As one might expect, the comments, 11,000+, have been quite entertaining. Evangelicals have attacked me in every way possible. (And there have been a number of complementary, supportive comments too.) I knew this would happen. After all, the video exposed Trumpist Pastor Greg Locke as a nutjob and conspiracy theorist. YouTube comments can be vicious. Jesus’ followers seem to set their Lord’s commandments aside when commenting on social media. That’s why they find Locke so appealing. He’s a vicious, nasty, violent liar. Personally, I find their comments quite entertaining (and sad), reminders of what lies in the heart of many Evangelicals.
Recently, a man (maybe a woman) left the following comment:
I am a former pastor who is a Satanic, gay atheist. 🙂
I AM a former pastor, and I am an atheist, but gay and Satanic? I am an atheist, so not only don’t I believe God exists, I don’t believe Satan/demons exist either. As far as being gay? Evidently, my rainbow-colored suspenders are a sure sign I’m g-a-y. 🙂 (I do occasionally wear them because I know they irritate the Hell out of Evangelicals. Other times, I wear them to show my support for the LGBTQ community. And, quite frankly, I like these suspenders. I have thirteen pairs of Perry Suspenders. I am a fashionista.) 🙂
Calling me “gay” is meant to be a slur, a way to personally attack me. Juvenile behavior by middle school boys who think it’s okay to call people fags, queers, or pussies. When, oh when, will God’s chosen ones grow up?
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
After I wrote Part One, Joe took to commenting on several posts on this site. You can check out his comments here, here, here, here, and here. All told, Joe left twenty-five comments before I cut him off.
I gave Joe one last opportunity to say whatever he wanted to say. After that, move on. I told him that I would approve no further comments from him. Joe tried to continue commenting, but I deleted his comments.
I stated in the comment section:
As sure as the sun comes up in the morning, give Evangelicals enough rope and they will reveal their true beliefs and character. I’ve seen it over and over and over again. Joe Sperling is the latest example of this.
As time went on and he got pushback from readers, his pronouncements became more aggressive. This is one of the reasons I typically only give Evangelicals one opportunity to comment. Joe wasn’t Revival Fires — a fucking low bar if there ever was one — so I extended to him commenting privileges. And sure as the sun comes up in the morning . . . 😂
I finally asked him to make one last comment and move on. Do you think he could do that?
Tonight, he sent me two emails. Here’s what he said:
“I’m not whining. All you had to is ask. However from now on when someone mentions Bruce G. I’ll think of a little kid sticking his fingers in his ears and running to another room to avoid hearing things he doesn’t like. lol. See ya later.“
“I’m sending from here in case the other didn’t go through. I’m not whining Bruce. All you had to do was ask. I’ll always remember you though as a little kid shoving his fingers into his ears and running away because he is hearing things he doesn’t like. lol. You are too much ha ha.”
Evidently, he thought I needed to hear this twice. I know I’m a little slow these days 😂😂
Well, you can probably figure out how I responded:
Go fuck yourself, Joe. You said your piece. I have no interest in talking with you further.
Let’s see if you can respect boundaries.
I quickly learned that Joe is a bully, someone who has no regard for personal boundaries.
What follows is a transcript of the emails he sent me and my responses:
Joe: Seriously— what makes you believe you can say something like that to someone and it’s totally OK? Is this how you normally address people you disagree with? I’m actually flabbergasted [sic]. Unbelievable.
I guess you’ll use this now with your laughing emojis. That’s cool. Be my guest. See ya.”
Bruce: No, I’ll just tell you again, Joe, fuck off 🍆🍆🍆🍆. Second request, don’t contact me again.
Joe: “Go f&$&#k yourself Joe? Really? For quoting 1John 2:19? And then you put up your own article where you allow someone to quote it once again? OK— carry on. I feel no need to curse you back. God bless you.”
Bruce: Once again, Joe, fuck off. Third request, please do not contact me.
Joe: “Can I have your permission to quote you? I’m writing a chapter for a book on abnormal psychology and your statement would fit in well. They ask to get approval first though. I probably wouldn’t include the four purple thingies, but your statement would work great as a segue into the next chapter. Let me know. And thanks!”
Bruce: “No, I’ll just tell you again, Joe, fuck off 🍆🍆🍆🍆. Fourth request, don’t contact me again.
You are officially being a passive-aggressive bully.
Thank you for proving exactly the kind of man you really are; someone who has no regard for boundaries; someone who thinks he can control how people respond to him.”
Today, I woke up to two more emails from Joe. I did not respond to them.
Joe: Bruce— you are too much. You tell me to f@#@#k off and then say it’s ME who is showing who they really are? You are the control freak not me. Whose “boundaries”? You are the one with the Blog. I won’t contact you again. But seriously Bruce, get some psychological help. If you think it is your “right” to tell people to f$#&$k off you have some SERIOUS mental problems.
Joe: I forgot to add one thing: you are shooting yourself in the foot Bruce. Anyone can clearly see YOU are being the bully not me. I will send no further emails. It’s hard NOT to respond when someone tells you to f#$&$k off. It’s called being human.
As you can see, Joe is a Jesus-loving, Bible-believing (but, not practicing) passive-aggressive bully. As Sage, a long-time reader and my friend (she encourages me to take up pole dancing as Santa, the Stripper) :), observed, Joe is skilled at gaslighting:
You are quite skilled at gaslighting. Someone takes offense to your analogy, and point out how it fails, then you respond by claiming they are the problem and they need fix their views. That is classic gaslighting – when someone questions you, attack them and try to belittle them. You even carry it over to a different post, praising one poster while belittling the other. Now Michael,is the “good” deconvert and Sage is the “Bad” deconvert.
I clearly understood the point you were making. I even gave you ways to make the same point without using slavery. But it appears you are so determined to defend yourself and your analogy that you justify any type method to dismiss Sage. I have called you out as judgemental. I haven’t attacked you personally, I’ve attacked your analogy. You respond by attacking me personally, belittling me, gaslighting me, dismissing me and hope that doing so will destroy my point, or leave me unable to argue with you
I made a good faith effort to respond to and interact with Joe. He “seemed” like a decent Christian. However, after fifteen years of responding to countless Joes, I know that decent, thoughtful Evangelicals are few and far in between. Such people are typically “nice” until they are challenged or someone says something they don’t like. Then they reveal their true character. Such was the case with Joe. His comments became more hostile, more personal. I tried, as did others, to correct his factual errors, to no avail. Joe knows what he knows, end of discussion. Joe began his interaction with me saying that I never was a Christian and I was headed for Hell, and his interaction with me ended the same way.
Joe’s upset that I told him to “go fuck himself.” Tough shit. No one is going to control what I say or the language I use. I rarely tell people to “fuck off,” but in Joe’s case, it was warranted. Occasionally, a reader will object to me using curse words. Evangelicals, in particular, seem to have their freaking 🙂 sensibilities offended when someone tells them to go fornicate with themselves. I suspect there are times that I deliberately tell Evangelicals to “fuck off” because I know doing so riles them up. I do the same with some of my letters to the editor of the local newspaper. I call it “poking the bear.” Poked Evangelicals will quickly show that they are not Holy Spirit-controlled or following in the steps of Jesus. In Joe’s case, I was genuinely angered by his personal attacks on me, his refusal to accept my story at face value, and his unwillingness to admit that he was wrong. I corrected him three times, using facts and evidence easily found on the Internet, but Joe just doubled down and refused to admit he had erred.
I’ve dealt with scores of Joes over the years. In that time, I have taken various approaches to the Joes of the world: full engagement, limited engagement, or I just ignore them. I respond to every email I receive — thousands of them over the past fifteen years. In Joe’s case, I answered numerous emails from him before saying “enough.” I was thoughtful, honest, and open until he became aggressive and started making things personal. It was then, and only then, that I told him to “go fuck himself.” Joe asking to quote me in a book (a story I don’t believe is true) was nothing more than a threat of exposure. I am a public figure, so Joe is free to write or say anything he wants about me. I am quoted in several books written by Evangelicals. None of them asked me for permission to quote me (nor did they let me know they had done so). I am a big believer in personal responsibility, so I own my words; all of them, including telling someone to “fuck off.” Have I ever said things I shouldn’t have? Yep, and in every instance, I have owned my words, apologized, and, if warranted, changed what I had written. But, apologizing for telling a passive-aggressive bully and gaslighter to “fuck off”? Not a chance . . .
Joe’s ultimate attack came when he suggested I have mental health problems. Why? Because I told him to “go fuck himself.” 🙂 🙂 🙂 Joe doesn’t care about my mental health. If he did, he would have behaved differently. Regular readers know, of course, that I have been seeing a secular psychologist for a decade. Not one time have I been told that I needed to clean up my gosh darn 🙂 language. (Please see Evangelical Swear Words.) I just talked to my therapist today. We talked about real stuff; you know: gastroparesis, fibromyalgia, osteoarthritis, chronic pain, trauma, and how my Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) upbringing caused untold trauma and harm, to me, my wife, and my grown children. You know, REAL issues.
I am sure Joe won’t like what I have written here. I’m sure he will send me at least one email to register his outrage. If he does, I will post his email below.
Thank you for reading. I appreciate your love and support.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
They want to do something immoral with impunity.This type of person wants to do something immoral that is forbidden by Christianity, like pre-marital sex or getting drunk in clubs with friends. They dump Christianity in order to have freedom to seek happiness in this life.
They want to make decisions based on their emotions, rather than wisdom.This type of person thinks that God’s job is to save them when they act irresponsibly. When God disappoints them by not make their recklessness “work out”, they leave the faith.
They want to be loved by people, not by God. This type of person thinks that Christianity is a tool that they can use to become popular. When they first try to articulate the gospel in public, they find that people don’t like them as much, and they feel bad about offending people with exclusive truth claims that they cannot back up using logic and evidence. So, they water down Christianity to get along with non-Christians. Finally, they jettison Christianity completely. This happens to a lot of young Christians the moment they hit college/university.
They don’t want to learn to defend their faith.This type of person is asked questions by skeptics that they cannot answer. Usually, this happens when people go to university after growing up in the shelter of the Church. The questions and peer pressure make them feel stupid. Rather than investigate Christianity to see if it’s true, they drop it, so they can be thought of as part of the “smart” crowd.
Let’s see, I have been married for forty-three years and I’ve never fucked anyone but my wife. I have no “secret” desires to sin. In fact, I suspect my godless life is quite Christian. Outside of my use of swear words, my TV viewing habits, and my love of whiskey, I am as moral and ethical as any Christian (not a very high standard, to be sure). Does Wintery Knight really want to get in a dick measuring contest to see who is more moral and ethical? (Please see the Black Collar Crime Series.) Wintery Knight thinks that Evangelicals-turned-atheists wanted to fuck with impunity (remember, it’s always about sex for Evangelicals) and that’s why they deconverted. Is that how it was for you? We can only wish, right? 🙂
Wintery Knight says Evangelicals-turned-atheists made decisions based on emotion, and when these decisions didn’t work out, they blamed God and deconverted. Was that the case for any of you? And let me be clear, all decisions are emotion-based. Humans are emotional creatures. “Wisdom” is a word used by Evangelicals to describe “thinking as God thinks” or “making decisions according to the Bible.” Atheists understand that we make the choices we do because we want to. Sometimes these decisions work out, sometimes they don’t. That’s life. I am almost sixty-five years old. I have made thousands of decisions in my lifetime. Good, bad, and indifferent. Unlike my wife, Polly, I have little problem making decisions. I spent most of my life working management-level jobs. Decision-making was expected of me. I have made some colossal mistakes over the years. Just ask Polly. 🙂 At no time as a Christian did I ever blame God when things didn’t turn out as I expected. (I asked WHERE was God in the post Dear Jesus, but I never blamed God for anything. I was a Calvinist, after all. Everything in my life was decreed by God, including my deconversion.) 🙂
Wintery Knight thinks Evangelicals-turned-atheists viewed Christianity as a way to become popular. Really? I mean, really? Does this remotely resemble your experience? Wintery Knight goes on to apply the slippery slope argument to Evangelicals-turned-atheists. We tried “to articulate the gospel in public,” found out [unsaved] people didn’t like us as much [duh, who likes someone who (unsolicited) interjects religion and politics in social settings?], and felt bad about offending people. So, we watered down Christianity to get along with unbelievers, and finally we “jettison [ed] Christianity completely.” I don’t know of one Evangelical-turned-atheist who would say Wintery Knight’s claim is true.
And finally, Wintery Knight says that Evangelicals-turned-atheists didn’t want to learn how to defend the faith; that they felt stupid when asked questions by unbelievers; so they deconverted so they could be considered part of the “smart crowd.”
Evidently, Wintery Knight hasn’t talked to many, if any, Evangelicals-turned-atheists. Most of the former Christians who read this blog are actually quite conversant in all things Christianity. They read and studied the Bible for years. In my case, I read the Bible from cover to cover numerous times. I spent thousands and thousands of hours reading and studying the Bible — roughly twenty hours a week. All told, I preached 4,000 sermons. I can safely say that I know the Bible inside and out. And I can say the same for the ex-Evangelical pastors, evangelists, missionaries, youth directors, worship leaders, college professors, and deacons, to name a few, who frequent this site. We left Christianity with full knowledge and eyes wide open.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
What follows is Erwin Lutzer’s one-minute challenge to atheists. Lutzer is an Evangelical preacher and author, the former pastor of The Moody Church in Chicago, Illinois.
Lutzer’s one-minute challenge is the stupidest, funniest thing I have ever heard uttered by an Evangelical preacher — and that’s saying a lot. 🙂
Let me know in the comment section if you think Lutzer’s challenge has any merit. I suspect every atheist, agnostic, pagan, universalist, Satanist, and other non-Christians will say no — that is after they get up off the floor from all their laughing. Trust me, Lutzer’s challenge is really, really, really d-u-m-b.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Recently, Oscar Amaechina, the president of Afri-Mission and Evangelism Network in Abuja, Nigeria, shared with the readers of The Christian Post what Evangelicals should do for atheists, people he labels fools.
Some people believe that the world is governed by chance, not by God, and that morality is man-made, not divine. This ideology did not start today. David identified atheists and called them fools: “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’.” This verse in fact occurs in two passages in the Psalms (14:1 and 53:1).
It is obvious that one of the characteristics of fools is that they do not believe in the existence of God. Their statements do not literally deny the existence of God but give them the impetus to continue in their wicked ways. These people are not only foolish but wicked as well. They’ve come to believe that God does not exist and that they are not accountable to Him at the end of their journey here on earth. This belief has given them the license to live freely and do what pleases them.
The unfortunate thing is that more and more people are joining them. Are they possessed by the devil? I do not think so because even the devil and his demons know that God exists: “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe — and shudder!” (James 2:19). What could make man deny the existence of his creator?
It is obvious that the devil cannot outrightly tell anyone not to believe in God but can bring about circumstances and events that can create doubt in the mind of believers. So many in the Church nowadays claim that God exists, but do not revere or fear Him. When the custodians of the Gospel are playing games and politics with God, how do we expect followers and unbelievers to take Christianity seriously? “As it is written: ‘God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you’” (Romans 2:24).
In addition to this, when church leaders are robbing congregants in the name of God, what kind of testimony is that to the unbelieving world? In my country, many people are leaving the church because they have been shortchanged by their pastors. There is a trending news item about a pastor in Nigeria who is selling rapture tickets at the rate of $751 to Christians who want to go to Heaven. The world sees this and turns its back on the Church.
Hermeneutical perversion of the Word of God is another factor that contributes to the growth of atheism. When worldly messages are regularly preached, and fake promises are made to worshipers, people tend to be disillusioned. And when lies are dished from the pulpit, believers are inevitably pushed down the road of apostasy.
Most people who say that there is no God do not know what they are doing. Christians should emulate Christ and pray for them on a regular basis and ask God to forgive them. Instead of condemning and attacking atheists, we should regularly intercede for the mercy of God to triumph over the judgment that they are inflicting on themselves. A little act of Christian kindness and love of Christ can go a long way in making atheists see the presence of God in our lives. Instead of getting into drawn-out arguments with them, we should kindly and respectful engage with them.
Jesus died for all, and salvation is for all. Too many image-bearers of God are being destroyed for lack of knowledge. For us to attract atheists to the saving knowledge of Christ, we must regularly intercede for them, show them love and kindness and tell them the truth about our God.
According to Oscar Amaechina:
Atheists are fools. Why? The Bible says they are.
Atheists believe the universe is governed by chance.
Atheists believe morality is a human construct.
Atheists are “wicked.”
Atheists believe they can live any way they want without consequences.
Atheists are influenced by Satan, causing them to question and doubt the existence of the Christian God.
Atheists don’t take Christianity seriously because of the bad behavior of many Christians.
Atheists don’t believe in God due to hermeneutical perversion (a new term, for me) of the Bible by preachers. (I’m more into normal perversion.) 🙂
Most atheists don’t know what they are doing.
Amaechina then tells Christians what they should do when engaging atheists:
They should emulate Christ. You know, WWJD?
They should daily pray for atheists, interceding before God on their behalf.
They should ask their mythical God to forgive atheists.
Amaechina tells Christians to NOT engage atheists in lengthy discussions. Why is that? Shouldn’t Evangelicals be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within them? Shouldn’t they be ready to defend the faith once delivered to the saints? Amaechina wrongly thinks atheists are ignorant about Evangelical beliefs. While that may be the case in some corners of the atheistverse, here at this site, we are quite conversant in all things Christian. We know our Bibles inside and out. I was part of the Christian church for fifty years. I was an Evangelical pastor for twenty-five years. I read the Bible from cover to cover numerous times. I spent thousands and thousands of hours reading and studying the Bible, preaching 4,000 sermons during my ministerial career. Ignorant, I am not, and the same can be said of many of the readers of this blog.
So, to Amaechina I say this: leave off your phony “love them to Jesus” methodology. Bring your A-game and let’s dig into the things you say you believe. Stop standing on the sidelines, calling atheists names, and lying about their beliefs and motivations. Come into the lion’s den, Pastor Amaechina. I’m licking my chops . . .
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Yesterday, I had a brief, unproductive — aren’t they all? — email interaction with an Evangelical man named Joe. Joe wrote to complain about a video I posted titled Ten Reasons Why You Should NEVER Celebrate Halloween:
I read your comments about Halloween and Awaken L.A. church. I am a member of the church and do not hold to what the video teaches. It does not represent the church at all. Most members haven’t even seen the video. I loved Halloween as a child and had loads of fun going door to door collecting candy. Personally I see no harm in dressing up and “trick or treating”.
The only harm I could see would be a small child idolizing Killers and dressing up like them (Freddy Krueger for example). As a child we dressed up as hobos, pirates, etc with your occasional “dracula”– but it was a fun time. Children will make up their own minds one day– we don’t need to force them not to trick or treat, or be afraid of one-day a year.
I just wanted to add those comments as your article appears to label our church as some Cult-like group which it is not. The Halloween video is the product of one over-zealous member of the church with little wisdom or real understanding. As I said I hadn’t even seen this video until you posted it.
I responded:
Thank you for contacting me.
This video is on the official YouTube channel for Awaken L.A. If it doesn’t represent the official position of the church, then the video should be removed. I suggest you ask church leadership why the video is on the church’s channel and if it represents the official position of the church. You may have a different opinion, but that doesn’t mean your pastor (s) or church does.
Have a good week.
Joe replied:
Thank you. I will talk to our Pastor.
Joe then sent me this email:
I read “Bishop’s Roulette”. One question: if the “majority” of people think as you do in America, how can Donald Trump be elected again? Or is your math just a bit off?
I didn’t respond to this email. Maybe MJ Lisbeth, the author of the Bishop’s Roulette article, will answer Joe in the comment section.
And then he sent me this email:
I read your blog about Midwestern Bible College. You mention you are the only one you know who became an atheist. It reminded me– out of all the students who attended my graduating class at Canoga Park High School here in California, only ONE has driven off a cliff to his death.
I responded:
Really? I mean, really? For fuck’s sake, are you trying to say that me leaving Christianity is akin to someone driving off a cliff to kill themselves?
Do better, Joe, do better.
Joe replied:
I promise no more messages (unless it’s OK with you) but I am very curious about you.
Have you ever read the book by Jean Messlier the Roman Catholic Priest who served his whole life in the Catholic church and then died? I’ve forgotten the Title of his book, but Voltaire loved it.
After he died they found his memoirs and he pronounced his atheism clearly. I read the book and found it to be fascinating. It was hard to believe he had spent his life as a priest if he never really believed any of what he was teaching.
I thought “is that possible”? Then I saw your story. Preach for 50 years then become an atheist? 2 years maybe, but 50 years?? But then I realized that 1 John 2:19 does not have a time limit to it. It simply says “They went out from us to show that they were NEVER really of us”. Pretty clear– no time frame given. I know you “believe” you were once a truly born again person–sanctified and saved. But 1 John 2: 19 shows that when one goes forth and denies the faith they are “showing clearly” that what they claim is simply not true.
Is that possible though? I think Jean Messlier proves it can be so. Messlier had “left” the church in spirit many years earlier. He only stayed because the church was his whole life. When he died though he revealed his heart.
I know my quoting 1 John 2:19 might anger you. But is is right there in the Bible.
I would be interested in corresponding a bit with you if possible. Dan Barker wrote a book called “Losing faith in faith”. Interesting title actually. Not “Losing faith in Jesus”– no, its “Losing faith in faith”. It speaks VOLUMES. I would just be interested in asking you some questions. I find deconverts to be fascinating.
I responded:
It’s impossible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who refuses to accept my story at face value; someone who can dismissively wave away my life with a quote of a Bible verse.
Fact: I once was a Christian and now I am not. Your inability to square that with your theology is your problem, not mine.
You say you are a Christian. Imagine if I said, “no you are not.” Right here in Harry Potter 6:66 it says you never were a Christian. Imagine me dismissing your story out of hand. No matter what you said, I replied, Harry Potter 6:66 says . . .
I hope you understand and appreciate how offensive your line of questioning really is.
Let me add, your comment betrays a lack of imagination, a lack of understanding of theological systems other than yours.
Joe replied:
I accept your story Bruce. I really believe you believe you were truly a Christian. A true Christian believes the Word of God. And perhaps you “used” to believe it. One is “born again” by believing the Word. But what if one in reality never really believed it? Intellectually they held to it– but from the heart they always doubted?
Is that possible? Yes– it is. For example: Jehovahs Witnesses intellectually assent to the Word. But they are not “born again”. They follow “the letter” but not “the Spirit”.One could be a Jehovah’s Witness for 50 years and not be truly “saved”. Yes–its possible.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are sincere. But they are sincerely wrong. Because I AM a Christian I believe the Word. And it says in 1 John 2:19 that those who abandon the faith were never really of the faith– or they wouldn’t LEAVE it. There is no Harry Potter 6:66 in reality. But there IS a 1 John 2:19. And I believe it is God’s Word. I don’t dismiss your story. It’s real. It’s just that what you state is fantasy– you never were a true Christian. By leaving the Faith you PROVE that to be true.
Joe added:
Yes. To me leaving Christianity is like driving off a cliff. To have been SO close to Heaven and then turn back like those in Hebrews 6:4-6 is insanity. Being the “only one” from your school to become an atheist is no badge of honor. The people in Hebrews 6:4-6 are rare. But I would not want to be one of them. That’s for sure.
I did not respond to his last two emails. Why bother, right?
Another fruitless conversation with an obtuse, tone-deaf Evangelical Christian. Joe says he is interested in “understanding” the stories of people who leave Christianity, but this simply is not so. He just could not bring himself to understand my story at “face value,” — as factually true. Instead of accepting as true that I once was a Christian, Joe says I might have thought I was a Christian, but the Bible says otherwise. His mind is closed off from any worldview or belief system but his own. This is what Fundamentalism does to a person, robbing them of the ability to see things as they are. By any objective standard, I was a Christian, a child of God, one who was born from above. I pastored thousands of people over the years and was friends with numerous Evangelical pastors, missionaries, evangelists, and other church leaders. Not one person EVER said, “Bruce Gerencser is not a Christian.” Either I was a master of deception, deceiving thousands of people into believing I was a follower of Jesus, or I was who and what I said I was.
No matter what I say, Joe knows better. Why? The BIBLE says . . .
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Evangelicals are fond of putting words into the mouths of atheists. They “know” the real reasons atheists don’t believe in the existence of God. They claim to know our real motives, our secret desires. It is any wonder, then, that atheists tell Evangelicals to “fuck off”? When an Evangelical shares her testimony with me, I accept what she says at face value. I don’t question her motivations, nor do I suggest that I know the real reason she is a Christian.
Last week, Answers in Genesis trotted out Liz Abrams as the latest Evangelical who “knows” the inside scoop about atheists. According to Abrams, deep, deep, deep in their heart of hearts, atheists believe in the Christian God.
Here’s what she had to say:
Atheists claim to disbelieve in God. However, if one digs down deep, one finds that professing atheists can’t really escape the knowledge of God. And this is encouraging for Christians who want to share the good news with them. Here are three ways atheists cannot escape the knowledge of God.
1. The Atheist Bears the Image of God
The atheist, like every other human being, is created in the image of God. This means he is designed for relationship with his Creator, has an inbuilt moral sensibility, and will live for eternity in either heaven or hell.
Every person has the sense that death is wrong—that we shouldn’t just cease to exist. Death feels wrong because God didn’t design us to die; we die because of sin. Everyone at some point or another has the longing for eternity. It wouldn’t make sense for us to get that desire from an evolutionary process that requires death and suffering.
Atheists hold a variety of odd ideas that they think might enable humans to beat mortality. From uploading their consciousness to the cloud to putting their bodies in a deep freeze and awaiting the day when medical technology can revive them, some atheists try to think of any way possible to eventually get around the fact of death.
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2. The Atheist Borrows God’s Moral Standards and Logic
For Christians, the image of God gives every human being intrinsic value. But atheists have nothing that gives humans inherent value. If life is just nature’s way of keeping food fresh, universal morality makes no sense. The only moral law is to do whatever helps your genes make the jump to the next generation. Does monogamy help your offspring have a better start, giving your genes a more established path forward? Does polygamy give your genes more hosts in the next generation? Does promiscuity give you even more chances at reproduction? Does locking your wife up ensure that any children she has are yours? It doesn’t take that much contemplation to see that a purely evolutionary ethic would be horrific. A consistent evolutionist in this area belongs in a mental institution or prison!
Most atheists don’t go around murdering people—why? Many atheists would scoff at the question and claim, “I don’t need God to be good!” But their statement assumes that objective good exists. The only objective good that exists in an evolutionary world is that the fittest survive and reproduce. Why is it good to be faithful to your wife? Who gave us an inbuilt sense that it’s wrong to murder and steal? Theft and murder could be evolutionarily beneficial in certain circumstances!
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3. The Atheist Hates God
Atheists often display more than a “benign” unbelief. There is an overt hostility to Christians and things pertaining to the faith. It does not take much searching to find blasphemous literature and works of “art.”
The fact that an atheist’s disbelief in God sometimes becomes their entire identity shows that there is more to it than casual disbelief. Almost no one today believes Thor exists, but there aren’t any anti-Thor movements. The fact that this vitriolic attitude is reserved only for the God of the Bible is revealing. There are many people alive today who believe in the Muslim god, Allah, but atheists are not nearly as strident in their opposition to a religion that is, in many ways, much more restrictive than Christianity. When an atheist starts railing against how he perceives God has been unfair or wrong from his point of view, that is as ridiculous as being disappointed that the tooth fairy didn’t give him enough money under his pillow.
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Loving Atheists
It is understandable that some Christians see atheists as our enemies. They oppose us in the public square, attempt to convert our children to unbelief, and they say some unpleasant things about Christians. But Jesus said to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us (Matthew 5:44)—how much more should we pray for and love atheists?
So, what do we do when we encounter atheists? First, we should obey Jesus and share the good news of the gospel with them, as well as pray that God will work in their hearts. We can open our homes and build relationships with them in the hope that God will reach them through us. We should openly talk about our faith and attempt to win them. And when an atheist starts trying to convert others, we should be ready to oppose and refute them.
Being used by God to bring someone to Christ is an amazing feeling, and we know that there will be many former atheists in heaven—some are even associated with this ministry! And that is usually because a Christian cared enough about them to engage with them and persistently share the gospel.
According to Abrams:
Deep down, atheists really believe in the Christian God
Atheists are created in the image of the Christian God
Atheists borrow their morals and logic from Christianity (the Bible) and some of them belong in mental institutions or prisons for their “wrong” moral beliefs.
Atheists hate the Christian God
Abrams, of course, provides no empirical evidence for her claims. At best, she miserably tries to make a few philosophical arguments. At worst, as the presuppositionalist she is, Abrams makes bald assertions, demanding you accept them without evidence.
Abrams is being untruthful when she says “atheists hate God.” I don’t know of one atheist who “hates God.” Why would atheists hate a being they don’t believe exists? That would be downright silly. Abrams, as most Evangelicals do, confuses atheist hatred for some expressions of religion (including Islam and Hinduism) with hatred for their mythical deity. Atheists focus their hatred on Evangelical institutions, and, if warranted, Evangelical preachers. If Abrams wants to know if I hate (using the term in a colloquial sense of really, really, really dislike) Answers in Genesis, Ken Ham, and countless Evangelical churches, parachurch ministries, and preachers, the answer is a resounding YES!. My goal as a writer is to burn Evangelicalism to the ground, not because of who Evangelicals worship, but because of what they do in the name of that God. My hatred is reserved for Evangelical behavior, not their mythical deity. I focus on what is real, and what matters.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Last Friday, I was interviewed by Doug Berger for the Glass City Humanist Podcast. The podcast is a production of the Secular Humanists of Western Lake Erie. I spoke for their in-person group meeting several weeks ago. If you didn’t have a chance to watch the video, you can check it out here:
Please let me know what you think in the comment section. Be nice. 🙂
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
From time to time, I approve comments from a Fundamentalist Christian man who uses the “Revival Fires” pseudonym. He uses numerous other names and fake email addresses, but I change the name on his comments to Revival Fires. I don’t want people to think Jim, Bob, James, et al are different commenters. They are not. Revival Fires has a style, so as much as he tries to hide who he is, I can spot his comments as easily as a pink elephant standing in the middle of my living room.
In the past, I have deleted comments from the Revival Fires of the world (after their first comment). Of late, I have dialed my moderation back a bit, choosing to let Revival Fires and other Christian zealots whip out their metaphorical dicks and expose themselves to the world. I do this for one reason: I want readers to see firsthand the ugly, vicious, vile underbelly of Evangelicalism. And most importantly, I want readers to understand that Revival Fires is not an outlier, an exception to the rule. Millions of Evangelicals believe just as Revival Fires does. Oh, they are not as uncouth and ill-bred as Revival Fires, but their beliefs are similar to his. Most Evangelicals have learned the fine art of hiding their hate, homophobia, and bigotry. Most Evangelicals support Trumpism and establishing a Christian theocracy governed by the Bible (as interpreted by them, of course). Privately, they disparage LGBTQ people, call abortion murder, and support all sorts of racist policies. The only difference between them and Revival Fires is that they have an outward form of manners, the equivalent of “bless your heart” in the deep south. Behind closed doors, they promote all sorts of beliefs and practices which, if allowed, will cause untold harm to people different from them. The most dangerous people in America are not Muslims. That title goes to Evangelicals, especially those who live on the far-right edge of the Evangelical tent. Left to their own devices, Evangelicals will take over America for God — their God — enact Christian sharia law, and drag our nation back to the good old days of the 1950s. (Please see The Evangelical Plan to Return the United States to the 1950s.) We trust them at our own peril.
Back to Revival Fires’ comments. Do his comments bother you or make you less likely to read this blog? I think his (he is a male) comments are instructive and help expose Evangelicalism for what it is, but I don’t want to drive regular readers away.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Today I am going to make a confession. (How Catholic of me, right?)
As I’ve mentioned in earlier guest posts, I was raised a Roman Catholic and, in my late adolescence and early adulthood, “gave my life to Jesus” and became an Evangelical Christian. My belief was eroded, if you will, by a combination of reading, study, and experiences that included finally coming to terms with my gender identity, sexuality, and the sexual abuse I experienced from a priest. I didn’t have a moment when I blurted, “I am an atheist!” or even “I don’t believe.” Rather, I realized that, somewhere along the way, I’d lost whatever faith I had.
Even so, I made one final attempt to be part of a “faith community.” For about a year and a half, I attended services at a church that would have appalled both the Catholics among whom I grew up and the Evangelicals to whom I professed my devotion to “the Lord.” (When I say that, I think of all of those African-Americans and women I’ve heard referring to “The Man.”) At the suggestion of someone whom I esteemed, and still do, I attended the services and participated in the programs of an “accepting” congregation.
I worked with someone I’ll call “Jenna” in helping to feed un-housed people. She told me she was an atheist but got involved with the church for “social reasons.” One day, I asked her to explain. The church did charitable work in areas that were of particular interest to her, she said. That work included in LGBTQ equality and helping folks in places like the Horn of Africa and Southeast Asia. Doing it under the auspices of the church “signaled” — she used that word — that she was “walking the walk.” Jenna’s family and friends didn’t take her work seriously — or believe she was doing it, especially the LGBTQ outreach — out of anything more than self-interest or money — never mind that she was a volunteer and used her own money to go to those places where she helped people, and to buy food, clothing and other items for the un-housed in our city — until she started working with the church. But she also admitted that being involved with the church spared her from having to explain her atheism to family members, co-workers, and others who wouldn’t have been sympathetic.
Likewise, that church legitimized, at least in the eyes of some people, the volunteer work I did in animal welfare, adult literacy, and LGBTQ equality. About the latter: I hadn’t yet come to affirm (or, in the parlance of the time, “change” or “transition”) my gender identity. But the church, which was among the first to hold funerals for victims of the HIV outbreak, gave me the “cover,” if you will, I wanted and needed in order to help people like me and to claim that it wasn’t about self-interest. Not only did my church involvement legitimize the work I was doing; but it also deflected the suspicions some people had about me. Hey, I didn’t even try to set some of my relatives and in-laws right (I almost said “straight” but the pun would have been too obvious!) when they expressed the hope that I would “meet somebody nice” and get married right on my second try.
Well, there would be no second try for marriage. Later, I did get involved in a relationship with a woman — whom I didn’t meet at church — and we lived under the protections of that document people associated with gay couples — the domestic partnership agreement — for several years. One funny thing, in retrospect, about that partnership is that it, like my church involvement, gave me “cover,” even among my conservative relatives and in-laws, at least for a time.
After being an atheist for, probably, about 30 years — roughly half of my life — I have come to realize how much legitimacy is conferred on all sorts of things done in the context of a church or other faith community by someone who professes his or her belief but is denied to those who do the same work without the imprimatur of religion. Also, there are some ceremonies and passages that are legitimized, by societal standards and even the law, by a declaration of faith or the “witness” of the faithful. Have you ever seen anyone take an oath of office without placing his or her hand on a Bible and ending his or her pledge with “So help me God” or words to that effect? And, even though conservative religious folks howl when cities, states, or countries tell people they can marry whomever they want as long as they are of age, those couples-to-be, whether they are two of the traditionally-defined sexes or nonbinary, are as likely as not to exchange their vows in a place of worship. Why? Sometimes they are trying to make their unions more palatable to prospective in-laws. Or one or both members of the couple may have grown up in the church and it is, therefore, the one place where everyone whom they’d want at their ceremony can gather. Another reason is convenience: while one can be legally married by a county clerk or some other secular official, getting married in a church or synagogue or other worship sites “kills two birds with one stone”: it sanctifies the union in the eyes of some and, in most places, makes the marriage legal, as, typically, the minister, priest or other officiating clergy member signs, along with other two other witnesses, the marriage license certificate shortly after the ceremony ends.
Knowing what I’ve just described, I am especially worried that far-right Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians, as well as conservative Catholics and their counterparts in other churches and religions, will try to make their churches — and, possibly, baptisms or professions of faith — the only way to give or receive charitable gifts or works. This is more or less the case already in Utah, where public benefits are among the lowest and most difficult to obtain in the US. As in most other states, caseworkers refer people who’ve been denied benefits to other organizations — including churches.
In the Beehive State, most roads to such assistance lead to the Church of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons). People in need are thus subject to “bishop’s roulette.” Some officials are generous with their help. Others, however, are more rigid and judgmental, especially with LGBTQ people and single mothers, who are often assumed to be “sinners” who had their children out of wedlock. Or, if they are willing to help, it’s on the condition that the person in need reads aloud from texts, attends church, or even sets up a date to be baptized.
When the intentions of churches and other religious institutions are assumed to be noble or pure, they lend legitimacy, in the eyes of many, to charitable work — or the denial of charity. Never mind that prelates and others in the church use their power to bully those same people they help, or choose not to help, or those who do the helping. For now, I am living in a safely “blue” state where, while some religious groups have political influence, they don’t hold nearly as much power as the Mormons have in Utah—or religious conservatives, whether on the Supreme Court or in local school boards, want. And for now, at least, most young people want little or no truck with religious institutions. Still, I worry that while the proportion of religious conservatives in the total population is shrinking, their influence is growing as they become more virulent and vicious. I hope that one day I won’t have to proclaim faith I don’t have, join a church whose motives I can see all too clearly, or simply deny who I am, to get help I may need—or just to be allowed to rescue cats. And I hope those young people won’t have to be similarly duplicitous in order to get education, jobs, or housing because they ran into an admissions officer, HR Department, or loan provider who believes it is more important to “save souls” than to help. In short, I hope none of us become unwilling subjects in “bishop’s roulette.”
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.