is legal, and Christianity is no longer given a preferential seat at the head of the cultural table.

From the fundamentalist Christian’s perspective, I readily understand why people yearn for the old-fashioned days of the 1950s. The fifties were a time when their brand of Christianity was the norm. Now they are fighting to be heard. Thousands of church members have left, seeking out the friendlier confines of generic, hip Evangelical churches. Instead of hard preaching against sin, Christians clamor for pastors who will “feed” them and minister to their felt needs. Most of all, they want to be entertained. Nones and atheists are increasing in number, and more and more people consider themselves spiritual or not religious. Pluralism and secularism are on the rise, and cultural Christianity is the norm and not the exception.

So what’s an old-fashioned Baptist church like? Their services are quite traditional; traditional meaning as it was in the 1950s. The focus is on “hard” preaching, often from the King James Version of the Bible. The goal is to convert sinners and strengthen church members so they can withstand the wiles of the devil and pressure from the “world.” Everything the old-fashioned Baptist church does is a throwback to yesteryear — an era when preachers preached hard, hymns were sung, altar calls were given, couples stayed married, women saved themselves for marriage and the kitchen, and the Christian church was the hub around which the community revolved.

Millions of Americans attend some sort of an old-fashioned church, even if the Baptist name is not over the front door. They love the respite their church gives them from the evil, sinful, atheistic world they live in. They love the certainty they hear in their pastor’s sermons. They are glad to be a part of a group that thinks just like they do. For those who desire to live in the 1950s, an old-fashioned church fits the bill. It heals their angst and gives them peace. It does not matter if their beliefs are true or whether their practice accurately reflects the 1950s. People seeking and finding value, hope, peace, and direction do not require truth. All they require is faith, and their belief that their “old-fashioned” version of Christianity is true. This is this power of myth.

Keeping the straight path of God’s Word bothers many since adoption and integration of evil & worldly vices, lifestyles and ideology ain’t happening. To suggest that it’s straight out of “one flew over the cuckoos nest just shows your true spirit. There are those & have been that were not drawn by God & grew up in the church & can’t wait to get out & talk smack about it, this is fleshly behavior, nothing new. There are preachers, pastors & teachers that were never called by God for this gift and promote a false gospel & distort God’s Word. There are ex- church attendees maybe even members that have left and claim to be now unbelievers. I would suggest they were never born again and never received God’s Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ sent. This is and always has been a problem since Jesus walked on this earth in the flesh.

Based on what Richards wrote above, it sure seems that there are a lot of unsaved people in the church he attends. All that old-fashioned preaching, yet people are still unsaved; “unsaved” meaning people who believe and behave differently from Richards. IFB zealots are known for their harsh, hateful judgments of people who dare to leave their cult. I have received thousands of emails, comments, and social media messages from Evangelical Christians. IFB Christians — a subset of Evangelicalism — stand at the top of the chart when it comes to people who hurl invectives, hatred, and even death threats. I can’t tell you the last time I have interacted with an IFB believer who was a thoughtful, respectful human being. When called out on their awful behavior, they make all sorts of excuses and justifications, but the fact remains that their ill-bred behavior does little, if anything, to advance the cause of Christ. I remain convinced that the Sermon on the Mount is missing from most IFB Bibles.

LOL – Old fashioned preaching. Preaching that doesn’t make people feel good but rather strokes their flesh is what worldly church attendees desire and it’s their sign they probably are not saved. Once the pastor of the flock preaches on a topic or subject that makes you uncomfortable is your sign. If it makes you butt hurt then go cry to the devil. Now, when it comes to feeling the Holy Ghost from certain type of preaching, you’re not qualified since you’ve never known the Holy Spirit.

Did you notice how Richards seems to be the arbiter of who is and isn’t saved? I thought God was the only one who knows whether someone was saved?

Richards wants me to know that I don’t know anything about the subjects at hand because I never was saved; that the Holy Spirit never lived inside of me. This claim, of course, is ludicrous. I was part of the Evangelical church for fifty years. Saved at age fifteen, I spent thirty-five years loving, serving, and following Jesus; preaching the gospel, teaching the commands of Christ, winning souls, and starting churches. Richards tries to dismiss my life out of hand, but he can’t. The evidence suggests that I was once was a devoted follower of Christ. That Richards can’t square his theology with my story is his problem, not mine.

Richards cleans carpets for a living. By all accounts, he is good at what he does. Imagine if I went around the Internet leaving comments that said, “Gary Richards doesn’t know how to clean carpets. He can say whatever ever he wants, but I know he can’t clean carpets.” Why, Richards would rightly be outraged. Why? I am dismissing out of hand his carpet cleaning experience. No matter what Richards says, I know better. I am absolutely right. I wonder if Richards will get my sermon illustration?

I have been to Charasmatic churches where fakers abound, doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see where these type of churches came out of. As with all fakes you will naturally spin them into the Christian religion even though they are not. It’s just as ludicrous as to trying to convince true believers that a lesbian preacher in a gay church is Christian. I’ve been to quiet lukewarm boring churches that would put anyone to sleep where members go just to punch in their time card and get Sunday over with. Been to churches that have no gospel & a lot of strange wierd things going on like meeting in the basement for a variety of herbs and such. Then you get to a church where the preacher speaks louder which does keep your attention, preaches on the Word right out of the KJV with a non scripted message direct from the Holy Spirit that speaks to everyone, you know you’re in the right place. Worse to y’all no doubt is that message ties directly what you heard before you hot to church.

Again, Richards seems to know who is and isn’t a Christian. He is showing signs of having Elijah Syndrome.

In 2021, I wrote a post titled Evangelical Preachers and the Elijah Syndrome. Here’s an excerpt from this post:

Elijah saw himself as the one remaining true prophet in the land. God reminded him in First Kings 19:18 that there were actually 7,000 prophets who had not yet bowed a knee to Baal.

Every time I think of this story, I am reminded that many Evangelical preachers see themselves as some sort of modern-day Elijah. And like Elijah, each thinks he is the one remaining prophet in the community standing up for God, the Bible, and Evangelical morality. Such preachers delude themselves into thinking that they alone are standing true, that they alone are preaching the right message.

….

I remember thinking this of myself back when I pastored Somerset Baptist Church in Mount Perry, Ohio. Everywhere I looked I saw churches and pastors who were not winning souls and who were not waging war against Satan, sin, and godlessness. As the church began to grow, I convinced myself that people were attending the church because they wanted to hear a true man of God.

….

This “I alone remain true to God” way of thinking is what turns preachers into insufferable, arrogant, hypocritical pricks. Thinking that they have some sort of inside knowledge about God and the Bible, they are determined to share what they think they know with everyone, even if people don’t want to hear it.

Preachers such as Jack Hyles, Fred Phelps, James Dobson, JD Hall, and Greg Locke didn’t start out as pontificating bloviators. Over time, they convinced themselves that they had been chosen uniquely by God to speak on his behalf. Once convinced of this, their pronouncements became more shrill and severe. These Elijah-like prophets of God, thinking that most churches and pastors are Biblically and morally compromised, withdrew from the larger Christian body.

— end of quote —

Over the course of his comment, what has Richards done? He has narrowed his list of “who is a True Christian®” further and further until he reaches a point where only he and a few other believers are True Christians®.

Now, your KJV problem, obviously you haven’t researched that enough. If you study with the greek & Hebrew then you know it’s the closest available in English. The changes in translations like the NIV are crazy & even the creator of the NIV apologized for it before his death. Same with other translations. Sure, the KJV is a pain in the butt to those that don’t study God’s Word.

I don’t have a “KJV problem.” It is Richards who reveals that he is woefully ignorant about the King James Version and other English translations. He is also ignorant of the various manuscripts underlying the various translations; that KJV is based on a small number of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts; that other translations use a wealth of manuscripts for their text. No, the issue here is this: Richards believes the KJV is supernaturally inspired, inerrant, and infallible — an irrational, unsupportable belief. If Richards wants to spar with me on the KJV, I am more than happy to do so. I think he might find that I know a wee bit about the subject; especially since I attended a KJV-only college and read, studied, and preached from the KJV most of my ministerial career. I might even know something something about the Hebrew and Greek texts. 🙂

But……..for the life of me I don’t understand how a pastor of 25 years changes gears & goes into calvanism. I mean, to be a pastor you should be full of the Holy Spirit, called by God to preach and you know God’s Word. Then to walk away & become a humanist & athiest? It isn’t a great surprise because we have countless counterfeit ministries & fallen preachers that were never real. That is a problem & the Word tells us this as we draw closer to that time.

Now we get to Richards’ grand finale.

First, it’s CALVINISM not calvanism — a spelling error common among people who know nothing about Calvinism. I am more than happy to discuss why I embraced Evangelical Calvinism with Richards if he is up to the task. I suspect he is not. The basic IFB position on Calvinism is this: “we ‘agin it. It’s from the pit of Hell.” I doubt he has read John Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion or any other book written by Calvinistic authors. Richards might want to check out my series Why I Became a Calvinist — Part One.

Richards is having trouble squaring my story with his IFB theology. HOW CAN THESE THINGS BE? Richards says. I don’t know what to tell him. I once was an Evangelical Christian and now I am an atheist and humanist. The inability of Richards and others like him to take the round peg of my life and put it in a square hole forces them to dismiss my story and deem me unsaved. Sadly, they never ponder whether the real problem is their theology or their understanding of the Bible.

Richards says I am a “fallen preacher” that never was real. I think deep down he knows better; that if I weren’t a Christian, neither is he.

Saved by Reason,

Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

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Do Evangelicals Interpret the Bible?

Bruce Gerencser March 24, 2023 Evangelicalism 18 Comments

The Bible is certainly more than 3 words. What that word ‘every’ is telling you is that from Genesis to Revelation every word of the Bible came from the mouth of God. It did not come from the human writers God used but from God himself.

That means that the believer is to live by Genesis 1 all the way to Revelation 22. Those are the words that God has spoken to us. Those are the words we are to live by not what unbelieving science or scientists say but by what God told us in his divine book.

This also removes the option of living by interpretation. As Peter has told us, the word of God is not by private interpretation. We are to find the truth of what God is saying and live by that truth.

….

Private interpretation is not allowed with scriptures. That is one of the reasons why we have over 40,000 ‘Christian’ denominations.

They do not live by every word that comes from God’s mouth. Instead, they live by their own private interpretation or the words of unbelievers. It is time to change and get back to the truth of the Bible and get rid of all alternatives to what God has told us in the Bible.

We are to live by the words of God while we can still do science, archaeology, and study other fields of interest, those are mere tools and have no authority over God or his words. if you want to live for eternity with God, then live correctly by his words.

— Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, TheologyArcheology: A Site for the Glory God, We Will Follow the Science, March 24, 2023

Thiessen believes that Christians should just believe the Bible as written, and never interpret its words and teachings. This is a common Evangelical belief. The Bible is considered different from all other written works. Its words are written by God, not men or women. While Evangelicals have a variety of explanations for how the Bible came to be, all of them believe the Biblical text is the words of God — inspired, inerrant, and infallible.

From 1995-2002, I pastored Our Father’s House in West Unity, Ohio. One Sunday night, several new families came to visit the church. After the service, I struck up a conversation with one of the men. He asked me what I believed about a theological issue (I can’t remember the exact subject). We chatted back and forth for a bit, and then I told him that I had a book that I would be glad to loan him on the subject. He replied, “No thanks. The Bible is all I need.” These families didn’t visit again. I suspect I was too liberal for them; you know, I read books.

Any time we read something, we are interpreting the words of the text. Words have meanings, and we must make interpretations to determine what written texts mean. Individual interpretations will vary, sometimes wildly so. I have been writing for sixteen years — millions of words. While I do my best to write in a way so people will clearly understand what I am trying to say, it is not uncommon for people to “interpret” my words differently from the way I intended. Since I am a living author, these misunderstandings can be easily corrected by just asking me, “Bruce, what did you mean when you said ___________?” On occasion, I will write something, send it off to Carolyn to be edited, and she will return it with a note that says “is this what you meant to say?” Sometimes, I reply, “yes, that’s what I meant to say.” Other times, I correct the text so it means what I intended to say. Carolyn has been my editor for years. She has a good handle on how I think and how I use certain words.

We, of course, don’t have access to the authors of the sixty-six books of the Protestant Christian Bible. Even if I were to believe that “God” wrote the Bible, he’s inaccessible. Ask him what he meant to say in this or that verse and his reply is silence. For the past 2,000 years, believers and unbelievers alike have been interpreting the Bible. The moment we read a word, verse, text, or book, we are interpreting it.

Thiessen decries the fact that there are thousands of Christian sects, each with their own interpretations of the Bible, yet is this not what he does in his own life? I question whether Thiessen is a member of a local Christian congregation. If he is, he is part of a church/sect that interprets the Bible a certain way. Theissen demands that people accept that the Bible says this or that. Is he not saying that everyone must interpret the Bible as he does?

Of course, Theissen denies that he interprets the Bible; he just believes it. Such thinking is absurd. To believe is to interpret. Otherwise, one ends up believing that one’s beliefs perfectly align with what God (the Bible) says. This kind of teaching is dangerous, leading to all sorts of dangerous cultic beliefs. Evangelical misogyny, bigotry, racism, and hate rest on the notion that the words of God and the beliefs of God’s chosen ones are one and the same. This is why interpretation is essential to understanding what the Bible possibly says.

The Bible is a collection of ancient religious texts written thousands of years ago. The authors are dead, so we can’t quiz them about what they meant to say. All we can do is interpret their writings. We are blessed to have books, software, language tools, and commentaries to guide our understanding of the Bible. Thiessen uses these tools, so it is disingenuous for him to say he doesn’t interpret the Bible. All of us are influenced by the authors we read. None of us is a blank slate free from external influence. Every book we read, every video we watch, and every podcast we listen to influences our thinking and understanding. (Even if someone says he is following the direction of the Spirit, he is interpreting what he perceives to be the Spirit’s leadership.) All any of us can do is rationally and skeptically read and study the Bible, coming to reasoned, thoughtful conclusions about what the text says. Most important is humility. I may come to a conclusion about what a particular text says, but I am humble enough to know that I could be wrong.

“God said it, I believe it, that settles it,” thinking has called untold harm. The Bible can be a source of blessing, encouragement, and help, but far too often it is a tool of hurt and destruction.

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Quenching the Holy Spirit, A Stick in the Hands of Authoritarian IFB Preachers

Bruce Gerencser March 24, 2023 Evangelicalism 4 Comments

If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:Neither give place to the devil.Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:21-32)

The Apostle Paul told the church at Ephesus not to grieve (quench) the Holy Spirit by participating in sinful behaviors. According to verses 22-24, Christians are those who have put off their old lives and embraced the new life they have in Christ Jesus. Christians are new creations, created in righteousness and holiness.

Specifically, Paul said followers of Jesus were to:

Stop lying, and always speak the truth
Never let the sun go down on their wrath
Never give place to the Devil
Never steal, making an honest living by their own hands so that they can meet the needs of others
Never let corrupt communication come out of their mouths
Put away bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, evil speaking, and malice
Not be wrathful
Not be angry
Be kind, tenderhearted, forgiving

Failing to diligently keep these commands leads to Christians quenching the Holy Spirit — the third person in the Trinity who lives inside of every believer. To quench the Spirit, then, means suppressing (reducing to an ember) the power, influence, direction, and control of the Holy Ghost in believers’ lives. In other words, finite, sinful beings can hinder the work of an infinite God in their lives by behaving certain ways.

Here’s what Got Questions? has to say on the matter:

The Holy Spirit is a fire dwelling in each believer. He wants to express Himself in our actions and attitudes. When believers do not allow the Spirit to be seen in our actions or we do what we know is wrong, we suppress or quench the Spirit. We do not allow the Spirit to reveal Himself the way that He wants to.

….

To grieve the Spirit is to act out in a sinful manner, whether it is in thought only or in both thought and deed.

Both quenching and grieving the Spirit are similar in their effects. Both hinder a godly lifestyle. Both happen when a believer sins against God and follows his or her own worldly desires. The only correct road to follow is the road that leads the believer closer to God and purity, and farther away from the world and sin. Just as we do not like to be grieved, and just as we do not seek to quench what is good—so we should not grieve or quench the Holy Spirit by refusing to follow His leading.

I was raised in the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement, attended an IFB Bible college in the 1970s, and pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years. I heard numerous sermons about quenching the Holy Spirit, and preached a few myself. Far too often, “quenching the Spirit” was used as a stick to beat church members into submission.

Take Tony Hutson, pastor of Middle Tennessee Baptist Church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee:

Video Link

Hutson is known for telling fanciful stories (AKA lies), so take his illustration with a grain of salt. He wants his congregants to know that if God (the preacher) tells them to do something, they better do it lest they quench the Holy Spirit, and God has to discipline (abuse them with a leather belt) or kill them.

IFB pastors are known for their authoritarian tendencies. Hutson, and others like him, are control freaks. Believing they are supernaturally “called by God” to preach the words of a supernatural book to frail, sinful followers of Jesus Christ, IFB preachers expect church members to obey and practice what they say. If believers refuse to do so, they are quenching the Spirit.

When people think for themselves and voice their differences of opinion, IFB preachers often tell them that they are getting in the way of what God is trying to do; that they are standing in the way of the Holy Ghost doing something great. Often, IFB preachers will subtly threaten those who are quenching the Spirit with judgment, suffering, loss, and death. All because someone disagrees with them.

The goal of preaching on “quenching the Spirit” is to whip congregants into conformity so preachers can advance their agendas. What is really going on, of course, is that no matter how hard IFB preachers try to quash uniqueness and freedom of thought, congregants refuse to comply. You would think, if the Holy Spirit is what Evangelicals say he is, everyone would interpret the Bible the same way; think the same way; live the same way. That they don’t suggests that the Holy Spirit is a myth; that churches are groups of individuals working towards common objectives. There will always be differences of opinion. Healthy churches allow for freedom of thought and belief, even when congregants disagree with their pastors.

Pastors are not always right. The “Holy Spirit” led me to make bad decisions. I wish people had spoken up or questioned the path down which I was leading the church. Instead, when we had business meetings, people just sat there, nodded their heads, and acquiesced to my will. Conditioned and indoctrinated by years of IFB preaching, church members thought they should follow my leadership at all times; that if I, as the man of God, was led by the Holy Spirit, who were they to stand in the way of what “God” wanted to do? The last thing they want to do was “quench the Spirit,” and risk punishment from God and estrangement from their fellow Christians.

Did your pastor preach on “quenching the Spirit?” Was this teaching on prominent display in the churches you attended? Please share your experiences in the comment section.

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Black Collar Crime: IFB Pastor Ken Shaver Accused of Stealing Over $10,000 From Church

Bruce Gerencser March 24, 2023 Black Collar Crime 3 Comments

The Black Collar Crime Series relies on public news stories and publicly available information for its content. If any incorrect information is found, please contact Bruce Gerencser. Nothing in this post should be construed as an accusation of guilt. Those accused of crimes are innocent until proven guilty.

Ken Shaver, pastor of Greater Vision Baptist Church in Owensboro, Kentucky, stands accused of stealing more than $10,000 from the church.

The Owensboro Times reports:

An Owensboro pastor is facing a felony theft charge after police allege he spent more than $10,000 of church money without approval, according to Kentucky State Police.

Kenneth Alan Shaver, 62, of Utica, was arrested Tuesday and charged with Theft by Unlawful Taking or Disposition of Property $10,000<$100,000.

Shaver is a pastor at Greater Vision Baptist Church, according to their website.

According to the arrest citation, Shaver “was found to have fraudulently spent a dollar amount exceeding $10,000.” The funds belong to the church operating fund, and the purchases were not approved, according to the citation.

Shaver’s church bio states:

Ken Shaver has the great privilege of being pastor to the wonderful people of Greater Vision Baptist Church. With a desire to serve the Lord, Who is worthy of our lives, Pastor Shaver believes that God can and will do great and mighty things through His people in Owensboro, Kentucky.

In fact, he has had a great burden and vision for Kentucky since the Lord called him to preach in 2000. He answered that call by going to Hopkinsville, Kentucky and starting the Greater Cumberland Baptist Church, whose first Sunday was the week of 9/11. This church plant in the Fort Campbell area greatly impacted the military community there and many were saved, discipled, and several have even gone into ministry and the mission field. This ministry continues to thrive under the pastorate of his son-in-law, Paul Edes. The Lord is still doing an eternal work through this church plant.

After 18 years in his first pastorate, the Lord moved him and his wife, Robyn, to the Owensboro area to pastor Greater Vision. God is stretching Pastor Shaver’s vision on a broader scale, and he believes Western Kentucky can be the place where God will send a mighty revival to His people. He is confident that what the Lord has begun in Owensboro, in Western Kentucky, He will continue and expand. The Lord asks His people to be faithful, and Pastor Shaver’s heart’s desire is to be a faithful servant all his days.

Not going into the ministry until he was 41, his prior secular jobs as Black Hawk helicopter pilot, air traffic controller, and international air traffic training manager provide him with many opportunities to relate to a diverse group of people; as well as compel him to use the rest of his life in the service of the Lord.

Pastor Shaver and his wife, Robyn, have been richly blessed with four faithful children, and a multitude of amazing grandchildren. He and his family look forward to sharing in the blessings of God as they serve Him all over the United States.

Shaver previously pastored Greater Cumberland Baptist Church in Hopkinsville, Kentucky.

In 2019, the Messenger-Inquirer had this to say about Shaver:

Ken Shaver learned to fly before learning to preach.

Shaver is a former Black Hawk helicopter pilot who has been pastoring Greater Vision Baptist Church, 4733 Sutherland Road, for about three months.

Shaver, an Ohio native, joined the Army in 1978 straight out of high school and initially started out as a clerk.

It was a friend who persuaded him to take the test together that would allow them into the flight program.

“…I said, ‘I’ve never even been in a helicopter. Are you kidding?’” said Shaver about when his friend suggested the idea.

….

From there, Shaver was sent to flight school at Fort Rucker in Alabama and from there was stationed at Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

And at that time, the Army’s Bell UH-1 Iroquois helicopter, nicknamed the “Huey” and best known for its use in the Vietnam War, was the standard utility fighting aircraft.

Shaver learned to fly the single-engine Huey before becoming among the first to pilot the twin-engine Black Hawk, which dramatically changed and improved helicopter flight combat.

….

During his 14 years in the Army — seven active duty and seven in the Army National Guard — Shaver logged just under 2,500 hours in the air.

While serving in the National Guard, Shaver was hired by the Federal Aviation Administration and worked his way up to the international air traffic manager. He was in charge of training foreign governments such as Morocco, The Bahamas and Egypt.

“We would go to help establish or improve a country’s aviation program,” Shaver said.

Shaver and his family were living in Oklahoma when he was “called to preach” at age 41.

Shaver said he was still working at the FAA but made the decision to leave a lucrative job for the ministry.

“(God) started dealing with my heart,” said Shaver, who’s now 59. “And I was a very happy man; I’ve lived a happy life; I had a great career and I was making big-time money; my future was set.”

But in 2001, Shaver returned with his family back to Fort Campbell to start a church.

“One of my greatest joys is that my wife and my kids never complained,” he said.

It was in the fall of 2001 that he converted a dance studio into what became Greater Cumberland Baptist Church.

“I quit my job; I took a $100,000 a year pay cut and moved to Hopkinsville, Kentucky,” he said. “…Our first Sunday was the week of 9/11.”

Shaver said the church became a home to many soldiers and their families.

….

Shaver said he’s trying to establish a veterans family care program that would help the families of the soldiers currently deployed from the Maj. Gen. (Ret) Dean Allen Youngman Owensboro National Guard Readiness Center.

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The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Lives of Evangelical Christians

Bruce Gerencser March 21, 2023 Evangelicalism 21 Comments

What do Evangelicals mean when they say that they are “indwelt” by the Holy Spirit? The Got Questions website — the go-to place for Evangelicals when they have theological questions — defines the indwelling of the Holy Spirit this way: the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the action by which God takes up permanent residence in the body of a believer. Simply put, when unregenerate sinners are saved/born again the third part of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, permanently moves into their lives, becoming their ever-present teacher and guide. The Holy Spirit filled the God-shaped hole in their hearts. He is an ever-present reality in their lives, even when they sin. Evangelicals can grieve the Holy Spirit by their actions, but they can’t make him move out and leave them alone. According to proponents of once-saved-always-saved, Bruce Gerencser, the Evangelical-turned-atheist is still a Christian. The Holy Spirit — also called the Holy Ghost — still resides inside of me, although he seems to be upset and pissed off about my godlessness and sinful behavior these days. 🙂

There ya have it. That’s what all Evangelicals everywhere believe about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit! Thanks for reading. I jest. The Bible says in Amos 3:3: How can two walk together unless they are agreed? While Evangelicals generally believe the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, their beliefs diverge from there. Arminians, for example, would take issue with Got Questions’ claim that the Holy Spirit takes up permanent residence in the body of believers. Arminians believe unbelievers can lose their salvation/fall from grace. Some of them believe that if a person falls from grace — looking at you Bruce — he or she can not regain their salvation. Once lost, always lost. Other Arminians think believers can fall in and out of grace, repeatedly. Years ago, when I was the manager of a Christian bookstore in Heath, Ohio, I got into a discussion with a Freewill Baptist youth pastor about the “security of the believer.” He explained his position this way: suppose he drove home on the freeway at eighty miles per hour, knowing that the speed limit was sixty-five. He knew that he was deliberately breaking the law, a violation of Romans 13:1,2:

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers [laws, police officers, speed limits]. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

If, in the course of speeding, he drove off the road, hit a bridge, and died, he would go to Hell. Why? Because the moment he chose to deliberately “sin” (break the speed limit) he lost his salvation.

The owner of the bookstore, who happened to be a member of the church I pastored, at the time, was also an Arminian. When I asked him at what point does a Christian lose their salvation? he refused to answer me. All he told me was that there was a “line,” and that if people crossed that line, the Holy Spirit moved out of their lives.

Further complicating matters is what Evangelicals call the “filling of the Spirit,” the “baptism of the Spirit,” or being “indued with power from on High.” Some Baptists (and other Evangelical sects) believe that once people are indwelt by Holy Spirit, that’s it. They believe that Christians have all of the Holy Spirit they will ever need. Other Baptists, especially Independent Fundamentalist Baptists, believe that not only can believers be indwelt by the Spirit, they can also be “filled” with the Spirit (or indued with power from of High). These special fillings are given to believers so they can do great exploits for God. I experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit many times, especially when preaching.

Charismatics, Pentecostals, and other Evangelical sects believe in what is called the “baptism of the Spirit.” Similar to the filling of the Spirit,” the baptism of the Holy Spirit — a one-time act or a repeated act, depending on the sect — leads to supernatural behavior: things such as speaking in tongues, healing people, raising the dead, and other acts that only God can do.

Are you confused? Let me add to your confusion. The “believers” in the Old Testament were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. According to many Evangelical sects, the Holy Spirit had not yet been given to believers, This didn’t happen until the Day of Pentecost as described in the Book of Acts. Until then, the Holy Spirit came “upon” believers from time to time, but did not indwell them.

You will find variations of these aforementioned beliefs among Evangelicals, each with its own take on the Holy Spirit. You would think God would have spoken clearly on such an important issue, but alas he did not. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism? Not in Evangelicalism, where the unity of believers is subservient to being right. I have no doubt that Evangelicals who stumble upon this article will stomp their feet and say, “that’s not what I believe, or what my church believes, what my pastor believes!” 🙂

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Bruce, You Are a Fool, Says a Fundamentalist Christian Woman

Bruce Gerencser March 21, 2023 Evangelicalism 19 Comments

Today, a Fundamentalist Christian woman named Brenda Moorfield left the following comment on the post titled How Dare I Badmouth IFB Evangelist CT Townsend! Says Fundamentalist Christian. My response is indented and italicized.

Both Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1 read, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’”

Brenda, what’s your objective? Surely you know that the Bible carries no weight with me; that I grant it no authority in my life. I am more than happy to discuss the nature and history of the Bible with you. I think you will find that I am quite conversant in all things Bible.

So, to the Bible, as interpreted by you, saying “Bruce Gerencser is a fool,” I say, so what? Just because the Bible says something doesn’t mean it’s true. The Bible is not evidence; it is a collection of books written by primarily unknown authors that make all sorts of claims. It is up to you, Brenda, to provide evidence for these claims.

You will find that presuppositionalist arguments carry no weight with me or most of the readers of this blog — many of whom are Christians. You presuppose that your peculiar version of the Christian God is the one, true God who created the universe; that nature, conscience, and divine revelation (the Bible) reveals to everyone, without exception, this God; that all humans intuitively know this God exists; that anyone who denies these “truths” is deliberately suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. You also believe that the Bible, as divine revelation from your God, is inerrant and infallible.

I reject these presuppositions out of hand. Let me be blunt, just because you say something doesn’t make it so. As a rationalist and skeptic, I expect actual evidence for your claims; not proof texts or regurgitated Fundamentalist talking points.

Some take these verses to mean that atheists are stupid, i.e., lacking intelligence. However, that is not the only meaning of the Hebrew word translated “fool.” In this text, the Hebrew word is nabal, which often refers to an impious person who has no perception of ethical or religious truth. The meaning of the text is not “unintelligent people do not believe in God.” Rather, the meaning of the text is “sinful people do not believe in God.”

Awesome, you know how to use Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. I find it interesting that you chose the third possible meaning of the word to make your point. The first meaning says that atheists are “stupid.” This claim — and it is a claim — is not factually supported. In general, atheists are more educated than Evangelical Christians. The more education one has, the less likely they are to believe in God; especially the Evangelical God. You commented on a post about Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) evangelist C.T. Townsend. If you are IFB or familiar with the movement, then you know IFB adherents are not known for being overly educated. The more Fundamentalist one is, the less likely they are to have a post-high school education. I don’t say this to say that Fundamentalists are “stupid.” I am saying that any suggestion that atheists, as a class of people, are stupid is a foolish and unwise claim. Are there stupid atheists? Absolutely. That said, most of the atheists I know are educated and well-read. Their atheism is rooted in knowledge and facts and a rationalist, humanistic understanding of religion and the world. That’s why we expect Evangelical zealots to interact with us on a rational, evidentiary basis. If you can do that, Brenda, I am more than happy to discuss with you anything you want. However, if you are here to quote Bible verses and preach, then I am not interested in hearing what you have to say. Yeah, I know, I have a hardened heart; I’m an apostate; I’m a reprobate.

In other words, it is a wicked thing to deny God, and a denial of God is often accompanied by a wicked lifestyle. The verse goes on to list some other characteristics of the irreligious: “They are corrupt; their deeds are vile; / there is no one who does good.” Psalm 14 is a study on the universal depravity of mankind.

Many atheists are very intelligent. It is not intelligence, or a lack thereof, that leads a person to reject belief in God. It is a lack of righteousness that leads a person to reject belief in God. Many people do not object to the idea of a Creator, as long as that Creator minds His own business and leaves them alone. What people reject is the idea of a Creator who demands morality from His creation. Rather than struggle against a guilty conscience, some people reject the idea of God altogether. Psalm 14:1 calls this type of person a “fool.”

Psalm 14:1 says that denying God’s existence is commonly based on a desire to lead a wicked life. Several prominent atheists have admitted the truth of this. Some, such as author Aldous Huxley, have openly admitted that a desire to avoid moral restraints was a motivation for their disbelief:

(Huxley quote deleted. It is irrelevant and an attempt to poison the well. I could just as easily say that Jeffrey Dahmer, Donald Trump, and David Hyles are Christians.)

Let’s see if I understand what you are saying here: atheists are corrupt, atheists are vile; atheists desire to lead a wicked life. Do you have any evidence for these claims? How many atheists do you know? How many of them have you actually talked to about their worldviews and how they live their day-to-day lives?

What you are saying to me directly is that the reasons I left Christianity and embraced atheism are because I am vile, corrupt, and have the desire to live a wicked life. (You could have quoted the “sins” in Romans 1 as well.) Evangelicals routinely accuse me of being a closeted homosexual. Their evidence? I have LGBTQ friends and I wear rainbow-colored suspenders.) Ask yourself this, Brenda. Did I immediately stop being a moral, ethical man the moment I said I was no longer a Christian? Did I stop being a loving, thoughtful husband, father, grandfather, neighbor, and friend? Did I have secret sins in my life, and becoming an atheist gave me to the freedom to lie, steal, cheat, and fuck whomever I want? Do you realize how silly this sounds?

Here’s what I know. Christianity has no corner on the morality market. You seem to forget that I was a pastor for twenty-five years. I counseled scores of church members and heard the deep, dark secrets of colleagues in the ministry. I can tell you this: Jesus is not vaccine against immoral and unethical behavior. Bible-believing Christians, who are filled with the Holy Ghost, can and do commit crimes and cause harm to others. I pastored people who committed all sorts of heinous crimes, everything from murder to sexual abuse to adultery to domestic violence, and numerous other crimes and lesser “sinful behaviors,” while not criminal, caused untold harm to their spouses and children. As far as preachers are concerned, please peruse the Black Collar Crime Series. You will find almost 1,000 stories about criminal misconduct by pastors, evangelists, missionaries, youth pastors, worship leaders, and other church leaders — mainly sex crimes. So any claim that Christians are moral or that Christianity provides morality that atheists don’t have is laughable and not supported by facts.

Further, I have been blogging since 2007. Thousands of Evangelicals have commented on my posts, sent me emails, or sent me messages on social media. By and large, their interactions with me have been caustic and argumentative. Many of these so-called followers of the Prince of Peace were hateful, vile, and nasty, threatening me with judgment, Hell, and death. Several have threatened to murder me; another threatened to assault my daughter with Down Syndrome. Others have visited other blogs and tried to attack my character. A new tactic is to seek out my family and acquaintances and try to evangelize them or play mind games. So, don’t tell me about the supposed moral superiority of Christianity. Thousands of former Evangelicals read my writing. Many of them will tell you, myself included, that we have met and know many fine people whom are Evangelical Christians. They will also tell you that Evangelicalism — especially the IFB church movement — is a poisonous tree that produces poisonous fruit. How about actually interacting with and learning from Evangelicals-turned-atheists/agnostics instead of pompously and arrogantly preaching AT them? Do better, Brenda, do better.

Belief in a divine Being is accompanied by a sense of accountability to that Being. So, to escape the condemnation of conscience, which itself was created by God, some simply deny the existence of God. They tell themselves, “There is no overseer of the world. There is no Judgment Day. I can live as I please.” The moral pull of the conscience is thus more easily ignored.

Belief in God has never stopped anyone from doing what they want to do. People do what they do — good, bad, and indifferent. All of us are as moral and ethical as we choose to be. I have murdered and raped as many people as I want. I have robbed as many banks as I want. I have sexually assaulted as many people as I want. I don’t want to, so I don’t — no God needed. If the only reason, Brenda, you are not a murderer, rapist, child molester, or thief is that you believe in God, then by all means keep believing in God. However, I suspect you know as I do that if you became an atheist today that you would be as moral and ethical today as you were when you were a Christian. People don’t suddenly become serial killers the moment they stop believing in God.

As far as accountability is concerned, I am accountable to my spouse, children, and close friends. I don’t need a magical being to keep me moral. I love my wife. I love my family. I love my friends and neighbors. And because I do, I want to be a good man; a loving man; a kind man. I am sure I frequently fail. but the bent of my life is toward love for those that matter to me.

Trying to convince oneself there is no God is unwise. The point of “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’” is that it is an impious, sinful heart that will deny God. The atheist’s denial flies in the face of much evidence to the contrary, including his own conscience and the universe he lives in.

Most atheists don’t convince themselves against extant evidence that there is no God. Have you actually had a serious, lengthy discussion with an Evangelical-turned-atheist; a discussion where they explained to you their reasons for deconverting? I doubt it. Your comment reveals a total lack of understanding about what it is atheists actually believe and why they left Christianity.

What evidence can you provide, Brenda, for the existence of your peculiar version of the Christian God? Not A GOD, not a generic God, THE GOD, the one, true, everlasting God you worship. Since God commands you to give an answer to the hope that lies within you, please provide evidence — outside of Bible prooftexts and generic appeals to the natural world (creation) and morality (conscience), both of which can be adequately explained by science — for the existence of your particular deity.

A lack of evidence of God’s existence is not the true reason atheists reject a belief in God. Their rejection is due to a desire to live free of the moral constraints God requires and to escape the guilt that accompanies the violation of those constraints.

Sigh. (Please see Why I Use the Word “Sigh.”) You are just preaching now. I suspect that was your goal. You really don’t have any interest in reaching me with the gospel. You are more concerned with being right; more concerned with putting an atheist in his place with God’s inerrant, infallible Word; more concerned about telling fellow Fundamentalists that you sure told that critic of C.T. Townsend. There’s no compassion, concern, love, or understanding in your comment from someone who invested little to no time in understanding my story or interacting me as an equal.

I deleted your lengthy quote of Romans 1:18-25. Did you think I have never read this passage of Scripture, or that countless zealots before you haven’t quoted these verses to me? As a pastor, I preached from this text numerous times. I know what it says inside and out. I spent over 20,000 hours reading and studying the Bible during the twenty-five years I spent in the ministry. If you comment further, please refrain from prooftexts. If you have not done so, please read the comment policy — which you violated numerous times. The only reason I approved your comment is that I thought my response to you would be helpful to both Christians and unbelievers alike.

You ending your comment with Romans 1:18-25 is you saying that what you said in your comment is God speaking, not you; that if I have a problem with what you said, I have a problem with God. No, Brenda, I have a problem with you. My goal in this post is to both chastise and correct you. You could have had a thoughtful discussion with me. Instead, you wasted it.

Be well.

Saved by Reason,

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Black Collar Crime: IFB Pastor Terry Rudisill Accused of Taking Indecent Liberties with Children

Bruce Gerencser March 18, 2023 Black Collar Crime 0 Comments

Terry Rudisell, pastor of Cornerstone Independent Baptist Church in Lincolnton, North Carolina, stands accused of three counts of taking indecent liberties with children.

WCNC reports:

The Lincolnton Police Department says a man is accused of child sex crimes, one of which reportedly happened recently.

The department said 49-year-old Terry Wayne Rudisill was arrested Friday afternoon. He is charged with three counts of taking indecent liberties with children.

A news release from police said one of the charges stems from a reportedly recent incident involving an 11-year-old girl, while the two other charges are tied to a girl who was 15 years old at the time.

Rudisill was jailed with a $50,000 bond. Online records show he made bail.

….

Rudisill’s home address was included in a news release shared with media outlets. WCNC Charlotte verified he lives next door to Cornerstone Independent Baptist Church. Google Earth data gathered in 2019 has a “Terry W. Rudisill” listed on the church’s sign as the pastor.

While Lincolnton Police have not yet confirmed Rudisill’s status as a pastor, WCNC Charlotte received confirmation from a former church member who said he was Cornertsone’s pastor. WCNC Charlotte also reached out to the church for comment and left a voicemail.

While someone did call WCNC back from the number, they did not leave a voicemail. A follow-up phone call yielded no response.

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Bruce, You Are Sick and in Pain Because God is Trying to Get Your Attention

Bruce Gerencser March 18, 2023 Evangelicalism 11 Comments

The recent success of an interview (28,000 views) I did with Tim Mills, the Harmonic Atheist, has brought me increased attention from Evangelical Christians.

Video Link

The same happened with the Vice News interview (1.8 million views) I did two years ago.

Video Link

Media interviews I do always bring out knives, pitchforks, and pyres, but it seems, at least to me, Evangelical hostility levels have dramatically increased, so much so that I have had thoughts of throwing in the towel. So much vitriol toward an insignificant atheist. What gives? Judging by their attacks, you would think I had kidnapped their firstborn or slept with their spouse. One man, whom I have banned and blocked numerous times, is trying to get at me through family, friends, and acquaintances. Yesterday, he went after my youngest son’s transgender roommate. That didn’t go very well for this Evangelical man. He happened to run into a young man who is more than capable of handling themselves. In fact, I suspect they enjoyed eviscerating this man. Earlier this week, my youngest daughter received a cryptic email from an Evangelical man, saying that he was trying to get a hold of me. Of course, he wasn’t trying to contact me. I am one of the most accessible people on the Internet. I am but a click or two away. No, this man wanted to let me know that he could get at me and my family. Why else did he list all the publicly available email addresses for me, including several email addresses I haven’t used in twenty years?

The fact that I have a lot of serious health problems has made it easy for Evangelicals to say that these maladies are God’s judgment or God trying to get my attention. The unrelenting pain that is literally choking the life out of me is “God” trying to get my attention. Someday, hopefully not today, tomorrow, or next week, I will die. I know that I am on the short side of life; that either disease, accident, or the damn cat will one day put an end to me. I can only imagine what Independent Fundamentalist Baptists (IFB) zealots will say on their blogs and what preachers say in their sermons upon hearing reports of my demise. “Bruce knows the truth now!” “Atheist Bruce Gerencser now knows that God exists and Hell is real!” These followers of Jesus will feign sadness as they speak of my death, but they will silently say to themselves, “that God-hating, Devil-loving motherfreaker got exactly what he deserved. No one mocks my God and gets by with it. ” (Motherfreaker is a Baptist swearword. An Evangelical recently got upset with me because I used a swear word in one of my posts. I am sure you can imagine my response to him. Please see Evangelical Swear Words.) 🙂

Let me circle back around to this idea that God gave me fibromyalgia, gastroparesis, and degenerative spine disease because he is trying to get my attention; that every night I writhe in pain in bed, unable to sleep, my suffering is a message of love from the Christian deity.

What’s with God “trying” to do anything? Is he weak and powerless, unable to do what he wants? If God is not willing that any should perish, how is possible that Bruce Gerencser, a frail, broken-down biped, can thwart God’s will? Surely God can easily and effortlessly reach me at any time. “Nothing is too hard for God” and “with God all things are possible,” the Bible says. Yet, it seems that saving me is too hard for God and that it is impossible for the Big Kahuna to reach me.

If my suffering is God trying to get my attention, does this mean that if I repent and put my faith and trust in Jesus, my chronic pain and illnesses will immediately and magically disappear? Crickets are all I hear from Evangelicals. They know there is no connection between my health problems and God. None. Shit happens, and this is my shit.

I have a three-year-old redheaded grandson named Silas. He’s a handful. Silas has no fear of anything. He must be watched at all times. Our living room is small, 16’x20′. We have three lamps in the room, along with an overhead light. I HATE the overhead light. My grandkids know not to turn the light on when I am in the room. Not Silas. He will run over to the wall switch, give me a look — you know, THAT look — turn on the light, and run off. No matter what I say or do, Silas keeps flipping the switch. Mischief is his middle name, some sort of karmic payback for my own childhood mischief. If my mom were alive, she would be smiling.

Imagine if I determined to teach Silas a lesson about the overhead light. I decided that the next time Silas turned the light on I would break his arm. Boy, that would get his attention, right? This is EXACTLY what Evangelicals are saying when they say that God has afflicted me to get my attention or to teach me a lesson. What, exactly, did I ever do to God to deserve such punishment? Or is God okay with Bruce, the Evangelical-preacher-turned-atheist, and that it is Evangelicals who want to see me suffer? Sadly, many Evangelicals are sadists. Unbelievers have what they can’t have, so they rail against them, uttering threats of suffering, death, and Hell.

If I broke Silas’ arm because he kept turning on the light, I would deserve to be arrested and locked up for my crime. So it is for the Evangelical deity who inflicts suffering on finite beings. If such a deity exists, he is unworthy of our worship.

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A Reflection on the “Will of God”

Bruce Gerencser March 15, 2023 Evangelicalism 5 Comments

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:1-2)

According to the Apostle Paul, followers of Jesus prove/show what is the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God by:

Presenting their bodies as living sacrifices to God (which is their reasonable service to God)
Not being conformed to the “world”
Being transformed by the renewing their minds

Those of us raised in Evangelical and Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) churches heard countless sermons and admonitions about doing the will of God. We were told that the Holy Spirit lived inside of us; that he was our teacher and guide, giving us everything we need for life and godliness. We were also frequently reminded to avoid the “world” and abstain from the very appearance of evil.

Most Evangelicals believe Christians have two natures: the flesh and the spirit. There’s a constant battle between the flesh and the spirit. The only way to overcome the flesh is to crucify it, giving no place in your life for carnal, worldly behaviors or the Devil. The only way to crucify (kill) the flesh is to explicitly, and without reservation, follow the will of God.

So what, exactly, is the will of God? Typically, Evangelicals believe the will of God is known three ways:

The inspired, inerrant, infallible words of the Protestant Christian Bible
The still small voice of the Holy Spirit in their heads
Personal feelings/intuition

The Bible is, of course, the gold standard for knowing the will of God. While the Holy Spirit can speak to Evangelicals or prompt them to do certain things, their behaviors must align with the teachings of the Bible. One problem is that there is no singular interpretation of the Bible. Every church, pastor, and congregant interprets the Bible his or her own way, often coming up with competing and conflicting interpretations. Thus, the “will of God” ultimately becomes whatever the believer thinks it is, regardless of what other Christians might think. Most Evangelicals believe in the priesthood of the believer. Every Christian has direct access to God, no go-between like the Roman Catholic pope between the believer and God. Of course, all the priesthood of the believer does is make every Christian their own pope.

I came of age in the Evangelical church in the 1970s, specifically the IFB church movement. My pastors implored me to seek and follow the will of God. At the age of fifteen, I went forward during a revival service invitation and asked Jesus to save me from my sin. I was baptized the following Sunday, saying to the church that I was a follower of Jesus Christ. Two weeks later, I went forward again, this time to tell the church that God was calling me to preach. From that point forward, my life was a string of choices that were me allegedly following the will of God. I say allegedly because long, painful reflections after I deconverted on the decisions I made that were the “will of God” led me to conclude that the only will that I was following was mine.

I went to Midwestern Baptist College to study for the ministry, married Polly, pastored this or that church over the course of twenty-five years in the ministry because it was the will of God for me to do so. I made countless decisions, from buying cars to moving into new houses to having children, all because I believed it was the will of God to do so.

How did I know doing these things was the will of God? I prayed and consulted the Bible. If it felt right for me to do something, that meant it was the will of God. Sometimes, I would talk to colleagues in the ministry about whether I should do something. Of course, I was looking for affirmation and approval for doing what I wanted to do. I made several decisions over the years that my preacher friends said were a bad idea. They, of course, were wrong. 🙂 As most Christians would testify, if they were honest, the will of God always lined up with my own wants, needs, desires, and ambitions. Isn’t it funny how that works? It is almost as if WE are God. 🙂

My life is filled with good and bad decisions. In 1994, Pat Horner and Community Baptist Church in Elmendorf, Texas offered me the position of co-pastor of the church. I prayed on the matter for a few days before declining their offer. I believed it was the will of God for me to continue pastoring Somerset Baptist Church. Several weeks later, I was studying in my office, in preparation for the Lord’s Day. Suddenly, I had a profound spiritual (emotional) experience. I began weeping as “God” made it clear to me that he wanted me to leave Somerset Baptist and move to Elmendorf, Texas to become the co-pastor of Community Baptist. Two months later, we moved to Texas. I was certain that I was following the will of God. Seven months later found me back in Ohio, mentally and spiritually destroyed. My time at Community Baptist proved to be a disaster. (Please read I am a Publican and a Heathen — Part One.)

What I am to make of God telling me one thing one week and another thing two weeks later? Was God the problem? Of course not. God is a myth. What triggered God (Bruce) to lead me to move to Elmendorf was a series of experiences that said to me it was time for me to move on. Have you ever thought it was time to work somewhere else, date someone else, sell your possessions, buy/sell your home, have children, or get married/divorced? Live long enough and you will make a few life-changing decisions. Sometimes these decisions work out, sometimes they don’t. I have made decisions that had disastrous results. I have also made decisions that worked out well for me. Marrying Polly forty-five years ago is a decision that definitely worked out well for me. Yet, there was a period early in our marriage when its long-term success was in doubt. We could have divorced. That’s a story I haven’t told, but one day I hope to do so.

Successful and failed decisions are part of the human experience. What complicates things for Evangelicals is God. When things work out well that is considered “the will of God.” When things don’t work out, Evangelicals often blame their “flesh” or Satan. God is, of course, never to blame. God is good all the time, all the time God is good, Evangelicals are fond of saying.

It is hard to look at the decisions you have made in life and realize that the only “will” in the equations is yours. To whatever degree we have free will, we choose, we decide. The next time Evangelicals say to you “this is the will of God,” ask them how they know this. What evidence can they provide that will show a particular decision/choice was God’s will? Often, Evangelicals will simply restate that their decision was the will of God. No evidence will be forthcoming. Much like the unwashed Philistines of the World, Evangelicals make their own choices — good, bad, and indifferent.

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Just Remember, Evangelicals Have Answers for Every Objection to Their Beliefs

Bruce Gerencser March 13, 2023 Evangelicalism 4 Comments

I was an Evangelical pastor for twenty-five years. I believed that the Bible was the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God — no mistakes, no errors, no contradictions, every word, straight from the mouth of God. Whenever I encountered a contradiction in my studies, I would pray and ask God to show me the truth. Often, I would turn to Evangelical books that listed alleged contradictions and refuted them. Their explanations almost always quelled my doubts. When these books didn’t, I retreated to the house of faith, believing that my understanding and interpretation was wrong; that God would one day make things clear to me; and if he didn’t, I would still love, obey, and trust him. The Bible says, “God is not the author of confusion,” so I believed that my intellectual confusion was either a ploy of Satan or my lack of understanding. God/Bible was always right. How could a perfect God write an imperfect Bible? I thought at the time.

Most Evangelicals are presuppositionalists — even if they don’t know what it means. They “presuppose” that their peculiar version of God is the one, true God; that the Bible is without error; that morality comes from their God through supernatural revelation (conscience, creation, Scripture).

Most Evangelicals have been taught various ways to overcome objections and challenges to their beliefs. Often, Evangelicals will ignore these challenges, move the proverbial goalposts, and attack those who object to their theological claims. This approach was fully displayed in my recent discussion with a Fundamentalist preacher’s kid (PK). My questions repeatedly went unanswered. Instead, she went into preaching mode, challenging the basis of my morality and understanding of facts. It was evident, at least to me, that was just repeating what she had heard from the pulpit; shallow, ineffective, contradictory apologetical arguments. Rarely are Evangelical congregants taught to “give an answer to the hope that lies within them.” Instead, they use worthless apologetics techniques such as Pascal’s Wager. Has anyone ever changed their mind after being presented with Pascal’s Wager?

Over the years, I have interacted with countless Evangelicals who think they are the ones who will win me to Jesus; that their arguments will overcome my unbelief and lead to my repenting and putting my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Most of them quickly learn that I am not your average God-hating heathen. I am well-schooled in what the Bible says — especially from an Evangelical or Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) viewpoint. Of course, just because I know more than most Evangelicals do about the Bible doesn’t mean my arguments make any headway with them. I often find that Evangelicals have answers for every objection I raise. Not good answers, but answers nonetheless; answers they have been taught by their pastors, Sunday school teachers, or read in popular Evangelical apologetics books written by men such as Josh McDowell, Norm Geisler, Frank Turek, Sean McDowell, Gary Habermas, and Lee Strobel, to name a few. Search the Internet for “answers to mistakes, errors, and contradictions in the Protestant Christian Bible,” and you will find a plethora of sites offering up answers to any question unbelievers might ask. Not good answers, or rational, honest answers, but answers nonetheless. When forced to choose between my objections and the “answers” they learned from preachers, teachers, books, videos, and podcasts, Evangelicals almost always choose the latter. To do otherwise would mean admitting that the Bible is not without error — a fatal sin in Evangelical circles.

There have been a handful of times when Evangelicals who wanted to challenge my beliefs got far more from me than they expected; so much so that they had a crisis of faith. Several of them later deconverted, embracing atheism or agnosticism. I have found that Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books can be deadly to the faith of those who believe the Bible is without error. It is impossible to honestly and openly read Ehrman’s books and conclude that the Bible is inerrant and infallible. One might still hold on to his or her faith, but he or she cannot continue to believe that the Bible is without error. Such a belief, when confronted by the overwhelming evidence against it, cannot be rationally sustained.

That said, no amount of evidence can overcome faith. I have interacted with numerous Evangelicals who admitted that they couldn’t answer my objections to their claims. Yet, they still refused to change their minds. Instead, they ran to safety — the house of faith. In faith, Evangelicals find comfort and security. No argument can overcome faith and personal experience. When Evangelicals invoke “faith” or appeal to their testimonies, I know our discussions are over. When I throw in the towel, Evangelicals often think they won. No, they didn’t win. I have learned that no amount of evidence can overcome personal feelings and experiences. My white flag is just me saying, “I give up. You are impervious to facts. There’s no thoughtful discussion to be had as long as you appeal to your feelings.”

I have found that my most fruitful discussions have been when questioning their beliefs about the nature and history of the Bible. Inspiration is a faith claim, but asserting that the Bible is inerrant and infallible is a claim that can be rationally investigated. If Evangelicals are willing to follow the path wherever it leads, it’s impossible to maintain that the Bible is without error. The evidence against such claims is overwhelming. That said, on more than a few occasions, I have had Evangelicals come right to the point of admitting that the Bible is not inerrant and infallible, only to have them withdraw into faith. One former pastor friend of mine, upon me showing him that the King James Bible had errors in it, said to me, “I don’t care how many errors you show me, by faith I’m still going to believe the KJV is inerrant. Fast forward thirty years and this IFB pastor still believes the KJV is without error. He recently preached a series of messages that were meant to prove that the KJV — an English translation of Hebrew and Greek texts — is not only inspired, it is also inerrant and infallible. I have no doubt he will go to the grave believing the KJV is a supernatural text without one error, mistake, or contradiction. He cannot or will not entertain the idea that he could be wrong. To do so would show that he is lacking faith. And if he admits he lacks faith, his whole world would come tumbling down.

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Tag: Independent Fundamentalist Baptist

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