I found the following graphic today on The Christian Post website. I transformed the graphic to accurately reflect how Evangelicals view the world. 🙂
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Do you believe the Bible is true? Inerrant? Infallible?
Do you believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life; that no man comes to the Father except through him?
Do you believe salvation is found in and through Jesus alone?
Do you believe a person must put their faith and trust in Jesus to be saved?
Do you believe a person must put their faith and trust in Jesus to go to Heaven after they die?
Do you believe the non-Christians will go to Hell when they die?
Do you believe death could happen at any moment?
Do you believe this life is preparation for the life to come?
Do you believe the church has the obligation to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature (person)?
Do you believe you can tell what a person believes is important by how they spend their time and how they spend their money?
Pretty straightforward questions. Not much room to wiggle, debate, or excuse.
Most Evangelicals would say yes to most, if not all, of these questions.
Now, if I really believed that Hell was real, death was certain, and Jesus was the only hope for humanity, I would spend every waking hour telling this to others. I would live simply and spend my money on making sure this message got out to the world. I would not waste one moment of my time with the frivolous things of this world, using that time to witness to others.
Surely, if what Evangelicals say they believe is true, the message JESUS SAVES is the most important message ever given to humanity.
Easter is the Christian proclamation that Jesus, the son of God, died on the cross for human sin and on the third day rose again from the dead conquering death and Hell. Truly there is VICTORY IN JESUS.
And all the people said, Amen.
So, explain something to me. Be honest.
Why is it that most Evangelicals LIVE like what I wrote above is a complete falsehood?
Most Evangelicals never share their faith with anyone.
Many churches go years without adding one new convert to their membership.
Most Evangelicals live, behave, and die just like their non-Christian neighbors, family, and friends.
It seems that Evangelicals don’t really believe what they are preaching.
I am not pointing a finger at you.
I am just asking for you to be honest.
If Jesus is the answer to all life’s questions.
If Jesus satisfies every deepest longing of every person.
If Jesus will clean up and change sinners.
If Hell is real.
If Heaven is real.
If death is certain.
Why do you live like none of this is true?
How many people did you share the gospel with last week? Last month? Last year? Since you have been a Christian?
How about your pastor? For all his talk about the gospel, how many people has he personally witnessed to this week? Last month? Last year? Since he entered the ministry?
How many new members have joined your church because they were witnessed to by a member of your congregation (transfers from other churches don’t count)?
How many new convert baptisms took place at your church last year?
My point in this little exercise is this: talk is cheap.
You want others to become a Christian.
You want others to follow Jesus.
Why should they?
If you don’t really believe the gospel, why should you expect anyone else to?
Here is my take on that matter.
Religion is a personal matter.
Even though the Bible says it is not, you live like it is, so you must believe it is.
Since it is a personal matter, each of us should be free to worship or not worship.
One thing we all agree on . . .
We all are going to die.
Let’s agree to leave the afterlife to the afterlife.
I am willing to settle up with God, if he exists, after I die.
Life would be so much better for everyone if each of us had the liberty to live life freely without being evangelized or coerced into making a religious profession (and let’s be honest, a lot of the evangelistic techniques used by Evangelicals are coercive).
This does not mean we can’t talk about religion. This doesn’t mean we can’t talk about the Bible.
But, let’s talk as fellow citizens of earth. Let’s talk as people who have in common shared humanity.
If we do this, you are relieved of the burden of witnessing and I am relieved of being an evangelistic target.
Let’s just be you and me.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
The four tools most often used by Evangelical preachers to keep people in the pews are:
The threat of God’s judgment
The threat of Hell
The promise of forgiveness
The promise of life after death
As with Jonathan Edwards in his famous sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, Evangelical preachers warn parishioners of the judgment to come and the Hell that awaits anyone who does not repent of their sins and become a follower of Jesus.
…The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.
O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any Mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment…
While few Evangelical preachers can turn a word and speak as eloquently as Edwards, their message is still the same: judgment and Hell await those who do not repent of their sins and follow after Jesus.
Preachers often use what I call the carrot and stick approach. Every person has a choice to make about where they spend eternity. While Calvinists and Arminians argue endlessly over whether we really are free to choose, saving faith does require an act of volition. Every person must choose between Heaven and Hell. Become a follower of Jesus and Heaven, the carrot awaits when you die. Reject Jesus, his salvific work on the cross, and his death-defying resurrection from the dead, then Hell, the stick, awaits you when you die.
Evangelical preachers impress on those under the sound of their voice that it is important to make a decision for Christ NOW! The Bible says in the last part of II Corinthians 6:2:
…behold now is the accepted time; behold now is the day of salvation.
According to Evangelical preachers, none of us has the promise of tomorrow. Proverbs 27:1 states:
Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.
Evangelical preachers are like Larry the Cable Guy. Git ‘er Done! Today, right now, don’t delay.
Some preachers spice up their sermons with illustrations of people who died suddenly or who died after hearing and rejecting the preacher’s warning about God’s judgment and Hell. These stories, true or not, are meant to elicit an immediate response. When I was a preacher, my goal was to press every person who heard my sermon to make a decision. I was of the opinion that there was no such thing as a neutral position. Once a person heard the gospel, heard my sermon, they had a choice to make. Heaven or Hell, which will it be?
A regular reader of this blog sent me a Franklin Graham quote that I think will help illustrate what I am trying to say in this post:
“Death is serious, eternal business. Once our physical hearts beat for the last time, we will instantly find ourselves either in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ in all His splendor, or in the pit of Hell away from His presence.”
There’s the carrot and the stick. Heaven or Hell; choose now while your heart is still beating. The moment your heart stops beating, your eternal destiny is settled.
Think for a moment about what Graham said here about the heart stopping. So, if a person’s heart stops, his eternal destiny is settled? What if his heart is restarted using a defibrillator? Does this mean his eternal destiny is not really settled and he gets another chance to decide, heaven or Hell? For those people who have heart transplants, does that mean that they need to decide again?
The bigger problem with Graham’s statement is that it is bad theology. According to orthodox Christian theology, when people die, they do not go to heaven or Hell. Instead, they go to the grave and will remain there until the resurrection of the dead. Grandma is not up in Heaven running around, nor is she peering over the portals of Heaven watching her grandchildren play. Neither is Christopher Hitchens in Hell, being tormented day and night for daring to mock the thrice-holy God. They are dead, lying in the grave, awaiting the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead.
After the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment will take place and every person will be sent to his or her final reward. And even here, many Evangelical preachers, including Graham, get it wrong. Christians will not spend eternity in Heaven. Instead, they will spend it in the Kingdom of God. Hitchens and the rest of us reprobates? We will not spend eternity in Hell. Instead, we will spend it in the Lake of Fire.
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
And here is an even more interesting point. Isn’t our eternal destiny settled by repenting of our sins and following after Jesus? These texts state that everyone is judged according to their works, that it is works that determine whether Grandma, Hitchens, or anyone else goes to Heaven or Hell.
I wish Evangelical preachers would get together and figure out exactly where it is we are all going when we die. I wish they would determine if it is really up to we to decide? With so much confusion and lack of theological precision, how are poor, lost atheists such as us supposed to determine in what hotel to make my final reservation?
The purpose of this post is to show how confusing and contradictory Evangelical preachers and their theology can be. If they are not precise and clear, can mere untrained, unwashed Philistines such as us have any hope of finding THE Way, Truth, and Life?
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
As I read the comments on this post, I had thoughts about how similar multi-level marketing (MLM) programs are to the various methods and programs Evangelicals use to evangelize people they deem unsaved/lost/unregenerate and headed for hell. This post will detail these similarities.
From 1995-2002, I pastored Our Father’s House in West Unity, Ohio. During my tenure at this church, I had to deal with well-intentioned members and Christian friends who tried to recruit me into their MLM programs. I was an attractive candidate due to the fact that I had a name-filled Rolodex that could be mined for new marks. Always polite and respectful, I never said NO, so this made me an easy target for church members who were involved with selling everything from Amway to long-distance telephone service.
One day the telephone rang and it was Brother Bob (names changed to protect the guilty) calling to ask if he could come over and talk to me about something that he was SURE I would find interesting and exciting; an opportunity to help other people and make money too. I thought, Not again, but not wanting to upset Brother Bob, I said, sure, when would you like to come over?
The next night a new Cadillac pulled into our driveway. Unbeknownst to me, Brother Bob had brought someone else with him. Great, I thought, now I have to deal with Brother Bob AND a stranger. As they came onto our front deck, I opened the door, and putting on the biggest I love Jesus smile possible, I invited them into our spacious, palatial 14’x70′ home on wheels.
Brother Bob was wearing Sunday-go-to-meeting clothes, while the intruder who came with him looked like he stepped out of the pages of a fashion catalog. After trading pleasantries, I invited Brother Bob and the now-I-know-your-name stranger into our expansive seventy-square-foot dining room. Brother Bob sat on one side of the table, I sat on the other side, and the stranger — let’s call him Dick — sat at the head of the table.
Dick relaxed into his chair, putting both arms on the table with hands clasped. In doing so, I couldn’t help but notice his Rolex watch and large diamond ring. These accessories were a perfect match for his calendar model look. From this point forward, Brother Bob didn’t say another word. Dick began talking to me about wants, needs, and desires, focusing on the accrual of wealth and material goods. At this point, he had not yet told me WHY he and Brother Bob were there. Having evangelized hundreds of people over the years, I knew Dick was trying to make me think that we were friends and that we had common wants, needs, and desires. He regaled me with stories about how his standard of living had mushroomed since he joined — are you ready? drum roll please — AMWAY.
Dick asked if I had ever heard of AMWAY. I told him I had, but that didn’t stop him from giving me a well-rehearsed speech about the history and wonders of AMWAY. After thirty minutes or so, Dick thought it was time to close the deal. He asked me if I wanted to earn more money and improve my standard of living — offensively assuming that there was something wrong with my current lifestyle. Dick reiterated all that Amway had done for him, sure that I would want the same things. Imagine his surprise when I told him that I really wasn’t interested in accumulating material goods.
Dick had said he was a Christian, so I was somewhat surprised that he didn’t know that the Bible said:
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. (Matthew 6:19-21)
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. (1 John 2:15-17)
I shared with Dick my view of wealth and material goods, and it became quickly clear to him that I was NOT a prospect for AMWAY. Dick quickly ended his attempt to hustle me, saying to Brother Bob that it was time for them to go to their next appointment. I shook hands with them, walked them to the door, and off into the night they went looking to suck the blood out of other friends of Brother Bob.
Over the course of fifty years in the Christian church and twenty-five years in the ministry, I knocked on the doors of thousands of homes as I followed the Bible mandate to preach the gospel from house to house. My goal, regardless of the church I pastored, was to knock on the doors of every home in the community, introduce myself, and, if possible, share the gospel. I also encouraged church members to get me into the homes of their lost loved ones so I could share with them the wondrous good news that Jesus Saves!
I believed throughout my years in the Christian church that every person in the world needed to hear the gospel. While my fervor waned in later years, I still considered it my duty and responsibility to put a good word in for Jesus whenever possible. It always troubled me that OTHER Christians (and pastors) didn’t seem as bothered as I was about the lostness of their family, friends, and neighbors. Despite hearing and knowing the gospel, most church members showed little interest in getting others saved. I suspect most members viewed me as some sort of hired gun trained in the art of winning souls. Content to invite the unsaved to church so they could hear me preach, church members busied themselves with building a kingdom on this earth. No matter how often I attempted to raise an army to wage war against sin and the devil, most members were content to let me and a handful of other zealots do all the evangelism.
Think for a moment about soulwinning Evangelicals and the preachers of the various MLM gospels. The methodology, techniques and promises are quite similar:
Both attempt to befriend people in hopes of getting them to buy what they are selling.
Both attempt to manipulate emotions in hopes of making people sympathetic to their sales pitch.
Both attempt to bolster their sales spiel with stories of how wonderful their lives are since getting saved/joining MLM program.
Both attempt to appeal to prospective customers with promises of a better life.
Both promise lives of meaning, purpose, and helping others.
Both attempt to impress on people the importance of making an immediate decision.
Both leave literature if people want to think about it or are unwilling to make an immediate decision
I am sure there are other connections. If you think of any, please share them in the comment section.
I am sure that Evangelicals will object to how I have painted their evangelistic efforts, but the fact remains Evangelicals are salespeople with a product to sell: forgiveness of sin, salvation, and a home in Heaven. This product purportedly offers purchasers joy, happiness, meaning, and purpose. The difference between what Evangelicals are selling and what the MLM zealots offer is that Evangelicals attempt to sell an invisible product that may not pay off until after death. Those who buy into the Jesus Saves® program must exercise faith, believing that, in the end, the multi-level marketer in the sky — Jesus — will move them to the top of the MLM pyramid, granting them a beautiful new mansion along streets of pure gold. With AMWAY, at least, converts can — in this life — judge the quality and truthfulness of its claims. This is why most people drop out of MLM programs, while most Evangelicals stay in their program until the end. Imagine what might happen if people required Jesus’ soul-saving MLM program to pay out BEFORE death. Why, most people would abandon Evangelical churches in short order.
As long as Evangelical churches promise things that can only be gained AFTER death, people will hang on, hoping that after their demise, they will cash in their eternal lottery ticket. While religion certainly has (for some people) utilitarian value, I do wonder if people would spend time going to church, giving their money, and attempting to live according to the teachings of an ancient religious text if there were no divine payoff.
Think back to your Evangelical days. If there was no life after death, no eternal reward, would you have been a Christian? Would you have lived as you did? If this life is all there is, how differently would you have lived your life? Please share your thoughtful ruminations in the comment section.
Last week, I received the index card above in my mail from Tommy Steverson, a 70+-year-old Evangelical man who lives in New Orleans, Louisiana. Today, I received a six-page single-spaced letter from Steverson, along with a tract and tract-like business card.
The tract-like business card is a lame attempt to prove that no human is a “good person.” Titled “The Good Person Test,” the card says:
Place your left thumb on the gold square and leave it for eight seconds. If you are a GOOD person then the gold square will turn green.
The back of the card says, in part, Did you pass the test? The fact is no one can pass the test.
Proof that I am a good person. Prove me wrong! 🙂
Well, that’s a lie. I put my left thumb on the gold square and left it for eight seconds. Low and behold, the square turned green! That means I am a good person. I don’t need to be saved from sin because I’m not a sinner. I am not perfect, but I am, indeed, a good person.
Steverson’s letter is titled “Crispy Critters.” The gist of the letter is that I will one day be a “crispy critter” in Hell unless I repent of my sins and accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Steverson ends his letter with Revelation 21:8 (NIV):
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death
Steverson poses what he calls three salient questions to atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and card-carrying unbelievers (all grammar in the original):
How is it that four different men [the writers of the gospels], and countless eyewittnesses, never recognized or recorded, even “one” instance of pride in Jesus Christ, in three and one half years of his life? How is that possible?
How is it, that four different men, and countless eyewitnesses, never heard of recorded even “one” instance of the words” I’m sorry, I made a mistake or please forgive me, from the lips of Jesus Christ? How is that possible.
How is it, that you probably never recognized any of this yourself? How is that possible?
Let me answer Steverson’s third question. The reason atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and card-carrying unbelievers don’t “recognize your claims” is because they aren’t true. We have no idea who wrote the gospels. They most certainly are not eyewitness accounts. We have no idea what kind of person Jesus was, or if the Jesus of the gospels remotely resemble the Jesus of first-century history. We do know that Jesus was a “man.” Thus it seems reasonable to believe that he had the same passions as the rest of us. The Bible is little more than a fairy tale shaped around a very human first-century man named Jesus.
It’s clear from Steverson’s letter that he is a Fundamentalist Christian who believes the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. This faith claim cannot be intellectually or rationally supported. If Steverson would like to talk about this subject with me, I would be glad to do so. If not, I encourage him to read several of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books. Ehrman is a New Testament scholar at the University of North Carolina. Author of numerous books on the text and history of the Bible, Ehrman disabuses Evangelicals of the notion that the Bible is in any way an inerrant/infallible book written by a supernatural God.
I won’t bother with the rest of Steverson’s long-winded, incoherent rant. New day, same old shit. If you would like to read the complete text of Steverson’s letter:
Steverson signed off saying, “Have a Nice Eternity.” In other words, “Bruce, I hope you enjoy burning in Hell.”
Sigh . . .
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Many Christians — especially those of a liberal/progressive bent — now believe that non-Christians will be annihilated after death. Queasy over the notion of their “Loving” God eternally torturing unbelievers in Hell, these Christians say that God will instead obliterate non-Christians, wiping them from the pages of human existence. Some Protestant Christians think unbelievers will be tortured for a certain amount of time, and then, having satisfied God’s torture-lust, will be burned up and remembered no more.
While it is certainly possible to selectively read and interpret the Bible and conclude that God will annihilate non-Christians, the historic Christian position remains this: God torturing conscious people for eternity. In recent years, thanks to authors such as Greg Boyd, Clark Pinnock, and John Stott, Evangelicals have become more sympathetic towards annihilationism. The question I want to raise in this post is WHY they have become more sympathetic to this view.
What causes staunch, Bible-believing Evangelicals to abandon the doctrine of endless punishment? Have they changed their view as a result of diligently studying the Bible? While I am sure that some Evangelicals have abandoned this doctrine for intellectual reasons, the real reason is more emotional in nature. By carefully examining increasing Evangelical support for same-sex marriage, I think we can understand why many Evangelicals no longer think non-believers will be eternally tortured in Hell (actually the Lake of Fire). Younger Evangelicals — having watched their parents and grandparents turn Evangelicalism into one of the most hated American religions — want to put a kinder, gentler face on Christianity. Many of them — deeply affected by postmodern thinking — have moved leftward, away from the culture war and the endless battles over doctrine. No longer wanting to be viewed in a negative light, younger Evangelicals strive to be accepted by the world. More accepting of evolution and science, tolerant, temperate Evangelicals genuinely want to be liked by others — bristling when lumped in with culture warriors and Fundamentalists.
These worldly Evangelicals know and associate with people older Evangelicals have, in times past, consigned to the flames of Hell. It is hard for them to look at Lesbian Angela, Gay Harper, and Atheist Laura and think these friends of theirs will be endlessly tortured by God. As in the case of LGBTQ people and same-sex marriage, once people actually meet and know people who are happy unbelievers, their viewpoint often changes as well. Their parents and grandparents — fearing contamination by the “world” — walled themselves off from the influences of non-Christians. Younger Evangelicals — often educated at secular colleges — are more comfortable among non-Christians. Once exposed to the “world,” it is unlikely they will return to the Fundamentalism of their Evangelical forefathers.
As atheists, should we be appreciative of the fact that some Evangelicals think God will annihilate us some day, and not endlessly torture us? Ponder for a moment the fact that many annihilationists think God will — for a time — torture unbelievers before turning them into ash heaps. How is this really any better than eternal hellfire and damnation? The fact remains that the Christian God will reward or punish people based on their beliefs. Believe the right things and a home in Heaven awaits. Believe the wrong things and God will erase your name from the book of the living. I get it . . . many Evangelicals are tired of being viewed as mean and hateful, and liberal and progressive Christians are weary of being lumped together with Fundamentalists. However, the fact remains that annihilation is a form of punishment reserved for those who are members of the wrong religious club. This means that good people will be burnt to a crisp for no other reason than that their God was some other deity but Jesus. Forgive me if I don’t find such beliefs “comforting.”
Here’s the good news. Many Christians, having tried on annihilationism for a time, eventually realize that it is just endless-punishment-lite. Once annihilationism is abandoned, universalism awaits. All paths now lead to eternal bliss, so there is no need to evangelize or argue doctrine. Imagine a world without theocratic demands of fealty, arguments over theology, or threats of God’s judgment. Why, such a world would be Heaven on earth — a Heaven where even atheists are welcome.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Today, Donald is back, except his name is now Fred “Uncle Fred” Mullins. Donnie Boy Fred has a grammatical tell, so I knew Donald and Fred are the same person. Further, I suspect Don and Fred is also Tom (please see IFB “Love”) and John I’ve dealt with in the past.
Fred, an anal sex obsessed coward who hides behind pseudonyms and fake email addresses as he rails against the Evangelical-preacher-turned atheist Bruce Gerencser, has abandoned all pretense of “love” and “concern,” with his latest comments. This time, he not only goes after me, but he also goes after Carolyn, my editor, and ObstacleChick, a friend of mine and a guest writer for this site. Fred, who gets an erection just thinking about atheists being tortured by God in Hell for eternity, must be desperate. Unable to reach me with his perverse “love” and “concern,” he’s now trying to threaten my friends into believing in his hateful, violent, homophobic deity.
Since my writing causes Fred to have erotic fantasies about me and my friends, I have blocked him from accessing this site. I am sure, much like a pervert seeking out porn at any cost, Fred will find a way to avoid my block, but until he does he won’t be able to leave any more comments.
What follows are the comments Donnie Boy Fred has sent me today:
Atrocious grammar and spelling in the original.
Comment One
It is highly obvious that Bruce’s heart was never transformed by the Holy Spirit.
A person can preach and profess Christ and still be lost if they are not trusting in him alone.
I’m not his judge but from what I have read it appears bruce was trusting in good morals [ too bad you are not] and his work as a minister. Rather than the shed blood of Jesus Christ through his death,burial and resurrection.
Salvation is by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
He suffered for you! He had his beard tore out his flesh beaten to shreds and spikes driven through his hands and feet.
He hung on the cross is agony for 6 hrs. Died to pay the penalty for sin and three days later rose again to give you eternal life.
Now the Bible talks about the great falling away in the last days. Does that describe Bruce? I do not know.
God’s Word says he remains faithful to us even if we lose faith in him for he cannot deny himself.
I sincerely hope that Bruce was truly saved and just fell into deep satanic deception and will only lose eternal rewards and not his soul.
TRUTH IS: For the follower of Jesus Christ this cesspool of a sinful world that is getting worse by the day is the only hell we will ever know!
For the lost person (atheist,Anti-Christian,those trapped in false religions, those trying to earn salvation through good works and religion) this sick world is the only heaven they will ever know 😭
And if you continue with the choice to live and trust in your sinful self and reject the grace of Christ I strongly suggest you had best try to stay healthy and alive for as long as you can!
On the death bed spit,fart ,scream ,rip the sheets tear the pillow , chew the pillow ,etc to do whatever it takes to stay alive in this world! Because once you slip all the way through you will be in torment unimaginable and will wish your parents never did the deed!
Comment Two
Yes buddy boy God does exist.
And those who practice iniquity like faggot loving will be punished like that Agag obstacleagagchick
Comment Three
Hell is REAL! HOT! And VERY TERRIFYING AND FOREVER! And you and little Carolyn and obstaclechick who also never trusted Christ are not going to like it.
Comment Four
Satan (and yes buddy rough he is REAL) now has most of the USA and world convinced that this sick demonic atrocity is “Normal “. And “love”. While precious souls lost in homosexuality pour into hell and he and every demon laugh their heads off!! 😡😡
However Jesus Christ has saved many out of this trap! Two good friends of mine have been saved out of it. Through Christ using the XXXXXXX ministry.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Every Evangelical-turned-atheist has had a Christian zealot pose to them the question, what if you are wrong? Over the past thirteen years, I’ve been asked this question numerous times. Devoted followers of Jesus genuinely fear for my soul and don’t want me to be tortured by their God in Hell for eternity, so they hope by asking this question they can get me to reconsider my decision to divorce Jesus.
This question is often followed by some form of Pascal’s Wager. Of course, those asking the question don’t realize the hypocrisy of their query. As practicing Christians, shouldn’t they be joining the Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, and every other religion that says there is some sort of life after death? Shouldn’t they make sure all their bases are covered? Christians want to hold me to a different standard from the one to which they hold themselves. They are certain the Christian God is the one and only true God, so they see no reason to ask of themselves, what if I am wrong? Even among Christians, there are countless Christianities, with widely differing beliefs and practices. Which Christianity is True Christianity®? The Baptists think their version of Christianity is True Christianity®, and the Church of Christ, Roman Catholicism, and Greek Orthodoxy do too. Two thousand years in the making and Christians can’t even agree on basic beliefs such as salvation, baptism, and communion. Yet, rarely does any of them contemplate that they could be w-r-o-n-g.
Could I be wrong about God, Jesus, Christianity, the Bible, and the plethora of other gods humans have created since they were able to walk upright and reason? Sure, and I could say the same about many of the things I consider factual or true. As one who values science and the scientific method, my belief in God or lack thereof is based on evidence and probabilities. While I self-identify as an atheist, I am agnostic on the God question. It is possible that a God of some sort could reveal itself to one or more humans at some future point in history. Possible, but not likely. As things now stand, I see no evidence that would lead me to conclude that a God of some sort exists. While science has not answered the first-cause question and may never do so, it has built an intellectually satisfying explanation of the world we live in. While this explanation frequently changes thanks to new evidence, I see no reason to retreat into the pages of an outdated, contradictory book written by unknown authors thousands of years ago. Just because science doesn’t have the answer to every question doesn’t mean that God is the answer. Scientists are willing to say, I don’t know, and then they go about trying to find out what they don’t know. When is the last time a Christian theologian, Catholic Pope, Muslim cleric, or Evangelical preacher has done the same? Certainty breeds arrogance and ignorance, both of which lead to people accepting as fact the most outlandish of ideas (i.e. virgin birth, resurrection from the dead, Hell in the center of the earth, Heaven in the sky, creationism, miracles, perfect religious texts).
When it comes to the Christian God, the Muslim God, the Jewish God, or any of the other extant Gods humans currently worship, I am quite confident that these gods are no gods at all. Is it possible that these gods exist? I suppose there is a minuscule chance, but the odds are so infinitesimal that it would be a waste of my time to even consider it. Life is too short to spend one moment of time considering the existence of Odin, Zeus, Lugh, Dagda, Haniyasu-hiko, Jesus, Kane, Pundjel, El Elyon, Shamayim, Guamansuri, Wakan-Tanka, Bochica, Lao-Tien-Yeh, Altjira, Loki, Atlas, Coyote, or any of the thousands of other gods humans have at one time or another conjured up (see God Checker: Your Guide to the Gods).
I live without fear of Hell or fear of being judged by a God. (I do, however, at times, fear God’s followers.) The hell and judgment that I see on this earth come from the hands of humans, not a deity. If there is a God, he is definitely AWOL. Someday, I will die and I think that will be the end of it for me. What if I am wrong? What if there is a God waiting to settle the score with me after I draw my last breath? I guess I will say, oops, my bad, and I hope she will look at my life and judge me accordingly. I hope she will judge me not by the things that I did or did not believe, but by how I lived my life.
Many Christians, especially those of the Evangelical persuasion, believe that salvation is secured by believing the right things. While they love to talk about love and grace, the true foundation of their faith is a commitment to certain beliefs and propositions derived from their understanding of the “infallible” Bible. Believe the wrong things and Hell will be your eternal resting place. Virtually every Evangelical who stops by my blog to spar with me tries to get me to believe the “right” beliefs. Rarely does any one of them say anything about how I live my life. BELIEVE THIS AND THOU SHALT LIVE, is their gospel.
If not believing Jesus is the virgin born, second person in the Trinity, who came to earth, lived a perfect life, worked miracles, died on the cross and resurrected from the dead, and ascended back to heaven, ends with my rendition to the Lake of Fire to be tortured day and night by the God who created me, so be it. I have no interest in such a religion, and I have no interest in such a God who is only interested in what I believed and not how I lived.
If, somewhere beyond my next breath, I keel over and die and I find myself in the presence of the Big Man of Upstairs, I hope he will judge my life by how I lived, and if he does, I am confident that everything will be just fine. If not, if what I believed is what really mattered, then I guess I will burn in Hell with a lot of other good people. Coming soon to a corner of Hell near you, The Hitch and Bruce Almighty Podcast.
Two of my favorite cartoons:
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I am certain you are far more intelligent a man than I am, so I do not wish to debate you.
Thank you for recognizing my intellectual greatness. 🙂 All kidding aside, I am just an everyday Joe, a man who tries to help those who have doubts and questions about Christianity or who have already left the faith.
I am not an evangelist for atheism. I have no interest in evangelizing Christians, hoping to convert them to the holy trinity of reason, skepticism, and humanism. I am just one man with a story to tell. Perhaps you should ponder why my story resonates with so many people?
My fifty years in the Christian church and twenty-five years in the ministry have given me deep insight into and understanding of Evangelical Christianity. I try to use what I know to help those who are trying to escape the hold Evangelicalism has on their lives.
I am grateful that many people have found my writing helpful. Some of the people I have helped deconverted and are now atheists or agnostics. Others moved on to kinder, gentler forms of Christianity or other religions altogether. At no time in the past fourteen years have I told some they had to become an atheist lest they face watching A Christmas Story on an endless loop for eternity — a true hell if there ever was one.
I was rejected by two independent fundamentalist Baptist congregations in two different states, but I stand in their defense.
Consider yourself lucky. The Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement is a cult. It will be a good day when the movement shrivels up and dies. In fact, I hope one of my thirteen grandchildren live long enough to hold a pillow over the face of IFB church movement as it lies on its death bed gasping for air. I hope my grandchild will say to them, “this is for Grandpa and Nana and countless other people you have misused, abused, and harmed.”
They are going out of their way to send a few to heaven, while you are going out of your way to send a few more to hell.
There is no Heaven or Hell. Do you have any evidence that proves otherwise? Outside of what unknown ancient authors wrote about a Heaven and Hell, we have no evidence for their existence. I reject the Bible out of hand. The only Hell I am trying to deliver people from is the very real and present hell caused by Fundamentalist religions.
I can’t for the life of me understand why, disgruntled as you are, you would go out of your way to take a personal hand in someone’s trip to eternal punishment.
I am not disgruntled. Bad word choice, Robert. I am quite happy in life — chronic pain and illness aside. I’m only disgruntled when the Bengals lose or the Reds trade away yet another player. The Bengals put a beatdown on the Steelers yesterday, so I am one happy fella.
I am an atheist, so I don’t believe in the existence of God, Satan, Heaven, Hell, or eternal punishment. Just because the Bible says something doesn’t mean it’s true. The Bible is not inerrant or infallible. Written by men, it is filled with errors and contradictions. Why should any of us pay attention to anything the Bible says?
If you have not read any of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books, I encourage you to do so. Ehrman is a renowned New Testament scholar. I think you will find his books enlightening. Let me know what you think.
You ought to repent of this attitude and behavior while you are yet alive and repair your relationship with a God who undoubtedly still loves you, and stop taking an active hand in encouraging others to sin against a Holy God and ensuring their damnation.
No God. No sin. No Heaven. No Hell. No damnation. No relationship.
I am quite happy where I am, as I am. You have said nothing in your comments, Robert, that would remotely entice me to return to Christianity. Sorry, but thousands of people have come before you, slinging the same empty religious words, invectives, and judgments. You are going have to do better than this. Better yet, pray and ask God to reach down into my cold, hard, darkened heart and save me. Surely, God is able to do so, right? Why send middlemen? Jesus knows where I live. He even has my cellphone number and email address. Text me Hey-zeus and we will meet for lunch.
Shame on you, sir.
For what, telling my story or sharing my opinions about Evangelical Christianity? What is shameful about what I do? I keep my pants zipped, unlike the Evangelical preachers featured in the Black Collar Crime Series.
You have all the information you need to attack me for making this statement, but I assure you that there is very little left to attack. Good day, sir. And may you recognize your error while there is still time.
Do you feel persecuted, Robert? Really? Aren’t you the one who chose to comment on this site? I am the one who should feel “persecuted.” But, I don’t. Every Evangelical commenter gets one chance to share what the dead Jesus has laid upon their hearts. You have had yours. I hope you said everything God wanted you to say. (Please see Comment Policy.)
In your cynical statement about the seemingly unseen “book of rules,” you failed to mention that they ultimately came from a God who loves you, and has your best interest at heart.
All I did was share a list of the rules I heard preached in IFB churches over the course of fifty years. No cynicism, just facts. These rules were not uttered by Jesus/God/Holy Spirit. They came straight from the mouths of preachers — the only true gods of IFB churches.
Please look at the list and provide Bible prooftexts for each rule. Not inferences, interpretations, or opinions. What I want to see are the words straight from the mouth of God. Good luck, Robert.
My question is: Are you judging all IFB pastor’s and deacons by the standards you kept for yourself in the pulpit for forty-five years?
I am not judging anyone. All I am doing is telling my story, recounting past beliefs and experiences. If the shoe fits, wear it. No one is forced to read this blog. Whosever will let him read.
Or are you judging them by God’s word, which likely looks unfavorably on you? I may yet end up in Hell myself, but I won’t see you there, nor will you see me. We will be far too busy with other concerns of self to think about the presence of other’s we might by then hope would be there with us.
I have no worries about Hell or eternity. One life twill soon be past and then we are dead. End of story. I suspect I will be dead soon. I have come to terms with my mortality. I hope I live five or ten more years, but if I don’t I am confident that the only thing I will experience when I die is darkness and nothingness — much like when I came into the world.
What did you hope accomplish with your comments? Surely you know that nothing you can say will lead me back to Jesus. That ship has sailed.
Thank you for commenting.
A sinner saved by reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Evangelicals believe the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. It is not a truth, it is THE truth. Who created the universe? The Bible has the answer. Who is the one true and living God? The Bible has the answer. What is sin? The Bible has the answer. What happens to us after we die? The Bible has the answer. Is there a Heaven and a Hell? The Bible has the answer. What must a person do to be forgiven by God and delivered from sin? The Bible has the answer. As the old junior church classic goes:
The B-i-b-l-e, yes that’s the book for me
I stand alone on the Word of God
The B-i-b-l-e
BIBLE
If every person who has ever lived, past present, and future, ends up in either Heaven or Hell after death, it’s very important for us to know exactly what God’s Word has to say on the matter. Are there certain sins that will keep a person out of Heaven and guarantee them a bunk in Hell with Christopher Hitchens, Steven Hawking, Richard Dawkins, and Bruce Gerencser? (Please see Christopher Hitchens is in Hell.) It’s at this point that many Evangelicals begin to play dumb, suggesting that it is up to God to judge someone. But wait a minute, isn’t the Bible the Word of God? Aren’t its words so clear that even a child can understand them? If the most important decision people will ever make is to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, shouldn’t prospective Christians be able to go to the Bible and find out exactly what sins will keep them out of Heaven?
Well, the Evangelical says, really it’s only the sin of unbelief that sends a person to Hell. Really? Is that what the inspired, inerrant, authoritative Word of God says? Shouldn’t everything, especially those issues that have eternal import, be judged and determined by the Holy Bible? Surely, God is clear on this matter, yes?
Many Evangelicals genuinely want to be thought of as nice people (and some delight in being assholes). They want to be respected and thought well of. So, when confronted with those who reject Jesus and live in a way that is contrary to the teachings of the Bible, they often refuse to say, as Jesus did, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Many of the people who once called me pastor or preacher have a hard time believing and saying, Bruce Gerencser, you are headed for Hell. They cannot fathom that the man who once preached to them the unsearchable riches of Christ and pointed them to Jesus and his saving grace is now an atheist headed for Hell. Some even go so far as to say that I am still a Christian.
The Bible has several lists of sins that will keep a person out of Heaven and earn them a lifetime all-expense-paid vacation in Hell. Let’s take a look at what GOD says about the matter.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This passage says the following people will go to Hell after they die:
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
This passage says the following people will go to Hell after they die:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
This passage says the following sins will guarantee a person a bunk in Hell after they die:
Adultery
Fornication
Uncleanness
Lasciviousness (wantonness, sensuality)
Idolatry
Witchcraft (drug use)
Hatred
Variance (quarrelsome, contentious)
Emulations (envy, jealousy)
Wrath
Strife
Seditions (dissension, division)
Heresies
Envyings
Murders
Drunkenness
Revellings (partying, rioting)
And such like (covering anything else we later make a sin)
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
This passage says the following people will go to Hell after they die:
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
This passage deals with those whom God has given over to a reprobate mind. Most Evangelicals believe a reprobate is a person who cannot be saved, a person whom God has turned his back on. The reprobate, thanks to a hard heart, is guaranteed a place in Hell. What sins are the mark of a reprobate?
Vile affections (homosexuality)
Filled with unrighteousness
Fornication
Wickedness
Covetousness
Maliciousness
Envy
Murder
Debate
Deceit
They are whisperers, backbiters, and haters of God, who are:
Despiteful
Proud
Boasters
Inventors of evil things
Disobedient to parents
Without understanding
Covenantbreakers
Without natural affection
Implacable
Unmerciful
Reprobates not only do these things, they take pleasure in doing so. They sin with gusto!
The Bible is quite clear about who won’t be in Heaven. Evangelicals don’t need to play dumb or stammer. All they need to do is point people to these verses. God has spoken! And why they are at it, they might want to re-read these passages. If we take God at his word, it seems quite clear that there will be NO Evangelicals in Heaven, either. Think about all the Christians you know and the people you once attended church with. Think of the men who were once your pastor. Think about your Christian family. Aren’t all of them mentioned in one of these five Scripture passages?
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The next time you come in contact with Evangelical zealots, ask them if they have sinned. If they say YES, then quote the Good Book, telling them that:
Anyone who commits sins is of the Devil
Whoever is born of God does not commit sin
If they have sinned, then that means they are of the Devil, are not a child of God, and are headed to Hell like the rest of us unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines.
Just remember, it’s in the B-i-b-l-e.
Evangelicals have all kinds of explanations and justifications for why these verses don’t mean what say. Be prepared to be taken on a wild goose chase, with discussions meant to explain away or obfuscate the clear, unadulterated meaning of the Bible.
Bruce Gerencser, 67, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 46 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
