The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser

Bruce, Satan Has Tricked You

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Bruce Gerencser

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Recently, a Christian man named Mike sent me the following email:

I read a quote you made online…”All I ask, as I did of this woman, is that people at least make an honest effort to get to know me.”

OK Bruce…How would you describe yourself to me? Your beliefs, what you stand for, etc.

I responded:

Mike,

I don’t do phone calls. (He had also included his phone number.)

You will likely find your questions answered here: https://brucegerencser.net/why/

If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Bruce Gerencser

After reading a handful of posts, Mike was ready to render judgment:

I pray that the God you preached about all those years will pierce your heart and bring you back to Him, as well as all the people you have influence over. After reading some on your website, I am afraid that Satan has tricked you, like so many, that you don’t need God.

Eternity is to long to be wrong. Heaven and Hell are real places, and we ALL will spend eternity in one or the other.

Cranky Curmudgeon Bruce (please see I Make No Apologies for Being a Curmudgeon) responded:

Fuck off, asshole.

That’s all you can say? Reductionist bullshit told to me by hundreds and hundreds of Christians?

Do better, Mike. Think, listen, read, and learn. You don’t know as much as you think you do. I know how many posts you read (server logs don’t lie). Can you really say you made a good faith effort to read and understand my story? Or did you read just enough to pass judgment?

I may use your email as fodder for a blog post. I’ll send you the link if I do.

God bless.

Bruce Gerencser

Mike did not respond to me.

Mike ignores the fact that I am an atheist, so suggesting that I am being “tricked” by Satan is, to put it mildly, a joke. I don’t believe in the existence of the Christian God, nor do I believe in the existence of Satan. As a man on the short side of life (please see Giving In When It’s The Only Thing You Can Do), I have thought a good bit about death. As an atheist, I am confident that once I draw my last breath, my life is over. While I will live on in the minds of my family and friends, my cremated remains will be sprinkled by my loved ones on the eastern shore of Lake Michigan.

As is often the case with Christian zealots, Mike passive-aggressively threatens me with Hell. According to Mike’s theological beliefs, Heaven and Hell are real places. People who have beliefs different from him will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire (Hell is a temporary holding cell, which God casts into the Lake of Fire, Revelation 20:14). Outside of the Bible, there’s no evidence for the existence of Heaven or Hell. In fact, there’s ample evidence that such places are fictional, tools used to reward and threaten people by churches and clerics. As an atheist, I do no fear going to Hell. And, I have no desire to go to Heaven. Why would I want to spend eternity with the Mikes and David Tees of the world? No thanks.

Mike believes that Satan has tricked me into believing that I don’t need God. Unlike Mike, I don’t need a psychological crutch to make it through the day. I can’t think of one aspect of my life where I “need” God. The only time I think about God is when I write for this blog. That’s it. I choose, instead, to focus on the present, life as it is.

Mike could have made a good faith effort to get to know me and understand my story. He could have asked me questions after reading my autobiographical posts. Instead, Mike went into preaching mode. Whether he had a pathological need to do so or felt “led” by the Holy Spirit, I do not know. Over the years, countless Evangelicals have taken a similar approach with me. If they were willing (and they are not) to take a bit of advice from a reprobate/apostate/atheist, I would tell them that this approach does not work; that if the goal is to engage in thoughtful discussion with me or learn more about my story, you might try a different approach.

Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.

Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.

You can email Bruce via the Contact Form.

Comments

49 responses to “Bruce, Satan Has Tricked You”

  1. Avatar
    dale m.

    Tell him Victor Belenko got the same treatment as you are getting now. He was one of the Soviet Union’s top pilots but defected to the West carrying with him their top fighter interceptor, the MiG-25 Fox Bat. Soviet officials interviewed him under Japanese guard telling him his life was over unless he came back into the fold. They told him he was sick and the Americans were taking advantage of him, filling his head with lies and that his loved ones missed him (they did not). They said to him that if he did not come back, he would be considered a traitor and would be banished forever from the Motherland, his only true home and salvation. They told him that his new found freedom was empty. That he could only be truly free in the Motherland to serve the State. He almost broke. Don’t forget. This is the way he was brought up, to bow and serve an unflinching, inerrant State (higher authority). Throw this back at anyone who thinks individual freedom rather than serving a higher authority is a joke.

    Reply
    1. Avatar
      Kel

      Hi Dale, thanks for your great insight!

      I’ve been doubting my faith for a while now, partly due to the impossible standards Christians require of others (whilst simultaneously failing to fulfil those demands themselves). More often than not, I would then question my “right” to harbour such an objection. Am I being too selfish or arrogant to prioritise myself over the Law of God or the greater well-being of the society? Am I just too weak and lacking in discipline?

      I still find it very difficult to shake off the idea that the greater good of society, no matter how ridiculously nebulous it is, trumps individual freedom. Thanks so much for helping me put a finger on it!

      Reply
  2. Avatar
    Yulya Sevelova

    Wow ! Victor Belenko, a name I haven’t heard in a long,long time ! Given today’s tensions, and that fiasco in Geneva this afternoon, this is something to consider. Thanks for bringing him up, Dale M.

    Reply
  3. BJW

    Wow, Bruce. You even tell these fundie dudes what they need to do to have a serious conversation, and they just CAN. NOT. DO. IT.

    Reply
  4. MJ Lisbeth

    Dale–That’s a great analogy. Thomas Wolfe wrote “You Can’t Go Home Again.” It’s true because what is “home” changes.

    Yulya–Some things don’t change, do they?

    BJW–Is somoene like this Mike dude genetically incapable of a serious conversation? Or does immersion in lunatic interpretations of half-baked, warmed-over late Bronze Age myths destroy the parts of the brain that allow real dialogue?

    Reply
    1. Avatar
      Mike

      MJ…Be glad to converse in a serious conversation

      Reply
    2. BJW

      MJ, I remember having that mindset and it’s not pretty. Even so, by today’s standards I wouldn’t cut it. Because I told a woman I was giving Bible studies to that she needed birth control. She claimed she wasn’t going to have sex and WHOOPS, she did and after an abortion (that she didn’t believe in anyway), got pregnant again with the dude she was never going to sleep with. So she had 5 children that needed Child Protective Services supervision. I felt very sorry for her but thought she should be practical.

      Mike “knows” that the Bible is truth, so anything said from a different perspective is considered evil and worldly. There is no reaching someone who refuses to see any other POVs, even for the sake of a discussion.

      Reply
    3. Avatar
      Mike

      ◄ 2 Peter 3 ►
      New King James Version Par ▾
      God’s Promise Is Not Slack

      9The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

      Reply
      1. Avatar
        William

        Ah this old chestnut. If we look at the previous verse

        ‘But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.’ which is a reference to Psalm 40:4.

        The apostle Paul was convinced Jesus was coming back in his lifetime, but he hadn’t came back yet, despite the apoplectic period of Judaic history that Jesus was contemporary with. 2,000 years later, we are still waiting.

        Reply
      2. BJW

        Except Mike, we don’t care about you flinging Bible verses. That works more for Christians who are literalists. Who do you think we are? Okay, some of us are atheists, agnostics, Christians and other beliefs. We still aren’t too interested in you quoting the Bible as the be-all and end-all. You can find excellent philosophical quotes and other religions’ quotes in other sacred writings. We are capable of weighing what is good no matter what the source. At the same time, you should broaden your knowledge base.

        If there is a god I prefer to believe a true god of love towards man would either (1) make all our lives better while on earth, and/or (2) save all of mankind for an afterlife. Well, the first obviously isn’t happening at all, and the second can never be known. But the Christian god isn’t in the least bit truly interested in us, as it is willing to allow all kinds of horrible, terrible things to happen to the just and unjust. An all powerful god should at least be able to fix all of us. This idea that there is a god of love who also burns fallible humans forever? Totally, completely bullshit.

        Reply
      3. Avatar
        Astreja

        Cool story, Mike. Needs more dragons.

        Reply
      4. Avatar
        Bruce Gerencser

        Mike,

        So, that’s the best you can offer? I posted the comment guidelines for you to read. Evidently, you don’t think they apply to you. Respect, Mike, Respect.

        I wish you well, but I suspect we are NOT going to have a meaningful conversation.

        Be well.

        Brucr Gerencser

        Reply
  5. Avatar
    Bruce Gerencser

    When I publicly respond to someone, I typically send them a link to my post. Mike responded to my email. I won’t post his response here, but I will post mine. I suspect readers will be able to figure out what he said. I hope Mike will comment on this post.

    Here’s my reply:

    Please feel free to respond to the post on my site. I have no interest in having a private discussion with you. You burned that bridge to the ground. And friends? Are you fucking kidding me? Based on your emails, why would I ever want to be your acquaintance, let alone friend. You don’t get to decide if we are friends. That word matters to me. You use it in a promiscuous, cheap way.

    The answers you seek are easily found on my blog. Seek and ye shall find. I’ve written 4,000+ posts since December 2014. I’ve covered every question you might ask.

    There is no privacy when it comes to email. You might want to think twice about sending such emails to people who have no interest in receiving them. In other words, don’t shit on my doorstep and not expect a response (remember, you contacted me and I privately emailed you first before writing my response to you).

    I hope you will comment on my post. Readers would love to read your response.

    Bruce Gerencser

    Reply
  6. Avatar
    Kel

    Unfortunately, it always comes down to threats of eternal torment. I suspect that a great majority of the “preachy-types” do revel in the thought of their ideological enemies’ burning in Hell for eternity. They don’t actually care for your well-being, they only regard you as a potential ally in their holy war.

    And how could these people be absolutely sure that their version of God or faith is the correct one? What if they’re the ones being deceived by Satan or being subjected to a great delusion concocted by God? Let’s say that the traditional Catholics are correct – I assume our friend here is of the Protestant persuasion – every Protestant who ever lived and will ever live is consigned to burn for eternity in Inferno. Luther is probably gnashing his teeth right now while Calvin is weeping next to him.

    Reply
  7. Avatar
    Mike

    Bruce,

    As a friend, here are my thoughts:

    If you are going to post my name and comments, please be accurate. You don’t have permission to use my name or comments with our supporting facts and without your opinions. The fact is that I doubt there is anyone that can respond to you, where they use the Bible as their foundation, that you will accept. I am saddened at this.

    Blackburn did not respond to me.

    I haven’t had a chance to. I wanted to read more on your site and get to know you better as obviously you don’t think I read enough. Part of what I read was where your Mom slit her wrists, and finally succeeded at committing suicide. I am sorry that happened and that you had to experience all that you did. In reading, sounds like you blame God.

    Blackburn ignores the fact that I am an atheist, so suggesting that I am being “tricked” by Satan is, to put it mildly, a joke. I don’t believe in the existence of the Christian God, nor do I believe in the existence of Satan. As a man on the short side of life (please see Giving In When It’s The Only Thing You Can Do), I have thought a good bit about death. As an atheist, I am confident that once I draw my last breath, my life is over. While I will live on in the minds of my family and friends, my cremated remains will be sprinkled by my loved ones on the eastern shore of Lake Michigan.

    I don’t ignore that you are an atheist. However, just because you say you are an atheist doesn’t mean that God and Satan aren’t real. I can say all day long the the sky is green, but the fact is that it’s blue. Just because one denies ANY fact changes nothing. I would genuinely like to know what makes you confident that once you draw your last breath, your life is over….where’s your factual evidence?

    As is often the case with Christian zealots, Blackburn passive-aggressively threatens me with Hell.

    I am not threatening you with anything…I am simply sharing God’s Word…that you preached for 25 years. Again the fact that you don’t believe in Heaven or Hell doesn’t change the fact that they are real places. I am not the judge…just the messenger.

    According to Blackburn’s theological beliefs, Heaven and Hell are real places. People who have beliefs different from him will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire (Hell is a temporary holding cell, which God casts into the Lake of Fire, Revelation 20:14).

    God’s Word, not my word, says that those who reject what Jesus did for them will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

    Outside of the Bible, there’s no evidence for the existence of Heaven or Hell. In fact, there’s ample evidence that such places are fictional, tools used to reward and threaten people by churches and clerics. As an atheist, I do no fear going to Hell. And, I have no desire to go to Heaven. Why would I want to spend eternity with the Mike Backburns and David Tees of the world? No thanks.

    You preached the Bible that says without faith one cannot please God. I choose to have faith that God is real, and His Word is 100% truth. True…I don’t want to go to Hell…I have a reverent fear of God. I don’t trust being “outside of the Bible.” As to spending eternity with me, you should want to spend eternity with the Creator and His Son that you spoke on for 25 years.

    Blackburn believes that Satan has tricked me into believing that I don’t need God. Unlike Blackburn, I don’t need a psychological crutch to make it through the day. I can’t think of one aspect of my life where I “need” God. The only time I think about God is when I write for this blog. That’s it. I choose, instead, to focus on the present, life as it is.

    I don’t need any crutch to make it through any day. God has blessed me and my family for 54 years. I have plenty of stories and evidence on the matter. I need God 24/7. I am still a sinner, but a sinner saved by His grace.

    Blackburn could have made a good faith effort to get to know me and understand my story. He could have asked me questions after reading my autobiographical posts. Instead, Blackburn went into preaching mode. Whether he had a pathological need to do so or felt “led” by the Holy Spirit, I do not know. Over the years, countless Evangelicals have taken a similar approach with me. If they were willing (and they are not) to take a bit of advice from a reprobate/apostate/atheist, I would tell them that this approach does not work; that if the goal is to engage in thoughtful discussion with me or learn more about my story, you might try a different approach.

    I apologize that I didn’t spend the time you thought I should have spent getting to know you. I apologize for what you call “preaching mode.” I am human…I make mistakes all the time. I did feel led as you say to answer, but I guess I did a poor job.

    I am open to starting fresh in thoughtful discussion as long as you know that my comments will be Biblically based and grounded in my faith/belief in Jesus Christ. I don’t always say the right thing in the right way, by my heart is genuine. We don’t have to agree on everything to be friends…and I am a friend.

    Mike

    Reply
    1. Avatar
      Astreja

      Mike, it’s Bruce who gets to decide whether or not you’re his friend. Respect that.

      Reply
    2. Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      Mike,

      Loki-willing, I will respond to your comments later tonight.

      Bruce

      Reply
      1. Avatar
        Mike

        Didnt hear from you

        Reply
    3. Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      I encourage you to read several of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books on the nature and history of the Bible. Ehrman is a NT scholar at the University of North Carolina. His books are quite accessible, even to laymen lacking theological education.

      The Bible is not what you claim it is. That’s where our discussion must begin. All I ask is that you educate yourself before we discuss your claims. Quoting Bible verses to “prove” your claims about the text won’t work here. Many of the regular commenters are former Christians/Evangelicals/Fundamentalist Baptists — ex-pastors, evangelists, missionaries, Bible college professors, worship leaders, devoted followers of Jesus. Some commenters are even Christians. I am telling you this for this reason: we are not ignorant of the teachings of the Bible. You are not a teacher, and we are not your students.

      Most Christian commenters are given one opportunity to share whatever it is that “God” has laid upon their hearts. I’ve decided to give you a bit more space than I typically give zealots. Please don’t squander this opportunity I have given you. If you have not read the comment policy, let me share it with you:

      All commenters are expected to use a functioning email address. The use of a fake or non-functioning email address will result in your comment being deleted.

      Pseudonyms are permitted. Please use one, and only one, pseudonym when commenting on this blog. People using more than one will have their comments deleted.

      All first-time comments and comments with more than one HTML link are moderated. Depending on the time of day, It might take hours for me to approve your comment.

      Before commenting, please read the ABOUT page to acquaint yourself with my background. You might also want to read the Dear Evangelical page and the WHY page.

      The following type of comments will not be approved:

      Preachy/sermonizing comment

      Bible verse-quoting comment

      Evangelizing comment

      I am praying for you comment

      You are going to hell comment

      You never were saved comment

      You never were a Christian comment

      Any comment that is a personal attack on me personally, my family, or the readers of this blog

      Any comment that is not on point with what the post is about

      Any comment that denigrates abuse victims

      I write about issues that might not be child-friendly. Please be aware of this. I also use profanity from time to time, and I allow the use of profanity in the comment section.

      The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser is not a democracy where visitors have a right to say whatever they want. This is my personal blog, and I reserve the right to approve or disapprove any comment. When a comment or a commenter is abusive towards the community of people who read this blog, I reserve the right to ban the commenter.

      If you can be respectful, decent, and thoughtful, your comment will always be approved. Unfortunately, there are many people — Evangelical/Fundamentalist/IFB/Conservative Catholic Christians in particular — who have a hard time playing well with others. Using a passive-aggressive approach in the comment section will not be tolerated and will result in a permanent ban.

      This blog is also not a place for hardcore atheists to preach the gospel of atheism. While I am an atheist, some of the people who read this blog are not. Frank, honest, open, and passionate discussion about religion, Christianity, and Evangelicalism is encouraged and welcome. However, I do expect atheists not to attack, badger, or denigrate people who still believe in God. If you are respectful, decent, and thoughtful, you will be fine.

      Generally, I will post one comment from a preachy, Bible-quoting, evangelizing Evangelical. If this describes you, please make sure you say all you need to say in your comment. By all means, say whatever it is you think “God” is leading you to say, but understand that no further comments will be approved once you have said your piece.

      My writing is direct and pointed, and so is my response to comments. Please do not confuse my directness and pointedness with me attacking you or your religion. This is a grown-up blog, so cries that I offended you or “attacked” your religion will fall on deaf ears.

      If you can play by these rules, I hope you will become a part of our community and join the discussion.

      If you have further questions about the commenting policy, please use the contact form to email me.

      Reply
    4. clubschadenfreude

      Wow, Mike whines a lot. It’s great fun that he claims he is a friend, but bitches when his nonsense is exposed to others.

      Mike, you have to come up with “Blame god” thing, that is a common lie from so many Christians. You can’t believe someone doesn’t agree with you because of the facts.

      You have tried to ignore that Bruce, and so many others are atheists. Again, you try to claim your bogeymen are real, and have no evidence for that nonsense at all, just like every other theist that you claim their gods aren’t real. My factual evidence that your god is nonsense is that no essential event in the bible has been shown to have happened and entire different things happened in their place no matter what date a Christian might invent. And no hell and heaven either, for the same reason. Plenty of theists make afterlife claims, and none of evidence for them. I might as much care that I’m going to the Elysian Fields or Valhalla (that last would be at least fun).

      It’s always fun to see the whine that the Christian isn’t threatening with hell. They so often backpedal with the “it’s God who is, I’m just following orders”. Hmmm, where have we heard that crap before? Yep, Mike is just one more sadistic twit. Even Christiand don’t agree on heaven and hell. Such a shame.

      And indeed who would want to be in a heaven with a child killer, praising it endlessly for being a jackass?

      No evidence this god or any god blesses anyone. It’s just the vanity of Christians that has them claiming that. Funny how Mike and all Christians can’t do what the bible says all Christians can do and help people. Nope, it’s just the Christian me me me. I’m going to heaven. My version is right, etc.

      Every Christian claims that they and only they are “really” bibilically based. And not a one can show that since they all go through their bible with their magic decoder ring and invent their god and their religion in their own image.

      Reply
  8. Avatar
    Mike

    Seek and ye shall find are reserved for a Holy God, not ANY person. As to a fresh start, I guess you don’t accept people’s apologies and forgive. I choose to be your friend, and in God’s love, I tell you God’s Truth, not man’s distorted version of their own truth. “A promiscuous, cheap way?” So not true.

    Reply
    1. Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      I don’t accept your apology. Just do better, Mike. Treat others with respect. Live according to Jesus’ words in the Sermon on the Mount. (Matthew 5-7). Stop hiding behind your humanity. That’s an excuse, is it not? According to the Bible, the Holy Ghost lives inside you, and you have the mind of Christ. With God living inside of you, can you not treat me with respect?

      You are not my friend, nor will we ever be friends. You don’t get to decide if we are friends. I know you are used to cheap, promiscuous, syrupy friendships, Mike. Remember, I was an Evangelical for almost 50 years. I know how cheaply the words love and friend are used in Evangelical churches. If you want to have a mythical friendship with me, by all means do so, but don’t expect me to reciprocate. Please keep such fake sentiments to yourself.

      How do you know what you say is God’s “truth?” What empirical evidence do you have for the existence of God, and that God being your deity? How do you know your ‘truth” is right and all other “truths” are wrong? You are an itty-bitty person in a sea of 8 billion people, yet you have the “truth.” Can you not see how arrogant you are? Years of religious indoctrination has convinced you that you are right. Filled with arrogance and certainty, you think you are dispenser of the one-true-faith. I understand where you are. I used to think just like you. When a man is certain he is right, there’s no hope of reaching him, or having a meaningful conversation with him. You are here to evangelize and convert, not engage and learn. Again, I understand where you are.

      Reply
    2. Avatar
      Ann Lo

      Bruce has told you that you are not his friend, so you don’t get to choose to be his friend. Friendships require mutuality. You insist you aren’t harassing anyone, but you keep coming back to harass Bruce. It’s disrespectful behavior. What I see here is a lack of healthy boundaries. In you it takes the form of online harassment. In conservative Christian churches, which have a boundary problem in spades, it comes out as sexual harassment and abuse and sometimes financial malfeasance, misusing money that is not one’s own. Reading your comments helps me understand why individuals like Bill Hybels, Paige Patterson, Frank Page, and Andy Savage got away with so much. I wonder how many here have experienced evangelical men intruding into their lives, declaring themselves to be friends, assuming intimacy that was not there, without seeking consent?

      Reply
      1. Avatar
        … Zoe ~

        So true Ann re: boundaries and consent. At its core, evangelism really is all about ignoring boundaries and avoiding consent. Then they get to say: Well, it’s God, not me.

        Reply
  9. clubschadenfreude

    Mike is one of those Christians who is so interested in Satan, that he makes his god impotent.

    Reply
    1. Avatar
      Mike

      Interested only to the point of staying away…God is all powerful and already kicked Satan out of Heaven. Satan knows his final doom

      Reply
      1. clubschadenfreude

        Funny how your god repeatedly works with Satan and needs it, Mike. No betrayal, no salvation.

        a terribly incompetent god.

        Reply
      2. Avatar
        Astreja

        And yet your pretend friend can’t deal properly with its pretend fiend, and supposedly allows it free rein over the Earth. What a useless dick of a god you worship.

        Reply
      3. Goyo

        Your god created the universe, and has an enemy?
        What a weak god!
        Your religious mythology is real, but all others are false? How do you know?

        Reply
      4. BJW

        Mike, if God is all powerful, why do so many Christians act like Satan is winning? You condemn those you don’t like and yet, act as if God can’t just win over all evil. Personally, your god is an asshole, who demands perfection while allowing his chosen people to continue to sin, sin sin as long as they ask for forgiveness. No one here takes evangelicals or fundamentalists seriously as moral people, as many of you do terrible things, then say you’re forgiven and don’t make the SLIGHTEST effort to make things right with your victims. No, the Trump era has shown that all you all want is power to force others to submit, while you all do your dirty acts in secret. Rape, incest, molestation, domestic violence are just a few. We aren’t in the slightest bit convinced in you all, because even though we aren’t people of the Bible, we’d respond more nicely to actual, loving, caring Christians. By the way, I do have actual Christian friends, and some of them are pastors. But they aren’t of your ilk. To them I am respectful of their beliefs. YOURS? No, forget it. Maybe it’s because they aren’t gleeful about their fellow men going to hell, and most of them believe it’s not real or eternal. Seems to give them true empathy, a quality someone like you lacks.

        Reply
  10. Avatar
    Yulya Sevelova

    Mike, by now you’ve read enough of both the blog and comments,so I want to ask you myself just WHY do you bother to nag Bruce about God, when you know very well that he could go to God at anytime ?? It looks as though you are trying to get him to prefer to do the opposite of THIS–just by being pious, obnoxious, and then disregarding his policy of not using phones,for example. Then you claim an interest in friendship,while being quite unfriendly ! Then resorting to the cheap shot of ‘ eternal damnation ‘ when the other ploys don’t work. What did you expect to happen, really ?? Are you from the Deep South ? They behave in such a fashion, because it’s normal for them culturally. And they don’t care if the effect is negative, and drives people away from God. They’ll sound off anyway. It’s cultural.

    Reply
  11. Avatar
    Obstaclechick

    Oh, Mikey, I feel for you, buddy. You aren’t hitting your Convert Quota through trying to harass Bruce with your deity and demi-deity and threats of eternal damnation in hell for not accepting your deity.

    Reply
    1. Avatar
      Mike

      I haven’t harassed anyone. That’s just an excuse, a crutch people lean on. I can’t convert anyone, Only the Holy Spirit of God can do that. When I read scripture, people say Christians are judging. They are not. Do you teach your kids right from wrong? I hope so. A Christians job is to proclaim the Gospel in as much love as possible without compromising Gods Word. I try to do just that, but fail sometimes because I’m human

      Reply
      1. Avatar
        Bruce Gerencser

        Let me be clear:

        1) YOU contacted me, I did not contact you.

        2) YOU asked several questions, and I politely pointed you to where you could find answers to your questions.

        3) YOU read a handful of posts and then sent me a judgmental, preachy email.

        4) I responded to your email, calling out your bad behavior.

        5) You half-assed apologized, expecting me to accept your apology and forgive you.

        6) I don’t owe you anything, Mike. Do better. Don’t want to be perceived as an asshole? Don’t act like an asshole. It’s really that simple.

        I get it, you think God talks to you, whether through the Bible or in your head. You think because your peculiar version of the Christian God talks to you that you have a right to bother and harass unbelievers. You can “feel” whatever you want, but you don’t get to control how people respond to your unwanted preaching and evangelizing. Don’t like how I’ve responded to you? Do better, Mike.

        Think of all the different ways you could have interacted with me — a man who was in the Christian church for 50 years and pastored Evangelical churches for 25 years. Instead, you preached AT me, acting like a self-righteous prick. Did you really think your words would have ANY positive effect on me? What could you possibly say that I haven’t heard before or preached myself countless times? Nothing in your behavior towards me is Christ-like. Would you like me to quote the Bible verses that show your behavior is contrary to the words of Christ or the teachings of the Bible?

        You want to have an honest discussion with me? It starts with respect.

        Bruce

        Reply
      2. clubschadenfreude

        “I can’t convert anyone, Only the Holy Spirit of God can do that. When I read scripture, people say Christians are judging. They are not. Do you teach your kids right from wrong? I hope so. A Christians job is to proclaim the Gospel in as much love as possible without compromising Gods Word. I try to do just that, but fail sometimes because I’m human”

        I’m curious, Mike. You claim only your god can convert people. So what was the point of the Great Commission? Or are you making this excuse since you fail?

        If what you say is true, then every missionary is worthless. Of course, your bible says that your god has already chosen who will be saved, nothing else needed, Matthew 13 and Romans 9 if you need a reminder.

        Every christian claims that they and only they have the “right” version of this god’s word. No evidence you do at all.

        As for teaching children about right and wrong….. Your bible has that your god wanted to keep humans ignorant of “right and wrong”. It was only the action of Eve that allowed us to have morals. Christians can’t agree on what right and wrong even are. AS always you make up a god in your image, and try to convince others that they need to obey you.

        Reply
  12. Avatar
    amy b

    If there really WAS a God, the Bible (and Christianity) would be an insult to him. Just saying. I mean, what kind of primitive, judgmental asshole demands a human sacrifice to avoid punishing people for behaving the way he created them to behave? What kind of judgmental asshole demands absolute fealty without providing any concrete proof of ANYTHING? If you don’t believe God employed a Vulcan mind meld with a motley assortment of (now) anonymous scroll writers from the Bronze Age, whose original texts are long gone, so all we have now are copies of copies of whatever they wrote, also done with absolutely no mistakes or changes whatsoever, you’re going to Hell for eternity when you die. Yeah right.

    Reply
  13. Avatar
    Jörg

    Assuming Hell were real, what about the hells of all the other religions we atheists don’t believe in? Do we have to spend an eternity in the Christian Hell, then an eternity in the Hell of Islam, etc.? Are our virtual souls split to be able to visit all hells concurrently? It is a bit confusing. 😉

    Reply
    1. Avatar
      Astreja

      You really, really don’t want to spend your eternity in Niflheim. I have it on good authority from My cousin Hel that it’s like being in a waiting room where the air conditioning is turned up too high, and you’ve read all the magazines thousands of times. 😀

      Reply
      1. Goyo

        Ah yes, in Niflheim, Hel rules over vast mansions with many servants in her underworld realm…sounds familiar to another story…

        Reply
  14. Avatar
    … Zoe ~

    I came across a statement regarding “healing” this morning. This is not original with me.

    “Maybe your final stage of healing is telling folks to fuck off.”

    I think there may be some truth to that.

    Reply
    1. BJW

      Zoe! That is really awesome. Some folks do need to be told to fuck off. 😉

      Reply
    2. Michael Mock

      …I do like this. It has a very pragmatic flavor to it.

      Reply
      1. Avatar
        … Zoe ~

        Sort of like putting your oxygen mask on first when they drop down on a plane. 🙂

        Reply
  15. MJ Lisbeth

    BJW and Zoe—So true! You can’t heal if you keep toxicity, whether in human bodies or other forms, in your life.

    Reply
  16. Avatar
    William

    Mike maybe satan tricked you into thinking bruce was tricked. What chance you got if Peter didn’t even know what was going on?

    Reply
  17. Michael Mock

    “I can’t convert anyone, Only the Holy Spirit of God can do that.”

    Ah, that old cop-out. If that’s the case, what in the world are you doing here? You’re commanded to spread the Gospel, right? But doing that work will — by your own words — make no actual difference to anything. Is God, like a desperate substitute teacher, trying to keep you busy with make-work?

    Okay, let’s start with some basics:
    1. You can’t use the Bible to prove the truth of Christianity. The bible isn’t an independent account; it’s just the written form of Christian belief. You can’t prove the truth of an assertion based on the assertion itself.
    2. Everybody here — all the nonbelievers and probably even some of the believers — have had some variation of this conversation before. If it didn’t convince us then, why should we give it any attention now?
    3. You cannot make yourself someone’s friend by just asserting that you are. That is not how friendship works. Saying “I come to you as a friend” when Bruce is not your friend and you are presuming instead to act as his teacher is… not friendly. It’s used car salesman bullshit.

    So. God is real. Satan is real. Hell is real. And we continue to exist, conscious, after death. Why in the world should any of us believe any of that? All you’ve shown us so far is unsupported assertions that those things are true, and most of us grew up with those.

    Reply
  18. Avatar
    Don Suebert

    Since creation men have seen the earth and sky and all God made, and have known of His existence and great eternal power. So they will have no excuse when they stand before God on Judgement Day. Romans 1:19-20 Yes, you know about Him, but will not admit it or even thank Him for His daily care. You think up silly vain ideas and as a result your foolish minds become dark and confused. Professing yourselves to be wise you have become fools. Everything you have done will be open and laid bare to Him to whom we must give an account. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

    Reply
    1. Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      Sigh

      I just went outside and looked at the sky. Nothing in me said, ooh, aww, there is a God, let alone said, the God of the Christian Bible created everything. Sorry, Don, you are going to have to do better than just quoting verses from an ancient religious text.

      I’ve been an atheist for thirteen years. I have yet to have someone connect what I see in the natural world to it being created by the God of the Protestant Christian Bible.

      Suppose I looked at the night sky and said Allah created everything, or one of the other deities humans worship created everything. Are you okay with that? Or is it your God or Hell?

      By all means, Don, share your evidence for the existence of your peculiar deity. Not Bible verses, actual evidence. Thirteen years, thousands and thousands of interactions with Christians, not one believer has coughed up sufficient evidence proving the existence of their God. Maybe, just maybe you will be the first. I won’t hold my breath.

      Reply
    2. Avatar
      Astreja

      Don, it’s execrably rude of you to pretend to know what other people think and feel. You have no access to what Bruce (or anyone else) thinks and feels in the privacy of their own minds, so when you say things like “Yes, you know about Him, but will not admit it…” you are bearing false witness. Cut it out.

      Reply

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