Daniel Kluver continues to share what God has laid upon his heart to tell me. Here’s what he sent me tonight:
You are the one making an ass out of your self! If all you can talk is shit then go talk It to the devil. A devil did speak through in a lie yesterday. You claimed to have demonic power yesterday [evidently Kluver doesn’t understand sarcasm] but the fact is the devil in you was just boasting about himself! You have no power and your garbage that you dump into the world will soon be over according to your testimony about your health [ah yes, another passive-aggressive threat]. Sometimes when people are infested with evil spirits they don’t even know what is wrong with their selves. If that’s the case with you then you still have a chance for the evil spirits to be flushed out and then you won’t have to keep living like the guy in mark chapter five.[the demon-possessed maniac of Gadera] I have learned how to get demons to manifest in people like you and that is evident.
Any further messages from Kluver will be added to this post. It is time to put the Daniel Kluver saga to bed. If you have not already done so, please read my previous posts about Kluver’s emails, comments, and social media messages:
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
While family members swear on a stack of Bearing Precious Seed Leather Bound King James Version Bibles that Pastor Falls takes the virus seriously, video evidence suggests otherwise. Sure, Falls wears a mask (he and his family were infected last year), as do other church members, but by and large, the congregation continues to have unprotected sex with COVID-19. A recent family photo shot in the Baptist Temple’s gymnasium features at least three family members with serious health problems (including Polly’s mom). Not one person in the photo is wearing a mark. I see the same thing in other photos taken at the church or its school, Licking County Christian Academy. All the evidence suggests that the church gives lip service to CDC and Licking County Health Department COVID-19 guidelines.
Last Sunday, Polly’s mom told her during their weekly phone call that ten of her fellow church members were currently infected with COVID-19, and two of them were in the hospital. The church has had other outbreaks, and I believe at least one member has died from the virus. It is clear, at least to me, that the Baptist Temple facilitates and promotes super-spreader events, also known as Sunday church services. Polly’s mom continues to attend Sunday services, saying that she wears a mask and sits in the back of the church away from other people. Mom refuses to get vaccinated, claiming that COVID is no worse than the flu. And since she doesn’t get the annual flu vaccine, she has no plans to get the COVID-19 vaccine either. Besides, according to Mom, Jesus is in control, and she is ready to die and go to Heaven.
Earlier today, our nephew — who pleaded with Mom to get vaccinated — informed us that Mom coded while at the doctor’s office (she has congestive heart failure). She had yet another heart attack and was tested for COVID-19 while waiting to be admitted to the hospital. The test came back positive. She is currently asymptomatic, but the doctor told her the heart attack could be COVID-related. While it is impossible to know exactly where she was infected — she doesn’t go anywhere besides church and rarely comes in contact with people outside of her church — it is safe to conclude that the Baptist Temple is the vector.
Pastor Falls, a libertarian, refuses to insist that church members wear masks and practice social distancing. I suspect he thinks doing so is a good idea, but his libertarianism keeps him from demanding congregants follow CDC and Ohio Department of Health Department guidelines. The Baptist Temple is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) congregation. The church has all sorts of rules mandating member behavior, yet when it comes to COVID-19, it is hands-off and follow the Lord’s leading. Women can’t wear pants, and premarital sex will get you excommunicated, but whether to take steps to protect oneself from a deadly virus is just a matter of personal opinion.
Polly and I are beyond angry. And frustrated. And helpless. Nothing we say or do will change what is happening at the Newark Baptist Temple. We are forced to sit by while Mom gambles away her life, believing that Jesus and good genes will keep her alive. And if they don’t? Polly and I are left with the chore of dealing with the church, its pastor, and family members. We are left with the chore of cleaning up the mess Mom leaves behind after she dies. She refuses to update her will, leaving Polly and me to take care of everything after she is gone. We pleaded with Mom to set her house in order, but she refuses to do so, leaving her only daughter and son-in-law to deal with all the shit that is sure to come. We will certainly take care of things and do what we can to honor her wishes, but Mom’s unwillingness to make things easier for us is selfishness on her part.
I texted my oldest son the following today: I HATE the Baptist Temple. I literally hate what this church has done to my mother-in-law (and my deceased father-in-law) and our extended family. While Mom is certainly culpable for her ignorant beliefs about the virus and Jesus’s hands-on care, it’s hard not to put much of the blame on the church she has attended for the past forty-five years. Fundamentalist indoctrination has crippled her ability to think and reason, and in the end, it will probably kill her.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
These days, I enjoy drinking an occasional glass of wine, shot of whisky, or a variety of other concoctions containing alcohol. However, enjoying the fruits and grains of God’s Creation® has not always been my habit. Being raised in the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church meant that I heard countless sermons on the evils of alcohol. My parents didn’t drink, and neither did I. I was almost forty-five years old before I drank alcohol, and then I only did it because I thought it might help with my pain. (It didn’t. I quickly learned that I have to drink a lot of alcohol before I feel its effects.) It has only been since I left Christianity that I have felt the freedom to drink alcohol at home and socially.
As a youth, the frequent sermons I heard about the dangers of drinking alcohol made a deep psychological impression on me. How could it not? Week after week, month after month, and year after year, the pastors and youth directors of the churches I attended made sure that congregants knew that drinking alcohol would lead a person straight to Hell. As with many forbidden behaviors, preachers used violent, bloody, extreme stories to illustrate their anti-booze sermons, not-so-subtly reminding us that if we touched one drop of the Devil’s brew, we too could face such calamities and even death.
How did these men of God justify their anti-alcohol crusading on a Biblical basis? The Bible says:
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1)
Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! (Isaiah 5:11)
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:21)
Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again. (Proverbs 23:29-35)
It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. (Proverbs 31:4,5)
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. (Isaiah 28:7)
For much of my life, these verses were sufficient to keep me from drinking alcohol. It wasn’t until the late 1990s that I took another look at what the Bible actually said about alcohol. I found that the preachers of my youth, though well-intentioned, were misusing what the Bible said to advance a moralistic code of conduct. To do so, they only focused on Bible verses that propped up their teetotaling views. I never heard sermons quoting these verses:
Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. (Ecclesiastes 9:7)
The Lord hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the Lord; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness. (Isaiah 62:8,9)
He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart. (Psalm 104:14,15)
Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. (Isaiah 55:1)
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household. (Deuteronomy 14:26)
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more. (Proverbs 31:6,7)
As I delved into the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words used for wine and strong drink, I concluded that it was impossible to support abstinence from alcohol from the Bible. While the Bible clearly condemns drunkenness, it does not forbid drinking alcohol in moderation; moderation being a word rarely used in IFB circles.
The text that finally convinced me that it was okay for people to drink alcohol in moderation was John 2:1-11 — the story where Jesus turned water into wine:
And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
In John 2, we have Jesus attending a wedding at Cana — likely the wedding of someone he knew or a family member. Fermented wine drinking was a normal, everyday part of Jewish life in first-century Palestine. It is not unreasonable to think that Jesus regularly drank wine. Attempts by Evangelicals to turn Jesus into a Welch’s-grape-juice-drinking temperance crusader are ludicrous and not supported by the Biblical text. No one who has studied this issue thinks that the wine served at this wedding was non-alcoholic. What sealed the deal for me was this: the people at the wedding called Jesus’ wine creation good wine. Would first-century Jews consider non-alcoholic wine “good” wine? Of course not. There is only one conclusion that an honest seeker of truth can come to: Jesus drank fermented wine and turned water into alcoholic wine so others could drink it.
Some Evangelical teetotalers, knowing that the Biblical text does NOT condemn moderate alcohol drinking, turn to other arguments in their attempts to keep people from enjoying beer, wine, and spirits. Here are a few of the arguments I have heard over the years:
The wine and strong drink in Bible times had less alcohol content. One notable preacher said that the alcohol content was likely one percent! Imagine how much one-percent wine someone would have to drink to, according to Solomon in Ecclesiastes, feel merry in heart.
Drinking alcohol could cause us to make poor decisions or sin against God, thus it is better to abstain than to put ourselves in danger of sinning. Neither give place to the devil. (Ephesians 4:27)
Being seen in public buying or drinking alcohol could cause people to think poorly of us, even causing sinners to reject Christianity. Since having a good testimony is paramount, the best thing to do is to never buy or drink beer, wine, or spirits. Abstain from all appearance of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:22)
The most common argument used to justify abstinence was the stumbling brother argument. The thinking goes something like this: Christians should never do anything that could cause a fellow believer to stumble and fall into sin. Better to refrain from doing something than to be the reason a weak Christian ends up at the bar on Friday night downing shots of whisky. The Biblical justification for this line of thinking is found in Romans 14:17-21:
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Evangelical churches often have numerous members who were alcoholics before Jesus (or AA) “saved” them. According to the stumbling brother argument, because some church members were alcoholics before they were saved, fellow Christians should go out of their way to not do anything that would cause them to go back to their former way of life. This line of thinking suggests that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not enough to keep some Christians from returning to a life of sin, so everyone else must be punished for their weaknesses. Of course, this is absurd. Christians, along with the rest of humanity, can be addicted to all sorts of behaviors. Ever notice how fat many Evangelical — especially Baptist — preachers there are? I often kidded church members that gluttony is the only sin permitted in the Baptist church. If helping fellow Christians to avoid stumbling into sin is the goal, shouldn’t churches stop having fellowship dinners? Shouldn’t church women wear burqas, so former porn addicts, adulterers, and fornicators aren’t tempted to return to their former ways of life? Shouldn’t Christians voluntarily get rid of their televisions, lest those who can’t control their viewing of “sinful” things on the Hellivsion® are tempted to watch HBO?
See how silly this kind of thinking is? Besides, it robs people of being responsible for their own behavior. This is little more than what I call Flip Wilson thinking — the DEVIL made me do it. Evangelicalism turns people into hapless, pathetic creatures who go through life fearing that sin and destruction are only a decision away. As a result, Evangelicals miss out on much of what non-Evangelicals and unbelievers consider a normal part of life. We only have one life, and it will soon be past. Shouldn’t we enjoy it while we can? Instead of condemning alcohol drinking, perhaps Evangelicals should practice moderation and teach their children how to drink responsibly. Much like with sex, Evangelicals turn alcohol drinking into a larger-than-life demon that will destroy lives unless it is avoided at all costs. Yes, for some, drinking alcohol can and does cause harm, but then virtually anything can cause harm when used in excess. Evangelical parents are so obsessed with their children avoiding the world and its supposedly negative influences that they fail to teach them how to make thoughtful, responsible decisions. Just Say NO becomes the mantra to live by, but as most worldlings know, such a black-and-white view of the world rarely works. In fact, such thinking actually makes it more likely for Christian teens and young adults to get caught up in “sinful” behaviors when they are away from the ever-watchful eyes of their preachers and parents or out on their own at college. Instead of prohibition, perhaps teaching responsible drinking is the right path to maturity. Doing this, of course, means ignoring the Bible — or at least certain verses anyway.
Today, our home sports a well-stocked liquor cabinet. Polly and I are free to drink whenever we want, even to excess. Channeling the ghosts of hippies past, we subscribe to the notion, if it feels good, do it (with the caveat that our behavior does not harm anyone). We seldom drink in public, and when we do, it is rarely more than a drink or two. Our children are lustful imbibers of the fruit of the vines and grains of the field, but like their parents, they never drive an automobile after drinking alcohol. Most often, Polly and I drink at home, content to drink a few glasses of wine on the weekend. Neither of us is a beer drinker, though Polly has of late, thanks to our oldest sons, found a few beers she likes. I tend to like hard liquor, Polly doesn’t. Neither of us has been drunk, though I have seen Polly quite happy a time or two. While our drinking of alcohol saddens Polly’s IFB parents, we no longer hide the bottles when they are around. Drinking alcohol is a part of our lives now, and we see no reason to hide our “sin” from anyone. When our family gathers together for special events, beer and/or wine are part of the festivities. On those occasions when attendees drink more than they should, they always leave our home driven by someone not under the influence of Satan’s deadly elixir.
The overarching rule of our lives is that we only get one opportunity to live, so we might as well enjoy our short time on earth. For many people, drinking alcohol is a part of their enjoyment of life. For others, it is not. Live and let live, each to his own — clichés to be sure, but they do reflect how Polly and I view the behavior of others. As long as someone’s behavior is not causing harm to himself or others, it is none of our business. This rule applies to virtually every aspect of human behavior. My fellow humans do things that I would NEVER do, but as long as they aren’t harming themselves or others, who am I to object? And I, at times, take this even further. If people are doing something that might potentially cause physical harm to themselves, I see no reason to object to their behavior. People are going to do what people do. Can premarital sex cause harm? Sure, but then so can marital sex. Eating too much of certain foods or skydiving can cause personal harm, but so can being a vegetarian and driving rather than flying on airplanes. Life is filled with risk and danger. The best any of us can do is to weigh the risks and act accordingly. No one gets out of this life without making a few errant risk calculations. That we lived to tell about them is all the reason more to embrace life and live with it gusto!
Did you grow up in a religion and/or a home that forbade the drinking of alcohol? Please share your experiences in the comment section.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Emmanuel Baptist Church, Buckeye Lake, Ohio, Bruce Gerencser’s ordination April 1983, age 25
Several years ago, I received the following email:
I read your blog. Thanks for sharing. I have been an Evangelical Christian since I was 5. I accepted Jesus of the Bible at that time. When I read your “Why I Hate Jesus”, it made me sad. I couldn’t help but think that you have had a lot of pain from people who profess Jesus Christ and that Jesus Himself has let you down. I did have a question. On your ABOUT page, the question was “when were you called into the ministry. ” If you don’t believe in Jesus anymore, who do you think called you into the ministry?
In this post, I want to focus on the question, “If you don’t believe in Jesus anymore, who do you think called you into the ministry?”
This is a fairly common question I am asked when someone is trying to square my current atheistic life with that of the twenty-five years I spent in the ministry. I believed that it was GOD who called me into the ministry, but now I believe that this same God is a fiction. If God doesn’t exist, who is it then that spoke to my “heart” as a fifteen-year-old boy, telling me that I was to be a pastor, a preacher of the good news of the gospel?
The Evangelical culture I grew up in emphasized the importance of boys and girls growing up to be full-time servants of Jesus Christ. Children and teenagers were encouraged to pray and ask God if he wanted them to devote their lives to the ministry, be it as a pastor, evangelist, or missionary. As Hannah did with Samuel, parents were challenged to give their children over to God, hoping that he might see fit to use them in a mighty way to advance his Kingdom. Pastors considered it a sign of God’s favor if teen boys were called to preach under their ministry. Like the gunslingers of yesteryear, pastors put a notch on their gospel gun every time a boy surrendered to the ministry.
Being called to full-time service means you are special, uniquely chosen by God to do his work. From the moment a boy says, preacher, I think God is calling me to preach, he is treated by the church as some sort of extraordinary human being. I heard countless preachers say that being called into the ministry was the greatest calling in the world; that becoming President of the United States would be a step down from the ministry. Preacher boys — as young men called into the ministry are often nicknamed — are quickly given preacher things to do. No time is better than NOW, I was told, to start serving God and preaching his Word. I preached my first sermon to the Junior High Sunday school class two weeks after I stood before the church and said, God is calling me to be a preacher. I spent the next few years honing my preaching skills at youth meetings, nursing homes, and any other place that didn’t mind hearing the ramblings of an inexperienced, uneducated boy preacher. By the time I delivered my last sermon in April 2005, I had preached 4,000+ messages, often preaching three or more sermons a week.
What I have written above is key to answering the question, “If you don’t believe in Jesus anymore, who do you think called you into the ministry?” Since I don’t think God exists, the only way I can possibly answer this question is from an environmental, psychological, cultural, and sociological perspective. It is important to remember that it is not necessary for God to exist for people to believe that he does. Billions of people believe in a supernatural deity/force that does not exist. Every day, billions of people will pray to, worship, and swear allegiance to deities that cannot be seen, heard, or touched. These deities can, however, be felt, and it is these feelings that lead people to believe that their invisible God is indeed real. Thus, I KNOW that God called me into the ministry because I “felt” him speak to me. This is no different from the five-year-old Bruce Gerencser believing that Santa Claus somehow came down the chimney every Christmas Eve and put presents under the tree just for him. Of course, time, experience, and knowledge caused me to see that my beliefs about Santa were false, as they did when it came to my beliefs about God.
These religious feelings and beliefs of mine were reinforced by the Bible. Various verses in the Word of God speak of men who are called to be pastors/elders/bishops/missionaries/evangelists. Variously interpreted by Christian sects, all agree on one point: God calls boys/men (and in some cases, girls/women) into the ministry. This calling is essentially God laying his hand on someone and saying, I have set you apart for my use. Church youngsters are regaled with stories about men and women called by God who did great works. From the Bible, stories of the faith-driven exploits of Noah, Moses, David, Gideon, Elijah, Elisha, Joshua, the apostles, and Paul are used as reminders of what God can and will do for those willing to dedicate their lives to serving him. Church children are encouraged to read the biographies of men (and a few women) mightily used by God. I heard more than a few preachers say, look at what God did through Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, Dwight Moody, Bob Jones, John R. Rice, Billy Sunday, Adoniram Judson, Andrew Fuller, David Brainerd, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Finney, Jack Hyles, B.R. Lakin, and countless other servants of God. Who knows what God might do through you if you will dare to surrender your life to him? What young preacher boy wouldn’t want to be someday used by God like these men?
I spent thirty-three years believing that God had called me to preach the unsearchable riches of Jesus Christ; that this calling was irrevocable; that misery and judgment (and perhaps death) awaited if I failed to obey God. The Apostle Paul said in First Corinthians 9:16:
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
As with Paul, Bruce the Evangelical preacher had a burning desire to preach the gospel; to tell as many people as possible that Jesus alone can save them from their sin; that there is a Hell to shun and a Heaven to gain; that what is a man profited if he gain the world and lose his soul. I shed countless tears over the lost — both in and out of the church. I spent untold hours praying for revival to break out in America, spreading to the ends of the earth. Believing Jesus was coming back to earth soon, I devoted myself to making sure as many people as possible heard the gospel. I thought, at the time, my duty is to tell them. It is up to God to save them. For many years, my evangelistic zeal burned so hot that I preached a minimum of four sermons a week, along with preaching on the streets and holding services at the local nursing home and county jail. To quote the motto of Midwestern Baptist College — the institution I attended in the 1970s — Souls for Jesus is Our Battle Cry, Souls for Jesus is Our Battle Cry. We Never Will Give in While Souls are Lost in Sin, Souls for Jesus is Our Battle Cry!
My burning the candle at both ends wouldn’t have been possible if I didn’t believe that God had called me into the ministry and was speaking to and through me. I believed that this God existed. I may never have seen God or audibly heard him, but I felt his presence in my life. I “heard” the Holy Spirit speaking to me, leading me, and teaching me truth. These experiences of mine were verified by what I read in the Bible and Christian biographies and what I observed in the lives of my pastors, teachers, and mentors. Most of all, they were verified by the work God accomplished through my preaching and leadership. How then, knowing these things, can I now believe that God is a work a fiction; that my ministerial experiences were the work, not of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, but the works of a quite-human Bruce Gerencser?
The deconversion process afforded me the opportunity to step back from my life and view it from a distance. As I looked at my parents’ religious, theological, social, and political leanings and that of the pastors of the churches we attended, it would have been shocking if I hadn’t, as a teenager, professed that God was calling me into the ministry. At age five, while we were living in San Diego and attending Scott Memorial Baptist Church (Scott Memorial was pastored by Tim LaHaye), I told my mother that I was going to be a preacher someday. Not a baseball player, policeman, or garbage truck driver — a preacher! This, of course, pleased my Mom. (Ironically, neither my mother or father ever heard me preach.) When people talked about the angst they had over trying to determine what they wanted to do with their lives when they grew up, I had no frame of reference. I never wrestled with what I wanted to be as an adult. I always wanted to be a preacher, and by God’s wonderful, matchless grace, that is exactly what I became. Everything I experienced in my life led me to the monumental day at Trinity Baptist Church in Findlay, Ohio, when, with tears and trembling, I told the church God was calling me into the ministry. Scores of fellow church members shouted Amen! and later hugged me, telling me that they would pray for me. I am sure that more than a few people had mixed feelings about my calling. Really Lord? Are you sure you can use this temperamental, ornery redheaded boy? I have often wondered what my peers thought as I went from the boy who told the youth director to fuck off! to a young man who loved Jesus, carried his Bible to school, handed out tracts to his unsaved friends, went soulwinning, worked on a bus route, and occasionally preached at Sunday evening youth meetings. The old Bruce, who wore frayed jeans, boots, and tee-shirts to church, gave way to the New Bruce, who wore preacher clothes, including ties. What’s next? Swearing off girls? Anyone who knew me as a preacher boy knows I resolutely obeyed the Baptist Rulebook®. (Please read The Official Independent Baptist Rulebook) I didn’t smoke, drink, cuss, listen to rock music, or engage in premarital sex. I had plenty of girlfriends, but I drew the line at kissing, holding hands, and putting our arms around each other. My commitment to virginity was part of my devotion to God. As much as I wanted to have sex, I willingly took many a cold shower, keeping myself pure until my wedding day.
Most Baptist preachers will likely say that they just KNEW God was calling them to preach. If they are still Christians, I am sure they attribute their feelings to supernatural intervention. It’s all because of J-E-S-U-S, not me, I’m sure they’ll say, yet the signs in front of their churches say Rev. So-and-So, Pastor. You see, the whole notion of being called by God is rooted not in the supernatural, but in earthly human experiences. My Baptist faith taught me to call my interest in the ministry a calling from God, but in truth, it was the natural outcome of my upbringing and experiences. My entrance into the preaching fraternity was never in doubt. How could I not have become a preacher?
There is nothing in my story that requires the actual existence of a supernatural deity. All that is required is that I, along with the other players in my life, believe God exists. For my first fifty years of life, I believed that the Evangelical God was every bit a real as the sun, moon, stars, and earth. And now I don’t. Does this invalidate my years in the ministry? Of course not. All that has changed is my perspective and how I see my trajectory from a sinner to a Holy Spirit-led follower of Jesus Christ. Instead of God being the first cause, I now know that environmental, psychological, cultural, and sociological influences molded me into the man who would one day preach thousands of sermons in churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Congregants called me Pastor Bruce, Rev. Gerencser, or Preacher — the man of God who spoke the Word of God to the people of God. I now know who I really was . . . his name is Bruce.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Earlier this week, an Evangelical man named Daniel Kluver decided to contact my wife on Facebook. (Please see Evangelical Man Messages My Wife on Facebook.) Kluver also messaged me (please see Another Facebook Message From an Evangelical Zealot) and left comments on my posts on Facebook. Kluver has since blocked me on Facebook — my demonic power must be too strong for him. Before he blocked me, he sent me one more message.
Here’s what Kluver had to say. My response is indented and italicized.
You morphs are just confirmation of the times we are in.
Kluver says I am a “morph.” I had no idea what this term meant. I found out the word has several technical meanings. The word is also listed in the Urban Dictionary, and I suspect this is the definition Kluver wants to use.
A morph is “a person who acts like an idiot, a person who acts like a crackhead.” I don’t use crack, so I assume that Kluver is calling me an idiot.
You have shown that you don’t love or fear god and you are useless now!
I am an atheist, so of course I don’t love nor fear Kluver’s God. Said God is a mythical being, a work of fiction. I can say the same thing about every extant God. I do, however, fear the worshipers of deities. People cause harm, not gods. Beliefs cause harm, not gods.
Kluver says that because I don’t love or fear his God that I am “useless.” I have no idea what he means.
Your opinions are slanderous and you have become just like satan whom you serve. A stumbling block to some. Just a bunch of hot air to others.
To devout Fundamentalist Christians such as Kluver, I am sure my writing seems slanderous. My goal has always been to help those who have questions/doubts about Christianity or have left Christianity. My target audience has NEVER been saved, sanctified, all-hopped-up-on-Jesus Christians. If such people read my writing, it is because they choose to do so. Don’t want to get your panties in a bunch? Don’t want to feel righteous indignation? Don’t want to get angry? Then don’t read my writing.
Kluver seems to forget that he is the one who commented on this blog, and he is the one who contacted my wife and me on Facebook. I left Christianity thirteen years ago. Not one time I have ever contacted a Christian and tried to convert them to atheism. I abhor such behavior. I do, however, respond to Christians who email me, leave comments on this site, or comment on social media. My nuclear policy is this: no first strike.
Lost on Kluver is the fact that if I don’t believe in the existence of God, neither do I believe in the existence of Satan/Lucifer/Devil/Beelzebul/Day-Star/Son of the Morning/The Evil One/Father of Lies/Ruler of this World/God of this Age/Angel of Light/Roaring Lion/Destroyer/Apollyon/Abaddon/Serpent/Deceiver of the World/Accuser of God’s People. No matter what name you give her, I don’t believe she exists.
Kluver believes I am a stumbling block to some Christians. He is, of course, right. I know that many Christians find my story and my critiques of Evangelicalism to be troubling and disconcerting. Former parishioners and colleagues in the ministry have told me that my writing so troubles them that they can’t read it. Why is that? I am just one man with a story to tell. If my writing causes followers of Jesus to doubt their beliefs, why am I to blame? I make no effort to evangelize people. Millions of people have read my writing over the years, many of whom are Christian. I am humbled by the sheer number of people who think my writing is worth reading. I sure as hell wouldn’t read this shit! 🙂 If readers find help and encouragement from my writing, I am grateful. Grateful to whom, you ask? Loki, of course. 🙂
I started blogging in 2007. At the time, I was still a Christian — barely. Since that time, I have heard from scores of people who have been helped by my writing, some of whom deconverted after reading my work. Do I find satisfaction in people deconverting? Sure. I am persuaded that any move away from Christian Fundamentalism is a good one. If my writing helps someone break free from the pernicious clutches of Evangelicalism, I count myself blessed. Blessed by whom, you ask? Loki, of course. 🙂
Kluver believes I am full of hot air. Maybe. However, I suspect that Kluver thinks my educated opinions about Evangelical Christianity are what he is calling “hot air.” The traffic numbers for this site suggest that there are a lot of people who seem to like “hot air.” I encourage Kluver to start his own blog. By all means, rage against the evil atheist Bruce Gerencser. Deconstruct my story and attack my beliefs. Nail me to a cross and metaphorically crucify me. My life and work are an open book. By all means, blast away! (A number of Evangelical zealots have done just that over the years. They miserably failed, abandoning their attempts to deconstruct my life.)
Rough times ahead just right around the corner for those who hate god.
Yet another passive-aggressive threat from Kluver. What, exactly, lies ahead for those who “hate God?” Need I remind Kluver that atheists don’t hate God? Atheists don’t hate mythical beings. Wouldn’t it be silly to do so?
You’re wrong about who dies when you said that we will both die. Believers never die!
*sigh* Both Kluver and I will one day die. I am sixty-three, and he is sixty-four. We are in the final stretch of life. If I live to age seventy, that means ninety percent of my life is over. I hope that I live that long, but I have my doubts. Gastroparesis, fibromyalgia, and osteoarthritis are taking their toll on my body. I know death is stalking me, just as it is Daniel Kluver. Unfortunately, Kluver thinks he’s never going to die; that the moment he draws his last breath in this life, he will awake in Heaven. This, of course, is not taught in the Bible. Orthodox Christian theology teaches people — saved and lost — remain in the grave until they are resurrected from the dead and judged by God. Kluver and I are headed for the same place — the grave.
I am amazed at your ignorance and you probably were thrown out of the congregation that you say you were pastoring. I doubt that much of what you said is true!
I am amazed at my ignorance too. There is so much that I don’t know.
Kluver ends his message by trying to inflict as much emotional pain as possible. It’s evident he wants to hurt me. Thus, he calls me a liar, doubts my story is true, and says I was thrown out of the congregation I pastored.
I do my best to give an open, honest accounting of my life — past and present. I just completed a five-part series titled I am a Publican and a Heathen, detailing my excommunication from Community Baptist Church in Elmendorf, Texas. I also wrote a post about what happened to the churches I pastored. Please read What Happened to the Churches I Pastored?
Why don’t you get a job?
Well, I am disabled and retired. Had Kluver bothered to read more than the five posts he read on this site, he might have known this. He might have learned about my struggles with chronic illness and pain. He might also have learned that I can no longer drive. Believe me, if someone had a job opening for a broken-down, sick old man like me, I would take it.
Not that I don’t work, I do. It takes me hours each day to write for this blog. While I don’t make much money from blogging, I do treat it as a job. I also manage my sister’s business website. Throw in the money I make from stripping on the weekends, and I am rolling in cash from the “work” I do. Of course, Kluver uses “Why don’t you get a job?” as a way to inflict emotional pain. My beliefs no longer matter to him; he’s out for blood.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Yesterday, I responded to a Facebook message sent by Evangelical Christian Daniel Kluver to my wife. (Please see Evangelical Man Messages My Wife on Facebook.) Kluver also messaged me, but I didn’t see it at first, thanks to it landing in my spam folder. Evidently, God can’t circumvent spam filters. What follows is Kluver’s message (s) to me. My response is indented and italicized.
Peter ruckman was disliked by many brainwashed preacher boys but he was my favorite teacher because he was a straight shooter! Just because the Bible says in the latter times some will depart from the faith giving heed to doctrines of demons like the nuns that won’t marry doesn’t mean you have to. You should watch demons and Christians by ruckman.
This one paragraph tells me everything I need to know about how Daniel Kluver views the Bible and the world, in general. Kluver is a follower of Peter Ruckman, a thrice-divorced, racist Independent Fundamentalist Baptist preacher (now deceased). (Please see Questions: Bruce, In Your IFB Days Did You Encounter Peter Ruckman?) Ruckman was a nasty, arrogant, self-righteous preacher, as are many of his followers.
In Kluver’s world, people who disagree with his demigod are “brainwashed.” Ruckman was King James-only, going so far as to say that even the italicized words in the King James Bible were inspired by God. Ruckman may be dead, but his teachings about the King James Bible live on, infecting the minds of countless Fundamentalist Baptist preachers. I know numerous preachers who are Ruckmanites, even though they refuse to admit where their theological beliefs came from. These preachers despise the man, but love his doctrines. Ruckman operated a Bible Institute in Pensacola, Florida, churning out clones for decades.
You speak like you were a brainwashed preacher boy and it makes me wonder if you are really saved.
In his message to Polly, Kluver suggested that I was still saved. Now he thinks I am unsaved, that I have been “brainwashed.” By whom, he does not say. As a Christian, I was directed, led, and taught by God himself — the Holy Spirit. Thus, if I was “brainwashed” by anyone, it was God.
I have prayed for god to soften your heart and cut you to the marrow if that’s what it takes.with stents and patches all over our bodies we are in the third quarter of life.
Since God ALWAYS answers Kluver’s prayers (his words), I should expect the Holy Spirit to “soften my heart and cut me to the marrow.” I’m melting, I’m melting! Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. Kluver’s mind is so infected and corrupted with Bible words that he is unable to write using everyday English words unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines such as myself might understand.
I would probably bet that your wife has been a first peter chapter three wife at times.
Kluver says that Polly was, at one time, a First Peter 3 wife. Yes, she still loves peter. 🙂 What Kluver means is this:
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Polly was a First Peter 3 wife ALL the time; that is before we realized how harmful and demeaning such teachings were. I can confidently report that Polly is no longer a First Peter 3 wife — and I have lived to tell about it. 🙂
Gods message to you is don’t let your pride get in the way of eternity! The only way you could ever preach gods word and denounce him later is only by devils that you have let surround yourself. Devils perched on both shoulders whispering lies into your mind to block the Spirit of God all mighty!
Ah yes, I am surrounded by devils. As many Evangelicals do, Kluver can’t make my past and present life fit in his narrow Fundamentalist box. Instead of just accepting that I once was a Christian, and now I am not, Kluver scrambles and flails, looking for ways to explain my life. Further, Kluver thinks he has a direct message from God for me. I am “prideful,” and unless I humble myself before Kluver, uh I mean God, I will end up in Hell. You see, Kluver thinks he is in an MMA match with me. His goal is to make me submit.
there is a literal hell and I have found that out before I was saved. God used it as a tool to get my attention and it worked.
No, there’s not. Kluver provides no evidence for the existence of Hell. None, nada, zip. Kluver seems to suggest that he had some sort of experience that proved to him Hell is real. However, I doubt that Kluver has literally and physically visited Hell. If he has, I would sure love to see the evidence for his claim. You know, photos or video? The only hell I see is in this life. The same goes for heaven.
I am going to ask God to pull back his protective hand off of your life if that’s what it takes to get your attention. In case you haven’t realized it yet I asked God to use me and instead of street witnessing like I used to he is using technology. I have to stay prayed up to fight the devil everyday and you saw how he was working on me with the first message I sent you.
Kluver now turns to passive-aggressive threats. He’s asking a non-existent deity to take his hand off of me and cause me physical harm to get my attention. The only thing that concerns me with such threats is that Kluver might think that God wants him to be the means of “punishment.” Do I worry about such people? Sure, a bit. Religion can and does cause people to do all sorts of crazy shit. That said, if I hid every time an Evangelical zealot threatened me, I would never leave my home. Kluver told me today on Facebook: “One thing about you is you are entertaining but I am tired of you and your stupidity.” I reminded him that he was the one who contacted me.
If I don’t see you in heaven then I will see you on judgment day! Take care and god bless!
There is no Heaven or Hell, so Kluver and I will not see other after death. Both of us will most certainly die, but after that? Nothing. Both of us will become worm food or ash. Besides, if there really is a Heaven, why would I ever want to live in the same universe as the Kluvers of the world? No thanks. Give me Hell every time. Better company, and definitely better parties.
Kluver also wrote:
I read your part one about preachers and i am seeing all around me how church leaders are fouled up with relationships.I have been out of a so called church for over a year now. I poured my heart and soul into the congregation and when i retired from drywall contracting and doing most of the work because i was a small business, then i noticed that when i wasn’t fixing holes for almost free i was treated differently.I attended Calvary Chapel of tri cities Washington for twenty years and the friendships had no depth. People used to give me dirty looks when i said show me a pastor that doesn’t cuss and i will show him a screw gun. I have tried to be friends with the preacher and it’s just phony! I am not wired that way and even my old partying friends were better to be around.everytime i got close to the pastor i got really weird vibes from him like he didn’t like me for some reason.Twenty years of that crap was enough! What I saw with Calvary was a dictatorship and I won’t put up with that.if someone asked about the money he would snap back and say what do you want to know for? Sarcastic! I know we can’t quit the church because we are the church.There is something about being in leadership that I see change people in a bad way. I don’t know if I will attend so called church anymore. The southern baptist convention is another thing that really irritates me. They want contracts signed for church memberships! I know that when I got saved I then became a member of the body of Christ and not by some man made crap! I want to read part two of your story.Take care!
I am 64 close to your age.
There is a root of bitterness springing up inside of us towards man. God woke me up seven hours after I messaged you with heavy conviction. Our human nature wants to say that we are done with God but that’s what the enemy wants. I have been praying for both of us that God would yank the bitterness out of us by the roots! If you were really born of the spirit you will get the chastening which is a hug from God because he loves us. I have to say when I prayed with a friend for salvation at 17 years old it was probably a false conversion, just lip service.When I was thirty three years old I was driving to work and got nailed by the Holy Spirit and was truly born again.Thats what satan wants is false conversions because they are deceived. I read part two last night and I have seen the things you said happen to people. Men’s traditions are like doctrine of demons. I am sorry that satan has been attacking us but it’s going to happen when we are effectively touching others by our witnessing and teaching. I will continue to pray for you and your family and ask for Gods will in your lives and mine!
After reading Kluver’s message, I sent him a short reply:
Thank you for the blog fodder. Now fuck off.
Kluver replied:
Hey preacher boy i totally understand how screwed up the independent baptist church is and that’s what they do is brainwash people. I have seen it destroy marriages and they prey upon people who want to please god and they just use em up and kick them to the curb. For some stupid reason pastors think they need to follow the early church in acts and that was a communist outfit.just because these bastards messed with your life from the time you were young don’t let that stop your relationship with god. I have seen the corrupt so called church congregations and I hate it. You can use all the foul language you want to make up for all anger you have. I know I would! If you are truly born again then the chastening won’t be very comfortable and if you don’t get your head out of your ass god just might take his protective hand off of your life! That’s all I got to say!
One more thing. If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps the loudest just got hit! Telling me to fuck off was your yelp! You are mild compared to the Harley riders I share Jesus with. I just don’t take too much shit from people and for some reason I hope you will get right with the lord!
End of quotes
As readers can see, Kluver is on the outs with organized Christianity. He’s had some bad experiences, and this has, rightly so, affected his view of Christian churches and preachers. What perplexes me is his attack on me personally. What is it about me that irritates him so? As is typical with zealots and apologists, Kluver has read very little of my writing. And this has led him to make all sorts of errant assumptions about my life. Kluver wrongly thinks I was always an IFB preacher. I was not. I left the IFB church movement in the 1980s. I wish the Kluvers of the world would take the time to read my autobiographical work. Doing so would hopefully result in more nuanced and thoughtful interaction with them. Instead, I get the comments and emails featured in this post.
Not that it will matter. Kluver thinks I am saved, lost, headed for Heaven, headed for Hell, under God’s chastisement, or fixing to get chastised by God. Kluver didn’t contact me to gain a better understanding of my story. He’s on a mission from his God, and I am his “target.” Typically, I tell such people to fuck off, but, in Kluver’s case, I thought readers might find his comments and my responses instructive.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Last week, an Evangelical man named Danny Kluver left an innocuous comment on one of my posts. Afterward, he contacted my wife on Facebook. Evidently, Kluver thought doing so was appropriate. Perhaps he thought his God was directing him to contact Polly. Regardless, she is off-limits. Want to set me straight? Want to share what God has laid upon your heart? Want to try to reclaim me for Jesus? Then contact me directly.
What follows is Kluver’s message. My response is indented and italicized.
If we are truly born again we cannot quit the church because we are the church. You can walk away from the lord and be miserable if you are truly born again just as a non believer that thinks they are born again and can’t understand why they are miserable.
I was a born again Christian (as if there is any other) for most of my adult life. I pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years. I was in every way a follower of Jesus Christ. Yet, thirteen years ago, I divorced Jesus and publicly declared I was an atheist. According to Kluver, it impossible for a Christian to leave the faith — once saved, always saved. No matter what I say, no matter how I live my life, I am still a Christian.
Kluver believes that I surely must be “miserable.” Evidently, one cannot have a happy, satisfying life without Jesus. Ponder this thought for a moment. According to Kluver’s theology, the vast majority of the human race is miserable. Only those who believe as Kluver does are happy.
I have been where Bruce is or was and Hebrews twelve verses seven and on confirms the truth about someone.
Kluver doesn’t know me, so how could he possibly know where I am or where I was?
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Previously, Kluver said that I was still a Christian, but now he says that the measure of true faith is chastisement by God. In other words, Kluver can’t make up his mind whether I am a Christian. Is God chastising me? If so, that means I am a Christian. How could Kluver possibly know whether God is whipping me? Perhaps my difficulties and suffering are the results of “life.” Shit happens. No God needed.
God has answered every one of my prayers over the last twenty five years and you and your family have been my first and foremost prayers!
Bullshit.
Praying for others is my spiritual gift and I wasn’t sure what it was until I asked God to confirm it. We all have these gifts if we are born again and I believe one of yours is your heart for children.
More bullshit. According to Kluver, Polly and I have spiritual gifts, one of which is a “heart for children” (whatever the hell that means).
Kluver seems to have a hard time “discerning” whether I am a born-again Christian. He tells me “once saved always saved,” and then he tells me that “chastisement” is the measure by which one determines whether he is a Christian. And here he tells me that that having “spiritual gifts” is a sign of the new birth. So many salvation boxes to check. What’s next, circumcision?
take care and god bless you and your family!
*sigh*
What stood out most to me was that Kluver showed no interest in Polly’s spiritual welfare (outside of recognizing the obvious: she loves children). She was just a means to an end. You see, I am the big prize here, not Polly. She is just a garden variety unbeliever, hardly worth Kluver’s effort. No big reward in Heaven for reclaiming a lowly ex-preacher’s wife.
Polly’s thoughts on Kluver? Who the fuck is this guy? 🙂 Yes, the mild-mannered, reserved Polly Gerencser can be provoked to use the F word. Kluver should immediately fall on his knees and repent. His boorish behavior caused Polly to sin. And since she is still a born-again Christian, Kluver, the great prayer warrior he is, caused a weaker sister to stumble. Either that or Polly has little tolerance for Christian assholes these days. 🙂
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
On the last Sunday in November 2007, my wife and I walked out of the Ney United Methodist Church for the last time. We decided that we were done with Christianity, that whatever we were, we weren’t Christians. Initially, I claimed the agnostic label. Several months later, I abandoned this label, choosing instead to self-identify as an atheist. Thirteen years later, I am still an atheist.
While my beliefs have become more nuanced over time, I remain unconvinced that the central claims of Christianity are true. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.) Thousands of Evangelical/Roman Catholic/Greek Orthodox/Muslim apologists have emailed me or left comments on this site. Their objective? To evangelize me or reclaim me for Jesus. Whether the goal is salvation or restoration, they hope I will see the “light” and abandon atheism. That hasn’t happened, and it is unlikely to happen in the future. There remains no new argument for apologists to make for Christianity. I have heard their best (and worst) arguments. What could they possibly say that would change my mind?
I am a confirmed apostate, a heretic, and a reprobate. I am NOT a prospect for Heaven. With all the low-hanging fruit in the world, why do zealots bother with me? Is it that they really care for my “soul”? Or is it that they have a pathological need to hear themselves talk? Maybe they think that there is a .00000001 percent chance that their words will strike pay dirt; that I will repent and rejoin Jesus’s blood-washed band. Trust me when I say . . . that ain’t going to happen! Winning the lottery has better odds than me becoming a Christian again.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Recently, a Christian man by the name of Roger sent me the following email:
Interesting story. I think you’re right on that fundamentalism is idiotic. You’ve spelled that out quite well. Pastors are mostly egomaniacs as you rightly point out. But you could just ask them to find this pastor in the Bible (along with their whole church edifice and all its trappings) and you expose their empty hypocrisy. You don’t need to pick apart the Bible to destroy fundamentalism. They don’t even apply the Bible they claim to preach.
The problem you fail to see is that atheism is equally if not more stupid than fundamentalism. Why do these annoying atheists keep making moral claims? Why do they whine all day about how unjust hell is or how evil the biblical God is? Who are you, you evolved rodent, to make such an appeal to what is evil or unjust? Good and evil are just socially evolved constructs, right? So stop the whining. But atheists never stop whining. Atheists in my experience are actually highly moral people and constantly appeal to moral / ethical claims. The fact is the notion of morality and ethics is simply hard-wired into the human mind whether you like or it not. But atheists’ lack of self awareness about this is more annoying than fundamentalists telling me the earth is 6000 years old. It’s just theft. They’re stealing from the theists that they mock in this regard. They live in their own bubble, just like you accuse the fundamentalists of.
According to Roger, atheists are worse than Christian Fundamentalists. Atheists lack self-awareness, and have no morality or ethics of their own. Atheists are just stupid people who spend their waking hours whining about harmful Christian beliefs. Good to know, right?
I suspect that while Roger distances himself from Christian Fundamentalism, underneath his liberated self lies Fundamentalist beliefs. He sees himself as an “enlightened” Christian, yet it is likely that his core theological beliefs are not much different from those who proudly wear the Fundamentalist label.
Roger later sent me another email. Here’s what he had to say:
I wanted to reach out again and hope you didn’t take offense at the last message I sent. I read it again after I sent it and realized I probably came across as antagonistic and rude. Tone is absent in email. I was just laying out my general thoughts on fundamentalism / atheism, nothing personal about you or your story. Please forgive me if that was offensive to you and if so, please just disregard the message. I don’t mean you any disrespect or unkindness. I wish you the best on your journey.
warmly, Roger
Take offense? Of course not. Roger is just another self-righteous, arrogant Christian asshole. I have received thousands of emails and comments from the Rogers of this world. I am of the opinion that people tend to say what they mean the first time. Roger meant for his email to be personal, and I took it as such. It is too late for me to “disregard” his message.
I wish Christians would “think” before emailing me. I wish they would ask themselves what they hope to accomplish by contacting me. I am NOT a prospect for Heaven. There’s nothing Roger could possibly say that I haven’t read/heard before or said in one of the 4,000+ sermons I preached. Wouldn’t it be better to refrain from hitting “send”? Yet, most of the Rogers of the world can’t seem to help themselves. Whatever their motivations, they are driven to set me straight, put in a word for Jesus, or evangelize.
Roger closed his last email with “warmly”. Yep. His email made me feel warm all over. As in wearing dark blue khakis and pissing your pants.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Progressive Christians are fond of saying, “God is LOVE” — cue summer of love pop song. Finding the Old Testament God of judgment and wrath distasteful or offensive to their sensibilities, Progressive Christians excise the “bad” God from the Bible, choosing instead to focus on Jesus, the God of love. While I understand why Progressive Christians take this approach, it does do great violence to the teachings of the Bible and what Christians have historically believed about God. American Christianity is going through seismic changes and transformation. Beliefs once held dear by Christians are either revised or abandoned altogether. This is especially true with how Christians visualize God.
I wish every Christian held progressive beliefs and values. However, that doesn’t mean I find progressive hermenuetics and interpretations intellectually satisfying. While progressive beliefs make for a kinder, gentler world (and maybe that’s all that should matter), the Bible seems to be the odd man out. While Progressive Christians generally believe in the centrality of Jesus and his gospel, they are often sketchy on the details. Wanting to distance themselves from Evangelicalism, Progressive Christians jettison vast swaths of the Bible. No need to believe those things, Progressive Christians say. God is Love!
How do Progressive Christians know anything about Jesus or whether God is, in fact, love? What evidence do they have for these claims? Don’t they have to appeal to the Bible, much like their Evangelical brothers and sisters? Christianity is inherently a text-based religion. I have long argued: no Bible, no Christianity (not in any meaningful sense, anyway). If the Bible tells us that God is Love, should we not also accept what else it says about God?
Richard Dawkins had this to say about the God of the Old Testament:
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
THAT God is in the Bible too. Why do Progressive Christians ignore this God? His works are found throughout the Bible, including the New Testament. As we do with each other, we must accept God’s goodness and badness — the sum of his nature and character. None of us is pure goodness. All of us can do bad things. All of us can be assholes. We are neither as good nor as bad as we think we are. We are . . . as God is . . . human.
Most Christians believe God created everything. As Creator, God is in control of his creation. He gives life, takes life, and nothing happens apart from his purpose and plan. And if God is not in charge, who is? If the creator doesn’t control his creation, who does?
If God is Creator and the Bible is an accurate account of God’s works and character, can we not know his future plans for the human race? Press the “God is Love” crowd with questions about the future, and few answers are given. I have often wondered if Progressive Christians are, at heart, universalists; that, in the end, everyone makes it to Heaven. While such a belief is appealing, one must ignore much of the Bible to reach such a conclusion.
Both the Old Testament and New Testament teach that there is coming a day when God will judge the living and the dead; that God will separate the saved from the lost; that only those who worshiped Jesus will spend eternity in Heaven (Eternal Kingdom of God). Those who didn’t worship Jesus — whatever the reason — will spend eternity in Hell (Lake of Fire).
If the Bible is an accurate record of the character and nature of God, then it is clear that those who are not Christians will one day face his judgment and wrath. On that day, the God of Love will be nowhere to be found. I know Progressive Christians want to believe otherwise, but as long as they appeal to the Bible for their beliefs, they must accept that their God of Love is also one mean son-of-a-bitch.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
