Kluver wasn’t the only Evangelical zealot harassing us. A.J. Lively sent Polly and me his peculiar version of the plan of salvation, complete with Bible verses. I curtly responded:
Fuck off, A.J. You think I haven’t heard these Bible verses before?
My response brought more Bible verses from Lively. I replied:
I am not doing to do this with you dude. Want to masturbate? Please do it on my blog. Plenty of people there who will engage you.
Lively then turned his attention to Polly, sending her the same cut-and-paste lists of Bible verses.
I replied:
You are a fucking asshole. Now you go after my wife?
Lively responded thusly:
Do you not love your wife enough to want her to go to Heaven?
OMG, how do I even respond to such nonsense? There is no God, there is no Satan, there is no Heaven, and there is no Hell, so Lively’s Bible verse recitations carry no weight with us. Lively assumes that we will bow under the power and authority of the mighty inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God and submit ourselves to Jesus. He refuses to acknowledge that we have “been there, done that.” We reject the central claims of Christianity. We reject the notion that we are sinners in need of salvation. Lively knows these things, yet chooses to harass us anyway.
I long ago concluded that the Kluvers and Livelys of the world have a pathological need to hear themselves talk; that they doubt their own beliefs, and use harassing unbelievers on the Internet as a way to cover up their own questions, fears, and doubts. What better way to soothe your doubts than by trying to evangelize an Evangelical-pastor-turned-atheist and his wife? I can safely say that Lively hasn’t won a single unbeliever to Jesus using this approach — especially not someone like Polly or me. If Lively wants to reach us with his brand of magic, he’s going to have to pull a different rabbit out of his hat. The Bible–verse-Wabbit just ain’t going to cut it.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Progressive Christians are fond of saying, “God is LOVE” — cue summer of love pop song. Finding the Old Testament God of judgment and wrath distasteful or offensive to their sensibilities, Progressive Christians excise the “bad” God from the Bible, choosing instead to focus on Jesus, the God of love. While I understand why Progressive Christians take this approach, it does do great violence to the teachings of the Bible and what Christians have historically believed about God. American Christianity is going through seismic changes and transformation. Beliefs once held dear by Christians are either revised or abandoned altogether. This is especially true with how Christians visualize God.
I wish every Christian held progressive beliefs and values. However, that doesn’t mean I find progressive hermenuetics and interpretations intellectually satisfying. While progressive beliefs make for a kinder, gentler world (and maybe that’s all that should matter), the Bible seems to be the odd man out. While Progressive Christians generally believe in the centrality of Jesus and his gospel, they are often sketchy on the details. Wanting to distance themselves from Evangelicalism, Progressive Christians jettison vast swaths of the Bible. No need to believe those things, Progressive Christians say. God is Love!
How do Progressive Christians know anything about Jesus or whether God is, in fact, love? What evidence do they have for these claims? Don’t they have to appeal to the Bible, much like their Evangelical brothers and sisters? Christianity is inherently a text-based religion. I have long argued: no Bible, no Christianity (not in any meaningful sense, anyway). If the Bible tells us that God is Love, should we not also accept what else it says about God?
Richard Dawkins had this to say about the God of the Old Testament:
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
THAT God is in the Bible too. Why do Progressive Christians ignore this God? His works are found throughout the Bible, including the New Testament. As we do with each other, we must accept God’s goodness and badness — the sum of his nature and character. None of us is pure goodness. All of us can do bad things. All of us can be assholes. We are neither as good nor as bad as we think we are. We are . . . as God is . . . human.
Most Christians believe God created everything. As Creator, God is in control of his creation. He gives life, takes life, and nothing happens apart from his purpose and plan. And if God is not in charge, who is? If the creator doesn’t control his creation, who does?
If God is Creator and the Bible is an accurate account of God’s works and character, can we not know his future plans for the human race? Press the “God is Love” crowd with questions about the future, and few answers are given. I have often wondered if Progressive Christians are, at heart, universalists; that, in the end, everyone makes it to Heaven. While such a belief is appealing, one must ignore much of the Bible to reach such a conclusion.
Both the Old Testament and New Testament teach that there is coming a day when God will judge the living and the dead; that God will separate the saved from the lost; that only those who worshiped Jesus will spend eternity in Heaven (Eternal Kingdom of God). Those who didn’t worship Jesus — whatever the reason — will spend eternity in Hell (Lake of Fire).
If the Bible is an accurate record of the character and nature of God, then it is clear that those who are not Christians will one day face his judgment and wrath. On that day, the God of Love will be nowhere to be found. I know Progressive Christians want to believe otherwise, but as long as they appeal to the Bible for their beliefs, they must accept that their God of Love is also one mean son-of-a-bitch.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Over the weekend, I received the following comment on the post, Dear Jesus. My response is indented and italicized.
Jesus Christ lives and loves. My faith in His existence does not rest in “proof,” but if yours does, then I urge you to look at all the miracles and science that clearly attest to the reality of God and the Son.
How do you “know” Jesus lives and loves? Outside of the pages of an ancient religious text written by mostly unknown authors, how do you know anything about the life of Jesus? All of the books of the New Testament were written decades after the death of Jesus. The Gospel of John was written 60-90 years after the death of Christ. The writings of Paul were written by a man who never saw Jesus face-to-face, who seemingly knew very little about the life of Jesus. Thus, your claims about Jesus are mere conjecture, based on faith or unfounded claims made in the Bible or by preachers on Sundays.
Outside of the Bible, there’s no evidence that Jesus ever worked a miracle. Just because the Bible says he did, doesn’t make it so. Besides, if your God is such a miracle-working deity, why are there no miracles today? And before you claim otherwise, things you can’t explain don’t equal “it’s a miracle” or “God did it.”
Science “proves” what, exactly, about your peculiar version of God and Jesus, the second person in the Christian Trinity? I know of no evidence for such claims. In fact, the Bible says in Hebrews that believing God created the universe requires faith, not scientific evidence. I thought you were a Bible believer!
I’m sorry that the church has broken people and I am sorry that you were hurt by your experience with Christianity. Unfortunately, this happens to too many people because humans are imperfect. The church is imperfect. But that’s the entire point of Christianity: we are imperfect and need Jesus, who died to forgive us for our imperfections.
One thing I learned after leaving Christianity is that Christians are no different from the unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines of the world. People do good and bad things, regardless of what box they check on a religion survey. I pastored thousands of Christians over the twenty-five years I spent in the ministry. I privately listened to their secrets, to their confessions of dark, evil “sins.” I was in the Christian church for fifty years. I spent most of my adult life devotedly following Jesus Christ. I sacrificed my life, family, and economic well-being for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I was by any objective standard a True Christian®, one who had been born from above. Yet, I had plenty of secret “sins,” things I was ashamed of, behaviors that I prayed away Sunday after Sunday, only to do them over and over again. I may have been a “man of God,” but behind closed doors, I was every bit as sinful as my unbelieving neighbors.
If Christians are, as you suggest, imperfect, why bother with Christianity? If God living inside you as your teacher and guide doesn’t lead to a better life, why bother? It seems to me that the only selling point for Christianity is that, as the Bible says, Jesus makes you a new person, old things pass away, and all things become new. (Evidently, that verse is not in your Bible.)
Why do you refuse to use the word “sin?” Sin isn’t human imperfection. According to the Bible, Sin is a fatal disease, cancer that eats away at every human.
I did not leave Christianity because people hurt me. Had you bothered to read my biographical writing, you would have learned that I left Christianity for primarily intellectual reasons. Once I concluded that the Bible was not the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God, I was then free to re-investigate the central claims of Christianity. My faith did not survive my intense, painful — often prayerful — intellectual inquiries.
Let me encourage you to read several of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books. Ehrman is a New Testament scholar at the University of North Carolina. After you have read his books, touch base with me and let me know what you have learned about the history and nature of the Bible. I would love to have a conversation with you about the Bible and the claims of Christianity, but only after you have done your homework.
I don’t care much of anything except this one thing: I beg you to open your heart one more time to accepting a relationship with Jesus Christ. His love is perfect and it cannot be earned by any of us, but it is freely given if you just tell Him you accept it.
Come on, be honest. You care about all sorts of things. We all do. The only difference between you and me is that you care about Jesus, and I don’t.
You make all sorts of bald assertions, without evidence. Even if Jesus is alive, sitting at the right hand of the Father, how do you know he is ready and willing to give me his “love?” Perhaps I am an apostate, or I have committed the unpardonable sin. Or, maybe, just maybe, I am still a Christian — once saved, always saved. Or, maybe the Calvinists are right, and I can’t be saved, that I am not one of the elect. So many plans of salvation. Which one is right? Wait, I know! Yours.
Heaven and hell are so very real. The war is daily. God will win. The devil is real and he is always at work, too. I rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus Christ and urge you to, as well. Please stand guard. I am willing to talk to you if you want. The day of revelation is coming and I want you to be in heaven with us. Jesus Christ loves you dearly and His heart is breaking that you don’t believe that.
Have you ever seen Heaven or Hell? If not, how do you know they are real? Have you read the Harry Potter books? Do you believe Hogwarts is a real school? Of course not. The books are works of fiction. Why can you not see that the Bible is also a fictional book, that there is no evidence for the existence of Heaven, Hell, God, or Satan?
Why would I want to talk to you? Think about it. You had the opportunity to read my biographical writing, learning why I am no longer a Christian, yet you lazily chose not to. If you had done your homework, you would have never left this comment.
Why would I want to be in Heaven with you? Think about this too. What in your comments and others I have received from Christian apologists and evangelizers would cause me to want to spend eternity hanging out with people who think worshiping and praising a narcissistic God is their idea of “fun”? No thanks. I will take Hell every time: much better crowd, fantastic BBQ, and an awesome bar. Besides, Hitchens, Hawking, and Gandhi will be there. Sweet, right?
What a pathetic deity, this Jesus of yours. He sits around Heaven, pining over those who refuse to let him save them. He has a broken heart over their unwillingness to buy what his spokespeople on earth are peddling. Let me give the dead Jesus some advice: choose better spokespeople. Better yet, Jesus knows where I live. He knows my email address and my cellphone number. If Jesus wants to heal his broken heart and have an intimate relationship with me, he knows how to get a hold of me. I won’t hold my breath.
Bruce Gerencser, a Sinner Saved by Reason
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I received the following e-mail over the weekend from a person using the MooninLibra91 moniker. My response is indented and italicized.
I don’t understand what you get from turning your back on Jesus . . .
It is evident that you have never thought about this question, so let me educate you.
First, Jesus is a dead man, so there is no “Jesus” to turn my back on. You “assume” that Jesus is God and what the Bible says about him is true. I reject those claims, and I have been waiting thirteen years for a Christian to provide evidence for such claims instead of just asserting them. Assumptions are not facts. Do you have any evidence for your beliefs outside of the Bible and “faith?”
Second, the biggest thing I gained when I walked away from Christianity was freedom: intellectually, morally, and ethically. No longer bound by the arcane, anti-human, and, at times, evil teachings of the Bible (and by extension, God), I now have the freedom to determine how I want to live my life. I have the freedom to determine a moral and ethical framework for my life (which is humanism and socialism).
Third, I also gained time — lots of it. I can sleep in on Sundays, not read the Bible, and not pray. I no longer have to spend an inordinate amount of time thinking, “what would Jesus do?”
Fourth, I gained a deep appreciation for the present, for the here-and-now, for the finiteness of this life. Instead of life being offloaded to an afterlife no one knows exists, my focus is on what is most precious to me: my next breath, my wife of forty-two years, my six children and their spouses, and my thirteen grandchildren.
On the About page, I give the following advice:
“You have one life. There is no heaven or hell. There is no afterlife. You have one life, it’s yours, and what you do with it is what matters most. Love and forgive those who matter to you and ignore those who add nothing to your life. Life is too short to spend time trying to make nice with those who will never make nice with you. Determine who are the people in your life that matter and give your time and devotion to them. Live each and every day to its fullest. You never know when death might come calling. Don’t waste time trying to be a jack of all trades, master of none. Find one or two things you like to do and do them well. Too many people spend way too much time doing things they will never be good at.
Here’s the conclusion of the matter. It’s your life, and you best get to living it. Someday, sooner than you think, it will be over. Don’t let your dying days be ones of regret over what might have been.”
but I pray that He never leaves you and guards you while your mind is clouded.
As I mentioned above, Jesus is dead, so he left stage left 2,000 years ago and ain’t coming back. My parents have been dead for decades, and they aren’t coming back either. That said, I have memories of them that will live on until I die. I also have photographs and movies. I have real, tangible evidence for their existence. Can you provide the same evidence for Jesus? Pictures, perhaps? A movie shot by Peter, James, or John, or Jesus’s wife? Or, how about a book or two written by Jesus F. Christ? Nothing? Am I just supposed to take your word for it or faith-it?
You make so many damn judgments about me. Based on your religious beliefs, you assume that I have a “clouded” mind, that I am not thinking or seeing clearly. Would it make a difference to you if I told you that I have never seen things more clearly, that my mind, “clouded” by two decades of chronic pain and illness, is still sharp? Of course not. You think you have me all figured out.
Let me give you some Biblical advice from Proverbs 18:13: He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. (KJV)
I love how the Message renders this verse: Answering before listening is both stupid and rude.
You are a preacher, so you must battle with demons who are of some higher rank. I pray that they leave you alone, in the name of Jesus. And that the Holy Ghost removes the scales from your eyes. I pray for your health, and above all, for your salvation.
Yes, I am still a preacher, but I am no longer a Christian preacher. I now preach atheism, humanism, socialism, wild sex, and Cincinnati Reds baseball.
I am an atheist. I don’t believe the Christian deity exists, and neither do I believe in the existence of Satan and his minions. Do you have any evidence for your claim about demons — outside of the Bible and the nonsense you have heard preachers spout at church?
Your email, however, has challenged my thinking about demons. I receive numerous emails and comments from Evangelical Christians, conservative Catholics, and Mormons. It is this group of “demons” who refuse to leave me alone.
If I am as spiritually oppressed as you allege, why not just pray for me? Surely, your prayers, and that of thousands of Christians who have told me they were praying for me (most of them liars), would be enough to win me back to Jesus, right? If prayer is as powerful as you and other God-botherers think it is, why not just pray without ceasing for me, storming the throne room of Heaven on my behalf? Besides, how much time have you really spent praying for me? Talk is cheap, MooninLibra. Or is “I am praying for you” just shit Christians say when they don’t have anything meaningful to say?
Holy Spirit? No God, no Satan, and no Holy Spirit either. Your email to me proves there is no Holy Spirit, or at the very least, you are not listening to it. An all-wise third person in the Godhead would have told you that emailing me is a waste of time; that Bruce Gerencser knows everything he needs to know about God, Jesus, the Bible, and Christian salvation. Had you been listening to the Holy Spirit’s still, small voice, it might have told you that I am apostate or a reprobate and that I have crossed the line of no return. Instead, you did what I call an act of public masturbation. Your email wasn’t about reaching me with “truth.” It was all about feeling good and hearing yourself talk. Congratulations, mission accomplished. Please put your clothes back on.
Imagine how sad He is to lose you.
*sigh* I thought Jesus saves everyone he intends to save, and that once a person is saved, he can never perish. I thought the Bible teaches election and predestination and God determined my eternal destiny before be created the universe. Or maybe, the Calvinists are wrong, and the Arminians are right. My eternal destiny rests in my hands — well, unless I have committed the unpardonable sin. Or maybe, just maybe, God is a universalist, and everyone makes it to Heaven in the end. So many plans of salvation are taught in the Good Book. Which peculiar interpretation is right? Oh, I know, yours!
If I could, I’d give you my spot in the Kingdom of God.
I have received thousands and thousands of emails and comments from Christian apologists and evangelizers since 2007. This is probably the most disingenuous thing any of them have EVER said. You wouldn’t give me your spot in the Kingdom of God, even if you could. Be honest, MooninLibra. YOU are really going to spend eternity being tortured by God in the Lake of Fire just so I can eternally picnic along the banks of the River of Life? You might be a nice, loving, caring person, but you are not trading your room at God’s Mar-a-Lago for a room at Satan’s Motel Six. NO Christian ever has practiced such disinterested self-love. In fact, most Christians are quite narcissistic, concerned with their own salvation and eternal destiny. Sure, some of them take time now and again to try to sell lies and false hope to people who have no interest in what they are selling. But most of their time is focused on self, on making sure they have checked off all the right boxes so they make it to Heaven (the eternal Kingdom of God) when they die.
Thank you for emailing me. I hope you will think twice before contacting strangers and giving them unsolicited advice or trying to put in a good word for a dead man named Jesus.
Bruce Gerencser, a Sinner Saved by Reason
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
What follows is my response to your recent comment on this site. My response is indented and italicized.
Christian means Christ Like.
I assume you are an Evangelical Christian or what is commonly called a Biblical Christian. I assume you also believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God.
The word Christian is mentioned three times in the New Testament: Acts 26:28, 1 Peter 4:16, and Acts 11:26. The Greek word for Christian (s) is Christianos, which means a follower of Christ, not Christ-like, as you allege. A Christian, then, is one who follows Jesus, not one who is like him. If, as Evangelicals believe, Jesus is God, is it not impossible for any Christian to be Christ-like? Further, one need only observe how Christians behave to know that if Christ is the standard for saving faith, no one is a Christian.
We are all anything but that. To strive to be Christ like means to lay aside our own foolish pride. Set aside our own differences. We are alike in that we all want to go to the heaven we have all heard of.
Are you not being prideful when you say that you have something that I don’t have, that Christians are headed for Heaven, while Bruce Gerencser, atheists, agnostics, and other unbelievers are headed for Hell?
You assume that I want to go to Heaven. Why would I want to spend eternity in a place overrun with smug, arrogant, self-righteous people who spent their lives on Earth causing division and harm? You say we should set aside our differences, but you really mean that everyone should believe in Jesus as you do. The goal, is it not, is conversion, rather than understanding and mutual agreement?
Going against the word of God is like pushing the tides of the ocean; futile.
This is only true IF one believes the Bible is a supernatural book. I don’t. I once believed as you do. However, once the Bible lost its authority, power, and control over me, I was then free to determine what my beliefs really were and how I wanted to live my life.
We need to focus on the things at hand. I do not wish ill of any person, but neither am I likely to follow just anyone.
The problem, Matt, is that you think your life and experiences are the measures of what should be the “focus on the things at hand.” In your mind, Jesus is the end-all, all that matters. However, I am an atheist. Jesus is a man who died 2,000 years ago, end of story. I categorically reject the claims Christians and their Bible make for Jesus.
I daily struggle with serious health problems. I can safely say that I am dying, that sooner rather than later, I will be no more. It is certainly possible that I could live for years, but I doubt it. My body tells me that I am running out of time. Believing this to be true, I choose to focus on what matters to me: my wife of 42 years, my six grown children and their spouses, my thirteen grandchildren, writing, traveling, and watching/listening to the Cincinnati Reds. I have no time for God, Jesus, Christianity, the Bible, or God-botherers. The only reason I am answering your comment is that I hope my answer will be instructive or helpful to readers of this blog.
I believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I believe that he died and was raised from death on the third day. Not only because of my faith but also logic. Romans had every chance to debunk this as they searched high and low for the man that miraculously disappeared. Pontius Pilate had every reason to find the man that he never could. The most powerful man in the region was in dire straights trying find Jesus after his death, but never could even at the amount of men at his disposal searching.
What evidence do you have for these claims? I have ready EVERY historical reference for Jesus, and not one of them mentions these things. The Romans didn’t have to look for Jesus. They knew exactly where he was — in a tomb. You have no direct historical evidence for the empty tomb. The gospels were written decades after the death of Jesus by unknown authors. At best, these authors wrote down oral stories that had been passed down. At worst, they made shit up. How do you know which is true?
You claim Jesus resurrected from the dead. You think Jesus’ empty tomb is proof that he resurrected from the dead. However, there are other explanations, one that is even mentioned in the Bible. Perhaps, Jesus’ followers removed his body from his tomb and buried it somewhere else. Or perhaps the Romans did. Are not both of these possibilities more likely than Jesus magically resurrecting from the dead? All the available evidence tells us that dead people stay dead. Claiming that a book says a dead man resurrected from the dead doesn’t work for me. You will have to provide better evidence if you want me to believe that Jesus is still alive. How about Jesus making a personal appearance — anywhere? It’s been 2,000 years since anyone has seen Jesus. I think we can safely assume that he is dead and he ain’t coming to the family picnic.
I do not try to hate nor do I try to condemn. it is not my place to say where each one will go at the end of his time. I can say though that Jesus dealt with love not with hate. He loved the prostitute as much as the disciple, and was seen cleaning the feet from the apostles. He was a servant not acting as a worldly king, but as a divine king of the most high.
Matt, please be honest. You are a “Bible-believer.” You believe the words of the Bible came straight from the mouth of God. Thus, you know exactly where I am going when I die, right? Don’t hem and haw, own your abhorrent theology. Quit trying to paint yourself in a good light. You think anyone who doesn’t believe as you do will go to Hell when they die; that they will face eternal punishment for their sins. If I told you I was going to torture my children every day of their lives, all because they believe differently from me, would you consider me a good father? Of course not. In fact, you would call law enforcement and report me for criminal behavior. Yet, your God daily tortures billions of people and plans to torture billions more after they die. Pray tell, what kind of Father is your God? Why would anyone want to worship such an abominable deity?
It is so easy being among others saying that you do not believe. However in the dark of night being alone, how confident are you of your own mortality?
Are you not in the majority — those who believe in the existence of God? It is easy to believe in God, especially in the United States. Nothing is required of you. Your faith costs you nothing except an hour or two on Sundays and the shekels you toss in the offering plate.
People gather at sites like this because they are part of a small, often marginalized community. Try walking in atheists’ shoes before suggesting that in the still of the night we believe differently from what we do in the day. Besides, even if what you say is true, do not Christians do the same? What do Christians ponder in the dark of night? Where’s God? Why is God silent? Why, why, why? Existential questions are part of the fabric of human existence.
We all contemplate those times when by ourselves we wonder what will happen. If you feel that going into the abyss of darkness at the end of your life then what are you living for? IF there is no rhyme or reason to life then what is the purpose?
I don’t wonder about what will happen. I am sixty-three years old. I am sick, broken down, and nearing the end of life. I know EXACTLY what awaits me: death and nothingness.
You seem to suggest that non-Christians should kill themselves because they have nothing to live for. In your mind, this life is just preparation for the life to come. Perhaps you should ask yourself what YOU are living for? A mansion in Heaven? Deliverance from sin? Separation from unbelievers? Day and night worship of God? Is this what your life has been reduced to?
I have much to live for: my beautiful wife, my wonderful children, my awesome grandchildren, finishing my train layout, planting new trees/bushes, traveling to new places, eating good food, watching the Reds and Bengals, writing for this blog, finishing my book, finally publishing my first podcast, and most of all, having bowel movements that are not constipation or diarrhea. Not throwing up would be nice, too, as would making it to the bathroom without embarrassing myself.
God wants to hear from you, and wants you not to rely on yourself but Him.
If God wants to hear from me, he knows where I live. He also has my email address and cellphone number.
Question? Why did you leave this comment? To quote Astreja, “If your god wants to hear from us, mortal, then it bloody well needs to come talk to us in person instead of sending human messenger boys like you.”
Remember that being a Christian is not going to be easy, nor is it going to be without sacrifice. We all give up something to gain something more. We have to keep moving forward and keep his commandments. Loving one another is the greatest of all commandments.
Have you read my story? If you have, you know I sacrificed everything for Jesus for most of my adult life. I now know that I sacrificed my life, marriage, children, economic well-being, and health for a lie. I have lived life on both sides of this discussion. I can tell you that I am happy with where I am today — pain and suffering aside. Why would I ever want to return to the garlic and leeks of Christianity? Why would I ever want to return to the chains of bondage? No thanks. You have nothing to offer me, Matt. I am not sure what you hoped to gain by leaving this comment, other than hearing yourself talk or putting a good word in for Jesus. What possibly could you say that I have not heard (or preached) countless times before? How did you fail to understand that people like me are not prospects for Heaven, that we have no interest in what you are peddling? Yet, you commented anyway.
We live by example, we show others the way to live and love not hate. Nobody in the Bible is without sin other than Jesus. Even when we stumble he is there to pick us up. We have only to ask. Knock and the door will be opened.
Ask yourself, Matt, what example have you left for the people who will read this post? What in your behavior emulates Jesus and makes Christianity appealing to unbelievers? Can you not see that your comment comes off as little more than an Evangelical Christian masturbating in public? Your comment might have made you feel good, but all it did for me and the readers of this blog — people who know the Bible inside out, many of whom were pastors, missionaries, evangelists, and fervent believers — is remind us that Evangelical Christians are narcissists who just love to hear themselves talk. Your comment comes off as a sermon, not an honest interaction with a former follower of Jesus.
Bruce, a sinner SAVED by Reason
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I am often accused of lumping all Christians together.
I’m not like those nasty, hateful, judgmental Christians who comment on your blog, says the Good Christian.
Fair enough.
But, let me ask one question.
When I die, will I go to Heaven or Hell?
Well, that’s up to . . . stop it.
When I die, will I go to Heaven or Hell?
I reject your God, Jesus, salvation, and Bible.
I reject the notion that Jesus was God, was crucified, and resurrected from the dead three days later.
With my whole heart, I reject every teaching that is central to what it means to be Christian.
I reject the Christian concept of sin. I have no need of atonement, redemption, or salvation.
So, I ask again, When I die, will I go to Heaven or Hell?
How you answer this question determines what kind of Christian you are.
The Phelps clan, with all the viciousness of a starving rabid dog, screams that I will go straight to Hell when I die and I will be tortured by God in a place where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched.
How about you, Christian friend? What say ye? When I die, will I go to Heaven or Hell?
You can be the nicest person in the world, but if you believe that non-Christians go to Hell when they die, you are not really any different from the Phelps clan.
If you answer my question with the word Hell, then you are just like those nasty, hateful Christians you say are “bad” Christians. You may wear fashion designer clothes, smell great, and have the best smile money can buy, but if your answer to my question is “Hell,” then you are no different from the trailer park trash Christians you say aren’t part of your family.
Virtually every Christian sect believes that eternal punishment awaits atheists. I am an atheist, proudly so. I ask you, again, When I die, will I go to Heaven or Hell?
Your answer tells me all I need to know.
It really is that simple.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Several times a month, I get emails from Evangelicals who want to let me know that they are not like “other” Evangelicals. They want me to know that there are Evangelicals who are nice, polite, decent, kind, and respectful people. That’s great, their mothers taught them well. However, these “nice” Evangelicals aren’t really as nice as they would have me believe. They desperately want to be viewed in a good light, thinking if I just knew that there are “nice” Evangelicals, I would fall on my knees and call to Jesus to save me. As if my entire deconversion hangs on how I was treated while I was an Evangelical pastor.
When I am feeling up to it, I respond to the “nice” Evangelical’s email with a few questions. Questions like:
Do you believe that humans are inherently “sinful”; that humans are broken and in need of fixing?
Do you think believing in Jesus is the only way for people to have their sins forgiven?
Do you believe there is one true God, and that all other deities are false?
Do you believe the Bible is an inspired, inerrant, infallible text?
Do you believe that a person must be saved/born again/become a follower of Jesus to go to Heaven when he dies?
Do you believe that a person who is not saved/born again/a follower of Jesus goes to Hell when he dies?
The answers to these questions will quickly reveal that the “nice” Evangelical is no different from Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, Steven Anderson, Jack Hyles, Jack Schaap, Bob Gray, Sr., Bryan Fischer, James Dobson, or Franklin Graham. The “nice” Evangelical and the nasty/hateful Evangelical, both share the same beliefs. The former comes in a nicer, more pleasing package, but inside the package are the same abhorrent, vile beliefs.
Sometimes, a “nice” Evangelical will be coy about his beliefs. When pressed on the question of God torturing non-Christians in Hell/Lake of Fire for eternity, he often replies that he leaves such things up to God. A “nice” Evangelical want me to know that he doesn’t judge, he just unconditionally l-o-v-e-s others. However, if he believes the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, then he already knows what God says on the matter. Fact: non-Christians will go to Hell when they die. Fact: atheists, agnostics, secularists, and humanists will go to Hell when they die. Fact: most of the readers of this blog will go to Hell when they die. Fact: most of my Facebook friends will go to Hell when they die. Fact: most of my Twitter followers will go to Hell when they die. Fact: and, to make it quite personal, Bruce and Polly Gerencser and most of their children will go to Hell when they die.
The “nice” Evangelical, if he is truly a Bible-believing, Jesus-loving Evangelical, is boxed in by his beliefs. There is one God — the Christian God; one way of salvation — Jesus; and Hell awaits all of those who reject him. This is why I respect someone like the late Fred Phelps more than I do a “nice” Evangelical. Phelps just tells non-Christians how it is. He makes no effort to hide his beliefs. The forwardness of such Evangelicals allows me to know exactly where I stand with them. No need for us to play the pretend-friend game or make nice with each other.
Sometimes, “nice” Evangelicals will take a psychological approach. They view me as one who has been wounded by the nasty, hateful, judgmental Evangelicals. They read a few of my blog posts and determine that I have been hurt in some way, and that this is the reason I am not a Christian. In their minds, they think if they are just really, really, really nice to me that I will be overwhelmed by their niceness and fall in love with Jesus all over again. Since “nice” Evangelicals think Jesus is w-o-n-d-e-r-f-u-l, they can’t imagine someone NOT wanting to become a follower of Awesome Jesus. A “nice” Evangelical sees Jesus patiently knocking on the door of my heart, pleading for me to let him in. Isn’t this the same Jesus who says that if I DON’T open the door, he is going to torture me for eternity in a lake that burns with fire and brimstone, a place where the worm dieth not? Isn’t this the same Jesus who will fit me with a special body after death so that no matter how severely he tortures me I can never die?
While there is certainly a truckload of harm and hurt in my Evangelical past, the reason I am not a Christian is because I do not believe the central claims of Christianity to be true. I don’t believe the Bible is an inspired, inerrant text. I don’t believe Jesus was God, virgin-born, a miracle worker, or resurrected from the dead. I don’t believe God created the world, nor do I believe in “sin.” Simply put, I reject everything one must believe to be a Christian. No matter how “nice” an Evangelical is to me, I do not buy what he is selling. Salvation requires faith, a faith I do not and will not have.
Look, I am glad that many Evangelicals are nice people. I am glad they treat me and others like me with kindness, decency, and respect. Their behavior certainly makes the world a better place. That said, I suspect their behavior is a reflection of their tribal training and culture more than it is their Evangelical beliefs. I am glad someone taught them to be decent, thoughtful people. I do, however, wish they would stop wasting their time by trying to “nice” me to Jesus. I have no interest in Jesus, and I think their time would be better spent teaching Evangelicals how to behave in public. As blog comments, news articles, blogs, social media, and personal emails show, there are a lot of Evangelicals who don’t the first thing about the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. Instead of trying to save people who don’t want to be saved, “nice” Evangelicals should spend their time getting fellow Evangelicals saved.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Oh, preachers preach about it. Life is short, Hell is real, or so they say. But I am not sure they really believe what they are saying.
Baptists are noted for being hellfire and brimstone preachers. In my Baptist preacher days, I preached hundreds of sermons on Hell. The altar was often lined with sinners fearing Hell. I was a very, very good Hell preacher.
Everyone knows that someday they will die. Many people fear what happens after death. It is the fear of the unknown that leads many people towards religion. Hellfire-and-brimstone preaching is good for the church business. If people fear Hell, they are more likely to buy into the salvation/Heaven scenario. You don’t want to go to Hell, do you? You don’t want to burn in the flames of Hell forever, do you? Scare people right into Heaven, that’s the essence of the gospel preached by many Evangelicals.
I have come to the conclusion that most preachers really don’t believe in Hell. Preach as they might about Hell, when it comes time to put their theology into practice, they cower and refuse to proclaim their Hell belief.
Let me tell you a story about a man named Bob. (Bob is a pseudonym, but all the details that follow are real.) Bob was raised in a Fundamentalist Baptist home. His parents were stern, devout, Christians who helped start several local Baptist churches.
At the age of 17, Bob attended a revival meeting at the local Baptist church. When the invitation was given, Bob walked down the aisle, knelt at the altar, prayed the sinner’s prayer, and at that moment became a born-again Christian.
A short time after his conversion, Bob had a falling-out with his family and moved out of his parents’ home. Bob never attended church another day in his life apart from an occasional funeral or wedding.
Bob lived to be 83 years old. From the time Bob was 17 until he died, he lived a life of sin and infamy. Bob was a child abuser. Bob beat his wife. Bob was a drunk. No woman was safe from Bob’s leering eye and his groping hands.
Bob was a nasty, vulgar kind of drunk.
Bob raped a woman while her 12-year-old son was home from school sick. He was never prosecuted because his victim was a mentally troubled family member.
Bob died recently.
Bob’s funeral was held at the same Baptist church he once attended. His family still attends the church. The funeral was the first time that Bob had been to church in over 60 years.
The preacher mentioned what an ornery man Bob was. And then the preacher spent the next 20 minutes preaching AT Bob’s friends. The funeral service was not about Bob at all, it was all about Jesus. Maybe that was better because it was probably hard to find much good to say about Bob.
Mercifully, the preacher brought his Jesus talk to a close with an invitation to trust Jesus as savior.
Why? So they too could be in Heaven someday with Bob. The Bob, who at age 17 walked down the aisle, knelt at the altar, prayed the sinner’s prayer, and became a Christian.
Shocking?
Hardly.
I have attended dozens of funerals over the years. I have preached a good number of funeral sermons myself. In every case, the deceased was preached into Heaven. No matter how the person lived, no matter what they did, heaven was their final destination.
Baptists are known for believing in what is commonly called “once saved, always saved.” While I no longer claim to be a professing Christian, and I am quite vocal about my atheism, according to many Christians, I can’t get “unsaved.” Once saved, always saved (also called eternal security or the preservation of the saints). God has me whether I want him or not.
According to the preacher at First Baptist, Bob is safe in the arms of Jesus. Pity all the women he raped, abused, and molested over the years. Pity all those he terrorized when he was drunk. The fire insurance Bob bought at age 17 covered everything he would ever do. This gave him immunity from prosecution for all his debauchery.
It matters not that he did not attend church in the past 60 years. He never prayed; never read the Bible. In fact, he cursed God, hated God, and lived as if there is no God.
But, at age 17 . . . well, you get the gist of the story.
It is time to be honest, preachers. Hell doesn’t really exist, does it? For all your hellfire and brimstone preaching, when it comes right down to it everyone makes it in. Anyone who EVER had a momentary religious experience is safe.
Preachers, if you object to what I have written, why not tell the truth about the Bobs of the world? If your God be true and every man a liar, if your Bible is true, then people like Bob are burning in Hell. It seems you can quite easily tell wonderful stories about people going to Heaven, why not the opposite?
Personally, I do not believe in Hell. If there is any hell at all, it is here and now. But, if you claim to believe the Bible is the Word of God, then speak as if you do. Don’t pollute God’s Heaven by sending any more Bobs there.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
This is the latest installment in The Voices of Atheism series. This is a series that I would like readers to help me with. Know of a good video that espouses atheism/agnosticism or challenges the claims of the Abrahamic religions? Please email me the name of the video or a link to it. I believe this series will be an excellent addition to The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Today’s video features a Freethought Matters interview of agnostic Dr. Bart Ehrman about his latest book Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife. Enjoy!
Repost from 2015. Edited, rewritten, and corrected.
I often write about the extreme right of Evangelicalism, the end of the Evangelical spectrum inhabited by churches and sects that nice, friendly Evangelicals like to call Fundamentalist nut jobs. However, as I clearly show in my post titled Are Evangelicals Fundamentalists?, ALL Evangelicals are Fundamentalists. Evangelical belief requires theological fundamentalism, a core set of beliefs that one must adhere to be a Christian and considered an Evangelical in good standing. Some who deny this fact are really liberal/progressive Christians living in denial. Raised in the Evangelical church and familiar with its worship and practice, these liberal/progressive Christians don’t want to abandon the only church they have ever known. Their theology puts them squarely outside of Evangelicalism, yet they refuse to accept this, digging their heels in when attempts are made to drag them into the liberal/progressive church. There’s not much anyone can do for these folks. In time, the keepers of Evangelical truth will expose and embarrass them and they will be forced to leave. For now, they play pretend Evangelical.
There’s another subset within Evangelicalism that thinks they are what I call a nicer, friendlier version of Evangelicalism. They are convinced that legalism, rules, moralizing, and the like are the problem, so they attempt to advertise their churches as places that are judgment free; places where sinners can come to find healing and deliverance. However, these nicer, friendlier Evangelicals hang onto theological fundamentalism. While their lifestyle or what they consider a sin might be different from their legalistic brethren, theologically there is very little difference between the two.
Here’s how you force nicer, friendlier Evangelicals to show their true colors. Forget this or that doctrine. Forget everything except what I share next:
Evangelical: The church I go to, First Church of the Most Awesome People in Town, is the nicest, friendliest church in town. We love everyone, and I am sure that if you come to our church you will feel right at home!!
Bruce: Let me ask you several questions. First, do you believe in a literal Hell?
Evangelical: Yes, that’s what the Bible teaches.
Bruce: Who ends up in Hell?
Evangelical: Well, um, uh, I am not the judge, only God is. But the Bible does say that a person must know Jesus as their Lord and Savior to go to Heaven when they die.
Bruce: So, since I am not a Christian and I refuse to acknowledge Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I will go to Hell when I die, right?
Evangelical: (looks down to ground) Uh, well, um, yeah, if you don’t repent of your sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ you will go to Hell when you die.
Bruce: How long will I be in Hell? Is it like Catholic purgatory where I’ll suffer for a time and then be taken to Heaven?
Evangelical: Well, uh . . . (long, long, long pause) if you die without knowing Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will spend eternity in the torments of Hell.
Bruce: Fire and brimstone and where the worm dieth not?
Evangelical: Yes.
Bruce: Since this body I currently have would burn up if I was thrown into a pit of fire and brimstone, does this mean God gives me a new body that will withstand the torments of Hell?
Evangelical: (silently praying the Rapture would happen)
Bruce: And doesn’t this mean that your God created me, killed me, and sent me to Hell with a new body fashioned by him to withstand day and night torture for eternity?
Evangelical: (God, won’t this atheist go away)
Bruce: Is this the God you worship? Why would anyone want to worship such a horrible deity?
Forget all the other doctrines, this is the only one that matters. I don’t care how nice or friendly Evangelical churches thinks they are, if they believe in Hell, then they are party to their God’s savage, endless torture of billions of people. They might smile more or practice friendship evangelism, but the result is still the same: those who don’t repent of their sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ go to Hell when they die. (Please see We Love People and Are the Friendliest Church in Town.)
The next time you run into a nicer, friendlier Evangelical, go for their jugular. Ask them point-blank if they believe in Hell. Their answer(s) to this question will tell you all you need to know. Personally, I have no interest in being a part of a group or being friends with anyone who thinks that I will burn in Hell for eternity because I am not like them. This kind of thinking is no different from the thinking of the demented killers portrayed on Criminal Minds. Our God is an awesome God, the Evangelical says, and He loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. And if you refuse to accept his gracious, wonderful offer of salvation, our God will someday torture you for all eternity.
Bruce Gerencser, 69, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 48 years. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
This cookie is set by X to identify and track the website visitor. Registers if a users is signed in the X platform and collects information about ad preferences.
2 years
personalization_id
Unique value with which users can be identified by X. Collected information is used to be personalize X services, including X trends, stories, ads and suggestions.
2 years
external_referer
Our Website uses X buttons to allow our visitors to follow our promotional X feeds, and sometimes embed feeds on our Website.
