Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) churches are known for their commitment to literalism, Biblical inerrancy, and strict codes of personal conduct. Demographically, IFB churchgoers tend to be white, Republican, and middle to lower class. IFB churches also have anti-culture tendencies, as revealed in their support of the Christian school and home school movements. The IFB church movement has spawned numerous colleges, including Hyles-Anderson College, Tennessee Temple, Midwestern Baptist College, Baptist Bible College, Pensacola Christian College, Clarks Summit Baptist Bible Seminary, Maranatha Baptist University, Massillon Baptist College, Crown College of the Bible, Faith Baptist Bible College, Fairhaven Baptist College, Pensacola Bible Institute, and West Coast Baptist College. Though not explicitly IFB institutions, Bob Jones University, Liberty University, Cedarville University, and Cornerstone University are sympathetic to IFB beliefs and practices, and attract a number of IFB students.
Millions of Americans attend IFB churches. Add to this number Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) churches who hold similar Fundamentalist theological and social beliefs (please see Are Evangelicals Fundamentalists?), and you end up with a sizeable minority within the broad Evangelical tent. While some IFB apologists trace the movement’s genesis to the Modernist-Fundamentalist battle of the 1920s, most would say that the IFB church movement was birthed out of opposition to liberalism in the Southern Baptist Convention and American Baptist Convention in the 1950s and 1960s. Many of the fathers of the movement were Southern Baptist or American Baptist pastors who pulled their churches out of their respective conventions. I attended numerous Sword of the Lord conferences in the 1970s and 1980s where big-name IFB preachers trumpeted the astronomical numerical growth of their churches while delighting in spouting statistics that showed the SBC was in decline. I heard Jack Hyles, then the pastor of the largest church in the world — First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana — run down the list of the largest churches in America, pointing out how many of them were IFB churches. Hyles, along with countless other IFB preachers of that era, believed that their churches’ growth and the SBC’s decline were sure signs of God’s approval and blessing.
Today, the IFB church movement is in steep numerical decline. Churches that once had thousands of members are now closed or are shells of what they once were. IFB colleges have also seen drops in enrollment due to the fact that the feeders for these institutions — IFB churches — aren’t sending as many students to their schools. The Southern Baptist Convention, on the other hand, has been reclaimed from liberalism, and many of the largest churches in America are affiliated with the Convention. (The SBC is the first denomination that I am aware of that has reversed its course and returned to its Fundamentalist roots. The Convention is now home to a burgeoning Calvinistic movement. Many liberal/progressive SBC churches broke away in 1991 (1,800 churches) and formed the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. Liberals who remain will either seek out friendlier associations or be excommunicated.)
For countless Christians, the IFB church movement is all they have ever known. Their entire lives, from baby dedications to graduations from IFB colleges, have been dominated and controlled by Baptist Fundamentalism. In many ways, the IFB church movement is a cult (please see Questions: Bruce, Is the IFB Church Movement a Cult? and One Man’s Christianity is Another Man’s Cult) that shelters families from the evil, Satanic outside world. All that congregants are required to do is believe and obey. Is it any wonder that the hymn Trust and Obey is a popular hymn in many IFB churches? Trust and obey, for there’s no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey. For those born and raised in the IFB bubble, all they know is what they have been taught by their parents, pastors, and teachers. Encouraged to make professions of faith at an early age, these cradle Baptists know little about the world outside of the IFB bubble. The bubble protects them from outside, worldly influences and helps to reinforce IFB beliefs and practices. (And when IFB youths run afoul of the strict rules found in IFB churches, they are sometimes sent off to IFB group homes and camps so they can be “rehabilitated.”)
The video below graphically (and beautifully) illustrates how deeply and thoroughly Fundamentalist beliefs dominate the thinking of those raised in Fundamentalist churches. Sung by Champion Baptist College’s (now Champion Christian University) tour group, the song I Have Been Blessed, is a compendium of IFB beliefs. The indoctrinated young adults singing this song really believe what they are singing. Outsiders might label these singers ignorant — and they are — but I choose to be more charitable, knowing that this song is simply a reflection of the tribal religion they have been a part of their entire lives.
I have great sympathy for people who know only what they have been taught in IFB churches and institutions. From the early 1960s to the mid-1990s, I was one such person. My parents were saved at an IFB church in the 1960s, and from that day forward we religiously attended IFB churches. When my parents divorced in the early 1970s, I continued to attend IFB churches. In many ways, these congregations became my family, giving me love and structure. After high school, I attended an IFB college, and from 1979 to 1994 I pastored IFB churches. (One church I co-pastored, Community Baptist Church in Elmendorf, Texas, would not call itself an IFB church due to its Calvinistic beliefs, but its social practices and anti-culture beliefs put it squarely in the IFB camp.) I was, in every way, a true-blue believer, never questioning my beliefs until I was in my late 40s. I know firsthand how IFB indoctrination affects a person intellectually and psychologically.
Not everyone, of course, is born into the IFB church movement. Others become members due to the movement’s aggressive evangelistic efforts and methodology. Particular targets are people who have messy, unhappy lives or have drug/alcohol addictions. Wanting deliverance from their present lives, these people are often quite receptive when they come in contact with IFB preachers and church members who promise them that, if they will believe the IFB gospel, then Jesus will make their lives brand new and deliver them from their chaotic, broken lives. Once saved, these newly minted Christians are encouraged to join the churches that cared enough about them to share the Good News® with them. And many of these people do indeed join IFB churches, but unlike those raised in such churches, these outsiders often have a harder time accepting IFB social strictures. More than a few of them stop attending church or seek out congregations that aren’t as extreme.
And then there are the people who deliberately seek out IFB churches to attend. Drawn to such churches by their need for doctrinal purity, certainty, or a safe haven from the world, they are thrilled to find churches that believe the Bible from cover to cover (even though, as anyone who has studied the IFB church movement knows, IFB preachers and congregants pick and choose beliefs just as non-IFB Christians do). Perfectionists, in particular, find IFB churches quite appealing. If IFB churches and their pastors are anything, they are certain that their beliefs and practices come straight from the mouth of the Christian God (God wrote the Bible, so its words are his). Perfectionists — as I know firsthand — love structure, control, and order.
Perfectionists make the perfect members. They joyously buy into the go-go-go, do-do-do, work-for-the-night-is-coming-when-no-man-can-work, better-to-burn-out-than-rust-out thinking that permeates IFB churches. There’s no time for rest and comfort. The Bible is true, judgment is sure, hell is real, and there are billions of lost souls who need to hear the IFB gospel. How dare anyone who truly loves Jesus live a life of ease while sinners are dying in their sins and going to hell. On and on go the clichés. I suspect that most successful IFB preachers have perfectionist tendencies.
Some IFB church members were once members of Evangelical or mainline churches. Concerns over perceived liberalism drive them to seek out churches that still believe in the Book, the Blood, and the Blessed Hope. Tired of pastors who refuse, they believe, to preach the whole counsel of God or to stand against worldliness, these disaffected Christians often find that IFB churches believe what they believe, so they leave their churches and join with the Baptists.
While I could give other reasons people attend IFB churches, those mentioned above cover the majority of people who attend Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Oh my! That is one very unfortunate looking tie and gloves!
Suzanne, that is “Dr.” Phil Kidd.
http://brucegerencser.net/2016/04/the-sounds-of-fundamentalism-racism-bigotry-hatred-phil-kidd/
You forgot 1 reason folks attend IFB churches: they’re INSANE!
????
I miss you! For newer readers who may not know, Steve was a regular commenter, a dear friend of mine. Steve suddenly died of a heart attack in 2019. Steve was raised in the IFB church movement and attended an IFB college.
Independent Fun and Mental Baptists…….. (Why? Brain washing!!!)
As an Australian growing up in a calvinistic presbyterian church you arminians were always wrong! Then along came the new calvinist movement in the SB……. Hey….God is reforming his church! (That was a decade or so I saw the light). Ha… also now a 60yo apostate, secular humanist.
Oops……… Funless anD Mental!
I feel bad for people still in these churches. There is a commonality. If you queston ANYTHING that is said, you are accused of letting Satan in.
Some of my old friends still are IFB, including family, and there is another commonality. Cock-suredness of their having the TRUTH, and ridicule of those who hold other “inferior” beliefs.
Bruce, I truly cannot imagine anyone being attracted to an IFB church. But, if you say there are some, I’ll try to believe you. My impression is that they’re all dying. I mean, I am truly, truly shocked to think that there are people who grew up in IFB and are still there when they are old!! It’s simply astounding to me. I think-don’t these people ever get out and about? This stuff really still appeals to them after fifty or sixty years of it??? It’s simply unbelievable to me.
I mean, unless you’re living on an island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean…do they not read any books? Do they not have the internet? To me, it’s like a time-warp-you’d have to be pretending it’s still the 1960’s and 1970’s. That was their heyday.
I don’t know. I guess, maybe, there are still Christian women who have Christian radio on in the background while they go about their day, who faithfully attend Sunday morning, Sunday nite, and Wed. nite services??
I was born into IFB. But in my mid-twenties, I moved to a different city. Then I moved to another state. Then I moved to Philadelphia. It was all broadening for me, even though I was always in church throughout. I occasionally wish I’d stayed in my hometown my whole life, in that protected little world. But then-I shudder to think of that. I’m glad I moved on!
There will always be people who crave and need certainty. There will always be people who want and need an authority figure to tell them how to live.
Many IFB churches are dying, but some continue to grow. In Toledo, for example, there’s a large IFB church that built a multimillion dollar building a few years ago.
It now seems crazy to those of us who left the IFB church movement, but just remember there was a time when we were diehard IFB zealots. I try never to see myself as superior to people in the IFB. The greater goal is to help them see a better way.
I am the daughter of a woman who craved certainty and the comfort of being under authority. She would have done well in an IFB church. She did well as a pre-Vatican II Catholic. But then Vatican II came along and loosened up the church, and she was very uncomfortable with that.
Many of our arguments during my teenage years were about religion, since the nuns who taught in my Catholic schools were very much post-Vatican II theists. That was profoundly uncomfortable for my mom.
I was YOUNG for the IFB, and when I entered in my early-mid 30s, everyone was 20 years older then me. At the last IFB I attended I was well into my mid-late 40s, now very late 40s, and every adult in the place was at least 62-65 plus. The only younger adults were people who still lived at home in their 20s but they were very few and far between The IFB is dying. Generation X and Millennials are not interested. Good riddance. I believe it is the right wing conservative, Tea party, religious Baby Boomers [more affluent types who had the 1980s as the trickle down hey day who voted in Trump. They are completely out of touch with the lives of anyone 60 and under, economic and otherwise.
I can’t imagine either. I’m old enough to remember when JFK (catholic) died from a head wound and the fundies at my IFB church were thinking that he would rise from the dead three days later and become the Antichrist.
Well, as in The Sound of Music, they’re suffering from a deplorable lack of curiosity, in my opinion. If the adults are happy in the IFB, more power to them. But, for heaven’s sake, don’t subject sensitive, impressionable children to such.
I thank God that I was born with a healthy curiosity, find people fascinating, love learning, love reading, and have a great sense of humor that no IFB indoctrination could suppress forever!
I once read an article that in repressive communities that the people need to feel a sense of superiority in order to continue to carry out their restrictive rules. Think orthodox Jews, fundamentalist Muslims, fundamentalist Christians – they must feel that their beliefs are superior to those of other groups or else there is no reason to adhere to strict food laws, clothing laws, rules of conduct, etc. It makes sense. If one is not completely invested into their belief system, there is absolutely no reason to follow through with these rules that set them completely apart from the rest of society. The reward of compliance must outweigh the difficulties involved.
Funny, for work yesterday I met with a customer who is an Israeli Jew living in Brooklyn. He was well-versed in the different strains of Judaism, even the different groups of Jews (i.e., Syrian Jews vs. Yemeni Jews vs. Ashkenazi/Eastern European Jews) and he had an opinion about each (Syrian Jews are wealthy, Yemeni Jews are cheap, Ashkenazi are the best because he was one). He believed that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and that Muslims are incapable of having a democracy and must be led by a dictator. And that Muslims want to eradicate anyone who isn’t Muslim. He was just as racist and fundamentalist as any of Bruce’s neighbors. And talk about being invested in compliance – when he visits factories in Vietnam he flies back to Shanghai to go to the Jewish center for Shabbas because God forbid he miss Shabbas. And there’s no kosher food in Vietnam, but in China he can have kosher food at the Jewish Center. You find fundamentalists in all religions……I just wish all of the fundamentalists would pipe down and leave everyone else alone.
Yes, I think it is about taking life seriously, wanting to feel pure, perfectionism, high standards. I wonder if fundamentalists consist of lots of first-borns. Maybe they don’t forgive themselves easily, they require a lot from themselves. I myself am a first-born.
I think abuse brought me into the IFB, I was raised with extreme narcissists nothing was ever good enough for. It doesn’t surprise me that my going no contact with an abusive family–I was “low contact” during adult married years but it just wasn’t enough, also freed me from the shackles of abusive religion via the IFB and fundamentalism. I converted in, big mistake. This sentence sums up why I did:
” Particular targets are people who have messy, unhappy lives or have drug/alcohol addictions. Wanting deliverance from their present lives, these people are often quite receptive when they come in contact with IFB preachers and church members who promise them that, if they will believe the IFB gospel, then Jesus will make their lives brand new and deliver them from their chaotic, broken lives. ”
I almost died just a few months before I converted. I had experienced extreme trauma, at a job where I had to confront violence, Just a few years earlier I had become severely disabled and had several medical conditions the doctors didn’t even understand. I had suffered through extreme poverty–think near homelessness and dumpster diving to eat, and had just escaped it. Damn it, I was ripe for the picking. I also believed inside I needed FIXED and “was NOT GOOD ENOUGH” and there was Jesus with his “Deliverance Ministries”, and the His book full of promises about the joy, meaning, peace, purpose, and supposed friends that would await. Fact of the matter is most converts into the IFB don’t really FIT IN, most are family people born into the mess. Oh, if you don’t fix your body, health, finances, or lose an earlier fix and slide back into poverty, then you are a “sinner” who didn’t get right with God, there’s a time limit kind of on that “deliverance” from chaotic broken lives. I was happily married, paid my own rent and bills, didn’t drink, drug or have kids out of wedlock, and had a college degree, but I was dog poop on the bottom of their shoes.
@cheezits99- 95% maybe more. I was homeless 5 years and ate a few meals out of dumpsters. I am college educated. I was never baptist per se. I was raised Nazarene. I went Neopentecostal 10 years in young adulthood. Lately I go by Post Analytical until I can figure terms and other details out.
cheezit99, Thanks for telling it like it is… IFB belief is goes out searching for the injured, the weakened. They want to ‘help’ them get on their feet again, get on their feet again as a self-hating slave of brainwashing religious nonsense.
Why is it so hard for the deluded among believers to see that when a biped cries out to the nothing for help, they are doing so because they have nothing to lose and their need is great. When I almost bumped another car in the parking lot the other day, I said thanks when I just missed. I said thanks to the wind because I was thankful. I also cry for help when I need it and often when nobody is around. I do not believe in any magic Creator or oie in the sky but I like to express myself. The empty nothing does not listen to me any more than my IFB dad did regarding important issues in my life. Who gives a fuck. We must say our piece and be as open as we can. I believe in the power of prayer to the whirlwind. Right now I am praying that Donald Trump goes to war, that he goes to war with North Korea… by himself, riding a donkey to meet the fellow he calls Rocket Man. Go to war, please, Donald Trump. Only you can do it! Go alone and take your family Bible with you. God speed. Amen. The power of prayer!
Hmmm, interesting how ignorance breeds ignorance. I’ve been a member of both SBC and IFBC. I have seen God move in IFBC, people going down the isles getting saved after a convicting message. I have never seen God move in a SBC. There are good godly folks in both, but, the way you people talk about the IBC, is just plain ignorant. From what I have observed in both SBC and IBC, is, the IBC has won more to Christ than any church from what I’ve observed, and the focus is on Christ, not programs.
Our church has been SBC, then CBF, now BGAV all because the pastor told the church we needed to change. Our pastor was educated at Southeastern Seminary during their liberal years. I received my seminary degree from Trinity Theological Seminary in Newburgh IN (they have since moved) and they believed in Sola Fide. I have studied the IFB movement and find many detractors. I have watched my home church struggle under poor leadership and weak Bible teaching from the current pastor. Weak theology, soft sermons, and no consequences for sin leave many searching for truth. Our churches want to be all things to all people. We want more members, more entertainment, more youth activities, food courts, and no commitment. The largest church in our town accepts the LGBT crowd as they are without change. You can be a practicing homosexual and not have to repent. At 67 I am drawn to Andersonville Theological as they teach from the KJV. They quote the scriptures and not the academic debate. I long for the SBC church of my childhood. I am a pastor planting house churches during a Biblical drought in this country.
Johnson you are a liar and a dick
More like Judgeamdental stagnate church. Thank God we we’re judged out of an FBC!
Blinders are off and we’re Free from the slavery.
Guys independent Baptist Churches use the KJV The correct Bible. Also the KJV is the most accurate. Not a lot of churches use this bible. Also more proof the KJV doesn’t have a copy right unlike every other bible
The KJV is not the most accurate. Please read Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books.
Dr. Bart Ehrman doesn’t know more than God. The bible is inspired by GOD and we are not to change one word of it. That means no adding, twisting, or taking away from it. Rev.22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. The reason you are no longer a believer is because you NEVER truly was a believer. A true believer doesn’t become an unbeliever because the holy spirit dwells in him, and you can’t unsave yourself. He enlightens you! Once saved, always saved. True Christians don’t deny the existence of God, nor that Jesus Christ died on the cross that we may obtain salvation.
Diana,
Have you read any of Dr. Ehrman’s books? If not, the Bible says in Proverbs 18:13: Answering before listening is both stupid and rude. Read, and then we will talk.
If you are here to “preach” you are wasting your time. If, however, you want to honestly , openly discuss my story, once saved always saved, etc, I’m game. To do that you must be willing to accept my story at face value. Starting out with “Bruce, you are a liar” is a sure discussion killer.
Since you only read one post on this site (see Proverbs 18:13) before rendering judgment on my life, I suggest you read some of the posts found here: http://brucegerencser.net/why/ Surely, you wouldn’t want to misjudge someone, right?
Thank you.
Bruce Gerencser
What caused you to be so bitter ? I can somewhat understand your disdain for religion but why the effort to destroy something you don’t believe is real . Why fight so hard ? Why not just let people believe as they will ? I don’t spend anytime attempting to convince people that Bigfoot doesn’t exist , their belief is not a threat to me. Again ,why the effort to discredit ?
http://brucegerencser.net/2021/12/yet-another-evangelical-asks-me-why-i-am-so-bitter/
Diana, since there’s no credible evidence for your god, everyone with a functioning brain knows more. Fictional beings don’t know anything at all, you see.
And guess what? One second after the end of your life, you won’t believe either. Deceased individuals don’t know anything, either.
I don’t believe you’re saved, for the simple reason that I don’t think anyone is saved. You don’t have some special treat awaiting you in the afterlife – you’ll moulder in your grave like the rest of us.
In fact, your shameful screed against Bruce demonstrates to my satisfaction that you are not saved, not enlightened, and not a nice person. -You- may be okay with letting someone die in your place; I, on the other hand, think that that’s a disgusting and cowardly sentiment. Good day, madame.
Funny, Mr. Bruce, that you use the word “accurate” as if it’s a term that can be attributed to any Bible. Accurate to what? Accurate to it’s original? Please, any good theologian who has read the writings of Jeremiah recognize the original texts are long gone. Accurate to Gods word? Why wouldn’t one assume the KJV to be accurate, after all only by inspiration could any of those words hold any truth. Divine inspiration that is. Otherwise, are you to honestly tell me we are basing our entirety of theology off of drivel written by supposed “holy” men from a dead era? We might as well assume the doctrines of socialism since their ideals would be of equal value and use.
I find this whole article to be hypocritical. Step into any church and you’ll find it a crypt full of the shallow believer. The general knowledge found in any basic “Christian” (I hate the fact religious people take on the name of Christian, it’s an insult to the martyrs and people who lived their lives fully committed to the work of Christ, compared to those of you who simply chase after vain knowledge) is elementary at best, with here and there references to Biblical stories, Jesus on the cross, God loves all, yada yada. But ask them what their personal study and meditation has gained them, what they’ve found about God in their own search for truth, and most will simply stare at you as if you’ve asked a question in a different language. So to attest that IFB members are only there on cultish terms, then I’d like to suggest that all members of any church are the same, after all, they all have the same look when asked anything of their personal spiritual life. I stand by the claim that all churches have their bags of bones, but of any doctrine found in any church or religious group, I find those of a few IFB to be the most realistic and understandable, compared to other religious factions whose doctrines trips over theirselves
I have no clue what you are talking about.
Yesterday I got handed a magasine as I walked along my UK beachside promenade. The Beach Mission was in full swing, with, thankfully just a few elderly folk watching from benches, and kids around ignoring it. The mission is run by an IFB-type group, (FIEC in the UK). I read in the mag that if I’m interested in knowing more about jesus, fill in the form and they’ll send me a “”New Testament and Psalms”, literature…..and recommendations of “good churches” in my area. Am tempted to go back and ask what their definition of a “good” church is. Bad ones are, in their deluded fantasy world, presumably ones that are inclusive of gay people, not KJV-only and don’t preach that an all-loving god slaughtered millions for his good pleasure in the OT and claims eternal fire for most of humanity in the NT.
I grew up attending a Southern Baptist church, and a fundamentalist Christian school that billed itself as nondenominational but I found that most of the faculty referred to themselves as “independent Baptist”. The newer faculty were required to have attended Bob Jones, Pensacola Christian, Tennessee Temple, or some other super fundamentalist college.
My mom and stepdad got into an IFB church after they moved to a new community. They first tried the huge Southern Baptist church in the town they moved into but felt it was too impersonal and that it was full of “rich people”. Somehow they ended up in an IFB church with about 100 members. My mom and stepdad had moved from their community, away from church and friends, and these folks made them feel welcome. My mom got more radicalized on the far right after getting involved in that church – she got involved in GOP politics and working on campaigns.
So from my perspective, my mom and stepdad were looking for a welcoming community and found it in that IFB church.
You couldn’t pay me to go there.
I realize this is a bit of a sidebar–but how did the largest church in the world end up in Hammond IN? Where were all those people coming from? Northwest Indiana in my experience is one of the few areas in my state that has historically been majority Black folks, highly industrialized, and (I’d have assumed) pretty pro-union. While Indiana generally has a lot of evangelical white folks, Hammond in particular is not where I would have guessed Hyles would have had such huge success at church building… yet he obviously did. What was up there, were people coming from all over the midwest to be a part of Hyles’ church?
Most of the church’s attendance came from (and still does) from their bus routes. I believe the church ran 200+ busses at one time. It’s hard to get accurate attendance numbers. I’ve longed believed First Baptist plays loose with the “facts” concerning their attendance. When the church voted on whether to hire John Wilkerson, 2,000 or so members voted — a far cry from 17,000 people.
Years ago, I knew a Hyles-Anderson grad who said his church ran hundreds in attendance. How did he arrive at this number? Sunday school+morning service+evening service+midweek service, viola! 300 in attendance. 😂😂
I was studying on the internet. This question happened about are most Independent Fundamental Baptists Calvinistic or Free Will? So I got on your website trying to find out. I think you’ve covered that a few times. I think my deeper gyst was an attempt to prove that historically Calvinists have been just as judgmental and legalistic as free will Christians. I think I know the answer to that part of it but I still need to fool with it.
It is truly sad to see so many people loose there faith and turn their back on God, as was the case of some in Paul’s day. (1Timothy 1:6 )
For argument sake, if there is a God who does exist and did create all things and does care for you (for God Is Love) and everyone else and your are a sinner (who could seriously deny that fact) destined to die one day, do you not think that He would also make it possible for you to live again AFTER your grave. Aftre all He (God) made all the planets and universe, do you think it would be too hard for Him to bring you back from the dead and give you life again.
God offers you that life which is refered to as “eternal life” “everlasting life” because once He give you the gift of life after you have died, it is yours forever (Genesis 3:22).
You WILL find evil everywhere in this world. And it is most likely in most demoninations. Even in the original 12 Aposles who were hand picked by Christ Jesus himself you find Judas.
In a nut shell NO man, angel, or created being can give this Gift but God only.
It is God’s gift to give and it is God’s responsibilty to own it. HE DIED FOR YOU & ME.
That is His gift, from the MOST LOVING GOD & SAVIOUR OF THE UNIVERSE.
HE DIED FOR YOU ON A CROSS.
He (Jesus) was despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and pain and acquainted with grief.
…
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our wickedness [our sin, our injustice, our wrongdoing],
The punishment [required] for our well-being fell on Him,
And by His stripes (wounds) we are healed.
…
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth [to complain or defend Himself],
(Isaiah 53)
While He [Jesus] was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased and delighted! Listen to Him!” When the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were terrified. But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” (Matthew 17)
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🍆Are you done masturbating now? 🍆
😈Sigh 😈
Rotflol. Giggle, chuckle, snort.
“Forreal”, I have no interest in eternal life, I believe that the god you worship is just a storybook character, and I unconditionally reject “salvation.” I do not consent to anyone dying in my place, not even temporarily.
And “sin” is an imaginary crime against an imaginary victim.
As for your alleged god creating the universe, that’s arrant nonsense. First of all, the silly bugger described in the Bible couldn’t even deal with a Talking Snake™ in its garden of Magic Trees (Genesis 3). Organizing subatomic particles into elements is waaay above its pay grade. Secondly, because of the equivalence of matter and energy, energy had to already exist before your god could take even a single action. Therefore, creation ex nihilo is a contradiction in terms and at best a creator-god can only rearrange stuff that’s already there.
Your argument was finished the minute you said “for argument sake”. I could just as easily say “let’s assume the Unicorn Goddess exists” then go on to expound points similar to yours.
The problem here is that you do not realize that people on this blog know the Bible stories quite well, have heard your argument numerous times, and found it all lacking in any form of reality. Many see the Christian bible as devoid of facts, created by men who interpreted their world through their limited understanding. You can list as many bible verses as you like, but since your book is rejected, then your arguments based on that book are baseless.
Hi Bruce, as a Christian I really like your blogs! I agree with much of what you say about your experiences while in the IFB cult! I and my family were members of an IFB cult for 8 years and I thank God that he wooed us out in a way that we did not lose our love for him! I began to love people again with compassion and consideration and stopped judging them by the almighty IFB yardstick! My daughter was subjected to a lot of mental and sometimes physical abuse while attending an IFB school! I sometimes wish that I could meet some of those arrogant assholes in a dark alley and see what kind of courage they display when they are all by themselves! I only wish of course , I would not want to stoop to their level!