Instead, we [Christians] are trying to save them and to love even the adult trans-person, as our Christian duty requires of us. Consequently, I have never heard anyone in church speaking contemptuously of them—just the self-destructive choice they had made. [Mann, evidently, is deaf.]
….
In light of these findings and the participation of trans males in violent groups like Antifa, it is nothing short of criminal incitement to promote transgenderism, especially in view of the availability of better alternatives.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
— The Apostle Paul
I know, I know, there’s no doubt about it He lives in my heart and I’m gonna shout it I know, I know my sins are forgiven And I’m on my way to a place that’s called Heaven
— Chorus for the song I Know
Those of us raised in Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) churches heard preachers say countless times that Christians have a “know-so salvation,” that believers have heart knowledge, not head knowledge of Jesus Christ. Preachers often encouraged new Christians to write down the date, time, and place they asked Jesus into their hearts to save them in their KJV Bibles. Getting saved is the most important decision you will ever make, IFB preachers say. Never, ever forget the moment Jesus saved you!
What is the substance of this know-so salvation? The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, as stated in 1 Corinthians 15: 3,4:
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
That’s the IFB gospel in a nutshell. Believe these theological propositions, really, really, really mean it, and you are forever saved. IFB churches preach transactional salvation. These are the facts, believe them in your heart, and you are saved. Typically, a sinner is presented the gospel by an altar worker or a soulwinner using a plan such as the Roman’s Road, at which time the salvation prospect is asked “would you like to ask Jesus into your heart? If the sinner answers in the affirmative, he is asked to pray the “sinner’s prayer,” asking Jesus to forgive him of his sins and come into his heart to save him. And just like that, a new Christian is minted and promised a home in Heaven after he dies. It takes less time to get saved than it does to take a shower.
This way of saving sinners is often called “one-two-three, repeat after me,” or “decisional regeneration.” (Please see One, Two, Three, Repeat After Me: Salvation Bob Gray Style.) Simply put, salvation is simple and instantaneous. All one must do is believe. I am sure someone will ask, Bruce, what about repentance? Good question. IFB churches and preachers take one of two approaches to repentance:
Repentance means a change of mind. I once was against Christ, and now I am for him.
Repentance means turning from known sin to Christ.
Most IFB adherents I know believe the former; that dealing with sin takes place after salvation; that it is up to God to clean up sinners after they are saved. Many IFB preachers believe that saying a sinner must turn from sin before he is saved is “works salvation.” Those who believe a sinner must repent to be saved often accuse the “change of mind” crowd of preaching cheap grace.
According to IFB orthodoxy, once a person is saved, he can never, ever, for any reason lose his salvation. Once-saved-always-saved, the thinking goes. That’s why some IFB Christians think I am still a believer; that the sinner’s prayer I prayed as a fifteen-year-old boy guaranteed my salvation and a home in Heaven after I die. While I will lose rewards in Heaven, I will still dwell with God for eternity. No matter what I say or do — including professing atheism — I am forever saved!
Of course, many IFB preachers can’t stomach the thought of Evangelical-turned-atheist Bruce Gerencser going to the same Heaven as they after I die. These preachers confidently say that I never was a True Christian®. Wait a minute. I heard the gospel, came under conviction, went forward at the appointed time, knelt at the altar, and prayed the sinner’s prayer. I did everything my pastor told me to do, sincerely believing that Jesus is my Lord and Savior. How is it, then, that I am not a Christian?
I left the IFB church movement in the late 1980s because I believed most IFB preachers preached a shallow, truncated gospel. This led me to Calvinism and a Reformed understanding of salvation. It seemed inconceivable to me then, and still does today, that one can live any way he wants and still be a Christian; that there is no connection between saving faith and good works. I came to see that the cheap grace gospel preached by many IFB churches produced unsaved Christians; people whom the Bible calls the sevenfold children of Hell.
This warped understanding of good works results in IFB churches filled with people who think that the sum of their Christian lives is the momentary decision they made years before. Many IFB preachers believe that sanctification (being separated, and set apart for God’s service) happens at the moment of salvation. I came to see that this too was a corruption of what the Bible actually taught; that sanctification was a progressive work of God in the lives of believers. How does a Christian know he is progressing in sanctification? Good works. If you are not growing and maturing in faith and good works, it’s a sign that you might not be a Christian.
Why is it that IFB preachers are known for preaching the basics of Christianity over and over and over again? Why must church members be constantly reminded to read their Bibles, pray, attend church, and practice other normative things Christians do? Why do IFB churches have elaborate codes of conduct church members are expected to obey? Why do members have such a hard time following these man-made rules? One needs to look no further than to the bankrupt gospel preached by many IFB preachers. When you separate repentance and good works from the gospel, this is the result. Sadly, many IFB Christians haven’t progressed or matured from the moment they were saved. They remain people who are on pabulum, unable to eat and digest the meat of the Word. We see this in the noxious, hateful behavior of many IFB believers who comment on this site. Childish, to say the least.
I am sure a few of my atheist readers will say “who cares?” Christianity is bunk. Why should I care about what IFB Christians believe or don’t believe? Fair enough, but this post isn’t for you. My goal is to provoke IFB believers to do good works. Maybe they will think a bit about what their churches and pastors actually teach and practice. Maybe they will ask themselves, “what fruit does the IFB gospel produce?” I am not an anti-theist; an atheist who delusionally thinks the end of Christianity is nigh. Religion is here to stay for generations to come. Would the world not be a better place if IFB Christians take seriously the teachings of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount; who not only love God but also love their neighbors as themselves? The world is a much better place for all of us if Christians are people of love and compassion; people who value and care for the least of these.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Yesterday, I responded to a long comment from an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Christian named Gary Richards. (I have since learned that his real name is Gary MacKay.) You can read my response to MacKay here.
As is my custom, I sent MacKay an email with a link to my post. MacKay responded to my article today with what follows. My response is indented and italicized. All spelling and grammar in the original
It was a nice try Bruce, we both know that anyone can defend any which way side they want to but there is only one truth.
Much like Dr. David Tee, MacKay thinks there is one truth — his. This is a common trait among IFB adherents. Believers are encouraged to be certain in their beliefs, even though they lack sufficient education and knowledge about a given subject. They know what they know, but they don’t know what they don’t know. Certainty breeds arrogance. I’m right, you’re wrong, end of discussion, the thinking goes. That’s why it is almost impossible to have a profitable discussion with an IFB Christian. MacKay didn’t come to this site to engage is thoughtful discussion. He was here to preach and condemn.
MacKay’s behavior doesn’t surprise me. Scores of like-minded people have come before him. MacKay is deeply immersed in IFB culture. He thinks it is normal to preach AT people who disagree with you, uttering threats of judgment and eternal damnation. At some level, I feel sorry for the MacKays of the world. I was once just like them. I understand firsthand the cost of needing to be right all the time. It is a wearying way to live.
Sure, yeah, at age 15 you started, went to IFB schools, started churches & preached for all those years yet this goes on with so many and as you know Christ will say on that day “I never knew you”.
MacKay continues to delegitimize my story, suggesting that I was a fraud, just like so many other preachers today. He reminds me that one day I will stand before Christ and be cast into utter darkness.
He is alluding to Matthew 7:21-23:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
As a proponent of IFB soteriology, MacKay believes that a person is saved by assenting to a set of theological propositions; that once a person is saved, good works play no part in the believer’s continuing salvation. Of course, I was saved in the IFB way. The difference, of course, is that I actually believed good works matter. I actually believed that faith without works is dead; that Christians will be judged one day, not on their mental assent to Bible facts, but by their works. Jesus made this clear in Matthew 25, and James made it clear that believers show their faith by their good works.
MacKay’s bankrupt gospel is why IFB churches are filled with people who think they have no obligation to love their neighbors as themselves; that nothing they say or do will keep them out of Heaven. Such people, if there really is a God, as portrayed in the Bible, are in for a rude awakening someday. My reading of the Protestant Christian Bible suggests that God really does care about how believers live; that good works matter.
In your case you just plain walked away and are essentially an anti-christ. If you really had fruit of your salvation & the Holy Spirit put His seal on you we both know you wouldn’t be where you are today. They must have left out the part that works can’t save you while you attended your education.
MacKay didn’t read any of my autobiographical writing, so he really doesn’t know or understand my story. Had he bothered to read my story, he would have learned that I didn’t one day, out of the blue, walk away from Christianity. I spent several years agonizing over my beliefs, worried that I was losing my faith. I desperately want to remain a Christian. After all, I had been part of the Evangelical church for fifty years. I pastored churches in three states for twenty-five years. My whole life and that of my family revolved around loving, following, and serving Jesus. I was all in, as were Polly and our children (not that they knew anything different). Walking away from all that I ever knew was hardly inconsequential. I shed many a tear over what was lost, much like someone who went through an acrimonious divorce.
According to MacKay, I am an anti-Christ. His goal is to demean and slander. He returns to his claim that I never was saved, and then adds that I never understood the Christian gospel. MacKay knows better — where can I take the gospel test? — but he’s not interested in interacting with me fairly and honestly. All that matters to him is discrediting me, painting me as an anti-Christ, false prophet, and tool of Satan. All MacKay has done is reveal to fair-minded people that he is a “tool.”
I have a hard time believing that you actually get death threats or any threats at all by Christians, possibly by those that were in your same situation where you were pushed into a Christian lifestyle & never given a choice to truly choose. There are many such as yourself that got hold of the wrong spirit as you yourself demonstrate & profess. This has always been even though as we ramp up to that day there is more & more as we have been told. It isn’t a surprise. I would like to think there is hope for your surrender to Christ even though your work is Satanic & has led many astray, but even though, Paul was forgiven & became the apostle to the gentiles.
MacKay concludes his screed by calling me a liar; that my claims of death threats or any threats at all are lies, lies, lies, and more lies. Long-time readers know firsthand the threats I have received over the years. One IFB believer threatened to slit my throat; another threatened to assault my daughter with Down syndrome; and still others have said they are praying for my sudden, painful death. Then there are the repeated, often daily, threats of Hell and eternal torture, with loving Christians hoping I drop dead today. I have even received threats from IFB preachers. These experiences are, sadly, not rare. They are a reminder of the rotten, violent underbelly of Evangelical Christianity, and, in particular, the IFB church movement.
That MacKay thinks I am lying? I simply don’t care. I know what I know. I hope he never has to experience what I have experienced at the hands of so-called followers of the Prince of Peace.
MacKay concludes with an orgastic fervor, saying I got ahold of the wrong spirit; that I am Satanic. You know what is interesting? MacKay made no attempt to evangelize me. He made no attempt to lead to the right path. He made no effort to share the gospel with me. Why is that?
Gary is right about two things. First, I have led many people astray. By telling my story and helping people who have questions and doubts about Christianity, I have helped people see that there is a better day. I don’t evangelize people. My objective has never been to win souls to Loki. If anything, my goal has been to show people that there are better expressions of the Christian faith than the IFB cult. Do I want the IFB church movement to die off? Absolutely. So many good people have been psychologically harmed, and, at times, physically harmed, by IFB beliefs and practices. There are kinder, gentler expressions of Christian faith for people who truly want a faith that practices the two great commandments: loving God and loving your fellow man.
Do some people who come in contact with me lose their faith? Sure, but I never push people to deconvert. All I am is a storyteller; a facilitator. I simply don’t care all that much about what people believe as long as those beliefs don’t cause harm to them or their families. MacKay’s beliefs materially harm people, so I make no apology for opposing, with what little strength I have left, the IFB church movement.
Second, MacKay claims I got ahold of the wrong spirit. On this account, he is absolutely right. The spirit of whiskey, that is. 🙂
Well, enough.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Some Catholic school alumni are traumatized by the experience. I don’t think I was, if only because what I experienced in the church itself—specifically, from a particular priest—was far worse than any misfortune I incurred in the classroom.
Moreover, I did nothing to deserve sexual exploitation at the hands of that prelate. But some might argue that I had the impact of Sister Elizabeth’s hand against my face coming to me as a consequence of my insolence.
So what was my offense? Another kid mentioned something about a movie popular at the time—Midnight Cowboy, if I remember correctly. “Nobody should see it,” she pronounced. “It’s dirty.”
To which I retorted, “How do you know?”
The funny thing, in recalling the episode more than half a century later, is that I wasn’t trying to be a smart-ass, though I had the capacity for it. My question, really, was almost innocent; it just kind of popped out of me.
And I think, perhaps, she reacted more out of shock that even though I could be snarky—I’ve concluded that it’s part of my DNA—I actually was a rather well-behaved kid and a good student. Plus, being an altar boy gave me some cachet in that milieu at a time when I didn’t know, and people I knew didn’t use, words like “cachet” and “milieu.” If anything, I suspect that until that moment, she rather liked me—or, at least hated me less than she and other nuns seemed to hate other kids.
So what got me to thinking about that episode? A recent news story. To wit: a parent in a Utah school district filed a petition to have a book banned from a local school.
All right . . .You probably think that there’s nothing unusual about that. After all, the Beehive State is one of the most conservative states in the nation. It may well have been the closest thing the United States had to a theocracy until Ron De Santis, Kay Ivey, and Greg Abbott started to make the fantasies of the Christian Right come true.
Ah, but there’s a twist to this story. Actually, two twists. One is the book in question. The other: The parent in question has actually read the book.
That I had to write the previous sentence speaks volumes (yes, I know) about the current state of affairs. The folks who are emptying bookshelves in your kid’s school or your library don’t make sheepish admissions, as I might about having lived in New York City for much of my life, but never having visited the Statue of Liberty, about not having ventured between the covers of what they would keep from the rest of us. They boast about it and double down on their ignorance by saying they didn’t need to thumb through the pages; they just had to scan the reviews or ads for it.
That is why, if your kid is going to learn the truth about intergenerational trauma or brutality that underlies relationships that are supposed to nurture and protect the people in them, it won’t come from Mausor The Bluest Eye—at least, until Junior and Missy are old enough to procure or borrow them on their own, just as they won’t be able to look at Michelangelo’s David until they take a trip to Italy.
And, in the school district in which the parent I mentioned filed the petition, the yung’uns won’t learn about adultery, incest, and drunkenness from the book that the parent wants to ban. Just think of the irreparable harm that wonderfully responsible adult is sparing young, innocent people by shielding them from this:
See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them to you, and you may do with them as you wish.
Then they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father.
Neither of those passages depicts any suitable role models. Nor does this:
[W]henever he went to his brother’s wife, he would waste his semen on the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother.
In addition to drunkenness, pimping children, incest, adultery (with an in-law, no less!), and masturbation, the book in question also mentions homosexuality, bestiality, fratricide, homicide, and hit-and-run fatherhood. Not the sort of stuff you want your precious child to dive into, is it?
The ostensible purpose of bringing up all of those topics is to warn people away from them—well, except for the homicide and hit-and-run fatherhood: Depending on who does those things—specifically, one who does them—they can be justified. But, still, you don’t want your kids to do such things, do you?
And if you don’t want your little ones to end up in Chelsea or the Castro district, you don’t want to learn about “alternative lifestyles” at such a young age. Perhaps that’s how the parent in question felt in filing the petition to ban the book I’m about to mention.
Since I know my audience, I am sure that, by now, most of you realize that book is The Book—a.k.a., the Bible.
Now, the parent—whose name and other identifying information were not made public—probably doesn’t want to make the Bible disappear from school bookshelves. A state legislator named Ken Ivory called the petition a “political stunt” (as if members of his own party haven’t pulled them!) and points out that the state law the parent cited as the basis for the ban is intended to keep “pornographic material” from soiling the hands and minds of babes. That same law, which purports to define what is “obscene”: It doesn’t have to be the work as a whole; it merely needs to contain mentions of sexual arousal, stimulation, or any number of other human activities.
Sir Kenneth Clark admitted that he could not define “civilization.” But, turning his gaze to the Notre Dame cathedral, he said, “I know I’m looking at it.” When, in giving his opinion in Jacobellus vs. Ohio (1964), US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart conceded that he couldn’t define “obscenity,” but insisted, “I know it when I see it.” Most people, if they’re being honest, would admit they can’t articulate a cogent, succinct definition of what they want to encourage or keep from their kid any more than a kid can learn what is right or wrong—or simply what a parent or other authority figure doesn’t approve of—unless they see examples of it. If you don’t want your children to masturbate or pleasure themselves with your family’s dog (something that was legal, under most circumstances, in Sweden until 2014 ), how do they know to avoid it (which, of course, they won’t, at least in the case of solo sex) if they don’t know what it is or why it’s so wrong?
I think that’s the point of the petition. If anything containing nudity or depicting sex acts is banned, not only will Fifty Shades of Gray white out or fade to black (If I were going to ban it for anything, it would be its awful writing. How do I know about it?;-)), the Bible and any number of textbooks would be consigned to the ash heap. Hmm . . . Maybe that’s the point: After all, the book banners’ (and garden-variety bigots’) champions know they need “low information voters” to get elected!
Oh, and Sister Elizabeth, wherever you are: If you actually saw Midnight Cowboy, all is forgiven. Entre nous, it’s really good. Don’t worry, I won’t tell anyone if you agree!
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I am widely regarded as an expert on the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement. I was raised in an IFB home, attended IFB churches as a youth, prepared for the ministry at an IFB college, married an IFB pastor’s daughter, pastored IFB churches, and have studied and followed the IFB church movement most of my adult life. Yet, it is not uncommon for an IFB zealot to read one or more of my posts on the IFB church movement and conclude that I don’t know anything about IFB churches, pastors, colleges, and parachurch ministries. Gary Richards, whose real name is Gary MacKay, is one such man.
What is obvious in the 1st paragraph is that you really know nothing of the IFB or IB churches. Their only claim is that they believe in the total Word of God & teach that from it. The term “old fashioned” is just that not from 2,000 years ago, be serious. What this means is from back in the day before the church was hijacked from liberal & progressive ideologies.
“Old Fashioned” is a term used by IFB churches and pastors to denote that their beliefs and practices predate the modern age; that their beliefs hail from better days in times past. Sometimes, the term is used to suggest that present beliefs are the same as those of Jesus, his disciples, and first-century followers of Jesus.
Many Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) churches advertise themselves as “old- fashioned” churches. Many IFB preachers call themselves old-fashioned preachers. What do they mean when they say they are an old-fashioned church or an old-fashioned preacher?
An old-fashioned church is one where members yearn for the past — usually the 1950s. In their mind, if society and Christianity would return to the 1950s all would be well. In the 1950s, Blacks knew their place, women were barefoot and pregnant, birth control was hard to come by, abortion was illegal, homosexuals and atheists were in the closet, and Joseph McCarthy terrorized Americans with attempts to root out communism. In the 1950s, we fought a war against communism, teachers still prayed and read the Bible in school, creationism was considered good science, and Christianity controlled the public space.
Then came the rebellious 1960s and 1970s, and everything changed. Sixty years later, Blacks no longer know their place, Whites are becoming a minority, couples no longer get married, women have access to birth control, homosexuals and atheists are out of the closet, a Kenyan-born Muslim socialist communist black man was president, abortion is legal, prayer and Bible reading in school are banned, creationism is considered religious dogma, same-sex marriage is legal, and Christianity is no longer given a preferential seat at the head of the cultural table.
From the fundamentalist Christian’s perspective, I readily understand why people yearn for the old-fashioned days of the 1950s. The fifties were a time when their brand of Christianity was the norm. Now they are fighting to be heard. Thousands of church members have left, seeking out the friendlier confines of generic, hip Evangelical churches. Instead of hard preaching against sin, Christians clamor for pastors who will “feed” them and minister to their felt needs. Most of all, they want to be entertained. Nones and atheists are increasing in number, and more and more people consider themselves spiritual or not religious. Pluralism and secularism are on the rise, and cultural Christianity is the norm and not the exception.
So what’s an old-fashioned Baptist church like? Their services are quite traditional; traditional meaning as it was in the 1950s. The focus is on “hard” preaching, often from the King James Version of the Bible. The goal is to convert sinners and strengthen church members so they can withstand the wiles of the devil and pressure from the “world.” Everything the old-fashioned Baptist church does is a throwback to yesteryear — an era when preachers preached hard, hymns were sung, altar calls were given, couples stayed married, women saved themselves for marriage and the kitchen, and the Christian church was the hub around which the community revolved.
Millions of Americans attend some sort of an old-fashioned church, even if the Baptist name is not over the front door. They love the respite their church gives them from the evil, sinful, atheistic world they live in. They love the certainty they hear in their pastor’s sermons. They are glad to be a part of a group that thinks just like they do. For those who desire to live in the 1950s, an old-fashioned church fits the bill. It heals their angst and gives them peace. It does not matter if their beliefs are true or whether their practice accurately reflects the 1950s. People seeking and finding value, hope, peace, and direction do not require truth. All they require is faith, and their belief that their “old-fashioned” version of Christianity is true. This is this power of myth.
Keeping the straight path of God’s Word bothers many since adoption and integration of evil & worldly vices, lifestyles and ideology ain’t happening. To suggest that it’s straight out of “one flew over the cuckoos nest just shows your true spirit. There are those & have been that were not drawn by God & grew up in the church & can’t wait to get out & talk smack about it, this is fleshly behavior, nothing new. There are preachers, pastors & teachers that were never called by God for this gift and promote a false gospel & distort God’s Word. There are ex- church attendees maybe even members that have left and claim to be now unbelievers. I would suggest they were never born again and never received God’s Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ sent. This is and always has been a problem since Jesus walked on this earth in the flesh.
Based on what Richards wrote above, it sure seems that there are a lot of unsaved people in the church he attends. All that old-fashioned preaching, yet people are still unsaved; “unsaved” meaning people who believe and behave differently from Richards. IFB zealots are known for their harsh, hateful judgments of people who dare to leave their cult. I have received thousands of emails, comments, and social media messages from Evangelical Christians. IFB Christians — a subset of Evangelicalism — stand at the top of the chart when it comes to people who hurl invectives, hatred, and even death threats. I can’t tell you the last time I have interacted with an IFB believer who was a thoughtful, respectful human being. When called out on their awful behavior, they make all sorts of excuses and justifications, but the fact remains that their ill-bred behavior does little, if anything, to advance the cause of Christ. I remain convinced that the Sermon on the Mount is missing from most IFB Bibles.
LOL – Old fashioned preaching. Preaching that doesn’t make people feel good but rather strokes their flesh is what worldly church attendees desire and it’s their sign they probably are not saved. Once the pastor of the flock preaches on a topic or subject that makes you uncomfortable is your sign. If it makes you butt hurt then go cry to the devil. Now, when it comes to feeling the Holy Ghost from certain type of preaching, you’re not qualified since you’ve never known the Holy Spirit.
Did you notice how Richards seems to be the arbiter of who is and isn’t saved? I thought God was the only one who knows whether someone was saved?
Richards wants me to know that I don’t know anything about the subjects at hand because I never was saved; that the Holy Spirit never lived inside of me. This claim, of course, is ludicrous. I was part of the Evangelical church for fifty years. Saved at age fifteen, I spent thirty-five years loving, serving, and following Jesus; preaching the gospel, teaching the commands of Christ, winning souls, and starting churches. Richards tries to dismiss my life out of hand, but he can’t. The evidence suggests that I was once was a devoted follower of Christ. That Richards can’t square his theology with my story is his problem, not mine.
Richards cleans carpets for a living. By all accounts, he is good at what he does. Imagine if I went around the Internet leaving comments that said, “Gary Richards doesn’t know how to clean carpets. He can say whatever ever he wants, but I know he can’t clean carpets.” Why, Richards would rightly be outraged. Why? I am dismissing out of hand his carpet cleaning experience. No matter what Richards says, I know better. I am absolutely right. I wonder if Richards will get my sermon illustration?
I have been to Charasmatic churches where fakers abound, doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see where these type of churches came out of. As with all fakes you will naturally spin them into the Christian religion even though they are not. It’s just as ludicrous as to trying to convince true believers that a lesbian preacher in a gay church is Christian. I’ve been to quiet lukewarm boring churches that would put anyone to sleep where members go just to punch in their time card and get Sunday over with. Been to churches that have no gospel & a lot of strange wierd things going on like meeting in the basement for a variety of herbs and such. Then you get to a church where the preacher speaks louder which does keep your attention, preaches on the Word right out of the KJV with a non scripted message direct from the Holy Spirit that speaks to everyone, you know you’re in the right place. Worse to y’all no doubt is that message ties directly what you heard before you hot to church.
Again, Richards seems to know who is and isn’t a Christian. He is showing signs of having Elijah Syndrome.
Elijah saw himself as the one remaining true prophet in the land. God reminded him in First Kings 19:18 that there were actually 7,000 prophets who had not yet bowed a knee to Baal.
Every time I think of this story, I am reminded that many Evangelical preachers see themselves as some sort of modern-day Elijah. And like Elijah, each thinks he is the one remaining prophet in the community standing up for God, the Bible, and Evangelical morality. Such preachers delude themselves into thinking that they alone are standing true, that they alone are preaching the right message.
….
I remember thinking this of myself back when I pastored Somerset Baptist Church in Mount Perry, Ohio. Everywhere I looked I saw churches and pastors who were not winning souls and who were not waging war against Satan, sin, and godlessness. As the church began to grow, I convinced myself that people were attending the church because they wanted to hear a true man of God.
….
This “I alone remain true to God” way of thinking is what turns preachers into insufferable, arrogant, hypocritical pricks. Thinking that they have some sort of inside knowledge about God and the Bible, they are determined to share what they think they know with everyone, even if people don’t want to hear it.
Preachers such as Jack Hyles,Fred Phelps,James Dobson, JD Hall, and Greg Locke didn’t start out as pontificating bloviators. Over time, they convinced themselves that they had been chosen uniquely by God to speak on his behalf. Once convinced of this, their pronouncements became more shrill and severe. These Elijah-like prophets of God, thinking that most churches and pastors are Biblically and morally compromised, withdrew from the larger Christian body.
— end of quote —
Over the course of his comment, what has Richards done? He has narrowed his list of “who is a True Christian®” further and further until he reaches a point where only he and a few other believers are True Christians®.
Now, your KJV problem, obviously you haven’t researched that enough. If you study with the greek & Hebrew then you know it’s the closest available in English. The changes in translations like the NIV are crazy & even the creator of the NIV apologized for it before his death. Same with other translations. Sure, the KJV is a pain in the butt to those that don’t study God’s Word.
I don’t have a “KJV problem.” It is Richards who reveals that he is woefully ignorant about the King James Version and other English translations. He is also ignorant of the various manuscripts underlying the various translations; that KJV is based on a small number of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts; that other translations use a wealth of manuscripts for their text. No, the issue here is this: Richards believes the KJV is supernaturally inspired, inerrant, and infallible — an irrational, unsupportable belief. If Richards wants to spar with me on the KJV, I am more than happy to do so. I think he might find that I know a wee bit about the subject; especially since I attended a KJV-only college and read, studied, and preached from the KJV most of my ministerial career. I might even know something something about the Hebrew and Greek texts. 🙂
But……..for the life of me I don’t understand how a pastor of 25 years changes gears & goes into calvanism. I mean, to be a pastor you should be full of the Holy Spirit, called by God to preach and you know God’s Word. Then to walk away & become a humanist & athiest? It isn’t a great surprise because we have countless counterfeit ministries & fallen preachers that were never real. That is a problem & the Word tells us this as we draw closer to that time.
Now we get to Richards’ grand finale.
First, it’s CALVINISM not calvanism — a spelling error common among people who know nothing about Calvinism. I am more than happy to discuss why I embraced Evangelical Calvinism with Richards if he is up to the task. I suspect he is not. The basic IFB position on Calvinism is this: “we ‘agin it. It’s from the pit of Hell.” I doubt he has read John Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion or any other book written by Calvinistic authors. Richards might want to check out my series Why I Became a Calvinist — Part One.
Richards is having trouble squaring my story with his IFB theology. HOW CAN THESE THINGS BE? Richards says. I don’t know what to tell him. I once was an Evangelical Christian and now I am an atheist and humanist. The inability of Richards and others like him to take the round peg of my life and put it in a square hole forces them to dismiss my story and deem me unsaved. Sadly, they never ponder whether the real problem is their theology or their understanding of the Bible.
Richards says I am a “fallen preacher” that never was real. I think deep down he knows better; that if I weren’t a Christian, neither is he.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
The Black Collar Crime Series relies on public news stories and publicly available information for its content. If any incorrect information is found, please contact Bruce Gerencser. Nothing in this post should be construed as an accusation of guilt. Those accused of crimes are innocent until proven guilty.
Naasón Joaquín García, pastor of La Luz del Mundo, a Mexico-based Evangelical church with branches in the U.S. claiming more than one million members, was charged in 2019 with human trafficking, child pornography production, and child rape. (Church website)
García, 50, faces 26 felony counts that range from human trafficking and production of child pornography to rape of a minor. The charges detail allegations involving three girls and one woman between 2015 and 2018 in Los Angeles County.
The fundamentalist Christian church, whose name translates to The Light of the World, was founded in 1926 by García’s grandfather. It has been the subject of child sex abuse allegations for years but authorities in Mexico have never filed criminal charges. It has more than 15,000 churches in 58 countries, according to its website. The church’s followers must adhere to a strict moral code in exchange for the promise of eternal salvation.
García — who was a minister in Los Angeles and other parts of Southern California before becoming the church’s leader — coerced the victims into performing sex acts by telling them that refusing would be going against God, authorities said. He allegedly forced the victims, who were members of the church, to sexually touch themselves and each other. One of his co-defendants also allegedly took nude photographs of the victims and sent the pictures to García.
García told one of the victims and others in 2017, after they had completed a “flirty” dance wearing “as little clothing as possible,” that kings can have mistresses and an apostle of God cannot be judged for his actions, the complaint states.
The leader of the Light of the World Church, Mexican Naasón Joaquín García, was sent to a state prison in Kern County, California, to continue his sentence of 16 years and 8 months, after he pleaded guilty to three counts of sexual abuse of minors. The religious leader pleaded guilty on June 6 to sexual assault of three underage victims.
This prison is located in Delano, a little more than 150 miles north of Los Angeles. He was incarcerated in the Central Men’s Jail in that city, until Wednesday when he was transferred.
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The sentence is the highest that could be imposed on him after an agreement reached with the California District Attorney’s Office. He avoided going to trial on 19 criminal charges including statutory rape, possession of child pornography and human trafficking, which would have placed him in a position to be sentenced to life in prison.
Naasón Joaquín García has been in prison since June 3, 2019, when he was arrested at Los Angeles International Airport with two of his assistants, who were also implicated in the case. This period between when he was arrested and sentenced will be considered as part of the sentence against him.
The leader of the Light of the World Church, Mexican Naasón Joaquín García, was sent to a state prison in Kern County, California, to continue his sentence of 16 years and 8 months,after he pleaded guilty to three counts of sexual abuse of minors. The religious leader pleaded guilty on June 6 to sexual assault of three underage victims.
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The conviction against Naasón Joaquín García accelerated a civil lawsuit filed by Sochil Martin, a former member of the Light of the World Church.
In February 2020, she sued La Luz del Mundo and its leader for allegedly running a sex trafficking ring that economically exploited victims and sexually abused her since she was 16 years old.
The Light of the World Christian church has its international headquarters in Guadalajara, Mexico, was founded in 1926 by Aaron Joachim, grandfather of Naason. It is currently present in 60 countries and claims to have up to 5 million followers.
After the arrest of its leader, hundreds of followers protested, claiming that Naasón Joaquín was unjustly accused, despite the testimonies and evidence presented against him, which forced him to reach an agreement with the California District Attorney’s Office, in order to receive a lesser sentence.
Meanwhile, five women, known as Jane Does, who said García sexually abused them between 2015 and 2019, filed a civil lawsuit in the Los Angeles County Superior Court, seeking damages against the church. They also named García, his wife and children, and three other women in the suit, who they said either knew about the abuse or helped groom them for García. According to the suit, the victims said they were “routinely coerced” since they were children to believe that García’s wishes were direct orders from God and that if they didn’t obey, it would “lead to catastrophic consequences including, but not limited to, eternal damnation, unspeakable tragedy, infertility, and countless other harms.”
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
The Black Collar Crime Series relies on public news stories and publicly available information for its content. If any incorrect information is found, please contact Bruce Gerencser. Nothing in this post should be construed as an accusation of guilt. Those accused of crimes are innocent until proven guilty.
Steve Greisen, a notable Evangelical moviemaker and contemporary Christian music (CCM) artist, pleaded guilty to a criminal attempt to commit online solicitation with a minor, a class 4 felony.
An El Paso County man and Christian filmmaker who was arrested in September for allegedly attempting to pay an undercover El Paso County detective to engage in sexual acts with a 14-year-old girl entered a plea agreement in court Tuesday.
Stephen Paul Greisen, 68, pleaded guilty to a criminal attempt to commit online solicitation with a minor, a class 4 felony. Within his agreement, Greisen agreed to register as a sex offender in the state of Colorado, and five years in the state’s Sex Offender Intensive Supervision Program (SOISP).
According to the arrest affidavit, Greisen made contact with the undercover officer on Sept. 7, and despite being informed twice that the age of the girl was 14, he agreed to pay $170 for sex.
“K, I can be there in 20 min?” Greisen wrote to the detective to confirm.
After arriving at the address given by the undercover detective, Greisen was arrested by authorities with $180 in his pocket, according to the affidavit.
Court records show Greisen was originally arrested on suspicion of three charges: inducement of child prostitution, patronizing a prostituted child and sexual assault on a child. He was released from El Paso County jail after posting the $35,000 bond.
Greisen operated two Christian film companies in Monument, Exploration Films Distribution, and Reel Productions, LLC, and is considered a “veteran of the Jesus movement’s 1970s-era music scene,” according to an article from Ministry Watch.
Steve Greisen, a Christian filmmaker and a veteran of the Jesus movement’s 1970s-era music scene, pled guilty Wednesday in Colorado Springs to a criminal attempt to solicit online sex with a minor.
In a plea deal, Greisen agreed to register as a sex offender and spend five years in Colorado’s supervision program for sex offenders. He had been arrested on charges for inducement of child prostitution, patronizing a prostituted child and sexual assault on a child, with a possible prison sentence of 12 years.
The plea deal was reported by The Gazette. Greisen’s attorney, Richard Bednarski, did not respond to MinistryWatch’s requests for information and comment.
As MinistryWatch reported, Greisen was arrested Sept. 7 after arranging to pay an undercover detective $170 to have sex with a 14-year-old girl. The arrest came amid efforts by local and federal officials to “identify and arrest child sexual predators.”
Greisen, who is 68, runs two Christian film companies from Monument, a small town north of Colorado Springs: Exploration Films Distribution, which says it manages distribution of over 400 films; and Reel Productions, which released “First Love,” the acclaimed film on the early years of the contemporary Christian music movement, as well as biblical the biblical thriller, “The Mystery of The Ark of The Covenant.”
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He was a singer for the 1970s Christian band, The Family, which toured with Second Chapter of Acts in 1976. In 1978 he married Second Chapter’s Nellie Ward, and for the next decade he served as that group’s tour director.
Greisen had been involved with Christian ministries both in Colorado Springs and around the country. He was also involved in founding and leading Holy Smokes, a national movement of small groups of mostly men who gather for “Faith, Friendship, Fine Tobacco & Drink.” Though not a formal, legal entity, Holy Smokes has more than 5,000 members in a Facebook group with the goal of “deconstructing harmful theology and building beloved community one cigar at a time.”
In the past, Greisen had been featured in videos and podcasts by ministries including Summit Ministries, the Colson Center, and Moody Audio. Those resources, along with Greisen’s Holy Smokes podcasts, have been withdrawn without explanation.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
The Black Collar Crime Series relies on public news stories and publicly available information for its content. If any incorrect information is found, please contact Bruce Gerencser. Nothing in this post should be construed as an accusation of guilt. Those accused of crimes are innocent until proven guilty.
In June 2020, Robert Shiflet, a youth pastor at Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas from 1997-2002, was arrested and charged with child sex trafficking. Shiflet also worked at Liberty Christian School in Argyle from 2008 to 2010.
A former Denton youth pastor who pleaded guilty on charges related to child sex trafficking will be sentenced in federal court on May 19 [2021], court records show.
Robert Shiflet, a Denton man, was arrested in June on four charges related to child sex trafficking. Shiflet initially pleaded not guilty to the four charges but later changed his plea to guilty on two charges of transporting minors across state lines for sexual activity. The other two charges were dismissed.
The incidents date back from 1997 to 2002, which overlapped with his time at Denton Bible Church. Authorities said he worked as a youth pastor in Little Rock, Arkansas during the time of the incidents and then later moved to Denton. He also worked at Liberty Christian School in Argyle from 2008 to 2010.
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Shiflet changed his plea to guilty on Nov. 30. The penalty for transporting minors across state lines for sexual activity is up to 15 years in prison and up to three years of supervised release.
According to court documents, both parties agreed to a sentence of 27 to 33 months on each count to run concurrently, although the court can still determine the appropriate sentence. Shiflet would have to register as a sex offender upon release.
A former Denton youth pastor has been sentenced to 33 months in federal prison for crimes related to child sex trafficking from two decades ago.
Robert Shiflet, 51, was ordered Tuesday to serve 33 months in federal prison and must remain under federal supervision for the rest of his life once he’s released. Shiflet was indicted last year on charges relating to child sex trafficking and pleaded guilty in November 2020 to two of the charges.
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“So I’m going to accept the plea agreement but not in any way, shape or form having anything to do with you or anything anybody has said positive about you,” U.S. District Judge Lee Rudofsky said in court, reported by the Democrat-Gazette. “But for them because they deserve some justice, even if it’s not the justice they or society should get completely.”
The newspaper reported the judge accepted the deal to help victims get some justice. The three victims at court Tuesday told the judge they would testify if the case moved to a jury trial, but said they preferred the 33-month sentence rather than risk a jury acquitting Shiflet.
“Thirty-three months is not justice but reading between the lines I have to believe the government has some concerns about this case if it went to the jury,” Rudofsky said. “I have a feeling that although these women have all said they would testify — which makes them more brave than you are on a single day of your life — they don’t want to and they want this to be done and that they are scared if this case goes to trial you will get off completely.”
According to the Democrat-Gazette, Assistant U.S. Attorney Kristin Bryant said the potential guideline sentence may have been miscalculated, leading to the range of 27 to 33 months in the plea agreement to be so far under the guidelines.
“Unfortunately, we were wrong, but that was the agreement we reached based upon our understanding at that time,” Bryant said.
Federal authorities said Shiflet worked as a youth pastor in Little Rock, Arkansas, where the case was filed, at the time of the incidents before moving to Denton.
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Shiflet was indicted on three counts of transporting minors across state lines to engage in illegal sexual activity and one count of coercing a minor to cross state lines to engage in illegal sexual activity. He pleaded not guilty in June 2020 but later reversed his plea in November 2020 to guilty of two counts of transporting.
“This defendant took advantage of his position of trust as a mentor to young people and instead used his power to isolate and sexually abuse them,” U.S. Attorney Hiland said in a news release at the time of the guilty plea. “This predatory behavior is never acceptable, but it is particularly disturbing when the offender is a youth pastor. Our office will continue to aggressively pursue those who commit these deplorable crimes.”
According to authorities, Shiflet led a group of eighth graders in May 1997 on a camping trip to Arkansas where he was able to isolate a 15-year-old girl and sexually assault her, telling her not to tell anyone. Shiflet was 27 years old at the time and a youth pastor in Denton.
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A 16-year-old girl reported that in 2002 that Shiflet, her youth pastor in Little Rock at the time, “engaged in inappropriate sexual contact with her.” One of the incidents was in the summer where he, 32 years old at the time, sexually assaulted her on a charter bus to Florida while on a youth group trip.
I said at the time, “yet another Evangelical pastor who escapes the full brunt of the law for his heinous crimes.” Adding insult to injury, Shiflet was released early from prison for good behavior.
The youth pastor found to have sexually abused 14 girls at Denton Bible Church and another church in Little Rock, Arkansas was released from prison early for good behavior.
Robert Shiflet was released from prison on January 11, 2023, after serving 25 months behind bars for repeatedly sexually assaulting two girls.
In June 2021, a federal judge sentenced Shiflet to 33 months in prison, as part of a plea agreement. At the time, the judge lamented the agreement was not for a longer prison term.
Shiflet’s victims say they did not receive notice of his early release from the U.S. Department of Justice for more than six weeks.
An email to the victims said that advance notice of his release was not possible because it was “immediate, and/or unexpected.”
Shiflet, 52, is now living in Weatherford, Texas where he is required to register as a sex offender. He will also be under supervision for life.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
The Black Collar Crime Series relies on public news stories and publicly available information for its content. If any incorrect information is found, please contact Bruce Gerencser. Nothing in this post should be construed as an accusation of guilt. Those accused of crimes are innocent until proven guilty.
Jeffrey York, a youth pastor at New Beginnings Community Church in Nipomo, California, stands accused of two counts of oral copulation by duress, two counts of lewd acts with a child under 14 with force, and other various charges.
San Luis Obispo sheriff’s detectives arrested a former youth pastor suspected of ongoing child molestation in Nipomo between 2005 and 2008, a news release from the Sheriff’s Office said.
According to the release, Jeffrey Gene York, a 53-year-old Portland, Oregon, resident and former youth pastor at New Beginnings Community Church in Nipomo, allegedly “had contact with a male victim and had sexually assaulted him for years,” an investigation by the Sheriff’s Office found.
The investigation began in September 2022 when detectives received a report of the alleged molestation, the release said, after which a “comprehensive investigation” led to an arrest warrant. “At that time, York was believed to be living in Portland, Oregon,” the release said. “Detectives were in the process of apprehending York in Oregon when on (March 27), during routine patrol, South Station deputies located a vehicle registered to Jeffrey York out of Portland, Oregon, parked in the 600 block of El Camino Real in Arroyo Grande.”
Sheriff’s deputies contacted the detectives and advised that York was in Arroyo Grande, after which he was arrested and booked into County Jail on suspicion of two counts of oral copulation by duress and two counts of lewd acts with a child under 14, the release said, along with several other charges. York’s bail was set at $400,000.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I am sure some of you are saying, “Just one?” There are more than a few Evangelical behaviors that annoy the hell (and heaven) out of me, but there is one that really irritates me, and that behavior will be the focus of this post.
I interact with Evangelical Christians every day; day in and day out, seven days a week. Emails, blog comments, social media comments, social media messages, and even letters sent via snail mail. Every day I am told I am a false prophet, a reprobate, a tool of Satan, and a deceiver. These loving, kind, thoughtful followers of Jesus attack, criticize, and judge, rarely trying to thoughtfully engage me in meaningful discussion. Sadly, their assaults have hardened me a bit, making me much more likely to tell them to “go fuck yourself” than I was years ago. When I first started seeing a counselor a decade ago, I expressed to him my naive frustration over how Evangelicals responded to me telling my story. I thought, at the time, if I just shared my story, people would understand. My counselor chuckled a bit and said, “Bruce, you think they give a shit about what you think? They don’t.” He was, of course, right.
Over the past two weeks, I have engaged in discussions with Evangelicals on my Facebook page. Whether out of boredom or wanting to reach them, I responded to comments they left on my page. Other readers did the same. They commented, and I responded. I thought, at least they will understand my viewpoint. The latest discussion was over gun control in light of the latest mass shooting. The Evangelical man, of course, was anti-gun control; a man who has a blow-up doll called Sexy Second Amendment he sleeps with every night. God knows what they do under the sheets. 🙂 Another man also weighed in on the matter. Minds weren’t being changed, but we were making the case for the regulation of assault weapons and high-capacity magazines; reasonable opinions in light of the continued slaughter of school children by murderers using weapons of war. And suddenly, the discussion was over, and all the comments disappeared. The Evangelical gun nut deleted his comments, and since our comments were in response to his, our comments were deleted too. The man also blocked me.
I have a limited amount of physical capital I can spend every day. If I take the time to respond to an Evangelical, the least they can do is not delete their comments. I realize that some Evangelicals quickly find themselves in over their heads when interacting with me. I am a former Evangelical. I know the Bible inside and out. Many Evangelicals think I am just an ignorant atheist. I am not. When such people finally realize they stepped in it, they are embarrassed, and what better way to cover up bad arguments and poorly thought-out beliefs than to delete them and pretend they were never uttered?
I think I have reached a point where when Evangelicals come in hot on social media, I am inclined to just delete their comments and ban them. Then they can whine about persecution or some other complaint butt-hurt Evangelicals are known for. I simply don’t care.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
