While my deconversion from Christianity was a gradual process, I mark the last Sunday in November 2008, as the day when I finally admitted to myself and my wife Polly that I no longer was a Christian. On that day, Polly and I, along with our three youngest children, ages 19, 17, and 15, walked out of the doors of the Ney United Methodist Church never to return. Several months later, I sent a public letter to several hundred family members, friends, and former church members. Titled, Dear Family, Friends, and Former Parishioners, this painfully raw letter sets forth some of the reasons why I deconverted. While I still left the door open for some sort of God belief — say a deistic deity — it was clear, at least to me at the time, that I was an agnostic. After several months of having to repeatedly explain the term “agnostic,” and gaining a better understanding of atheism in general, I decided to jettison the agnostic label and self-identify as “atheist.”
I quickly learned that the label “atheist” carries with it all sorts of meanings and implications. Many Evangelicals, for example, think I am a “hardcore” atheist, whereas some atheists doubt whether I am an atheist at all. I have found that some atheists can be every bit as Fundamentalist as Evangelical Christians. If I am not their kind of atheist, I am no atheist at all. Years ago, I tangled with the promoters of Atheism+. While I am, politically, a liberal/progressive/socialist, because I refused to buy into or accept all the social justice baggage attached to Atheism+, my atheism was called into question. I lost numerous readers as a result of my refusal to bow to the Atheism+ god. I also faced reader defections from the other side of the atheist spectrum: libertarian (often Trump-supporting) atheists. These readers loved my atheism but hated my politics.
Atheism, by definition, is the lack of belief in the existence of deities. Some atheists are anti-theists; a philosophical position that says all theism should be opposed. Christopher Hitchens was an anti-theist:
I’m not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful.
Other atheists are misotheists; people who actively hate one or more deities. While I can, at times — depending on the deity and religion in question — be an anti-theist or misotheist, I best describe myself as an agnostic atheist.
Agnostic atheism is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity, and are agnostic because they claim that the existence of a demiurgic entity or entities is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact.
Practically speaking, I don’t believe in the existence of deities, but I cannot know for certain whether some sort of deity may one day make itself known to us. Likely? No. Probable? No. Possible? Yes. I can say with great certainty that the God of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity does not exist. He is a mythical being created by humans centuries ago to explain their world and existence. I can say the same thing about the rest of the deities presently (or in the past) worshipped by humans. I see no sufficient evidence for their existence; thus I live my day-to-day life as an atheist.
While I have many other beliefs, none of them is contingent on atheism. I am a humanist, but humanism does not require atheism. The same can be said for my leftist political views. I have religious friends who are also humanists and socialists. I eat dinner with them once a month. We have friendly, spirited discussions, debates, and arguments about all sorts things, including religion and politics, and then we eat good food and drink beer. Granted, none of these men is an Evangelical. All of us share the same disgust and contempt for what Evangelicals (generally speaking) are doing to our country. Do we “hate” Evangelicals? Of course not. We hate their beliefs and behaviors, seeing and knowing firsthand the harm caused by their theology and politics. While I am the resident atheist, my friends and I share many commonalities and that’s why we enjoy one another’s company.
Yes, I am an atheist — proudly so — but I am much more than just someone who doesn’t believe in the existence of God. If you want to know what I believe about some other issue, ask.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Yesterday, I received the following email from a man named Fain Grogg. My editor, Carolyn, sent Grogg a curt reply earlier today — thank you — but I thought I would respond to several allegations and assertions Grogg makes in his email. All spelling and grammar are found in the original.
Bruce, Yes I have read article of Kenny Bishop, I had heard around 1999 that he made an unwanted advance only a female (from the Bishops music business office). I knew that at that time- he continued preaching.
Grogg came to this site looking for information (dirt) about Kenny Bishop — a former Fundamentalist Southern Gospel singer who is now a gay man and the pastor of a United Church of Christ congregation. If you are not familiar with Kenny’s story, please read Southern Gospel Singer Kenny Bishop is Now a Gay United Church of Christ Pastor. I have been acquainted with Kenny for thirty years. My wife, Polly, and I have heard The Bishops in concert several times, and we owned most of their CDs back in our Christian days. Even today, I will listen to The Bishops from time to time.
I was pleasantly surprised when I learned that Kenny is gay and is now the pastor of a mainline congregation in Louisville, Kentucky. I can only imagine the personal pain Kenny has experienced going from a hardcore Fundamentalist to a progressive, inclusive Christian.
I am aware of the rumor mentioned by Grogg. I don’t know exactly what happened. I do know that Kenny abruptly left his family’s singing group, later divorcing his wife of fifteen years, Debra Hardy. In 2018, Kenny married Mason Miller.
My question is at one time you must have given your heart and life to God & felt the calling to preach for 25 years.
Yes, at the age of fifteen, I was saved/born again at a revival meeting at Trinity Baptist Church in Findlay, Ohio. Two weeks later, I stood before the church and told them that I believed God was calling me to preach. Not long after, I preached my first sermon. At the age of nineteen, I enrolled for classes at Midwestern Baptist College, an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) institution in Pontiac, Michigan. While there, I met and later married a beautiful dark-haired preacher’s daughter. In 1979, Polly and I left Midwestern, moving to Bryan, Ohio. Two months later, I started working for Montpelier Baptist Church. All told, I spent twenty-five years in the ministry, pastoring churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Over the course of my thirty-three-year preaching career, I preached 4,000 sermons. While I certainly wasn’t perfect and did things I certainly regret, the bend of my life was toward godliness and holiness. I was, in every way, a Christian.
What happened to cause you to walk away from God’s calling on your life or did you just decide that being a minister was an easy paycheck. Then to say 2 years later you left Christianity completely. There must have been something drastic happen.
Had Grogg bothered to read the posts on the WHY? page, he would have found ALL the answers to his questions.
Grogg, as many who have come before him, can’t make the square peg of my life story fit into the round hole of his rigid Evangelical Christianity. Instead of considering that HE might the one who has a problem, Grogg goes looking for ulterior motives for my deconversion.
First, without ANY knowledge about the arc of my life, Grogg suggests that I stayed in the ministry because it was an easy paycheck. Is he suggesting that I never was a Christian or that the ministry is a place to make easy money? He doesn’t say, so I find it difficult to understand exactly what he is saying here.
Carolyn schooled Grogg on “all” the money I didn’t make as a pastor, often living in poverty or working long hours at secular jobs so the churches I pastored could have a full-time pastor. Not one of the seven churches I pastored over the years paid me a living wage. None of these churches provided me with health insurance, retirement, or other fringe benefits. I pastored churches because I loved God, desired to win souls for Christ, and wanted to help people grow and mature in their faith. I worked secular jobs while pastoring. I ALWAYS made more money outside of the church.
Grogg suggests that something “drastic” had to happen for me to walk away from Christianity. I am sure he thinks there is some sort of nefarious reason/secret for my deconversion, but as I spell out on the WHY? page, I deconverted because the central claims of Christianity no longer made sense to me. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.) Using reason, skepticism, and common sense, I concluded that the beliefs at the core of Christianity: the inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible, the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, and his miracles were not true. Not believing these things, I could no longer call myself a Christian. Was my deconversion “drastic”? Yes, but it was the right conclusion after I had carefully re-examined the teachings of the Bible.
You mentioned for people not to send you words from Bible. The Great Commission that you once believed is why we reach out and pray for you
If you are an Evangelical Christian, please read Dear Evangelical before sending me an email. If you have a pathological need to evangelize, spread the love of Jesus, or put a good word in for the man, the myth, the legend named Jesus, please don’t. The same goes for telling me your church/pastor/Jesus is awesome. I am also not interested in reading sermonettes, testimonials, Bible verses, or your deconstruction/psychological evaluation of my life. By all means, if you feel the need to set me straight, start your own blog.
Grogg thinks ignoring my request is justified because the Bible says that Christians are to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every person. Never mind the fact that I am quite familiar with the Christian gospel. What could any of these zealots possibly say to me that I don’t already know? No, the real issue here is not my salvation; it is Evangelicals reinforcing their own beliefs; quelling questions and doubts they might have about their own salvation and beliefs. I get it. My story troubles them. Instead of wrestling with their own doubts and questions, they try to discredit and marginalize me instead.
Imagined if I worshipped DooDoo, as found in an ancient religious text from the first century. Imagine if I came to your house and pissed and shit on your front porch. Would that upset you? I suspect it would. When confronted by you, I replied “Thus saith DooDoo in First Bowel Movement 28:19,20: When thou comest upon a Christian home, thou shalt piss and shit on their front porch, reminding them that I am DooDoo, the one true God, he who moves and lives in all human beings. Would anyone be okay with me doing this? Yet, that is exactly what Grogg and his fellow Evangelicals think they have a right to do. Grogg believes he has no obligation to respect my wishes. And he’s right. He can do what he wants. However, he shouldn’t feign outrage and surprise when I call him out on his boorish behavior.
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
A year ago, an Evangelical man using a fake name, Victor [Viktor] Justice, left two comments on this site. One, a vile comment about the death of my dear friend Steve Gupton (please see The Suddenness of Death) was immediately deleted. I did, however, approve the following comment. All spelling and grammar errors, of which there are many, belong to Justice.
Congratulations Little Bruce:
Boy, you’ve really become the embodiment of a woke old fool. I honestly feel shame and pain for what you have done to your children. It’s quite obvious that Polly was never saved, like yourself. This is evidenced by how quickly she turned into a typical, slobbish, western, bimbo. You could’ve joined the Harry Krishnas, and old, dumb, Polly woulda been right behind ya…what a dull, addled brained, dunce you married.
Your children hate your guts. You sound like half a fag, bellyaching night and day about how the whole world has been so cruel to Little Bruce.
The Judgement is closing in on you, son. Your body is falling apart fast and your debt is completely unplayable outside of the Cross of The Lord Jesus Christ Almighty!
Most sincerely,
A worm who Christ died for.
I immediately put Justice on the banned list, making him ineligible to comment. No one attacks my wife, children, grandchildren, or friends and gets by with it. As is my custom, I clear the banned list once a year. And sure as the sun comes up in the morning, Justice left another comment:
Bruce,
I’m not someone who just happened upon your blog. I’ve been reading it for a few years and I typically read for hours at a time.
We have a lot in common. OCPD/OCD, major back issues (crushed disk, advanced DDD, spinal stenosis), neck and head pain, with a extremely painful nerve disorders, etc, etc.
Where we differ from one another is my saving faith in the LORD Jesus Christ Almighty. What I see from you is someone that is the quintessential example of the former fake believer who’s consumed by bitterness, jealousy, and selfishness.
You were never saved. Jesus Christ Almighty is truly your only hope and your running out of time!
Most sincerely,
I banned Justice once again. He then left the following comment (which I deleted):
Little Bruce,
Well, there’s no fool — like an old fool. One thing that I can tell you is that you would never speak to me with anything but respect and reverence in person. You should only call me “Mr. Justice” from now on!
Anyway, getting back to what I was saying, before you “blocked and banned” me for what must be the fifth or sixth time. I HAVE read about 50% of what you have written on this blog over the years. I have several computers, computer locations, email addresses, and the aforementioned VPN. Nice try though…
I appreciated you republishing one of my prior letters to you. For the record, I meant every. Single. WORD. contained in it. Also, when you publish a blog on the World Wide Web, anyone has the ABSOLUTE right to join in on reading the content, making comments, and so forth. As long as they are aren’t doing anything illegal, making threats of violence, or using profanity (yes, you read that right), they have the right to full enjoyment of “your” website.
I rarely bring a man’s wife and family into these types of discussions, but I made an exception with Polly, because of how easily she dumped her “faith”, the faith of her fathers…what a jezebel spirit that lurks within her unregenerate soul.
You are truly one of the lowest, most selfish, Christ hating bigoted pieces of human garbage on the face of the earth! You preached over 4,000 sermons that you didn’t believe, while being paid, and thence went about ripping the heart out of those who you were sworn to minister to and love. You are slightly less abominable than Judas the Son of Perdition. AND NOW…you see yourself as the VICTIM!…Burn in Hell, Jack!
I’m angry about what you have said and done to my LORD and Savior — Jesus Christ Almighty! But, He is so loving that you could still possibly be forgiven and Saved! Hopefully, for your sake, Almighty GOD hasn’t completely turned you over to a reprobate mind. GOD’s grace, love, majesty, and mercy is truly a miracle! Praise His scared, holy, wonderful, and great Name! Glory to His righteous Name!
Most sincerely,
After Justice left this comment, I blocked him at the server level. Of course, this only works if he uses one of the IP addresses I have blocked. As expected, using a VPN, Justice evaded this block and sent me the following email:
I just read your last couple of posts (even though I’m supposed to be banned & blocked). You are really losing your stuff, son. I’ll admit that I find your writing style to be pretty good, albeit the content of what you write is particularly vile. That’s what I’m getting at, you are now producing retrograde, rehashed junk. You honestly have no more story to tell.
Obviously you can’t just stop writing this blog, because it’s your source of hustling money outta those who are suckers for your sob stories. Just know that Victor Justice knows exactly how you’re conning, what I call, the deviant vulnerable.
I watched your clown show, supposedly speaking to the “humanist society.” Being such a “professional photographer” didn’t it dawn on you that it looked like you were talking to yourself in your dingy basement while Polly recorded. You look like a quintessential weakling with your filthy beard, jeans, and one of your grandmother’s old hats from her family’s civil war chest in the attic.
Yeah, being an atheist surely is a bundle of joy. Your nothing but a goofball clown with 10 or so sycophants lapping up your vomit. Good luck to your psychotherapist, who probably laughs you to scorn, the minute you waddle out the door. Good grief!
As you can see, Justice’s goal is to inflict psychological harm. Much like Dr. David Tee, Revival Fires, and other Evangelical zealots, Justice hopes his words will cause harm. He’s not interested in truth or evangelizing me. He’s a playground bully who spends his days verbally molesting and assaulting me, safely ensconced in his mommy’s basement without fear of responsibility and accountability.
It would be easy to dismiss Justice as someone who is mentally ill — and maybe he is. However, I am not willing to give him a pass. It is important for readers to see the connection between Justice’s Fundamentalist beliefs and practices and his behavior. (Justice’s use of certain words suggests he is a Calvinist.) Does anyone believe that Justice’s words are remotely Christian? I know I don’t. Had Justice been a member of one of the churches I pastored, and I learned he was viciously harassing people online, we would have excommunicated him. Such behavior is morally wrong regardless of religious affiliation. Yet, I suspect Justice is a member in good standing at an Evangelical church where he lives. His comments and emails reveal that Justice is a Bible believer. For all I know, he could be a preacher. Over the years, I have had Evangelical preachers take a similar approach. Hiding behind pseudonyms, these so-called men of God hurled all sorts of vile invectives my way. In two instances, I was eventually able to figure out who they were. I turned their comments into a post, and put their real name on the post. Now, that’s justice. 🙂 It is unlikely that I will be able to ferret out Victor Justice. All I can do is ban and block him. When he uses a VPN, I will block the VPN’s IP address bloc. Unfortunately, I run the risk of catching legitimate readers with this block. If that happens to you, please let me know.
A handful of readers (I see you Troy) think I should just delete comments from the Justices, Tees, and Revival Fires of the world. The reason I don’t is this: I want readers to see the ugly underbelly of Evangelical Christianity; that there are beliefs and practices that can and do turn people into vile, nasty, hateful human beings. Justice, Tee, and Revival Fires are not just a few bad apples in a barrel of pristine Red Delicious apples. My email, comments, and social media messages from Evangelicals suggest that a sizeable minority of God’s elect have no problem with viciously attacking anyone they disagree with — contrary to the teachings of Christ. These same people are MAGA and Qanon supporters. I fear these people, given the right circumstances, could be provoked to cause physical harm (as we saw in the 1/6/21 Insurrection).
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
What follows is a dialog from the Young Sheldon TV show between Sheldon Cooper (played by Iain Armitage), an atheist, and his Southern Baptist Mom, Mary Cooper (played by Zoe Perry).
Sheldon walks into the kitchen and finds his mom praying . . .
Sheldon: Who are you talking to?
Mom: God.
Sheldon: To yourself, got it.
Sheldon: And you think like Job, God is testing your faith?
Mom: Sure would explain all the bad things that are happening
Sheldon: So believing in a God that is going out of his way to ruin your life is more comforting than believing there’s no God at all?
Mom: Isn’t it past your bedtime?
Gotta love Sheldon. 🙂
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Too great praise challenges attention, and often brings to light a thousand faults that otherwise the general eye would never see. Were we allowed to read the Bible as we do all other books, we would admire its beauties, treasure its worthy thoughts, and account for all its absurd, grotesque, and cruel things, by saying that its authors lived in rude, barbaric times. But we are told that it was written by inspired men; that it contains the will of God; that it is perfect, pure, and true in all its parts; the source and standard of all moral and religious truth; that it is the star and anchor of all human hope; the only guide for man, the only torch in Nature’s night. These claims are so at variance with every known recorded fact, so palpably absurd, that every free unbiased soul is forced to raise the standard of revolt.
— Robert Ingersoll, Some Mistakes of Moses, 1879
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Last month — I am thirty days behind on answering my email — I received a thoughtful email from an atheist teenager who attends a Christian school. At the time he started attending this school, he was a believer. Eventually, he began to doubt, and now he is an atheist. The school used him as a shining advertisement for what a good Christian should be. This young man is having a hard time forgiving himself for being deceived by such a dangerous, harmful theology; for being anti-LGBTQ. He asked me if I had any advice for him that would help him forgive himself.
I have struggled with this question myself over the years. I was an Evangelical pastor for twenty-five years. I directly affected thousands of people with my teaching, preaching, and expectations. I taught people all sorts of harmful beliefs. Worse yet, I modeled behaviors and practices that negatively affected both church members and my family. I was an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) preacher for many years, especially during the early years of my marriage to Polly and the formative years of our six children.
Polly and I had a patriarchal, complementarian marriage. These beliefs materially harmed Polly, for which she carries psychological scars to this day. The same can be said for our children. Our beliefs about family and discipline harmed our children. I was the primary disciplinarian in our family, using the rod of correction to beat our three sons into submission. Fortunately, I came to see that such discipline was child abuse, so our youngest son and two daughters were spared the ass-whippings.
We, of course, modeled to church members what we believed and practiced in our home. It’s not that I was deliberately abusive as much as it was that I believed the Bible taught a certain way of family structure and discipline; the same structure and discipline that was modeled to me by my parents, pastors, and the churches I attended. Attending an IFB college only reinforced these beliefs, convincing me they were right. Until I became persuaded that I was wrong, I continued to practice the “Biblical” way of family life, marriage, and discipline. How could I have ever done otherwise? Everything around me screamed that I was right. My literalist interpretation of the Bible said I was right. It would take me thirty years to reach a place where I could admit that I was wrong.
This young man talks about forgiving himself. While I was a true-blue believer a lot longer than he was, I do understand the struggle over trying to figure out how I could ever have believed what I did. It seems clear to me now that I had bat-shit crazy beliefs; that those beliefs materially harmed not only myself but also other people. I was fifty years old before I walked away from Christianity. Why didn’t I come to the light sooner? Indoctrination and social conditioning play a big part in training generation after generation about the faith once delivered to the saints — the Evangelical, IFB version of it, anyway. How could I have believed otherwise? The church was my life. I was largely insulated from the world, outside of playing sports and my work for various secular companies and government entities. There was nothing in my world that said to me that I was wrong. In fact, every preacher I heard preach and every book I read reminded me that I was right; that my beliefs and practices were in line with the Bible.
The best advice I can give to the letter writer is this: carefully, honestly, and openly examine your life and the experiences that led to your decision to believe in Jesus Christ and attend a Christian school. Look at these things from a sociological perspective. Self-examination and self-reflection are essential in understanding your motivations and desires. Once you have done this, forgive yourself, and determine that you will think differently going forward; that your life will be governed by reason, skepticism, and common sense. As I look at my life as a Christian, I see that I was not skeptical; I valued faith over reason, and this led to me having irrational beliefs and practices.
I have found it to be much harder to forgive myself for what I did to my wife, children, and church members. My beliefs caused them harm, both psychologically and physically. With these people, restitution is required before forgiveness can be given. So, over the past fifteen years, I have tried to make things right with Polly and our grown children and people who once called me preacher. When given an opportunity, I have apologized for the harm I caused them. The good news is that to a person they have forgiven me. They have shown me grace and forgiveness, understanding that I was a product of my environment; that I ignorantly taught and modeled the beliefs that were taught and modeled to me.
The letter writer is in a somewhat different position from the one I was in. He is a minor and lives at home. I don’t know how religious his parents are, what sect they are a part of, and how open they will be if he honestly shares with them his feelings. This is why he must tread carefully, lest he finds himself in trouble with his parents, or worse yet, thrown out of the home. I have advised some atheist minors in similar circumstances, to fake it until they make it; wait to fully share their lack of belief until they are out of the house and on their own.
The goal for this young man should be making restitution to people he feels he has wronged with his past religious beliefs. However, even here he must be careful. What will the administration of his school say when they learn he is an atheist; that he is apologizing for his past beliefs? I’m inclined to think that this will not go over very well with them, and could lead to discipline or expulsion. Making things right may mean waiting until after graduation to do so.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Over the weekend, Adam Stockford, the mayor of Hillsdale Michigan, posted to his personal Facebook account and his official campaign account the post I had written about him last month. Titled MAGA Mayor Adam Stockford Says Hillsdale, Michigan is a “Traditional Values” Community, I wrote about Stockford’s use of the phrase “traditional values.” As expected, Stockford re-posting my article led to his acolytes coming after me personally. I detailed their “love” yesterday in a post titled Did You Know I am a Traitor, Communist, Marxist, a Danger to America, and an Awful Writer Too? One Hillsdale man named Ronald Cook has made it his personal mission to attack me, both publicly and privately. Cook spent twenty years in the military, achieving the rank of sergeant. After retiring, he spent the next twenty years working as a corrections officer. As you will see in a moment, Cook is a bully, making me wonder how much his forty years in authoritarian jobs helped to shape him into the hateful man he is today.
What follows is a Facebook Messenger “discussion I had with Cook over the past three days. As you will see, Cook’s hostility toward me escalated quickly, so much so that I reported him to Facebook. Some of you have been after me to take threats of violence more seriously, so I heeded your advice and acted accordingly. I have not yet heard back from Facebook.
This first comment is what Cook said on Stockford’s personal Facebook page.
Cook says that I should do the world a favor by standing in front of a speeding train and killing myself. He also says that I am a child molester. I don’t understand people like Cook. I didn’t insult him or say anything inflammatory, yet Cook went after me like a terrorist in Afghanistan or an inmate who dared to talk back to him. Cook is certainly not the first, nor will he be the last to threaten me with violence. What concerns me is that Cook only lives 30-45 minutes from my home. He definitely has anger issues and violent tendencies, so I don’t want to provoke him further.
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Thank you for your speedy reply. Not expected but grateful. A wise man once said; “…electricity is real, but you can’t see it.” This is what you are saying I guess. Albert Einstein stated “I believe in Spinoza’s God “. He did not believe in a personal God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as naive. He clarified however that, “I am not an atheist”, preferring to call himself an agnostic, or a “religious nonbeliever.”
I replied:
No, what I am saying is this: there is no evidence for the existence of a God, especially the Christian deity. Is it possible that someday a deity of some sort might make itself known to us? Sure. Unlikely, but possible. So that’s why I am an agnostic atheist. Practically speaking, I live my day-to-day life as an atheist. The only time I think about God at all is when writing for this site or doing an interview for other sites or news organizations. Life is too short to spend much time thinking about mythical beings.
Langley then sent me a lengthy response, to which I shall reply below. :
Well then we are both at a conundrum about our communication. You say one thing I say another. That’s fine left as it is you would agree.
All I did is explain my beliefs. What should I have said, instead? In the world I live in, disagreements are common, frequent, and encouraged. Is that not the case for Pastor Langley?
After lengthy reading most of your site, (10 minutes you calculated me).
Based on the server logs, Langley read less than 30 of the 4,588 published posts on this site. This means Langley read .00654307 percent of my posts — definitely not “most of your site.” Nor do the logs suggest he spent a lot of time reading my writing. Granted, he could have multiple IP addresses, but even then, it would take weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks to read “most” of my posts. I will leave it to Langley to explain his words. Perhaps he is “evangelistically speaking” — a method used by preachers to exaggerate church attendance, offerings, salvation decisions numbers.
You are a very prolific writer as seen on your web site. Maybe this web crawler will show a different time that I spent reading.
Yes, I am a prolific writer, much like I was a prolific preacher back in my preaching days (4,000 sermons). This blog is my job. I spend a significant amount of time each week reading Evangelical blogs, websites, and social media accounts. Since this site focuses on three things: my journey from Evangelicalism-to-atheism, critiquing Evangelicalism, and exposing criminal behavior by Evangelical preachers through the Black Collar Crime series, it is important for me to do my homework before writing a post.
I have been blogging for fifteen years. All told, I have written millions of words. I am a writer. This is what I do. The issues I write about matter to me, as they do the thousands of people who read my work. I make no apology for being “prolific.” Because I AM prolific, I am going to call out Evangelicals who say they have read most or all of my writing.
You certainly tore into my small paragraph, taking several paragraphs to break down every statement.
Okay? I am going to do the same with Langley’s latest email to me. What? Doesn’t he want me to respond? Maybe not. Rarely does a week go by when I don’t publicly respond to Evangelicals who email me or message me on social media. Again, doing so is my job. As far as “tearing” into Langley, he really should read more of my writing. I definitely didn’t give him the full “Bruce Gerencser Treatment®.” 🙂
From your side of the fence you did a great job too. You are not the only person that I have come in contact with as I am 68 years old. I have been preaching/pastoring for 35 years.
I assume there are a few words missing in the “you are not the only person that I have come in contact with” sentence. I assume he means “atheist” or “Evangelical-turned-atheist.”
I cannot say that I will continue in our correspondence. Couple reasons. If I were to be out Soul Winning and ran into to you there would be no argument, attack, preaching, etc. as you have stated many have come after you on the web site. Thus you set some rules and guidelines.
By the way our childhood’s are not so far apart. We all have a past. We don’t choose our parents they say. The other reason is that you would do the same thing as we are doing through this communication, and I would respect you and move on. There would be no attack, no preaching, no disrespect at all. So do not look for much more than you have been given. You obviously do not want to take up all your precious time with this type exchange.
I am more than happy to continue interacting with Langley, as I am every person who contacts me. As far as this site having contact and commenting guidelines, I have these things in place because of the nasty, hateful emails, comments, and messages I receive from Evangelicals — especially Independent Fundamentalist Baptists (IFB). Preachers, by the way, are the worst. They alone would be reason enough for me to reject Christianity,
It is just so odd to me when people say that they can know there is no God! Really.
Here’s the thing, I never said this. I made it clear to Langley that I am an agnostic atheist (as most atheists are).
Now, if the question is whether I believe the Bible God exists, I can confidently say “no.” I cannot, however, say with certainty that no deity of any sort exists. Doubtful? Yes. Probable? No. And that’s why I live my day-to-day life as an atheist (as does my wife). God is not part of my life in any way outside of my writing and speaking engagements.
That’s like taking a gamble on your life and everyone you win over to this thinking. I am sure you hae heard it all before; “What if you are wrong?” and the other one goes like; “To live the Christian life is not a bad way to live.”
Sigh. (Please see Why I Use the Word “Sigh”.)Here comes Pascal’s Wager, a terrible apologetic if there ever was one. Besides, Langley, doesn’t practice what he preaches. If he did, he would also be a Muslim, Jew, Mormon, and Hindu. Langley never asks himself, “what if I am wrong”? If he did, he would cover all his bases. Instead, he presupposes Christianity to be true.
As far as the “Christian life” not being a bad way to live, I couldn’t disagree more. As an atheist and a humanist, I am free to love, respect, and befriend everyone — I mean REALLY love and respect them — including LGBTQ people. Evangelicals are known for what? “Othering” people; neatly putting people into two categories: saved-lost, saint-sinner, Heaven-Hell, in-out. I prefer a world where freedom and choice are paramount; where the humanistic ideal reigns supreme.
As an unwashed, uncircumcised Philistine, my life is better in every way post-Jesus. Why in the world would I ever want to return to the garlic and leeks of Egypt? Since there is no Hell (or Heaven) I can’t think of one good reason to get up on Sunday and go to church. Besides, I already go to church, three services of the week: Church of the NFL.
So far I have seen the Bible proven wrong. In fact there seems to be many Historians that has proven much of it. Along with many great Scientists, whether they were believers or not there is proof from both sides in that field.
I will make Langley the same offer I have made to other people who tell me “the Bible has never been proven wrong.” The inerrancy and infallibility of the Protestant Christian Bible cannot be rationally, historically, or scientifically sustained. Langley has spent most of his sixty-eight years of life in the Evangelical bubble. His understanding of the Bible has been shaped and molded within the safe confines of the bubble. (Please see The Danger of Being in a Box and Why it Makes Sense When You Are In It and What I Found When I Left the Box.)
If Langley happens to read this post, I would like to offer him a free copy of one of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books on the history and nature of the Bible. Ehrman is a New Testament scholar at the University of North Carolina. I will gladly buy the book for Langley and have it shipped to his home in Oklahoma. I have made this offer numerous times over the years. Not one Evangelical preacher has accepted my offer. Some Evangelicals have read Ehrman’s books after I recommended them. Some of them later deconverted. (Jim Elliff says, Avoid Bart Ehrman, He Could Cause You To Lose Your Faith!)
So with that said I will wait for your response and not sure if it will warrant mine. You have said in this second answer already something that makes me believe that you do not know for sure about something.
Quote: “Is it possible that some day a deity of some sort might make itself known to us? Sure. Unlikely, but possible.”
I lack certainty on most things in life. I have confidence based on knowledge, probabilities, and lived experiences, but “certainty”? That is the realm of Evangelicals who are certain about all sorts of things, even though knowledge, probabilities, and lived experiences suggest they shouldn’t be.
As far as God and the central claims of Christianity are concerned, I am confident that my beliefs are correct. Langley hasn’t said anything that would cause me to change my mind or doubt my present beliefs. I have interacted with thousands of Evangelicals over the years. It’s been years since I have heard a novel argument, proving that Solomon was right when he said “there’s nothing new under the sun.”
You will have to read your email to me to understand. Of course you were correcting me so it may appear that you do not want to learn from anyone but Teach what you either believe, feel, or just aren’t sure of so you reject it.
I am always open to learning new things. However, Christianity is founded on the Bible. I spent thousands and thousands of hours reading and studying the Bible. It’s not a magical book, as Evangelicals claim, providing new information every time you read it. I have done my homework. Do I know “everything”? Of course not. But, I am confident that I understand the Bible, complete with its errors and contradictions. Langley is free to enlighten me, but I suspect, as readers shall see below, that he has no new light to offer.
Moral lives do not make an Eternity difference they just make a Moral life. When life ends then the question and subject you and have had will be up to you, but BEFORE DEATH you cannot do anything AFTER DEATH, which you are stating yourself. I say there are two, Hell or Heaven. To go to Hell do nothing. To go to Heaven one must Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ by Confessing our Sin asking God to Forgive us and believing that Jesus alone saved us by His death on the cross, his shed blood.
Ah, here comes the sermon, the soulwinning appeal. Does Langley think I have never heard these things before? Or did he feel led by the Holy Spirit to say them? Or, perhaps his words are for the lurkers and doubters who read my writing?
Besides, Langley is a Baptist. Once saved, always saved, right? If that’s the case, I am still a born-again Christian, and when I die, I will go to Heaven. Or, will Langley say I never was a “real Christian”? I will have to wait to see how he responds.
I certainly understand all of what you said about Christian, Church People Hurt the worst in those 35 years. Been there too sir.
Langley actually knows very little about my life. His comment reveals that he has read very little of my autobiographical material. Had he done his homework, he would have learned that “hurt” played almost no part in my deconversion. I have chosen not a be Christian because I weighed the central claims of Christianity in the balance and found them wanting. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.)
I just have to say “forgive me” Jesus suffered more than anyone at the hands of the human race and he was a human at the time, proven by Historians you well know, He was real just you and I have two points of view on these things it seems.
Yes, Jesus was real, but he was also, according to the Bible, God. We have no idea what he actually felt or experienced. After all, God was able to impregnate a Jewish teenager, so it is possible that Jesus’s death was for show. Regardless, Jesus suffered for all of six or so hours. He most certainly did not “suffer more than anyone.” I have battled chronic illness and unrelenting pain for years. I know suffering. I would gladly trade Jesus’s suffering for mine if it meant I would not suffer afterward. I know scores of people who would do the same.
All Langley and I can say is that Jesus was a Jewish man who lived, died, and is buried in an unknown grave somewhere in Palestine. Just because the Bible says something doesn’t mean it is true. The extant evidence suggests that Jesus was some sort of itinerate preacher who attracted, at most, a couple of hundred followers before he died. There’s no evidence, outside of the Bible, for the resurrection of Jesus or the miracles attributed to him. You would think Jesus would have made the front page of the Jerusalem Press a time or two, but he didn’t. Surely first-century historians would have been raving about his mighty works, yet they said almost nothing. Maybe, just maybe, the claims Christians make for Jesus are false.
Thank you again for the communication.
David Langley
Sinner saved by Grace of God
Unworthy but Grace was given
And as you have stated, trying to live a moral life, love family, love wife of 49 years
Praying that your health improves.
I will skip responding to Langley’s benediction. I do want to address his last sentence: “praying that your health improves.” Had Langley read my autobiographical material, he would have known that my health will not be improving; that I am slowly dying; that I have three kinds of days: less bad, bad, and really, really, really bad. I am sure Langley meant well, but offering up empty platitudes to people with incurable diseases is not helpful. Even more so when they are unbelievers.
If you are an Evangelical Christian, please read Dear Evangelical before sending me an email. If you have a pathological need to evangelize, spread the love of Jesus, or put a good word in for the man, the myth, the legend named Jesus, please don’t. The same goes for telling me your church/pastor/Jesus is awesome. I am also not interested in reading sermonettes, testimonials, Bible verses, or your deconstruction/psychological evaluation of my life. By all means, if you feel the need to set me straight, start your own blog.
Two words: please don’t.
A Sinner Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
My wife, Polly, and I have thirteen grandchildren, ages two to twenty-two. Over the next three years, ten of our grandchildren will be in junior high, high school, and college. One of the first things our older grandchildren do in school is type my name in Google. And what do they find? This blog. And perhaps for the first time, they learn that Grandpa is an atheist.
Out of respect for my children, I don’t talk about religion with my grandchildren. If asked, I will briefly answer their questions, but I wait until they are in high school before I have in-depth discussions with them about religion and politics. I typically shape my answers according to their age and the religious beliefs of their parents; how open their parents are to me sharing my story. The older they get, the more questions they have. Sometimes, I resort to buying them books for their birthdays or Christmas.
Last Saturday, we watched son #2’s three children, ages 12, 10, and 8. We had a delightful time. The girls talked my ears off, especially Emma, the twelve-year-old. Emma excitedly let me know that she had found my blog and that she knew I was an atheist. (I let her parents know she was reading my blog at school.) Emma is one smart cookie, top-of-the-class, a straight-A student who wants to be a large animal veterinarian someday. She loves to talk, as does her Grandpa, so we get along famously.
Emma didn’t ask me any questions about atheism. I did tell her Nana was an atheist too. However, she did share with me her own experiences in the Catholic church. (She definitely thinks her priest is b-o-r-i-ng.) 🙂 I found it fascinating to listen to her explain her view of the world. And make no mistake about it, kids her age have a worldview. Emma is a voracious reader, as are most of my grandchildren. Their parents are quite liberal when it comes to what they are allowed to read (as Polly and I were, surprisingly, with our children). The broader their reading experiences, the broader their worldview.
I told Emma about one of her older cousins being asked by her teacher if she was related to me. (The teacher had read a letter I had written to the local newspaper.) Sadly, my children have experienced this at the local community college and their places of employment. Dad is a public figure with a peculiar last name. People will naturally make the connection. I told my children they are free to disown me, but so far none of them has done so. As my grandchildren get older, they will face the same scrutiny.
After telling Emma this story, I was delighted to hear her say “I am proud of my Grandpa.”
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Last month, I wrote a post titled MAGA Mayor Adam Stockford Says Hillsdale, Michigan is a “Traditional Values” Community. Stockford is the mayor of Hillsdale, Michigan. Over the weekend, Stockford posted my article on his Facebook page. Of course, his MAGA-loving followers were quick to go for my jugular. One such neck-slitter was a retired soldier named Ronald Cook.
Cook made no attempt to interact with what I wrote, choosing instead to hurl invectives my way. I gave his comment and private messages the gravitas they so richly deserved. Enjoy! 🙂
Here are several other comments left by Stockford’s devotees.
All told, 90 people from Hillsdale read my post. Only three of them read more than one page. Not one of them clicked on the ABOUT page or the WHY? page. In fact, some of them couldn’t bear to finish reading my article. Yet, by reading one post about Adam Stockford and Hillsdale College, people such as Cook concluded I am a traitor, communist, Marxist, anti-American anti-Christ. And I am a bitter, piss-poor writer too. Let me give these fine folks a bit of the Bible: Answering before listening is both stupid and rude. (Proverbs 18:13)
Bruce Gerencser, 66, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 45 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
