Too many people are accepting and supporting the drag queen movement to the mainstream where it doe snot belong.
In fact, according to the Bible, drag queens do not belong anywhere in society and this behavior is very wrong. There are those Christians who dismiss the OT as if it does not exist. They only go by the NT which doe snot make as explicit comments as the OT does.
In Deut. 22:5 we have God command about this issue:
A woman shall not wear man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God. (NASB)
Their attitude is why we wrote the post The OT in the NT and click on those words to get to that article. We will challenge anyone to show in the NT where God changed his mind or what is an abomination to him.
We want them to properly exegete any passage they find that makes it okay to disobey this command in the OT.
….
Men are to be men and women are to be women. That boundary is not to be crossed at any time. There are people out there who say women can wear men’s clothing but their reasoning is all wrong and they are ignoring God’s instructions.
….
This topic may bring up the arguments of traditional clothing, i.e. kilts in Scotland.
All those situations do is tell everyone that somewhere in the deep history of a society, civilization, or nation, people began to ignore God and his feelings and dressed the way they wanted to. it just happens that those items of clothing made it to the 20th and 21st centuries.
Adding cultural practices to those changes in clothing styles does not make cross-dressing good or right. What is wrong in the beginning is also wrong centuries down the road. But that classification of wrong must go by God’s declaration, not someone’s personal preference.
This situation is not helped when famous fashion designers start to market women’s clothing to men. We are not going to be one of those people who say ‘what you do in your own home is up to you.’
If it violates God’s commands then it is wrong when done in public and wrong when you do it at home. But here is the clincher. Dressing in drag, male or female, is not the unpardonable sin. Drag queens can find forgiveness if they truly repent of ALL their sins and give up their desires to be drag queens.
They will need to let Jesus totally redeem them and make them new creatures. Repentance and redemption do not work if the sinner hangs onto their sins. This goes for homosexuals and transgenders as well as other members of the LGBTQ community.
You have to love Jesus more than your sins to receive repentance and redemption and all of this is done by the grace of God. If you want a new life, you have to totally get rid of the old (this does not mean getting a divorce or similar actions).
— Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, TheologyArcheology: A Site for the Glory of God, The Rise of Drag Queens, March 21, 2023
Thiessen is a certified homophobe. He’s hardly unique, in this regard. Such people say they believe in salvation by grace, but when it comes to gay people, transgender people, drag queens, and the like, all of a sudden, salvation by grace is abandoned. Thiessen adds terms to the gospel, terms that are not found in the Bible. This reveals that what is really going on here is bigotry, not concern over the spiritual welfare of LGBTQ people and drag queens. Either Thiessen has latent homosexual desires he is rebelling against, or he finds LGBTQ people sickening and revolting. Unable to just let people live, he condemns them using a bigot turd covered in a golden patina of religious verbiage.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Can someone tell me what “doe snot” has to do with this subject. I do not see any immediate relationship between the nasal accumulations of female white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) and men in drag. Can someone please clarify? Thank you.
It’s a spelling error he has repeatedly made. For whatever reason, he refuses to correct it.
And doe snot shall smite the queens and there will be howling and the gnarly gnashing of teeth! (It’s Old Testament stuff and doesn’t apply now that the New Testament reveals Jesus wears a dress.) Doe snot is a thing of the past! Praise Jeebers.
You’re hilarious! Thanks for the laugh.
Hmm, based on this belief that god doesn’t change their mind on rules, I assume “we” follow all 613 commandments in the Old Testament?
It’s amazing how only some rules apply.
The only thing drag queens need saved from are the fear-mongering, sex focused, bigots who try to legislate them away.
“Men are to be men and women are to be women. That boundary is not to be crossed at any time”
Okay so how are intersex people suppose to dress? And since men aren’t suppose to wear dresses why is it okay that all of the men in the bible, including Jesus, were traipsing around in long gowns? Evangelicals please chime in. This will be interesting.
I haven’t worn any skirt-like objects since a wedding in 2016, and prior to that not since the mid-1990s,. Well, maybe wizarding-type robes on a couple of magical occasions, but that would likely send Derrick the Stoopid into even worse pearl-clutching conniptions. 😀
Give up my jeans? Or my Sensible Shoes? Or my fedora?? No effin’ way, DDT.
I’m surprised Mr Tee doesn’t move to Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia where female dress codes are mandatory. Then again I have my suspicions as to why he lives where he does.
I do too.
In short order, Thiessen responds:
https://theologyarchaeology.wordpress.com/2023/03/23/the-rise-of-drag-queens-ii/
All his post does is reinforce the fact that Thiessen doesn’t understand the Evangelical gospel — at least when it comes to LGBTQ people and drag queens. If we apply his “drag queen gospel” to other Christians, it becomes crystal clear that no one is saved; no one has forsaken ALL of his sins, including Thiessen—especially Thiessen.
Thiessen wrote:
“Allowing LGBTQ members to hold onto their sins and continue practicing them, is not love. It is hatred. If those people who were declared homophobes were really afraid of the LGBTQ community, then they would not do anything but sit back and watch them destroy themselves.
Jesus said, he came to save those who are sick and lost, Jesus did not let anyone remain in their sins if they wanted eternal life with him. They had to repent and follow him if they wanted to make it to heaven. The thief on the cross gave up all his sins, why can’t the LGBTQ community members do the same?”
I’m speechless.
I wonder if Thiessen has given up ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL of his sins? Of course not.
I am not aware of any circumstances where calling people ‘sick’ in context of something they haven’t chosen (and that carries no impact upon certain, unreasonable fundies) is an act of love. Do people seriously believe going up to a same-sex couple and insulting them like that is an act of love? That’s crazy.
I didn’t know that “clothes” had a gender?
Shirts do, and maybe pants, but only because the buttons/buttonholes are on opposite sides. I’m sure there’s some historical explanation for it.
Probably Eve’s fault. 😉
Zoe—I confess: It’s really my fault! I am transgender, so everything is my fault. And I grew up Catholic, so I have enough guilt to take the blame for everything.😉
Wait a minute MJ! I grew up believing everything was my fault. Conceived out of wedlock you know. Sort of like Jesus . . . oh wait a minute? It’s his fault? Or wait, no maybe Mary’s? Nah, probably oh no! Holy Spirit . . . you’ve got some explaining to do.
My mom and I used to discuss clothing a lot when I was in the fundamentalist Christian school. Both of us thought the gender-based dress code was ridiculous. My mom and I discussed how clothing styles and mores are specific to culture, time, and place. And we were dismissive of the notion of clothing specific to males or females. How is a button down shirt or polo really gender specific, for example? Ridiculous. And actually, the school only targeted jeans (only for guys, even at extracurricular activities) and skirt/dress length/coverage and top coverage. Boys were required to wear shirt tucked into their jeans/pants and a belt and were required to be clean-shaven and hair no longer than in the school handbook diagram. Anyone coukd wear a sweater, flannel shirt, button down shirt, polo shirt, etc…..
For example regarding cultural mores, I was in Abu Dhabi about a year ago. Native Emirati men wear a long white robe. Native Emirati women wear a long black robe. If you see someone in a different colored long robe you know they’re probably Muslim but not Emirati. So if a woman is wearing a long white robe, does that mean she’s wearing men’s clothing? I doubt they’d see it that way and would assume she is a Muslim woman from a different country.
As for the term “homophobic”, I knew someone who said, “I am not homophobic as I am not afraid of gay people – I am homohatic because I hate them.” I thought that was more honest and accurate.
I had the same thoughts as you OC about men in robes. But notice Tee says ‘…people began to ignore God and his feelings and dressed the way they wanted to…’????? As well as cultures where men wear robes or kilts, what about past centuries? Go to any Art Gallery and you’ll see family portraits where little boys have long hair and lace knickerbockers, as do the good x-tian men, it was the fashion. I knew a missionary to an ethnic group whose women were bare breasted and whose men just wore a scrap of cloth to cover their naughty bits. He said that there were strict rules about this, what was appropriate and what wasn’t….but Tee inhabits another planet and has the cultural sensitivity of a rock, ISTM. (Or just very, very little brain.)
What about Pope Benedict?
Oh, right. According to Tee, he’s not really Christian.
Matilda, there’s a photograph of my great-grandparents, both Baptists, with their eldest son who, at age 2, was clad in a white dress trimmed in lace and patent leather Mary Jane shoes. This dress was indicative of how many people dressed their toddlers in 1912. Great-uncle John grew up to be a career US Army man who served in both WWII and Korea. But according to Mr Tee, Uncle John and his parents deserve hell for Uncle John’s attire?
My grandmother told me back during those days they dressed both boys and girls till around age 2 in dresses to make it easier to change diapers and that Mary Jane shows were considered for both boys and girls back then.
I choose not to spend any of my limited time on DDT’s site (thanks for taking one for the team, Bruce). I trust DDT cited the scriptural references that define what is in fact men’s clothing and women’s clothing. Certainly God would not allow societies at any time in history to make that distinction for themselves.
If I recall some of my history lessons, pants were not appropriate male attire for civilized societies in the ancient world. Only uncivilized barbarian peoples wore those outrageous garments. As an agnostic, I wear pants to flaunt my rebellious nature, but surely no TrueChristian man would wear such things.
“Either Thiessen has latent homosexual desires he is rebelling against, or he finds LGBTQ people sickening and revolting.”
“Or?” Nah, man, you mean “and”. 😛
He’s been taught to hate himself vehemently. This can lead to… issues.
Kadeph–You took the words out of my mouth (or off my keyboard!)
As a transgender, I have to wonder whether I was sinning during all of the years I lived as a male: After all, I have been a girl/woman all along. It’s just that I didn’t start living that way until I was in my 40’s.
Kadeph, there is only one thing that can ruin basic self-care/love more efficiently than Religion: Not being fortunate enough to have a nurturing bond with parentals. I sometimes surmise that the aberrations known as world religions are actually the viral evolutions of harm done early in life. Look at how damaged people are often their very own abuser-parents’ biggest supporters. Jesus-daddy died for you, you scum. Be grateful he even allows you breath! You deserve all the abuse that comes to you.
And then, thank Twain et al, the great preacher, George Carlin reminds us: BUT HE LOVES YOU!!! And he needs your MONEY!
Hi Bruce,
I don’t know if you will see this but, I’ve been a fan of your blog since you made a post in 2022 about Bible Thumpers. I just want to say thank you for your blog, the knowledge and laughs it brings from me.
Cheers!
I waste no time on this knuckle dragger. Anyone who can vehemently and regularly defend men who sexually assault women, but rail against people like me because me, is not worth my time. They should worry about their own soul and keep their fingers out of my life. Their god did not make them my keeper.
I speak against this bigoted god based hatred wherever I find it, because it is insidious, dangerous, and extremely hurtful when used against vulnerable LGBTQIA+ people who are mired in the swamp of religion. It can result extreme self loathing, painful mental health issues, constant suffering, and can even lead to death. I place all of these terrible things squarely on the back of Christians who proclaim love while spewing hate.
They proclaim the very core of a person to be evil and against their god’s wishes. They call us abominations and refer to us in other disgusting and horrific terms. They pile on with vile references and constantly refer to us as sick, disgusting, and whatever terms they can use to cause pain. They even use children in their sick quest to eradicate entire groups of people who they simply do not like. Even worse, they will attack children, tell them they are lost and confused, and even threaten to break up families if parents do not follow the “proper” rules – rules that are defined by their particular twist in a very twisted religion.
All done under the insidious facade of christian “love.”
I have lived with the evil darkness that Christianity and it’s adherents have heaped on me. I managed to escape the darkness of this sad belief system and escaped the indoctrination of my parents and others around me, and even escaped my own self indoctrination.
I survived, literally survived, the death that chased me constantly, always managing to keep one step ahead. I know several people who didn’t survive the chase.
I have made great strides in overcoming the mental pain and anguish. I know many people who have constant suffering and little hope.
And now I find myself running again, looking over my shoulder, and dodging the mental assaults along the path. Now trans hating christians and their ilk attack children and families, threatening the physical health and mental well-being., then have the audacity to claim they support parents rights and claim to protect children.They call for the “eradication of transgender ideology”, which are big words to call for the eradication of all gender non conforming people, but claim they don’t want anyone truly hurt – I suppose they do this hoping we self eradicate. They want to deny basic health care to people because somehow they know better. They use terms like mutilation, confused, mentally ill, indoctrinated, fad, and so on to minimize, manipulate, and mislead. They push their legislators, under the umbrella of Christian belief, to pass laws meant to eliminate any LGBTQIA+ person who dares to stand up to their tyrannical form of christianity.
They have no problem joining with terfs, anti trans LGBTQIA+ people, fundamentalists of other religions, far right agitators, and even neo nazis, just as long as they all support the transphobic screed of christians and the call to eliminate all gender non conforming people. No sin is too great, no evil is too dark, no person is too vile, to use in their fight against the abomination of gender non conforming people.
Such a wonderful example of Christian moral values, ethics, and love.
Life has made me a tough, hard edged, well armored person. I have withstood my own self hatred and the hatred of local churches. I withstood the pain and guilt heaped on me by family even though it lead to forcing them choose to support me or lose contact. I withstood public verbal assaults, only to return in full force. I have confronted those who attempt to physicall assault me, watching them pause when I do not hide or cower.
But even with all of the strength I have built over the years and all I have confronted, I find myself slogging through this ever growing swamp created by loving Christians and their lapdog legislators. I feel old feelings and thoughts return. Hopelessness hovers. Dark thoughts chase me closer than before. I am tempted to hide. I am tempted to just stop fighting. I am tempted to give in.
The hatred fed by Christians confronts gender non conforming people every single day. It seems that every day a new pain arrives. There is now a concerted effort to actually eradicate and destroy gender non forming people. It is nonstop. It is daily. It comes from all directions. It can be overwhelming.
Something I thought I was well passed has grabbed me again. And I know if I, the person who is a pretty fierce bitch, am dealing with this, then others who are not as strong, who are young and vulnerable, who are trapped in religiosity, closeted, or just simply scared, are suffering even worse. The pain, fear, and worry they feel may overcome them, or cause them terrible harm.
But I am not going anywhere. I want vulnerable queer to know they are not alone, they are valued, they are valid, and have full rights to exist. They do not have to be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed and in the process transform the world around them. Yes these times are admittedly among the toughest I have seen in my time, but we can persevere. The struggle for LGBTQIA+ equality has been going on for my whole life, from Stonewall and onward through many crises. We always have, and always will, exist. Christian hate will try, but will fail, to eliminate us. We just need to keep existing, and support each other, and show the world that, in spite of the lies fueled by Christians, our only goal is to exist, be equal, and live our lives in peace.
Sage, your comments are a post and I hope more people can read this. I cannot fully comprehend what you and others (some who comment on this blog) face in the increasingly hostile landscape we see around the world today. I mentioned to someone the other day, if you aren’t planning to have sex with or reproduce with someone, how the f$ck does their gender, gender-identity, or sex affect you? It f$cking doesn’t, so leave them the f$ck alone.
Thank you Sage for this post. It is a post in its own right. I am so glad you are here. I appreciate your input here and the courage you show by sharing deeply painful and personal struggles.
Sage–Thank you for your brave and honest post. I will show up for you and others like you in any way I can.
Sage—Decades ago, long before I “came out” as a transgender woman and sexual abuse victim of a priest, a dear friend committed suicide. I spent the last night of her life with her. I am remembering her as a woman because of what she told me, in the language available to us at the time, that it was how she knew herself.
There have been days when the memory of her was the only thing that has gotten me through the morass of hate you’ve described. Lately, I’ve wondered whether that, or anything else, will be enough: I have had a different kind of crisis and it’s hard not to think that people who are entrusted to protect and help us aren’t helping me because of who I am (which was used, among other things, to bring on that crisis).
Oh, but they love their God!
Thank-you, Sage. Thanks for this last post and for all your contributions here. Yours is an essential voice and keeps on keepin’ on informing, laying down light for all of us. I know the cyclical nature of struggle and that what we accomplish will sometimes come back to slap us as if we have not achieved! But we have… When I quit smoking about forty years ago, I quit several times and each time, would find myself smoking again after a time. I quit Jesus’ church the same way, again and again until it stuck.
But the damn billboards keep being built to take up our real estate, to defeat vision, spoil the view and reduce us to consumers. The haters who demean the world in general with their black and white ‘love’ keep yelling at us.
The only peace that passeth understanding is made by us, in us, claimed by us, for us. Sometimes it ain’t very peaceful around here (me) but I am encouraged by your sharing what’s what…. again, thanks for being here.
I have to admit, I feel increasingly disconnected from Evangelical Christianity. I only spent about 3 years attending Evangelical churches, after I’d abandoned my Catholic upbringing, and I never did dive in with both feet. A good year after my Evangelical rebaptism, I finally discovered that my co-religionists were taking literally parts of the Bible that had long been refuted by science. I live in Silicon Valley! The people in those churches tended to be educated! How the heck could they take stuff like Genesis as literal truth???
I am a sort-of-published author; my name is one of many on a professional paper published by the Geological Society of America, and my MS thesis is out there, free for the downloading. People actually do, which surprises me. Before I got into geology, I wrote a ton of design specs and design descriptions when I worked as an engineer and engineering lead for a defense contractor. Writing is hard work. Conveying what you really want the reader to understand is fiercely hard work. I can’t imagine, however, that it would be hard work for an omnimax being. And so the tale that an omnimax God needed humans to write his instructions, and then let them collate various writings reflecting the biases of different times into his instruction manual…I’m sorry, no omnimax deity is that stupid. The tale doesn’t meet the scratch test.
Thiessen said:
“For example, we made quite clear that the members of the LGBTQ community and drag queens had to give up all of their sins to be saved. However, someone took ‘offense’ at those words and wrote a blog post with this title- Christians Say the Darnedest Things: You Can’t be Saved if You Don’t Wear Sex-Appropriate Clothing”
“LGBTQ people and drag queens have to give up ALL their sins to be saved.” Thiessen’s words, not mine.
He then said: “At no time did we say that a drag queen or even a mild cross-dresser would not be saved if they wore the wrong clothing.” Huh? Read what he said above,
And then, he said:
“We made it very clear, that they would have to give up cross-dressing if they came to Jesus to be saved.
Cross-dressing is not the unpardonable sin, nor is it even close to it. But one thing is very clear, if you want to be a new creature in Christ, you have to give up 100% of the old life. But leave it to the unbeliever to misrepresent what was said and deceive their readers.
This is why we have said in the past that there is no such thing as a homosexual or lesbian, etc., Christian. You are no longer those old people once Christ has redeemed you. Christ has changed you and you need to embrace that change not hang on to sin that will destroy you”
What we have here is a man who hates LGBTQ people and drag queens, so these folks can’t end up in Heaven with him. Yet, Thiessen supposedly knows his hatred runs contrary to the Christian gospel, so we see the ping pong battle in his post.
The Bible says, “the double minded man is unstable in all his ways.” Thiessen really needs to decide whether he is a bigot or the preacher of the good news. He can’t be both.
https://theologyarchaeology.wordpress.com/2023/03/26/lies-deceptions/
Tee is absolutely clueless, but there are a couple of things he says in his article that made me chuckle. Firstly, he goes on about how words never need to be interpreted. But then he has a few typos in his text (something we all do and we usually ignore), especially his regular space before the s, hence ‘ha snow’ instead of ‘has now’. Well to be able to understand what he meant I had to re-write ha snow in my head, which is interpreting.
As for only philosophers needing to interpret words (because his teacher told him!), he’s clearly never studied law. I have a degree in law and I can assure him that interpretation is a massive part of the course. Statutory Interpretation was a subject in its own right. Lawyers, and then judges, often can’t just take the wording of legislation at face value because laws are written very generally but cases are individual to their facts. One has to look into the minds of the drafters to glean intention and try to apply it to the case in hand. As for the bible: isn’t that fundamentally a work of philosophy?
Geoff—Years ago, I talked to a judge for an article I was writing. “When someone asks, ‘What does the law say?,’ I have to chuckle,”he said. I chuckled.
David: ” But one thing is very clear, if you want to be a new creature in Christ, you have to give up 100% of the old life.”
Zoe: So, does that “100% of the old life” include their heart beat too David?
Classically contradictory, which is to be expected from fundamentalists.
If Genesis 11:1-9 is true, how can anyone claim that the Bible—or anything consisting of words—can be interpreted only in one way—or that God wanted such a thing? For that matter, how can anyone claim to know what is the “right” interpretation? I mean, if God wanted his words to be taken in a certain way, as Bible literalists claim, why would he render people unable to communicate with each other? If they can’t understand each other, how would they, or whoever came after them, understand anything God said afterward?
I know that some claim God “speaks” in his own language. Well, doesn’t that mean that whoever wrote those words down (or carved them into rocks or whatever) was interpreting God’s words or “words,” possibly into a language different from whatever the Babylonians spoke before they built that tower?
And folks like the esteemable* “Dr.” Thiessen claim they can tell us how God wants us to dress or whom to love!
*—Everyone is “esteemable” in the same way that everyone is lovable—to someone.
Although I wear a skirt almost all the time I have a couple of pairs of Jeans for when we are baling and stacking hay. If that fellow thinks I should wear a skirt when handling hay he is welcome to try it. hay is dry and scratchy and leaves splinters in my knees, which get infected often enough. he can try it in shorts on any farm where hay is baled. For what it might be worth my son wore shorts when he was a toddler until he climbed an old wooden ladder standing in the yard: he got splinters in his knees. Fortunately he held still while I pulled out the splinters. One of my daughters took a spill while riding her bike; her skirt did not protect her leg from the gravel she landed in. (none of us can wear clothes in standard sizes, so we sew much of what we wear. I have sewn my husband’s slacks for decades. He is the hardest to fit of all of us.) Most libraries have books about clothing and sewing, especially what was worn during the centuries. Togas (looks like an old bedsheet wrapped around the torso), Roman soldiers wore sandals and short leather “skirts”. IN colonial times men wore short pants (Knickerbockers) In the 1800s women wore long full skirts and low cut bodices. Did British men stationed in India during the British Empire wear “normal” British wool suits and die of heat stroke? I think I hears about that once. And remember, Rosie the Riveter helped win World War II. clothes are supposed to match the task!