Spend any amount of time on this site, and you will likely read posts detailing emails and social media messages I have received from Evangelical Christians. I left Christianity in November 2008. Since then, countless Evangelicals have attempted to evangelize me, attack my character, or threaten me with Hell. Rare is the thoughtful, polite Evangelical. I mean ivory-billed woodpecker rare. I see nothing in their behavior that commends Evangelical Christianity to unbelievers. Why would any of us ever want to willingly be in the same room with such people?
Some Evangelicals make it their personal mission to attack and harass me. What drives these people to do so? I have long pondered this question, wondering why these people repeatedly email me, send me messages on social media, and leave comments on my blog? What do they hope to accomplish? Surely they know that there is no chance that I will ever become an Evangelical Christian again. The same can be said for many of the readers of this blog. We are not low-hanging fruit. We are not prospects for Heaven. Why not go after people who might be more receptive to the gospel than Bruce Gerencser and his fellow agnostics and atheists?
I’m convinced that some Evangelical zealots have an unhealthy obsession with me. Why is that? I suspect some of them have fantasies about me. Outraged over what I write, they fantasize about me burning in Hell or being tortured by God. Others gleefully fantasize about me dying a slow, painful death (and they see my current health problems as proof they are right). And still other fantasize about God saving me and mightily using me to win souls to Jesus.
Here’s what I think. I am like porn to the Evangelicals mentioned above. They can’t quit looking at me and fantasizing about what they would like to do to me (or what God would do to me). I have thought that maybe I need to send the David Tees, David Barkers, Rev. Makerfields, and Daniel Kluvers of the world — my latest “lovers” — a naked photo of me they can put it on the ceilings above their beds. š Good idea?
Such people are not going away. As long as I continue to write, I will have to contend with people who are obsessed with me. I will continue to make public their emails, messages and blog posts, and do my best to ignore their harassment behind the scenes.
Today, I received two identical emails from an Evangelical man named Tom Barker. Evidently, his “message” from Jesus is so important that I need to read it twice. My response is indented and italicized. (All grammar and spelling in the original.)
There is a major TRUTH that needs to be addressed here. People like Bruce Gerencser and others who call themselves āatheistsā are really either Anti-theists and/or Anti-Christians.
Would it matter if I said that I am not an anti-theist or anti-Christian? Would it matter that scores of Christians read my writing? Of course not. Barker has determined, without evidence, that I hate Christians. Evidently, any critique of Christianity is considered hate.
Yes a combination of Satan the world and yourself and possibly another misguided human source has convinced you that āThere is no Godā. āNo God or gods of any kindā.
Barker seems unable to understand the difference between “there is no God (s)” and “there is no evidence for the existence of God.” I am an agnostic atheist. I have concluded, based on the evidence at hand, that the Christian deity is a work of fiction. The same goes for the God of Islam, Judaism, and Mormonism. That said, If Barker has compelling new evidence for his peculiar God’s existence, I am willing to listen. Further, since I don’t know everything, it is within the realm of possibility for me, that a god currently unknown to us might one day make itself known. Thus, I am agnostic on the God question.
I call myself an atheist because I live my life as if there is no God (not in denial, but because I see no evidence of a deity’s existence). The only time I think about God is when I write for this blog. It’s really that simple.
If Barker wants me to think differently, I suggest he convince me with good evidence that his God exists. Of course, Barker can’t do that, as this email clearly shows.
But there is a difference between āatheism and Anti-Christianity
Yes, there is. Have I ever said otherwise? As readers shall see in a moment, Barker’s g-string is tightly wedge in his ass over a meme I posted on my Facebook page.
And what the Facebook page ālife and times of Bruce Gerencserā is preaching is ANTI-CHRISTIANITY! I have been on mission in parts of the United States like Seattle and NYC and I have met atheists there they have no exposure to the gospel at all š. One guy even said he is a 4th generation atheist. He was not going on Facebook making snide comments about the Bible and the gospel. He was not going on Facebook with snotty little memes making fun of Old Testament scriptures that he knew absolutely nothing about!
Would it be impolite of me to say that Barker sounds like a whiny little bitch? How dare I make snide comments about the Bible and the gospel! Besides, I evidently don’t know anything about the Old Testament. š While I don’t know everything about the Bible, I suspect that my knowledge exceeds that of Barker. Consider the gauntlet thrown down, Mr. Barker. Let’s have a Bible Knowledge fight. Are you up for the fight? Time to put your KJV where your mouth is.
LATOBG does that! And I have several examples of anyone wants to see them.
LATOBG. Damn, a new acronym. š For readers who may not know, I have a Facebook page. I post links to my writing there, along with memes and occasional comments about things I have read on the Internet. My page is not a secret. By all means, check it out and click LIKE while you are there.
If you and the fellow bloggers and Fb friends were true blue atheists you wouldnāt be making anti-Christian posts and comments.
If what Barker says is true, would it not also mean that if he was a true-red Christian, he wouldn’t be making anti-atheist posts and comments? Sorry, Tom, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Tone policing (also tone trolling, tone argument, and tone fallacy) is an ad hominem (personal attack) and anti-debate tactic based on criticizing a person for expressing emotion. Tone policing detracts from the validity of a statement by attacking the tone in which it was presented rather than the message itself.
Instead of engaging my writing using good arguments, Barker’s fee-fees are hurt by what I say or the memes I post. Barker might want to peruse Christian blogs, websites, and social media pages. Anti-atheist content abounds. If I was butt-hurt every time an Evangelical posted a meme or blog post about atheists, why I would need constant applications of Vaseline just to sit down.
Memo to the Tom Barkers of the world: if what atheists write really chaps your asses, don’t read it. Problem solved.
And there is no way anyone can go into the light of Jesus Christ and then turn around and embrace the satanic darkness of unbelief ! Sad that someone can preach Godās Word and still have been lost all that time. š
Ah, now we get to Barker’s real issue with me. He can’t square my story with his theology, so he must come up with some way to discredit me. Thus, I was never a Christian. I was a “lost” preacher. Thousands of congregants and fellow colleagues in the ministry — all allegedly filled with the Holy Spirit — heard me preach and witnessed my life, yet none of them “discerned” that I was lost; that I was a fake Christian; that I never knew Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Amazing, right? I must have been more cunning and deceptive than Satan himself.
I strongly encourage you and anyone reading this to look up men like Lee Strobel and James Warner Wallace and Howard Storm. All were atheists who came to salvation through Christ Jesus!
I read all three of these authors. Color me not impressed. I watched a video several days ago of James Warner Wallace saying that the God of the Bible never committed genocide. And if he did, he repeatedly warned them about their false worship before he killed them. And, besides, he didn’t kill everyone, so it really wasn’t a genocide. Is this the best Evangelicalism has to offer?
Howard Storm actually had a vision of hell being dragged into it by demons!
And I had a “vision” of me and Pamela Anderson having sex. It didn’t happen, and neither did Storm’s vision of being dragged to Hell by demons. Before I believe such a story, Barker (and Storm) must provide evidence for the existence of Hell and demons. Of course, Barker can’t do that. All he has is the Bible and personal testimonies. Try harder, Tom, try harder.
Jesus Christ loves you all of you! He suffered and died and rose again to give you eternal life in heaven. Admit you are a sinner Believe sincerely that Jesus Christ died and rose again Trust and receive him now.
How does Barker know Jesus loves ALL of us? What if we are apostates or reprobates? What if we are not elect? This idea that Jesus loves everyone cannot be scripturally supported. Besides, Jesus is dead. Why should any of us care if a dead man “loves” us? Imagine if I traversed the blogosphere telling people that Napoleon loves them? Who gives a fuck? Napoleon is dead.
PrayāLORD Jesus I know I am a sinner lost and I need you. Please forgive me and save me pull me from the sewers of unbelief and into your saving grace I believe you died and rose again I trust and accept you now thank you for loving me forgiving me and saving me in Jesus name Amenā
Okay, I just prayed this prayer. I am now saved and guaranteed a home in Heaven after I die. Woo! Hoo!
What a truncated, powerless gospel Baker preaches. In my Calvinistic days, we called such a gospel decisional regeneration — the belief that salvation is secured by saying and believing the right words. This is the gospel preached by most Evangelical preachers. It is a gospel of “right beliefs” instead of “right living.” Long before I became an atheist, I rejected this gospel. The Bible is clear, “without holiness no man shall see the Lord” and “faith without works is dead.” If Christianity has no power to transform, it’s worthless; it’s little more than a social club. I may be an atheist, but I might be inclined to admire a religion that took seriously practicing love, kindness, compassion, and loving your neighbor as yourself. I doubt I would become a believer, but I might say, “good job, Christians, good job.”
There is a promise that will come to pass. One day every human ever conceived will appear before Jesus Christ and will confess him as Lord. All who have trusted in him alone for eternal life and forgiveness of sins through his death and resurrection will embrace him as LORD in adoration and thanksgiving! Those who died too young to accept him including the millions murdered in the womb will also appear in a glorified body and embrace him in adoration and thanksgiving! Those who rejected him will bow and confess him as LORD in despair and regret for the decision to reject his grace and mercy and chose to pay for their own sins in the lake of fire. šš (and YES! It is very real!)
Ah yes, we can’t have an email from an Evangelical without a threat of judgment and Hell. Does this ever work with atheists? Nope, but evidently Barker never got the memo.
in short as we head into the heart of July all atheists agnostics Anti-Christians,Muslims,Jehovah witnesses , Mormons and many others who have flat rejected Christās grace and/or tried to earn their salvation through āreligionā and good works one day will wish they were all at a water park!
In other words, everyone is going to Hell except Barker and those who believe like him. He and “Dr.” David Tee (theologyarcheology), along with Daniel Kluver will have Heaven all to themselves. Heaven will be a zoo no one wants to visit.
God bless
In other words, fuck you, Bruce. I hope you burn in Hell.
If Heaven is filled with Tom Barkers, give me Hell every time. Fortunately, Barker and I are headed to the same place — the grave. See ya there, Tom. š
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I recently wrote a post titled, The Horrors of the Evangelical Hell. Included in that post was a long email I received from a man named Rev. James Makerfield — likely a fake name. I typically send Evangelicals a link to the post of my response to them. I am happy to report that my post on Hell was so persuasive and devastating that it left Makerfield speechless. Almost, anyway. All Makerfield could say was this: Lost cause š
Rev. Makerfield has finally seen the light. Atheists and agnostics are indeed “lost causes.”
Now, go away and find someone who gives a shit. I don’t, and neither do my fellow unbelievers.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Today, I received the following email from a Christian man named Wesley. It is one of the most assumption-filled emails I have ever received. Based on the server logs, I suspect Wesley is a follower of Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) evangelist and pastor C.T. Townsend. So what’s with Townsend’s followers, right?
As you shall see below, Wesley makes all sorts of assumptions about me, none of which are true. My response is indented and italicized.
My question is serious and before you reply with a long rant, I would like you to know that as stated before it is at the heart “serious” and I would appreciate a serious reply.
I can’t read Wesley’s heart, so all I can do is respond to what he has written. I am not a mind reader. I have no way of differentiating between a “serious” and not serious email/comment. Instead, I respond to what people say. Sometimes, I give people the “Bruce Gerencser Treatment.” I make no apology for doing so. One of the great things about leaving Christianity is that I no longer have to fake play-nice to people. Attack me personally or shit on my doorstep, and I will likely give you a shellacking. Ask a thoughtful, honest question, and I will respond in kind.
Not and angry and aggressive reply reflecting your hatred but with respect as I will in no way show you disrespect.
Wesley assumes I am angry and filled with hatred. He mistakes passion and directness for anger. He mistakes disagreement for hatred. How many times do I need to say that I am not, by nature, an angry, hateful man? Can I become angry? Sure, I am human. That’s said, I am generally a pleasant, happy man — even though I live with debilitating sickness and pain.
Question: If you hate God, Christianity, etc. then why do you have an overwhelming desire to disprove, attack, undermine etc if you will, something that you believe is a fallacy or fantasy? As many other atheists do the same thing I always pondered this.
Wesley wrongly assumes I hate God. I don’t. People read my post, Why I Hate Jesus, and they conclude that I “hate” God. Such people fail to understand the nuance and context of this post. If Wesley is basing his assumptions about me on that post, I hope he will re-read the article and think about what I am actually saying. Try harder, Wesley, try harder.
I am an agnostic and an atheist. As an atheist, I believe there is no God. Based on the available evidence, I have concluded that the Christian God (Wesley’s God) is a work of fiction. Further, I have weighed the central claims of Christianity in the balance and found them wanting. Thus, I don’t “hate” God. In fact, it would be silly for me to hate God or any other fictional being. Imagine me saying I hate Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Silly, right? So it is with God.
What I DO hate is Fundamentalist Christianity. Hopefully, Wesley understands what I am saying here. I hate what Fundamentalist Christianity does to people. I hate the psychological (and, at times, physical) harm it causes. Simply put, Fundamentalist Christianity hurts people. Who are the people behind the culture war? Who are the people behind attempts to turn the United States into a theocracy? Who are the people trying to ban abortion and force LGBTQ people back in the closet? Who are the people who demand prayer and Bible reading in public schools? Who are the people who want to regulate what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms? Who are the people who want preferential treatment for their religion? Need I go on? Fundamentalist Christians, that’s who.
As long as Fundamentalist Christians do these things, I intend to push back. Are Wesley and others like him willing to “live and let live”? Of course not. There’s no king but Jesus, Evangelicals say, and as long as they keep trying to make Jesus the ruler and king over all, I intend to fight back.
The stated purpose of this blog is to help those who have questions and doubts about Christianity or who have left Christianity. My target audience had NEVER been committed followers of Jesus. Therefore, I limit my interaction with such people to responding to their emails and comments.
I am just one man with a story to tell. Unfortunately, it seems that Wesley doesn’t want me to tell my story. Evangelicals have blogs, websites, churches, and parachurch ministries, all of which are used to preach the gospel, evangelize, and tell their stories. I assume Wesley thinks this is fine. Why, then, should atheists and agnostics not do the same? I think my beliefs and values are superior to Christianity. So why wouldn’t I want to share them?
Wesley thinks I have an “overwhelming desire” to attack God/Christianity/Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am retired. Writing for this blog is my “job,” but it’s not the sum of my life. First, I am quite sick. Last night, I had my worst bout of pain — ever. Quite frankly, I wanted to die. I was flopping and thrashing on the bed, trying to find a way to lessen the pain. Nothing worked, including narcotics, NSAIDs, and potent muscle relaxers. I finally took my pain to the living room, hoping not to disturb Polly’s sleep further. She was, of course, worried. Today, I am tired and weak, but thanks be to Loki, my pain is not as bad. At no time last night did I think about God/Christianity/Bible/atheism. Sorry, Jesus ain’t that important to me.
However, the people who read this blog ARE important to me. I know that every day someone, maybe lots of someones, will find help through my writing. I know that what I do matters.
I have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. I am an avid Cincinnati Reds, Cincinnati Bengals, and Ohio State fan. I am a Lionel Trains collector. I am a photographer. I love to take road trips and eat out. And most of all, I am married to the most awesome woman in the world.
If we are all going back to the dirt and there is nothing after then why bother? It seems that if Christian’s are wasting their time then would it not be, in the same sense, of equal and mutual regard concerning the plight of a zealous atheist?
Is Wesley saying that without his peculiar God that his life would not have meaning or purpose? Is he saying that non-Christians (most of the inhabitants of earth) have empty lives? Is he saying that the only reason his life matters is because the Bible says God will reward him after death?
Yes, death is the end for all of us. Yes, the afterlife is a myth. But, these facts don’t negate the fact that we DO have THIS life; that we are blessed to be among the living. Just because I will die (sooner than later) doesn’t mean that the present doesn’t matter. It does. You see, I care about others. I genuinely want what’s best for them. I want my children and their families to have better lives than I had. I want to see them prosper and live in peace. I want to help make the world a better place to live. I even want Wesley to have a good life.
I don’t believe I have ever said that Christians are wasting their time by practicing their religion. I am a proponent of free speech and freedom of (and from) religion. That said, I do think that Evangelicals are wasting their time trying to evangelize atheists. Thousands of Evangelicals have tried to win me to (or back) Jesus since 2007. I am not a prospect for Heaven, and neither are the unbelievers who read this blog. Thus, when Evangelicals continue to preach at us and attempt to use worn-out, lame apologetical methods, they are wasting their time.
If you just want to live then just live right?
Sure, but as long as Fundamentalist Christians psychologically (and, at times, physically) harm others, I can’t and won’t just sit by and do nothing. As long as Evangelical preachers sexually molest children, rape teenagers, and take sexual advantage of people, I will speak out, publicizing their abhorrent behavior for all to see. As longs as racial minorities, LGBTQ people, and non-religious people are marginalized and harmed, I will fight back.
“Live and let live” is a grand objective, but as long as we live in a world where religious zealots, bigots, and racists harm others, I can’t ignore what’s going on around me. This was true when I was a Fundamentalist Christian, and it is true now.
I hope you will reply but if you feel an overwhelming need to vent or otherwise… please refrain from doing so as I am TRULY seeking and want no part of an agenda. With warm regards and wishing you to have a wonderful day, Wesley.
For some reason, Wesley wants to control what I say or how I respond to him. Sorry, dude, the moment you hit “send,” you lost control of my response. You could have just asked a question, sans the subtle attacks on my character. Instead, you chose to do otherwise, thus my response. I believe I have answered you fairly, openly, and honestly. If you view my response as angry or hateful, that’s your problem, not mine.
I hope I have adequately responded to your assumptions and questions. If not, please let me know.
Saved by Reason,
My editor, Carolyn, often helps me out by answering emails. Unbeknownst to me, she was writing an answer to Wesley at the same time I was. Her answer appears below:
Wesley,
I am Bruceās editor and I often help him stay abreast of his email, so I am answering you. No rant, no anger, no aggression, and I am taking your question seriously.
I think you read Bruce wrong. He has no hatred, except for the abuses that take place in Evangelical churches. Bruce does not hate God, nor does he hate Christianity. Letās address the āgodā thing first: Bruce does not believe in god ā any god. Itās pretty hard to hate something you donāt believe exists. Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, leprechauns, gods ā they all fall into the same category. They are mythical beings and Bruce neither hates nor likes, because they donāt exist.
Now to Christianity: As you probably know, Bruce was a part of Christianity for more than 50 years. When he left Christianity, and subsequently deconverted, he didnāt leave in a rage of anger, but it was probably more like with a broken heart. He searched over 100 churches looking for one that followed the tenets of Jesus. Instead he found churches that were more wrapped up in themselves and who only paid lip service to Jesus and Christianity.
Now, as to what Bruce hates: he hates the sexual and psychological (and sometimes physical) abuses that take place in IFB churches ā he was a pastor of various IFB churches for 25 years, so this is where his heart was and where he has the most knowledge. He also hates abuses in other churches, but focuses his writings on IFB churches because they are the ones he knows best. He hates the pastors that engage in abusive conduct. This is why he write his Black Collar Crime series, because he believes it is important that everyone knows and understands that pastors are not āMen of God,ā and are not above everyone else, nor are they above the law, but that they often engage in conduct that makes them the lowest of the low.
He also hates the āunder the bloodā philosophy, which allows malefactors to escape responsibility for their wrongdoings by sweeping it all under the rug, claiming that whatever they did before they were saved doesnāt matter. Indeed, they often keep on engaging in egregious conduct after they were saved, believing that all they have to do is get saved again and all is forgiven.
You asked, āIf we are all going back to the dirt and there is nothing after then why bother?ā Bruce takes a humanist approach to life. Among other things, he works every day to be kind to others. And when he fails, he is quick to own his failure and to apologize to the person to whom he was unkind. Indeed, here is advice that Bruce gives to readers on his About page:
You have one life. There is no heaven or hell. There is no afterlife. You have one life, itās yours, and what you do with it is what matters most. Love and forgive those who matter to you and ignore those who add nothing to your life. Life is too short to spend time trying to make nice with those who will never make nice with you. Determine who are the people in your life that matter and give your time and devotion to them. Live each and every day to its fullest. You never know when death might come calling. Donāt waste time trying to be a jack of all trades, master of none. Find one or two things you like to do and do them well. Too many people spend way too much time doing things they will never be good at.
Hereās the conclusion of the matter. Itās your life and you best get to living it. Someday, sooner than you think, it will be over. Donāt let your dying days be ones of regret over what might have been.
Carolyn
She knoweth me well. Carolyn is known in our home as my “other wife.” š
Several days ago, Tom, an Evangelical Christian, sent me the following email. My response is indented and italicized.
Since 2007, thousands of Evangelicals zealots have emailed me, sent me messages on social media, or left comments on this blog/Facebook/Twitter. Bloggers have deconstructed my life or exposed the errors of my way. Preachers have preached sermons exposing my apostasy and heresy. Each of them has an opinion about my writing, story, past and present life, or where I am headed after I die. I have come to accept that such treatment is the price I pay for daring to tell my story; for daring to speak about what goes on behind closed doors in Evangelical churches and parachurch ministries; for daring to publicize the criminal behavior — mainly sex crimes — of Evangelical preachers. How dare I share with readers my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism. Why can’t I just shut up and move on? some zealots say. They want to freely preach the gospel and share their conversion stories to anyone and everyone, yet atheists and agnostics are expected not to do the same. While there are increasing numbers of atheist blogs, websites, podcasts, and call-in shows, their presence pales compared to those of Evangelicals.
As long as I can figure out a way to type — which is becoming increasingly difficult for a myriad of reasons — I intend to keep writing. Since prayers — thousands of them over the years — to the Christian God asking him to stop my work have failed, Evangelicals might want to rethink how best to reach or stop me. Using the same worn-out arguments, pejorative statements, and character assassinations no longer works. There was a time when such things worked, psychologically wounding me, resulting in me shutting down my blog. That’s old history. This iteration of my blog is 6 1/2 years old. Thanks to years of counseling and support from many of you, I can see beyond verbal assaults (even death threats) by God’s chosen ones. Simply put, as long as I am breathing, I ain’t going away.
Now to Evangelical Tom’s (ET) email and my response.
Every publication in the world references the birth of Jesus Christ by placing the date at the top of the page. Have they conspired to place Jesus’ birthday on every page to make atheists look like fools? Ha haā¦ Even you’re forced to use Jesus’ birthday for every article you post. Why? The entire world’s calendar is based on the birth of Christ for a reason.
Tom is ignorant of the development of the calendar most of the world now uses. Currently, we use what is called the Gregorian calendar. Developed in the sixteenth century, the Gregorian calendar was based on the Julian calendar — a calendar used for 1,600 years. This calendar was adapted from the Roman calendar. Any cursory reading of history reveals that the “Christian” calendar’s foundation is non-Christian/secular/pagan. I am not an expert on this subject, but it took me all of five minutes to learn that Tom is — let me say this charitably — uninformed.
Tom asserts that “every publication in the world references the birth of Jesus Christ.” Yet, evidently, Tom has never heard of the Islamic calendar, Nepal Sambat, or Hebrew calendar — to name a few.
In a few sentences, I have shown that Tom’s calendar claims are not true. Besides, why does it matter what our calendar is based upon? Tom claims there is a “reason,” but he never gives it. In the future, he might start by stating on what date, exactly, Jesus was born. Was Jesus born on year zero? Nope. Historians generally believe Jesus was born between 6 BCE to 4 BCE. Surely Tom knows that the date of Jesus’ birth is NOT mentioned in the Bible. If the birth of Jesus is the monumental event Tom says it is, the Bible would tell us what day and what year the most important figure in human history was born. Yet, the Bible says nothing.
I do agree that Christians should be held to a higher degree of accountability for their wickedness, but rejecting God and his word is foolish. Your articles may serve a purpose by exposing tares who are impostors, but God is not to blame for the sins of men.
I assume Tom is referencing the Black Collar Crime series, which details the arrests and convictions of Evangelical preachers for criminal behavior (mainly sex crimes). I don’t believe I have ever said that the behavior of these miscreants played any part in my deconversion. Perhaps Tom missed the WHY? page — you know, the page that lists several posts detailing my reasons for walking away from Christianity.
Tom says that God is not to blame for human sin. However, the Bible teaches that God is the creator of everything. I wonder if Tom has ever heard about the sovereignty of God? You know, the belief that God is in control of EVERYTHING. And if the Christian deity isn’t in control of everything, he isn’t God. If God created everything, how is he not the creator of sin? If God controls every aspect of our lives, right down to knowing how many hairs are on our heads, how is he not responsible for our behavior? Evangelicals like Tom love to talk about an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful creator God, yet when it comes to bad shit Evangelical preachers do, hey, that’s on them, not God. If God is all that the Bible says he is, he could stop predator preachers from raping and molesting children; he could stop preachers from taking advantage of vulnerable women (and men). Yet, he does nothing. This is why most atheists are better people than the Bible God. If we saw someone sexually assaulting a child, we would do something about it. Silence is consent.
I actually agree with Tom. God is not culpable for vile criminal acts perpetrated by so-called men of God. The reason for this, however, is that there is no God. As an atheist and a humanist, I am a proponent of personal accountability and responsibility. But, unlike Tom, I don’t believe in a magic get-out-of-jail-free card called 1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Every preacher featured in the Black Collar Crime series prayed and asked Jesus to forgive them for their sins. God forgave them, and with a loving hug told them, be a nice boy and *wink wink* sin no more. Should we just set them free? If God has forgiven them, shouldn’t we? Of course not. Justice demands that criminal behavior be punished. What God allegedly says doesn’t matter.
My perspective is that you’re likely a reprobate who is consumed with writing about other reprobates. Correct me if I’m wrong and I’ll pray for God to have mercy on you.
According to Romans 1 and 2, a reprobate is someone who has crossed a moral line of no return. Once this line is crossed, a person can’t be saved. Tom thinks I am a reprobate. Why? Because I write the Black Collar Crime series. In Tom’s mind, exposing sex crimes by Evangelical preachers is a sure sign that I am a reprobate. Figure that one out.
Romans 1:28-32 describes the behavior of reprobates:
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Is there anything in this list of reprobate behaviors that remotely reflects how I live my life? Or is Tom just making shit up? Tom needs me to be a reprobate for my story to “fit” in his Evangelical box. If I am a kind, loving, thoughtful person — and I am — that means I am not a reprobate. I am just a good person who doesn’t need God, the Bible, or threats of judgment to treat others well.
I’m sure you’ve read this one a few times:
Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
No, I have never heard that a “fool says in his heart there is no God.” That’s sarcasm, by the way. I have heard (and preached on) this verse countless times. The same goes for Psalm 14:1.
Here’s the problem with Psalm 53:1. The text says atheists are corrupt and do abominable acts. While this certainly can be said of some atheists, most unbelievers I know are good people. In fact, most atheists’ lives measure up with the best of Christians, albeit the sex is a lot better. Nothing like atheist sex, baby! š The Toms of the world need atheists to be bad people for their worldview to make sense. Atheists stand on the side of Satan and evil. We are an enemy that must be battled and defeated. What if we are, instead, just people with different opinions on God, Jesus, the Bible, and the afterlife? What if we are just people who have a different idea about what gives life meaning and purpose? What if Tom and others like him saw atheists and other unbelievers as they are instead of the caricature they have fabricated in their minds?
The only reason this blog exists is because of the psychological harm caused by Fundamentalist Christian interpretations of the Bible. If Evangelicals stopped trying to shove their religion down the throats of unbelievers, stopped trying to force people to follow the immoral teachings of the Bible, and stopped trying to turn the United States into a Christian nation, I would shutter this blog and never write another word. If Evangelicals stopped abusing people psychologically (and, at times, physically), I wouldn’t have anything to write about. That Evangelical beliefs and practices continue to cause harm is incontrovertible. As long as this is true, I intend to keep sharing my story and keep giving my honest critiques of the one true faith. Call me a “fool” all you want. Calling me names will not silence me. Now, you could buy my silence. Tom, please make that $1,000,000 check payable to Bruce Gerencser. After receiving your check which clears your bank, I will stop writing for this blog (and that million-dollar price for silence is available to any of my critics). Time to put your money where your mouth is.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
I have never, ever heard John 3:3 before. *sigh* Tom sure showed that Evangelical-turned-atheist Bruce Gerencser, right? The “mighty” inspired, inerrant, infallible King James Bible says:
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)
Yep, just hearing John 3:3 has brought me to my knees. I am laughing hysterically at the notion that just quoting words from an ancient religious text will somehow magically cause me to change my mind about God/Jesus/Bible/Christianity. Besides, I thought Tom said I was a reprobate. Doesn’t that mean that quoting the Bible to me is a waste of time? Hmm … maybe, just maybe, Tom is talking to himself. Maybe he has doubts, and by preaching to me, he is trying to reinforce his beliefs and prop up his faith.
What, exactly, did Tom hope to accomplish by emailing me? I have posed this question to other Evangelical zealots more times than I can count. I am not low-hanging fruit. There’s no chance that I will return to Evangelicalism. Even God himself, the big three-in-one, can’t make me return to the leeks and garlic of Egypt. I’ve been to the Promised Land, and I ain’t coming back. I have done my homework and concluded that the central claims of Christianity are not true. I have heard every possible argument for the existence of God and the truthfulness of Christian beliefs. I can’t imagine a zealot coming up with a new (or improved) argument. Christians have had almost fourteen years to change my mind, yet I remain unconvinced, an unrepentant atheist. Will this fact keep Evangelicals from contacting me? Of course not. Why? Because it has never been about me; it’s about them and their need to be right.
I listen to several atheist call-in shows and podcasts, particularly late at night. I take three medications at night to help with insomnia and pain, yet it still takes two to three hours for me to fall asleep. Typically, I watch TV shows/movies on my iPad Pro or listen to YouTube videos. Instead of saying bedtime prayers to the ceiling God, I fall asleep listening to videos/podcasts produced by the Atheist Community of Austin, Jimmy Snow, Matt Dillahunty, Rationality Rules, the Godless Engineer, and other atheist content producers.
Of late, I have become increasingly troubled by several atheist talk show hosts and podcasters who show a lack of understanding about Christianity and the Bible. If you are going to critique Evangelicalism and the Bible, then you should, at the very least, have a working knowledge and understanding of that which you are criticizing.
One call-in show host said that Jesus, during his lifetime, had LOTS of followers. This is patently false. According to Dr. Bart Ehrman’s book, The Triumph of Christianity, it is likely Jesus had around 20 followers in 30 CE. That group “exploded” to a few hundred people by 60 CE. In Acts 1:13-26, after the death of Jesus, 120 people gathered in the upper room for prayer, to listen to a sermon by Peter, and choose a replacement (Matthias) for Judas. One thing is certain: a relatively unknown, obscure itinerant Jewish preacher did NOT have lots of followers.
Another call-in show host said that Jesus started a new religion. He most certainly did not. Jesus was a Jew; his followers during his lifetime were observant Jews who worshiped at the Temple in Jerusalem. According to Acts 11:25-26:
Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Jesus was not a Christian. Jesus didn’t start First Baptist Church in Jerusalem. If we take Acts 11 as accurate history, the first time the followers of Jesus were called Christians happened 40 years after the life and death of Jesus.
And finally, another call-in talk show host, an ex-Jehovah’s Witness, objected when a caller said Christianity was a cult. The host vehemently disagreed, saying that her former religion was a cult, but garden variety Christian sects were NOT cults. This host, for some reason, thought it important that the word cult be reserved for just “bad” religions — her former religion. The host showed a real lack of awareness about other Christian sects, particularly Evangelical denominations. Fortunately, the show’s co-host gently corrected his fellow host’s incorrect assertions.
I have noticed that some atheist call-in talk show hosts have a hard time saying “I don’t know” or admitting that they lack understanding about a particular subject. Wanting to be viewed as authoritative, these hosts (at times) speak beyond that which they know. I am in no way suggesting that these hosts are deliberately saying untrue things. I suspect that the problem is a lack of knowledge. It’s important to know what we don’t know. I don’t pontificate on this blog about science or non-Christian religions. While I am not ignorant of some aspects of these things, I am not an authority. Want to talk about Evangelicalism or the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement? I’m your man. I know what I’m talking about. I try to stay in my lane, focusing my work on subjects for which I have expertise.
To these show hosts and podcasters, I say, do better, my fellow atheists, do better. Christians deserve to have their religion, in all its flavors, accurately represented. Atheists don’t like it when their beliefs are straw-manned, and neither do Christians. If you are going to critique Christianity in general and Evangelicalism in particular, please put in the work necessary to know what the hell you are talking about. If you are unwilling to do your homework, please turn off the microphone.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
“Dr.” David Tee (David Thiessen) — an Evangelical zealot — is an expert in passive-aggressive writing. Of late, Tee has written five or so posts about me. I am starting to think that Tee has a man-crush on me — even though I am not gay or bisexual. Sorry, David, I know you want me, but it ain’t going to happen. š My three wives and 666 concubines keep me way too busy — wink, wink, if you know what I mean (just following in the footsteps of Solomon, the “wisest” man in the Bible).
Tee warns Christians — especially “immature” believers — not to read my writing lest I lead them astray. Evidently, I am more powerful than God. Cool, right? Tee views himself as a Bible expert. I suspect what irritates the heaven out of him is that I know as much as he does (if not more) about the Bible and Christianity. He knows that my writing can and does lead people to the light — of skepticism, reason, and intellectual inquiry. So, he rages against me, hoping that the few people who read his blog will be warded off from this site. Much like the gospel he preaches, his efforts are doomed to fail.
Tee has written two posts about me (and others) this week. The first post is titled Applying Scripture. Here’s an excerpt from this post:
We have done many articles recently using two non-Christian websites as a source for our topics. It is not wrong to do so and we may address more of the issues they raise n future articles.
What is important though, is how to respond to these people. One of the keys to approaching those that either do not believe or did believe and turned away from their salvation is that they do not accept Godās definitions, Godās thinking, nor anything to do with God.
That makes it very tough to deal with because they will avoid the truth as much as possible.
….
Godās love tells everyone to forsake evil, wrong behavior, and so on. However, only God defines those categories and places different actions in each category. Star Trek and unbelievers do not have the authority or power to change that categorization.
All they can do is create something that continues to corrupt people and leaves them in their sin. They call it by other terms but it certainly is not love. Then there is Bruce and his views on abortion (We are tired of trying to type his last name).
….
It is impossible for Christians to talk to unbelievers and quitters because they have a low view of human life and think it is okay for women to murder or kill. They change the concept of an unborn child in hopes of relieving any guilt or regrets from disposing of human life for selfish reasons.
A woman has no right to kill anyone including an unborn child. Pro-abortionists do not have the power or authority to change the status of the unborn child. The pregnancy period is Godās choice and life starts at conception no matter what sinful term is used to describe it.
These are the situations where applying scripture correctly will help believers focus their energies on topics and issues that really matter. That application takes correct discernment.
First, you have to discern if it is really God leading you to interact with these people. Then if that is so, you need to discern which scriptures will help you in that interaction. Both steps are governed by your going to your prayer closet and praying.
You will need prayer to protect you from the subtle attacks of unbelievers and those that turn away. Then you need to ask for wisdom and understanding to tackle the interaction. Having the correct knowledge will help as well.
One of the biggest complaints atheists have had over the years is that believers do not know anything or they know very little. Getting the right knowledge is not wrong as your ability to discern will help you use that knowledge with Godās help in a manner that is effective and convincing.
Bruce tends to complain a lot when evangelicals make comments on his website about his desire to return to the faith and so on. Those comments are not very discerning as they ignore what Hebrews says in chapter 6:
4Ā For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5Ā and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6Ā and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame
Sometimes it is best to ignore such people and just use what they write on their blogs as teaching tools to show believers what to watch out for. Remember that unbelievers will camouflage their deceptive thoughts with a lot of truth.
For example, in the quote above Bruce mentions that right to life people are only right to be born advocates. That is true in many circumstances. He wasnāt the first to say it, as Robin Williams said it before him and we may have beaten him to that fact as well.
But that fact does not mean we stop being anti-abortion supporters. We just have to broaden our methods and reach more people through a better strategy that only God can give. Also, the Bible does not say to focus on saving the unborn only. They are plenty of other innocent people who need our help.
That is where discernment comes in. Knowing which strategies to use and where to apply them will help make you a better success for God than ignoring Godās instructions in hopes of saving those who cannot be saved anymore.
When you get the correct discerning powers, you will notice that the unbeliever, etc. will think they have been enlightened, that they came to the truth, and that they alone can make determinations for everyone else.
….
No, we are not hypocrites because we are doing what God says to do. We do not listen to unbelievers because the Bible instructs us not to; we do not accept sinful positions because they are wrong and sinful; we do not have ultra-literal interpretations because we are doing what Christ said to do- know the truth.
Meerkat is upset because his ideas are being rejected and he has no say in the Christian way of life. But he rejects God and his ways so why should he expect to be accepted when he attacks the very belief of those he wants to accept his views?
It is neither rational nor logical and discernment lets you know that and that he is doing nothing but trying to ruin Christian lives and get them sent to hell. He may not realize that is what is taking place but Christians with discernment see it very clearly.
Bruce is the same way. He wants his views to be accepted but he will reject anything to do with God, the Bible, and Christianity. The two are hypocrites because they say one thing but in reality, act differently from what they say.
As you can see, Tee thinks of himself as a uber-mature Christian who is called by the Evangelical God to “protect” weak, immature followers of Jesus. Evidently, the Holy Spirit, who allegedly lives inside every Christian, is too busy playing golf to protect them from atheist bloggers. Christians should be glad that Mr. Tee is on the job, protecting them from an evil Meerkat and Santa Claus. (Please see Ben Berwick’s blog, Meerkat Musings.)
I love that Tee has finally admitted why he refuses to take the time to spell my last name correctly. He’s too lazy to do so. Tee can write thousands of words about me, but he can’t spell my last name correctly.
We all know what is going on inside the mind of an atheist. But it is nice to have them make confessions once in a while. B.G. (Bruce Gerencser) has written a little confession that clears up any confusion. His very first line tells us everything we need to know about atheists:
Atheists of every stripe agree that all the gods of human religions are false; that these gods do not have magical, supernatural powers; that they do not answer prayer, heal the sick, or raise the dead. These gods are made and shaped by human hands and do not, as many religionists suggest, live beyond the space-time continuum.
The only thing true about this comment is that it describes exactly what the atheist believes and thinks. The Bible says the fool has said there is no god and this is not something that has suddenly appeared in the 20th or 21st century.
It has been going on since almost time began. B. G. is saying nothing new and after all these millenniums you would think the atheist would come up with something new and better. They donāt because they have nothing to offer anyone.
The first line in that quote doesnāt prove anything except that the atheist is not using fact, physical evidence, reality, or even truth to make their decision. They also use no authority either. They have just decided that is the way it is and then attack anyone brave enough to admit that they cannot do life alone.
Their statement that there is no God is not fact just what they wish it was. They hope for this because they have been deceived and do not want to think about the ramifications of their decision.
They also ignore all the evidence proving that God does exist. They are not enlightened but simply deceived. They do not have the truth ut gave it up for whatever false promise they have been given by evil.
Then they think they are winning because they are being successful in turning people away from God. How sad that is because they are aiding evil in its hatred against God and destroying peopleās eternity and lives.
They mock those who hold onto their faiths and that is a sign of weakness, as most people who canāt, mock those who can. They are too weak to take the step of faith and live the life that Christ wants them to live so they do whatever they can to harm those who can.
The atheist may not realize it as they are blind to what is going on in their lives and who is pulling their strings. These people are too afraid to deal with reality so they deny the existence of evil as well.
Those denials leave them in a quandary as they now have no source for good and bad behavior. They have no standards to measure themselves or others to see if they are on the right path. Instead, they failed so they deny everything that would remind them of their failure.
Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of gods. While there may be a God that has not yet revealed itself to us, such a possibility is improbable. Most atheists are comfortable living their lives with no thought of God or religion.
This is another sign of weakness. They do not want to draw a line in the sand so they leave a little opening there just in case. What they are really saying is that the God who has revealed himself to everyone is not real and they are waiting for a god that does what they want.
In other words, they want to be in charge of their god and have it do what they say. We know they are not going to bow down to that god who may reveal himself eventually because they refuse to do it for the one who has revealed himself.
Of course they are comfortable living their lives that way. They get to make their own rules, make judgments, lie, sin, and do whatever they want because they reject the rules of the God who has revealed himself.
The atheist wants to be master of their own lives even though they are ruled by evil and that goal will never happen.
Many Christians believe that Christianity gives them a one-up morally on the rest of the world.
It goes without saying that we are morally superior to the atheist. Not because we have created our own moral system like the atheist has. But because we are courageous enough to admit that we cannot live morally without Jesus.
We recognize our true state and seek to change our lives through belief in Jesus and following his ways. Some are more successful than others. Those that refuse to do this mock those who can and have.
We also recognize that we cannot create our own moral state. That our human capacity is not great enough to accomplish that goal. We also recognize that we do not have the authority to create great moral codes.
Even those Christians who have tried to create a system they believe is right falls short of what God has created already. We know we cannot do better than God and even if we tried, there would still be people who claim it is wrong, inferior, exclusive, racist, sexist, and so on, then reject that human-created option to design their own.
It takes a lot of courage to live the Christian life and one has to be brave to do it. However, atheists have shown that they have neither characteristic as they cowardly leave the faith or reject it and join the unbelieving world.
They must think there is safety in numbers but they are wrong. They are not safe, it is just an illusion and denying reality only proves they are weak and not brave.
A religion need not be true for people to benefit from it.
While this is a true statement, that does not mean that all religions are false or fake. False religions exist for the same reason atheists exist. To deceive people into thinking they have been enlightened and know the truth.
Without one true religion, no false belief would exist nor would atheists. There would be nothing to reject or avoid nor would there be anything that people would need to be deceived about.
The best way to understand religious belief in general and Christianity in particular is to view both from a sociological and economic perspective.
This is not a true statement for it demands that people ignore all the truths about Christianity and look solely at the faith from a deceived standpoint. The best way to understand Christianity is to examine it with all of its characteristics intact using an open mind.
Evangelicalism is numerically in decline.
This is not news to the Christian. Not only did Jesus tell us this would take place but he also said that people love darkness over light. B. G. and other atheists are not proclaiming some phenomenon here or that they have the truth and are winning the battle against evil.
Christianity is not evil. It is the best thing that could happen to this world. we have a better way to live and treat others, we are not deceived and living a lie and we have promises to hold onto to help us meet the challenges that come with life.
The criticism hurled at Christians by B. G. and other atheists are without merit as they look at things through blind and deceived eyes. They deny the existence of the enemy and the work it does to successfully destroy believers like they were destroyed.
They cannot see the reality of life because they live in a state of denial not a state of illumination. That is why Christ came to earth and why his followers continue to cast that light.
We are not losing, it is just that sinful men do not love God enough to change and be brave enough to live the Christian life. We do not take B. G. seriously as he has said that when he was a preacher and following God, he was quite successful.
Yet, he denied and denies the very evidence for God that took place in his own life. If he was as successful and on fire for God as he claims, then he should be ashamed. He let evil destroy him so that success could not continue.
That is not something to be proud of.
I could write a series of posts on Tee’s lies and half-truths about atheism in general, and the infamous B.G. in particular. I won’t do so, however, because I have covered Tee’s objections to atheism and B.G. before. I might change my mind on this if readers are interested in me doing so. What say ye, dear heathens and false god worshipers?
Thanks, Mr. Tee, for the comedy bit. Keep it up. You are an awesome evangelist for the one true religion — atheism.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
A perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God created a perfect universe 6,023 years ago, inhabited by two perfect humans, Adam and Eve, and a plethora of perfect animals. We know all this because a perfect inspired, inerrant, and infallible religious text compiled over thousands of years says so. These things are true because the Bible says they are true. How do we know that what the Bible says is true? Because the Bible says so . . .
This perfect God also created angels, some of whom were fallen beings, creatures who hated and despised God, creatures whose sworn mission was to overthrow and destroy God’s creation. Have you ever wondered why God created fallen, sinful angels? Me too. If God is this all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful being, why did he create these angels to start with? This question will lurk behind everything I write in this post. If God is whom the Bible says he is, then WHY?
One of these fallen angels was a sexy, redheaded, left-handed being named Lucifer. Lucifer hated God and was determined to destroy Jehovah’s perfect creation. What better way to do so than to tempt Adam and Eve to break the rule God had given them: thou shalt not eat fruit off the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
And the Lord God commanded the man [Adam], saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:Ā But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Lucifer, a fallen archangel — a big shot in Heaven — decided to use a walking, talking snake — either by possessing the snake or using it as a ventriloquist dummy — to tempt earth’s first humans.
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?Ā And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:Ā But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.Ā And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:Ā For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.Ā And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.Ā And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.Ā And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
God is omniscient, so he knew that this would happen. God is omnipotent, so he had the power and ability to keep it from happening. And despite controlling everything, God did what, exactly? God had every choice at his disposal, yet he chose to do nothing. For those who dare to argue that Lucifer, Adam, and Eve had free will, and that’s why things happened the way they did, isn’t God ultimately responsible for everything? Isn’t God sovereign? God could have chosen NOT to create fallen angels or give Adam and Eve free will. God could have chosen not to plant the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the Garden of Eden. God had endless possibilities before him, yet he chose what’s recorded in Genesis 1-3 and the rest of God’s Word, the Bible. Think about this fact for a moment. What does it say about God’s reasoning skills?
Adam and Eve’s choice to eat fruit from a forbidden tree caused all the pain, evil, and suffering we see today. War, famine, and disease all trace back to Adam and Eve. Rape, sexual assault, murder, robbery, lying, and cheating, all Adam and Eve’s fault. Our world and our lives could be radically different if God had gotten up off the couch, shut off the TV, and stopped the events that took place in Genesis 1-3. Instead, he did nothing. Well, we can’t say “nothing” in a literal sense. God has spent the past 6,000+ years “bothered” by what we humans do. He even wrote a bestselling book, the Bible, to express how bothered he was by our “sinful” behavior.
Recently, an Evangelical man by the name of Richard left a comment on the post Dear Jesus. I responded to Richard here. Richard responded to my post via email. Here’s the exchange that took place between us:
Richard:
Richard here again, thank you for your response. I dont like labels, I follow Jesus Christ thats all. In response to you comments (humbly)
There are no low hanging fruits [people more easily persuaded by Christianity], you have to toil for each and every one of them.
Just because there is no answer now does not mean, there will never be. Remember understanding without words?, I think its in Isaiah.
God always sends Richards,Pauls and Peters, (murderers, cowards and fools). They understand forgiveness and restoration.
Maybe God did tell me to write you, maybe time has come for you to return and do what you do best. He is not finished with you. There is a time for everything. God bless you and your family even though you dont believe in himā¦yet. Take care.
Bruce:
If you want to interact with me, please comment on the post. I have no interest in interacting with you privately. You ignored my commenting guidelines. What does that say about you and your faith?
Go away, and find someone else to bother.
Richard:
Dear Bruce,
My apologies for not following your commenting guidelines. It was not intentional. I was using my mobile. Sorry for bothering you and I will not bother you again but I hope this tells you something about my faith, I am able to admit to making mistakes. God bless.
Richard is what I call a God-botherer. My friend Zoe had this to say about Richard:
Sorry to bother you, yet, is he? I don’t think so. The person who is bothered is Richard himself. He’s only following the story about a God who is bothered. And I can’t blame Him. The whole story is quite bothersome.
As always — okay 99.9 percent of the time š — Zoe is right.
The Bible is the written record of all the human behaviors that bother God. In the Old Testament alone, there are 613 God-given laws pertaining to human behavior. Dozens and dozens of laws are added to this list in the New Testament. God is bothered by how people cook, what they eat, and how they grow their crops. God is bothered by how people build their homes, what type of clothing they wear, and how they keep their hair. God is also bothered by how, when, where, and why people have sex. Taking the Bible as a whole, it’s clear that God spends every moment of every day being bothered by human behavior — behavior he created and could have made differently. If God didn’t want LGBTQ people to have sex, he could have changed their DNA in a way that would have eliminated the want, need, and desire to fuck. The same goes for heterosexuals. If God didn’t want humans to commit adultery or fornication, could he not have created them in such a way that they wouldn’t do so? With God, all things are possible, right? I heard countless preachers say that nothing is too hard for God. Were they lying?
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Does nothing include the human behaviors that bother God? Without me [Jesus] you can’t do anything, the man, the myth, and the legend says. Did Jesus mean what he said, or must this verse be properly interpreted?
The Apostle Paul said: I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me (Philippians 4:13). Implication? Without Christ, we can’t do anything. Does that include human behaviors that bother God? Just taking the Word of God literally.
Paul also said: God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth . . . For in him we live, and move, and have our being (Acts 17: 24, 28). According to my Evangelical pastors and professors, it is God who gives us our breath; it is God who gives us the ability to live and move. Without God, we would all instantly die. Everything necessary to live comes from God. Peter said in 2 Peter 1:3 that Jesus [according as his divine power] hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness.ALL things. Doesn’t it stand to reason, then, that every human behavior comes from God; that God is bothered by behaviors he gave us?
If God didn’t want to be bothered by human behavior, he could have created us differently. If anyone is to blame for how things are, God is. Paul, the first Calvinist, says in Romans 9 that God is the potter and we are the clay; that God alone determines who will and won’t be saved. By extension, does this not mean that God is in control of e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g?
Richard, along with his fellow God-botherers, believe the Bible is a supernatural book written by a supernatural God; that its words are straight from God’s mouth to their ears; that every word is to be practiced, enforced, and believed. Thus, whatever bothers God bothers the Richards of the world. One need only pay attention to the current culture wars to see that Evangelicals are bothered by all sorts of human behaviors. And that means if they are bothered, God is bothered. Isn’t it interesting that God is bothered by the same human behaviors as Evangelicals? Canny how the mind of God and the minds of Evangelicals always agree. Why this would almost make you think humans created God and wrote the Bible.
I grew up in the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement. IFB churches and pastors are bothered by just about every human behavior you can think of. Here’s a list of some of the behaviors I heard condemned by IFB preachers (and later condemned myself):
Watching MTV
Watching HBO
Listening to secular radio
Listening to contemporary Christian music
Listening to rock and roll music
listening to country music
Long hair on men
Short skirts on women
Pants on women
Shorts on women
Wearing wire-rimmed glasses
Men having facial hair
Smoking
Drinking alcohol
Going to the movie theater
Voting Democratic
Attending a liberal Christian college
Female preaching
Effeminate male preachers
Effeminate men
Hen-pecked men
Haughty women
Church members who disagree with the pastor
Premarital sex
Extramarital sex
Getting an abortion
Practicing Christmas/Halloween/Easter
Reading any Bible translation but the KJV
Dancing
Card Playing
Attending non-IFB churches
Shall I go on? The list of human behaviors that bother IFB preachers is as vast as the human mind. Every church and every pastor have their own list of human behaviors that bother them. While many Christians call such extremism legalism, isn’t it a matter of degree? Don’t all Christians have at least a mental list of human behaviors that bother them; that they believe are contrary to the Bible’s teachings? Isn’t that what sin is: human behaviors that bother God? And shouldn’t Christians love what God loves and hate what God hates? No shellfish for you, Richard.
Let me conclude this post with a short Disney video that perfectly illustrates the point I am trying to make in this post.
The Bible says that Christians have the mind of Christ [God]. Winnie the Pooh, then, is the God of the Bible, and representative of millions and millions of Evangelical Christians. Oh, bother . . .
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Over the weekend, an Australian Evangelical man by the name of Richard left the following comment on the post titled Dear Jesus. My response is indented and italicized.
I stumbled on to your website and man, I would have lost my faith ten times over!!.
What did you actually read on this site? Did you break anything when you stumbled? The Dear Jesus post primarily deals with the problem of evil and suffering, told from an intimate, personal perspective. If you want to understand my story in its entirety, please read the posts on the WHY? page.
I appreciate your recognition of the fact that I had a difficult and traumatic upbringing. One of your fellow Christian apologists, Mike Kuvakos, took a different approach, choosing instead to tell me, “get over it.”
That said, the primary reasons for my deconversion are intellectual, not emotional. Despite all the trauma mentioned in the Dear Jesus post, I remained a committed follower of Jesus Christian until age fifty. If past trauma was going to derail my faith, this would have happened years ago. Instead, I pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years, leaving the ministry in 2005, and leaving Christianity in 2008.
If asked to give the primary reasons I left Christianity, I typically say:
1) I no longer believed the Bible was inerrant and infallible
2) I no longer believed the central claims of Christianity were true
3) Christianity no longer made sense to me
Secondarily, I concluded that Christianity had no persuasive arguments for:
1) The problem of evil
2) The problem of suffering
3) The hiddenness of God
I lost my faith for many years (for lesser things) suffered violence and poverty, had nothing, lost everything. I was bitter with God for his failures , the hypocrisy of the pastors, the immorality of church leaders, the molesters and the thieves, but now I believe again. He reached out to me and brought me back.
I get it, God/Jesus/Christianity works for you. You find meaning, purpose, and direction in your faith. I, however, find the opposite. My life is better in every way post-Jesus. I have learned that I don’t need God/Jesus/faith to have meaning and purpose in my life. A good life is possible without Jesus. I humbly suggest you give it a try.
You see, we cannot run away, we will eventually go back, there is nothing else in this world that is better than Him, no matter how we see and rationalize the failures.
Running away implies that I am trying to avoid something — I’m not. You seem to think I am wrongly rationalizing what I consider faults and failures within the structure of Christianity. However, I have honestly and opening weighed Christianity in the balance and found it wanting. Do you think it was easy for me to walk away from Christianity; to walk away from the ministry; to walk away from that which I held precious and dear for fifty years? I can tell you this: divorcing Jesus was painful and traumatic — even to this day. Yet, after carefully studying and investigating the central claims of Christianity, I had no choice but to say that I no longer believed. You see, truth matters to me. I couldn’t go on believing things that I knew were lies.
I know he will call you back, you don’t have to go, He will come. As you, you will believe when He comes, I am sure he will. You are a man of truth and God will honour you.
Richard, how do you know your peculiar version of God will call me back to himself? Has God told you this? Or do you just “hope” God will reclaim me? I hope for all sorts of things: the Reds winning the World Series, the Bengals winning the Super Bowl, me winning $1,000,000 in a vax-a-million lotto, my unrelenting pain to miraculously disappear. I can hope for these things to happen, but facts, reason, logic, and probabilities tell me that there is little chance that any of these “hopes” will occur in 2021-2022. I didn’t say “no chance.” Our family has nine entries left in a vax-a-million lotto. Maybe, just maybe, one of us will hear, “winner, winner, chicken dinner.”
I “could” become a Christian again. Perhaps, my conclusions about God, Christianity, and the Bible will be overthrown by overwhelming evidence to the contrary. However, thirteen years in, no Christian has provided such evidence to me, yourself included. Thousands of Christian zealots have tried to win me back to Jesus, without success. Thus, I highly doubt that sufficient evidence is forthcoming, and I am sure I will remain an atheist until I die. And then? I will be a dead atheist. š
Further, I could be a reprobate or an apostate — someone who has crossed the line of no return (Romans 1). Many Christian apologists believe there is no hope for me, that I have a sinful, darkened heart and have done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29). My advice to you is that you focus on low-hanging fruit — people more likely to buy what you are selling. I am not such a person.
It’s possible that you believe that God is letting me wander for a time, and someday he will draw me back to himself. Sure, that’s possible, I suppose. However, I don’t believe God exists. If, by chance, I am wrong, then God, the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit know exactly where I live. This three-headed supernatural Marvel superhero can stop by my house, email me, or send me a text. Why has it not done so? Instead of dealing with me directly, God sends the Richards of the world — thousands of them. Why is that? Why can’t God speak for himself?
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Yesterday, a Christian psychologist named Mike Kuvakos left the following comment on the post Dear Jesus. My response is indented and italicized.
Couple of questions arise. You didn’t mention whether you believe in God, you know, as an entity in himself and if not, why?
I have been writing for this blog iteration since December 2014 — 4,000+ posts (3.5 million words). You read all of two posts before leaving this comment. Had you bothered to click on the WHY? page, you might have learned a bit (okay, a lot) more about me. Instead, you read two posts.
I was in the Christian church for fifty years. I spent twenty-five years pastoring Evangelical churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. So, yes, I believed in God, specifically the Christian deity.
I’m your age and maturity does make you realize in the gifts of plants, trees, miraculous medicines developed from ecology that some kind of supreme being has a hand in the cycles in life. Or do you think these things just happen. I don’t think I could make a donation from that kind of viewpoint.
My age (an objective statement) and maturity (a subjective statement) have led me to far different conclusions about the universe, our planet, and our biological world from yours. I put my “faith” in science, not a fallible, contradictory ancient religious text. I am no scientist, and I didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I trust the explanations for our world given by trained experts in the various scientific fields. In other words, I know what I don’t know. Unfortunately, religion often makes people think they are “experts,” when, in fact, they are not.
Science tells how our world began — no God needed. What happened before the Big Bang no one knows. Asserting that a God who exists outside of time and space created everything is not supported by the current understanding of the universe. Maybe there is some sort of divine creator, but we don’t know. You don’t know, and neither do I. So, we base our understanding of the universe on what evidence we do have. If you have evidence for the claim that your peculiar God created everything, please provide it. Quoting the Bible is not evidence.
Of course, things “just happen.” We are surrounded by randomness. Much of our lives are governed by chance and luck. That said, I suspect you mean something different by “just happen.” Please clarify.
You are a Christian, so you believe that “some kind of supreme being” created everything. One might argue that a deistic God of some sort created everything, but I have yet to see persuasive evidence for the claim that this creator God is the God of the Christian Bible.
As far as donating, please, please, please donate. My family is starving, and I desperately need donations from people who show no interest in my writing. (That’s sarcasm, by the way.) Feel free to donate, or not. Whether you donate will not affect the content of my writing.
Also, I’m interested in reading some of your site’s content (I AM a Christian).
Please read Curiosity, A Missing Evangelical Trait. Reading only two posts tells me that you aren’t really that interested. And I AM an atheist. Not sure why you felt the need to capitalize “am.” Emphasis noted.
The biggest disagreement is that you really don’t provide a reason for your new found disbelief. I assume it’s all-the-above. I’m also a psychologist by trade and can tell you – that’s the dumbest reason in not believing in anything. You’ve had a tough time growing up. Join the list, friend.
Actually, I have provided numerous reasons for why I am an atheist. Again, please read the WHY? page. Seek, and ye shall find.
Newfound disbelief? Uh, I deconverted in November 2008 — almost thirteen years ago. Because of your laziness, you failed to learn anything about me. Had you bothered to investigate, you would never have said that the reason for my deconversion was “all of the above.” Do your homework, and then we will talk.
Thank you for your passive-aggressive comment: “you’ve had a tough time growing up. Join the list, friend.” In other words, “get over it.” Evidently, you missed the class lecture on empathy and understanding. You, my friend, are an asshole.
And as far as the Bengals are concerned, I’ve been a sports psychologist for many years and I can tell you with complete assuredness that there are several teams in sports who purposely lose (until the odds for these athletic teams get odds of 500 to 1 against their winning a Super Bowl in Vegas). Their owners acquire collegiate players who are notorious for willingly selling out their performances to wealthy owners like Robert Kraft of the Patriot’s who can buy off these cheating players and can make big extra money in betting in Las Vegas. You think these multi-million dollar salaries come from fans and TV? Look-up in the stands. You see anyone there totaling the 200-500 million dollar contracts? When they get three or four cornerbacks willing to make it look like they’re slipping and sliding while covering the opposition’s receivers the games are pretty well lost, wouldn’t you say? In the meantime – owners put down money bets you yourself couldn’t imagine. Or do you think that a genius like Joe Namath could really give a guarantee his team would win the Super Bowl years ago. There is a lot more involved in this than I told you but I don’t have the time.
For readers who may not understand what this commenter is saying, he is responding to me saying this in the Dear Jesus post:
“Always silent, Jesus. Why is that?
If you ever want to talk to me, you know where I live. Show up at my door, Jesus, and that will be a miracle I can believe in. Better yet, if you can help the Cincinnati Bengals win their last six games, well, I just might rethink your existence. Not going to happen, I know. The Bengals are going to bungle their way to an 0-16 record.
If you canāt help my football team win a few games, Jesus, what good are you? Itās not like I am asking you to feed the hungry, heal the sick, or put an end to violence and war. That would require you to give a shit, Jesus, and if thereās one thing I have learned over the past sixty-two years, it is this: you donāt give a shit about what happens on earth. We humans are on our own, and thatās fine with me.”
Why Kuvakos decided to educate me about American football, I have no idea. Not that I know anything about the subject, right? Sure glad Kuvakos stopped by to “educate” me.
God-Bless
Ah yes, always the “God bless” benediction.
And here’s mine . . .
A Sinner Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
