Today, I received the following email from a Christian man named Wesley. It is one of the most assumption-filled emails I have ever received. Based on the server logs, I suspect Wesley is a follower of Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) evangelist and pastor C.T. Townsend. So what’s with Townsend’s followers, right?
I have written several posts about Townsend:
- Emotionally Manipulating IFB Church Members through Music and Preaching Styles
- You Better be Mindful of Speaking Against a “Man of God”
- How Dare I Badmouth IFB Evangelist CT Townsend! Says Fundamentalist Christian
- How Dare I Talk Smack About IFB Evangelist C.T. Townsend
- C.T. Townsend Acolyte Says I’m a Follower of Joel Osteen — Yes, Really . . .
As you shall see below, Wesley makes all sorts of assumptions about me, none of which are true. My response is indented and italicized.
My question is serious and before you reply with a long rant, I would like you to know that as stated before it is at the heart “serious” and I would appreciate a serious reply.
I can’t read Wesley’s heart, so all I can do is respond to what he has written. I am not a mind reader. I have no way of differentiating between a “serious” and not serious email/comment. Instead, I respond to what people say. Sometimes, I give people the “Bruce Gerencser Treatment.” I make no apology for doing so. One of the great things about leaving Christianity is that I no longer have to fake play-nice to people. Attack me personally or shit on my doorstep, and I will likely give you a shellacking. Ask a thoughtful, honest question, and I will respond in kind.
Not and angry and aggressive reply reflecting your hatred but with respect as I will in no way show you disrespect.
Wesley assumes I am angry and filled with hatred. He mistakes passion and directness for anger. He mistakes disagreement for hatred. How many times do I need to say that I am not, by nature, an angry, hateful man? Can I become angry? Sure, I am human. That’s said, I am generally a pleasant, happy man — even though I live with debilitating sickness and pain.
Question: If you hate God, Christianity, etc. then why do you have an overwhelming desire to disprove, attack, undermine etc if you will, something that you believe is a fallacy or fantasy? As many other atheists do the same thing I always pondered this.
Wesley wrongly assumes I hate God. I don’t. People read my post, Why I Hate Jesus, and they conclude that I “hate” God. Such people fail to understand the nuance and context of this post. If Wesley is basing his assumptions about me on that post, I hope he will re-read the article and think about what I am actually saying. Try harder, Wesley, try harder.
I am an agnostic and an atheist. As an atheist, I believe there is no God. Based on the available evidence, I have concluded that the Christian God (Wesley’s God) is a work of fiction. Further, I have weighed the central claims of Christianity in the balance and found them wanting. Thus, I don’t “hate” God. In fact, it would be silly for me to hate God or any other fictional being. Imagine me saying I hate Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Silly, right? So it is with God.
What I DO hate is Fundamentalist Christianity. Hopefully, Wesley understands what I am saying here. I hate what Fundamentalist Christianity does to people. I hate the psychological (and, at times, physical) harm it causes. Simply put, Fundamentalist Christianity hurts people. Who are the people behind the culture war? Who are the people behind attempts to turn the United States into a theocracy? Who are the people trying to ban abortion and force LGBTQ people back in the closet? Who are the people who demand prayer and Bible reading in public schools? Who are the people who want to regulate what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms? Who are the people who want preferential treatment for their religion? Need I go on? Fundamentalist Christians, that’s who.
As long as Fundamentalist Christians do these things, I intend to push back. Are Wesley and others like him willing to “live and let live”? Of course not. There’s no king but Jesus, Evangelicals say, and as long as they keep trying to make Jesus the ruler and king over all, I intend to fight back.
The stated purpose of this blog is to help those who have questions and doubts about Christianity or who have left Christianity. My target audience had NEVER been committed followers of Jesus. Therefore, I limit my interaction with such people to responding to their emails and comments.
I am just one man with a story to tell. Unfortunately, it seems that Wesley doesn’t want me to tell my story. Evangelicals have blogs, websites, churches, and parachurch ministries, all of which are used to preach the gospel, evangelize, and tell their stories. I assume Wesley thinks this is fine. Why, then, should atheists and agnostics not do the same? I think my beliefs and values are superior to Christianity. So why wouldn’t I want to share them?
Wesley thinks I have an “overwhelming desire” to attack God/Christianity/Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am retired. Writing for this blog is my “job,” but it’s not the sum of my life. First, I am quite sick. Last night, I had my worst bout of pain — ever. Quite frankly, I wanted to die. I was flopping and thrashing on the bed, trying to find a way to lessen the pain. Nothing worked, including narcotics, NSAIDs, and potent muscle relaxers. I finally took my pain to the living room, hoping not to disturb Polly’s sleep further. She was, of course, worried. Today, I am tired and weak, but thanks be to Loki, my pain is not as bad. At no time last night did I think about God/Christianity/Bible/atheism. Sorry, Jesus ain’t that important to me.
However, the people who read this blog ARE important to me. I know that every day someone, maybe lots of someones, will find help through my writing. I know that what I do matters.
I have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. I am an avid Cincinnati Reds, Cincinnati Bengals, and Ohio State fan. I am a Lionel Trains collector. I am a photographer. I love to take road trips and eat out. And most of all, I am married to the most awesome woman in the world.
I hope Wesley understands that he has a truncated view of my life; that I don’t sit around all day raging against God. Tomorrow, my oldest son and his girlfriend are taking Polly and me to Cincinnati to watch the Reds play the Chicago Cubs. On Sunday, our youngest son and fiancée are hosting a family party. Hopefully, I get to see all of my children and grandchildren. I’m sure I will have nary a thought about God/Christianity/Bible/atheism.
If we are all going back to the dirt and there is nothing after then why bother? It seems that if Christian’s are wasting their time then would it not be, in the same sense, of equal and mutual regard concerning the plight of a zealous atheist?
Is Wesley saying that without his peculiar God that his life would not have meaning or purpose? Is he saying that non-Christians (most of the inhabitants of earth) have empty lives? Is he saying that the only reason his life matters is because the Bible says God will reward him after death?
Yes, death is the end for all of us. Yes, the afterlife is a myth. But, these facts don’t negate the fact that we DO have THIS life; that we are blessed to be among the living. Just because I will die (sooner than later) doesn’t mean that the present doesn’t matter. It does. You see, I care about others. I genuinely want what’s best for them. I want my children and their families to have better lives than I had. I want to see them prosper and live in peace. I want to help make the world a better place to live. I even want Wesley to have a good life.
I don’t believe I have ever said that Christians are wasting their time by practicing their religion. I am a proponent of free speech and freedom of (and from) religion. That said, I do think that Evangelicals are wasting their time trying to evangelize atheists. Thousands of Evangelicals have tried to win me to (or back) Jesus since 2007. I am not a prospect for Heaven, and neither are the unbelievers who read this blog. Thus, when Evangelicals continue to preach at us and attempt to use worn-out, lame apologetical methods, they are wasting their time.
If you just want to live then just live right?
Sure, but as long as Fundamentalist Christians psychologically (and, at times, physically) harm others, I can’t and won’t just sit by and do nothing. As long as Evangelical preachers sexually molest children, rape teenagers, and take sexual advantage of people, I will speak out, publicizing their abhorrent behavior for all to see. As longs as racial minorities, LGBTQ people, and non-religious people are marginalized and harmed, I will fight back.
“Live and let live” is a grand objective, but as long as we live in a world where religious zealots, bigots, and racists harm others, I can’t ignore what’s going on around me. This was true when I was a Fundamentalist Christian, and it is true now.
I hope you will reply but if you feel an overwhelming need to vent or otherwise… please refrain from doing so as I am TRULY seeking and want no part of an agenda. With warm regards and wishing you to have a wonderful day, Wesley.
For some reason, Wesley wants to control what I say or how I respond to him. Sorry, dude, the moment you hit “send,” you lost control of my response. You could have just asked a question, sans the subtle attacks on my character. Instead, you chose to do otherwise, thus my response. I believe I have answered you fairly, openly, and honestly. If you view my response as angry or hateful, that’s your problem, not mine.
I hope I have adequately responded to your assumptions and questions. If not, please let me know.
Saved by Reason,
My editor, Carolyn, often helps me out by answering emails. Unbeknownst to me, she was writing an answer to Wesley at the same time I was. Her answer appears below:
Wesley,
I am Bruce’s editor and I often help him stay abreast of his email, so I am answering you. No rant, no anger, no aggression, and I am taking your question seriously.
I think you read Bruce wrong. He has no hatred, except for the abuses that take place in Evangelical churches. Bruce does not hate God, nor does he hate Christianity. Let’s address the “god” thing first: Bruce does not believe in god – any god. It’s pretty hard to hate something you don’t believe exists. Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, leprechauns, gods – they all fall into the same category. They are mythical beings and Bruce neither hates nor likes, because they don’t exist.
Now to Christianity: As you probably know, Bruce was a part of Christianity for more than 50 years. When he left Christianity, and subsequently deconverted, he didn’t leave in a rage of anger, but it was probably more like with a broken heart. He searched over 100 churches looking for one that followed the tenets of Jesus. Instead he found churches that were more wrapped up in themselves and who only paid lip service to Jesus and Christianity.
Now, as to what Bruce hates: he hates the sexual and psychological (and sometimes physical) abuses that take place in IFB churches – he was a pastor of various IFB churches for 25 years, so this is where his heart was and where he has the most knowledge. He also hates abuses in other churches, but focuses his writings on IFB churches because they are the ones he knows best. He hates the pastors that engage in abusive conduct. This is why he write his Black Collar Crime series, because he believes it is important that everyone knows and understands that pastors are not “Men of God,” and are not above everyone else, nor are they above the law, but that they often engage in conduct that makes them the lowest of the low.
He also hates the “under the blood” philosophy, which allows malefactors to escape responsibility for their wrongdoings by sweeping it all under the rug, claiming that whatever they did before they were saved doesn’t matter. Indeed, they often keep on engaging in egregious conduct after they were saved, believing that all they have to do is get saved again and all is forgiven.
You asked, “If we are all going back to the dirt and there is nothing after then why bother?” Bruce takes a humanist approach to life. Among other things, he works every day to be kind to others. And when he fails, he is quick to own his failure and to apologize to the person to whom he was unkind. Indeed, here is advice that Bruce gives to readers on his About page:
You have one life. There is no heaven or hell. There is no afterlife. You have one life, it’s yours, and what you do with it is what matters most. Love and forgive those who matter to you and ignore those who add nothing to your life. Life is too short to spend time trying to make nice with those who will never make nice with you. Determine who are the people in your life that matter and give your time and devotion to them. Live each and every day to its fullest. You never know when death might come calling. Don’t waste time trying to be a jack of all trades, master of none. Find one or two things you like to do and do them well. Too many people spend way too much time doing things they will never be good at.
Here’s the conclusion of the matter. It’s your life and you best get to living it. Someday, sooner than you think, it will be over. Don’t let your dying days be ones of regret over what might have been.
Carolyn
She knoweth me well. Carolyn is known in our home as my “other wife.” 🙂
I liked that reply by Caroline. The way that she describes you is pretty much the way that I see you, based on reading your blog posts over the last 2-3 years.
Wesley apparently sees you differently. But I think that difference is about him rather than about you.
Thank you, Bruce. Thank you, Caroline. I noticed that Wesley wanted to be able to assume anything he liked about you, and tell you what he thought, but you, Bruce, aren’t allowed to do so. Your venting is forbidden by Wesley. Wonder why Wesley thinks we GIVE A FUCK about what he wants? We don’t, Wesley.
PS–I love Wil Wheaton but this is a good time to say, “Shut UP, Wesley!”
PPS–dammit, my brains are broken. I threw my lower back and left hip out, and finally have been to chiropractor and massage therapist. But I’m having to run my TENS unit on the area, as the muscles have all decided they were highly insulted. So I meant to say, Bruce, I’m so sorry about your pain. Very sorry. I know with my family I would gladly take any of their pain if I could. I’m glad you were able to make it. I realize the pharmaceutical companies were happy to addict people to opiates, but if they’d hurry up and invent something that would eradicate pain with addiction…it would be priceless. Oh, who am I kidding? They would charge $1000 a pill. Or $10,000. Anyway, Bruce, I know you have an indomitable spirit and you are an inspiration to me.
I, too, was happy to see Carolyn’s response. She’s worked with him in person and confirmed the impressions we have of him.
Wesley did so much gaslighting in his email that the UN is sanctioning him for violating the Paris climate agreements.
Assumptions? Then you assume I’m a follower of the whatever and ct Townsend? No and no. I dont follow either. I just asked a serious question I always wondered about and based off the only assumption (yours), you replied. That’s called hipocracy
Wesley,
You do know, don’t you, that I know what brought you to this site and what you read while you were here? (I can provide you the server logs.) Are you saying you are not an Evangelical? Are you saying you don’t follow C.T. Townsend? Are you saying you are not from North Carolina — the home state of every person who has emailed me/commented about my Townsend posts? It’s possible I’m wrong — I’ve been wrong once before 😂— but after 14 years and thousands of interactions with Evangelicals, I can spot an Evangelical from ten miles away. If you want to say you are not an Evangelical, not a Bible believer, I’ll gladly apologize. If not, how about you respond to my answer to your question.
Your “question” was couched in numerous passive-aggressive assumptions about me. You seem to think I should have ignored that shit and just answered your question. How about you just asking the question without the other stuff? Why piss all over my me before asking your question?
Did I answer your question? Why not respond to my answer or Carolyn’s, for that matter?
By the way, the word is hypocrisy.
Thanks for commenting.
Bruce
Wesley Wesley, there is a difference between assumptions, assertions and hypothesis. Strictly speaking an assumption is based on no facts whatsoever, like your assumption that Bruce hates God, that his reply is a ‘rant’. Not only is this an assumption akin to ignorance, but it’s rude, and yet whilst you are rude you have the gaul to demand a ‘serious reply’ – and despite your assumptions and rudeness, you still got a serious reply.
Bruce’s assertion (assumption only in the colloquial sense, which is fine, but it is you who insists on splitting hairs) is based on evidence. Evidence of what? IP address, server logs, your location and also based on experience.
In a court of law, you could argue everything is an ‘assumption’. A DNA match where the chances of it being wrong is a million to one? OK an assertion you were the criminal. You see assumptions strictly speaking, based on evidence, are more like assertions where a case is built to prove something beyond reasonable doubt.
So of course there is some doubt that you are a C T Townsend acolyte, so Bruce is willing to give you reasonable doubt, but it’s still reasonable probability you are, because of the EVIDENCE.
Now it’s my experience from being a Christian that you are typical of the Christians I know, uneducated and rude (by the way there is nothing wrong with being uneducated in terms of scholarly qualifications, but there’s something wrong when you dishonestly present what Bruce has said to be the same as what you have done. Not everyone can articulate it in the way I have done, but most people can ‘sense’ when someone isn’t being straight with them, which to me is how you’re coming across).
So my question to you is, why do I come across so many evangelicals who do not appear genuine and honest with their words and intentions?
In my earlier blogging days, I would spend days interacting with people who hid their true motives and intentions. After numerous comments, I would finally pin them down and force them to admit they were Evangelical Christians. Frustrating . . . Why hide who and what you are?
These days, my Evangie-senses are much sharper. Rarely do I miss with my initial assessments. Sometimes, but not often.
Yes. Experience teaches a lot, and it seems evangelical Christians follow the same type of patterns.
If I may say, it seems to me that fundamentalism/evangelicalism is reactionary/dishonest to its core. Why would I say this? Because its modern roots are based on a reaction against science, against evidence. It’s essentially rooted in a denial of progress, and to deny things we as society learn is dishonest.
Paul was an advocate of faith, but he also turned to evidence. What evidence did he use? The world, ‘For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,…’ Romans 1:20.
The problem now is that we know more about the world, we know it’s not flat, it’s not 6000 years old, people existed before Adam and Eve, so following Paul’s evidence based reasoning of using the world based on what we know now no longer holds water.
It’s why I sometimes wonder, if the Apostle Paul was born today, given what we now know, would he still believe? I think it’s likely he wouldn’t.
Well, given the types of things evangelicals have to deny now rather than accept, perhaps it should not be entirely unexpected that their modus operandus is to be typically disingenuous with their intents and in their interactions.
Wes, you ask the same ignorant questions like so many Christians. You don’t think outside of your Christ bubble. Have you ever tried to read any counter apologetics? It seems no. so now you have Bruce and Carolyn who have brilliantly explained to you how you are utterly wrong with your false assumptions.
Now it remains to be seen if you actually pay attention and learn anything at all.
A link to your article popped up, I read earnestly, and asked a question in a manner that I thought would provoke an earnest reply. It was something I’ve honestly wondered a long long time. I guess I asked the wrong person. You assumed wrongly of me and attacked me. I never once attacked your character but you or your editor felt inclined to do so towards me. Childish if you ask me. The only assumption I made was that you were intelligent and capable of straight forward dialogue without the negative rhetoric. I guess I assumed wrongly. AND THE SEARCH GOES ON, THANKS FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! I’m only following the Truth!
Thank you for proving my point, Wesley.
I only wanted to know why atheist APPEAR to have such a hatred driven agenda towards christianity, that’s all. It was merely an observation. You put all your opinions on the internet for people to view and so I did. I didnt portrait you as anything, you come off that way to me as do other zealous atheist. I thought it convenient to ask you because you seem so bold and not afraid. I was honestly curious and asked you the “serious” questions. You assumed me wrongly because you dont know anything about me. What would North Carolina have to do with anything? Am I not permitted to seek for answers without being shoved into a box and labeled by some group? Isn’t that part of what you preach against? Go ahead and continue what you’re doing but whatever is clouding your vision whether it be hate, anger, being from Ohio (joke) dont be so quick to judge me. As I said I dont follow CT I was just browsing the web. Yes I have read the bible btw and I “assume” you have also. I have been hurt by the “church” and now am being attacked from the other side of the fence. Go figure! Save your apologies. Humanist??? Ok good luck with that
Imagine how different this conversation might have went had you not made the assumptions you did about me?
Despite my response to you, you continue to smear my character. Instead of being butt hurt, how about interacting with my response (and Carolyn’s) to your question. If not, it’s time for you to move on.
Wesley,
I’m not going to argue with you.
You made all sorts of assumptions about me. Did you not portray me as angry and hateful? Did you not say I have have “an overwhelming desire to disprove, attack, undermine God, Christianity, etc”? Or did some other person named Wesley Cody say these things?
My editor is an awesome person. I pay her $100,000 a year to edit my writing. 😂 Just kidding. Carolyn edits my work without pay. Talk about a heathen saint. I thought her response to you honest, polite, and thoughtful. If you think her response was a personal “attack,” I don’t know what to tell you.It wasn’t. Oh, she could burn the paint off a wall if she chose to do so. 😂Carolyn responds to many of the emails I receive due to my declining health. Unless the person is a spammer or a Bible thumper, she typically gives polite, thoughtful responses.
Bruce
No, Wesley — You didn’t ask the wrong person; you asked the wrong questions. Questions that non-believers have answered literally thousands of times. Questions that imply that we are hateful, immoral or without a purpose in our lives. Questions that betray a desire to insult rather than a desire to listen. Questions that demand that we answer in a way that won’t hurt your sensitive ears.
May you know the truth, for it shall set you free — from your beliefs.
Wesley, you read earnestly? Because your comments and questions were passive-aggressive, and while you felt free to say what you said, you didn’t want Bruce to vent. Sounds like you are a hypocrite because you get to speak however you wish, while telling others not to vent (which means, WE have to censor ourselves). Pretty darn one-sided.
As do you. I speak the way I speak trying not provoke but to engage without aggression. Which side of the conversation has aggressive language? Honestly? I’m not being rude but I wasnt talking to you anyway and I’ll make another assumption that Bruce doesnt need your defences. You guys really know how to be humanist. Heres another question, now that you guys have me angry as well. So what? You guys get off at ripping into evangelicals or whatever you choose to call them and if someone comes with an honest question trying not to speak in a manner that would anger, you just rip into them regardless like wild animals? Assuming anyone who suggests anything in question form must be your mortal enemy right? Whatever… you guys are kind of jerks. There you go I hope you and bruce are happy and now that I feel full of hate and anger I know my observation was correct after interacting with you. If there is a hell I’ll see you both there. Theres nothing to the lot of ya
This response is on Bruce’s blog, open to everyone to see. You don’t get to tell Bruce what to say or how to vent, nor do you get to tell me well, anything. And if you get to show up on this blog and ask questions and make comments, so do we. You are a hypocrite if you think anyone here is going to do what you want. Ask an honest question, make zero assumptions, and then Bruce and/or whoever will engage on that level. You don’t get to TELL US WHAT TO SAY AND HOW TO SAY IT. Quit ordering strangers around, period. I see no honest questions yet on your part.
Also: trying to scare us with hell doesn’t work. We don’t believe it exists and there is zero evidence that we base our beliefs on. You realize we aren’t all atheists, right? I’m not and pray, but the God I pray to would never burn flawed humans for eternity. Others here are agnostic, non-fundie Christian, and other non-Christians. But I 100% guarantee that if you try to scare us with hell, it doesn’t work. There is a hell but it is the one that exists on earth, created by people. And me speaking “rudely” to you on a blog isn’t evil, you just don’t like it.
By the way, we aren’t the ones “making” you angry. You can listen to what we say and try to honestly engage without orders, but you choose to tell us what to do and now blame us for your anger? Please, no.
Angry, Wesley?
Good.
Now you might actually have an idea of how we feel when believers meddle with civil society, trying to force religion-based ideas into health care, education and politics.
” He searched over 100 churches looking for one that followed the tenets of Jesus. Instead he found churches that were more wrapped up in themselves and who only paid lip service to Jesus and Christianity.”
If this is true, then you committed the same error that Peter did when he walked on water. You took your eyes off Jesus just like he did. You are not supposed to follow other humans. Jesus said ‘Follow me.’ You should have stayed with Jesus and set the example instead of looking at other human beings.
Christians will never be perfect
David, I didn’t take my eyes off of Jesus. Please stop being such a judgmental prick. If you’ve come to this conclusion, you do not understand my story at all.
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So, Doc, are you going to take up my challenge or are you going to continue using your big building for your country club meetings instead of serving your homeless community.
You are all talk, no action. You have a lot of time to keep chasing Bruce but none to help those in need.
So can you serve those who need a home or will you just keep hiding behind your pulpit?
I triple dog dare you to open your church to house, feed, and clothe the homeless. Are you brave enough to stand in that pulpit and tell your country club church that it’s time to move from comfy, judge christianity to active service of others?
🙂 Something about the 9th commandment and bearing false witness 🙂 I wonder why Christians have to come here to represent themselves as Christians in such an un-Christian light… Really when it comes to it I don’t think they care about what they claim to believe.
‘Christians will never be perfect’ – what a cop out, Theo, specially when your Lord and Savior says you must be perfect (Matt 5.48). Have you got it wrong, or did he?
Let’s check the bible to see shall we?
‘Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.’ Titus 2:14. Nope, Christians are supposed to be obsessed with good works.
What to make of those who are not, those who say one thing and mean another?
‘Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?…. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.’ Matt 7:16,20
Nope, Jesus said we should know them by their works.
In my experience evangelical Christianity is a type of Christianity which is mainly concerned with beliefs only but not fruits. Seems like on here that experience keeps getting further supported.
In my experience, the supposed relationship between faith and works can be very confusing indeed.
If someone is a professing Christian but does not act in a worthy manner: “Not/never a true Christian” in reference to the verses about bearing fruits.
But if someone who is not (Evangelical) Christian (eg Mormons, Muslims) acts in a worthy manner: “It’s just a surface phenomenon, don’t be deceived by it.
The bible would teach that you change after being saved because the Spirit inside you works on you, this is why people say when they don’t see fruits may ask.. were you really saved? Because they believe the Spirit works inside you. Some groups such as Wesleyian Holyness movement teach a process of sanctification where eventually you don’t sin at all (or almost).
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and again we see the Christian making ignorant claims, David. Every Christian wants to claim that their version is the only version that is “really” from Jesus. alas, no evidence for this at all. So, all there is are humans to follow, ignorant arrogant humans who make things up in their own image.
Christians are certainly never perfect. No human is. But Christians love to claim that they are perfect through their puppet Jesus Christ.
That no Christian can do what the bible promises them to be able to do (Mark 16, John 14, and James 5) it seems you are all frauds.
Can’t you try for just ONE MOMENT to empathize with a non-Christian person? Try to see someone else’s point of view? It’s not impossible. I realize you think we’re all doomed and you need to beat us over the head with Jesus. But guess what? If you came here and asked sincere questions instead of preaching, people would be more willing to have conversations. Right now, you’re just preaching and not to the choir.
Hey Theo, have you opened your church to the homeless yet, like I suggested before, or is it still more important to keep holding Sunday service? Why not put your faith into action instead of proselytizing in front of like minded Christian country club members?
I challenge you to prove your service to god by setting aside those things that glorify you and your group, and open your church to give the homeless a roof to sleep under.. I challenge you to rally your clique members to feed and clothe the homeless, which would surely glorify your god. I challenge you to help them get a chance to improve their lives that includes helping and not witnessing.
I know you won’t. I know your clique would not approve. I know you and your clique are all talk, all polish, all display, but no real substance. It’s much easier to tell others how to live than to take real action to help others.
I read a story once about whitewashed tombs. Maybe that applies here?
So what will you do Theo, when will you take the challenge??
Sage,
I remember attending a church service, I was late (2 or 3 minutes), the doors were locked. Finally a deacon opened them and he told me he locks them incase thieves steal anything at the entrance. Well I asked him, does that not mean it’s not fit for purpose? Why not sell anything worth stealing, give that money to the poor, and then the doors can be open for everyone. He did not have an answer.
so pretty much this Christian asks the same idiotic questions that any ignorant christian asks. Pity they don’t read counter apologetics and save us this tedium.
Bruce, enjoy the baseball game! I hope it’s a great day!
If anyone takes the time to read the rules for commenting or contacting Bruce, it won’t be a surprise when their missives become part of a post. Drive-bys aren’t part of the equation. And if someone is really interested I what Bruce thinks, they should search his posts – he’s covered hundreds of topics by now. Unless it’s a current event, he’s probably covered it already.
All right, Wesley. Despite the aggressions coded into your choice of phrases, I’m going to assume that you were actually asking in good faith. And honestly, I’m not going to try to answer for Bruce — he and Carolyn have already given you perfectly good answers, albeit while criticizing your approach with your question.
So, why do unbelievers continue to talk about Christianity after they conclude that its central claims aren’t true? Because Christianity is still a big influence on society; it’s hard for us to live and let live when the “other side” isn’t willing to do the same. And if you think that Christians are willing to live and let live, then may I cordially suggest that you need to get out more? I don’t believe that’s been the experience of anyone here.
If you’re genuinely interested in understanding why unbelievers don’t believe and why trying to convert ex-Christians is a monumentally bad idea, I did a series of blog posts on the topic a decade ago. You might find them helpful, since I did talk about some of the ways that deconversion is reflected in behavior. (Actually, start here — apparently I put in links so you could read them in sequence.)
Anyway, read them or don’t. But as much or as little sense as the answer may make to you, Bruce and Carolyn did answer your question.
Thank you, finally. Atleast one of you is a humanist. I appreciate it. Honestly I’m too angry to right now to search out much of anything at the moment. I speak how I speak. Not everyone is a literary giant or a psychologist you?
I meant appreciate you at the end. I will go check out your blog. Thanks again!
this seems nothing more than Wes trying to divide and conquer. I’m wondering just how angry he’ll be when he reads Michael’s posts since they don’t coddle the Christian either.
Nor does anyone have to be, but you have been arrogant and rude, and who needs to be this?
Wesley, you could be a lot more successful in your conversation if it was less passive aggressive. Even this response is filled with that same tone. I personally have an aggressive approach, which I have to control and unleash where appropriate. Maybe a bit more self awareness is helpful here.
Now, to your question. Why do I personally argue against fundamental Christianity? Because this religious belief inflicts pain, mental distress, and life long trauma on people by indoctrinating them from childhood, or preying on people in weak moments, or outright attacking them through the church, or through political control.
As a non-binary person I was made to feel my very existence was evil, deplorable, and disgusting. This lead many years of pointless struggle. It took a long time to recover from the mental trauma and pain. Even today there are preachers calling for people like me to be killed or otherwise corrected. The church still tries to create laws, through their god fearing legislators, to force me out of public view. At every turn the church stands against freedoms that would make others equal.
You say we should live and let live, but the church has no desire to do so.I would gladly leave the church alone if they would stay in their lane. But their desire to regulate everyone else is very clear.
So I will alway speak loudly against the church until they stop regulating everyone and learn to let others live as they desire.
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Wesley Cody, you asked why all the anger expressed towards Evangelical Christianity, at one point. One reason for this is the havoc such people often wreak. On this blog, you don’t just find atheists, but non- churchgoers, believers who are curious, humanists,etc. As Bruce has mentioned before, there’s a core group of Evangelicals who want America remade according to th Taliban or ISIS, the Fundie version. Religion should be a private matter, not legislated and imposed on others like Ben Carson’s proposed mandatory tithe for the nation, for example.
Well wesley, Intentionally or unintentionally, you did make assumptions about bruce, starting your question with “not with a rant reflecting your anger…..” means you are already preconceived that bruce rants and is angry, which is untrue so that was your first mistake. Secondly, I would like to address this statement “If you hate God…” This statement passes an idea that God (of course your version) exists and is a fact known to all. It proposes a notion that everyone knows for a fact that this your God exists but “willingly chooses to hate him” and this is false also. Fact is, there is no hate in me and most of us. I’m agonistic and I do believe in a creator. If there were to be any form of hate in me, it would be for religion of every kind because of the harm it has done and keeps doing to many, not even in the terms of physical abuse, sexual abuse, psycological trauma etc that it causes many but majorly on the division and competition it has brought on the world. It has propagated hate more than it can ever propagate love, christians will never coexist with muslims without having the urge to persuade them off their belief and vice versa. I hate that religion doesn’t encourage diversity, which is the beauty of life, i for one would never want a world where everyone is christian and share same everything, stupid. But hey, to answer your question, if christians can have blogs to propagate their beliefs, why can’t anyone? Difference is, unlike christians that use atheists as constant examples without getting to know them first, basing their judgment on what their book says, bruce writes what he knows and does research before writing anything. Funny thing though is how people like you and theo keep thinking that people leave Christianity because of they were hurt by christians, this is true for some, false for many. I like many others left cause we didn’t find any basis or evidence to base my former beliefs on other than feelings and my own self opinion and childhood teachings, people like me have spent hours researching and asking questions evwn with the intention of returning to our easily comforting beliefs but all seemed to drive us away further. Bruce definitely is not attacking Christianity, like he says, he is merely sharing his story.
Victor, your comment is so eloquent, succinct and sums up my thoughts completely as to why, after decades of ‘following jesus’ and working my socks off 24/7 for him…I realised with mounting horror too, that it was all a fiction. To the arrogant Wesley and all his ilk, I just want to add this. Wesley, your experience does not negate the very different experiences that others have, our conclusions about life, its purpose, about a bronze age book and a possibly mythical man called jesus, are no less valid than yours. I do hope you can open your closed mind some day and come out of your darkness into the sunshine – it’s really great out here. The truth has truly set us free. Our chains truly fell off and we’d love for you to experience this too.
So much fodder in this thread and so little time to feed! I am covering for a technician on holiday and have to go out the door. Just wanted to commend you here for so many comments dealing with a person who is not so very different than many of us were at a point in our lives. As Sage states clearly in comments not far up from this entry, there are important reasons to speak honestly and openly against fundamentalist beliefs commonly practiced across the continent and beyond. This flavor of faith-living is toxic and designed to harm self and others. I believe Wesley has felt the virus and has been hurt by at least one church. Like some of us, me being one, he is inventing his own true belief so that it is palatable to him. Perhaps that will work for him for a time but harm is harm is harm, no matter the cloak you you put it in…
Thank-you, bloggers, for offering him such generous insights and feelings.
You’re welcome, Brian. Listening to NPR this morning, hearing about 1,000 Afghan soldiers fled across Tajikistan’s border ahead of a steady advance by Taliban forces. Without airstrikes now, they’re on the move. So sad, what this will mean. That country could be a great place to live, with a secular democratic government. No government should be religious.
Fundamentalist Religion is a tool forged in the human furnace of ignorance and fear. Harmed humans reach into fantasy to cope with what feels untenable, unbearable. It is an avoidance technique, a human re-action response to pain. Humanism, on the other hand, seeks connection, seeks person to person give and take, listening and sharing… Humanisn relies on what we know we have, our human experience and history, our ‘me’, our ‘us’. Humanism does not look to fantasy saviours or anti-human immortality. It looks to more honestly ‘feed the poor’, to connect, to share in the give and take of being. Fundamentalist religion is based in harm: You are born failed, fallen etc. Wesley has not quite awakened to know that he is okay as he is, a biped. He did not commit some eternal crime and have to pay. He only has to make a short, significant step to understand that Bruce Almighty is not his adversary but a way to see the world beyond Wesley’s ‘personal address’ today….
Again, I have to say thank-you and this time to Bruce, thank-you sir, for sharing your real life, for being a man, a human and seeking as life goes on…. What riches you have to share among those of us who have lived the IFB!
Wesley, keep searching, man, keep going…