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Questions: Bruce, Why are Many Evangelical Pastors Against Watching TV?

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I recently asked readers to submit questions to me they would like me to answer. If you would like to submit a question, please follow the instructions listed here.

Ben asked, “One thing I’ve wondered about is those pastors who were against television. When they said that television was the destruction of America’s families, did they mean just the sexiest, most vile things on today, or television in general (the latter meaning that it was an immorality and sin, no matter how much sex or violence there was)?”

Few Evangelicals these days are totally anti-television. In fact, I suspect most Evangelicals watch the same programs unsaved people do, albeit with a lot more fear and guilt. Evangelical preachers still preach against what they deem immoral on TV.  Societal acceptance of homosexuality, same-sex marriage, and living together alarms many Evangelicals. That these “sins” are portrayed as healthy and normal on countless TV programs concerns more than a few of God’s chosen ones, but come Sunday night, many of these same people will watch sexually perverse shows such as The Deuce or Game of Thrones. They might ask Jesus to forgive them for putting wicked things before their eyes, but come the next Sunday they will continue to imbibe in all things GOT and watch Eileen “Candy” Merrell (brilliantly played by Maggie Gyllenhaal) make porno flicks.

Groups such as the Parents Television Council, the American Family Association, and One Millions Moms are quite vocal about TV programming, but these fringe groups hardly represent the viewing habits of most American Christians. Generally, Evangelicals are quite conversant in modern culture. This reveals that they read the same books, visit the same websites (including YouPorn), and watch the same television programs as the unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines of the world.

I am sixty-one years old. I grew up in a day when Bonanza, Leave it to Beaver, The Rifleman, Gomer Pyle, and Bewitched, to name a few, were standard TV fare. I loved shows such as Rat Patrol, Hogan’s Heroes, and MASH. We have come a long way since these days. What was hidden subtly and or referenced with double entendres fifty years ago is now front and center. Evangelicals are correct when they say that things have changed and what was once only spoken of in secret is now on the TV screen for all to see. That said, we live in a day when TV programming is better than it ever has been. Thanks to companies such as HBOShowtime,  and AMC, we now have for our consumption thrilling first-rate programming. Yes, there’s a lot more sex and bloody violence, but that’s life, is it not? Hiding the fact that the character played by John Wayne had sex outside of the bond of marriage presents a warped view of the world. Humans have sex, lots of it. Heterosexuals and LGBTQ people alike have sex. Why not portray life as it is instead of pretending that everyone loves Jesus, is morally pure, and never says curse words?

What Evangelical preachers want is a return to the 1950s. They pine for the days of June and Ward Cleaver and their two sons. Fundamentalist to the core, these arbiters of morality want a black-and-white world where everything is defined by the teachings of the Bible. Those days are long gone, never to return. If Evangelicals don’t like what’s on hellivision, they can turn it off. It really is that simple. Or they can watch “Christian” television. There are scores of Evangelical/Catholic/Mormon television channels, yet most Christians never watch them. Why is that?

Let me conclude this post with an article I wrote in January of 2016. Titled, The Preacher and His TV, this post details the struggles and battles I had with television.

dehann-quote

In the 1960s, when I was a child, my Dad would drop my siblings and me off at the Bryan Theater so we could watch the 25-cent Saturday afternoon matinee. But somewhere in my primary school years, going to movies became unacceptable. From that point forward, outside of attending a drive-in movie one time at age 18, I didn’t go to a movie theater again until I was in my late 30s. As a Christian, I believed that going to or renting movies was supporting Hollywood, an institution that I considered a den of iniquity.

In the late 1990s, having become more “liberal” in my thinking, I decided it was time for the Gerencser family to go to a movie. When I told Polly that we were all going to the drive-in to see a movie, she was appalled. She literally thought that God was going to strike us dead. Well here we are, all these years later, still among the living. Evidently, God didn’t seem to care about us going to the drive-in. By the way, the first hardcore, violent, nudity-laden movie we saw was George of the Jungle! The Second? Air Bud.

I grew up in a home that always had a television. My Mom told me one time that American Bandstand was my babysitter. The first memory I have about television is watching the Beatles first appearance on The Ed Sullivan Show. I remember my Dad coming home with what I later in life called the “poor man’s color TV.” It was a colored, plastic sheet that Dad taped to the TV screen. The top of the sheet was blue and the bottom was green. Supposedly, the screen was meant to simulate sky and grass. Dad wasn’t impressed and we quickly went back to watching black and white TV. The Gerencser family didn’t own a color television until sometime in the 1970s.

My wife and I married in 1978. One of our first purchases was a used tube console color TV that we purchased from Marv Hartman TV in Bryan, Ohio. We paid $125. We continued to watch TV for a few years, until one day I decided that watching TV was a sin. This was in the mid-1980s. After swearing off watching TV, I decided that no one, if he were a good Christian anyway, should be watching television. One Sunday, as pastor of Somerset Baptist Church in Mt Perry, Ohio, I preached a 90-minute sermon on the evils of watching television and going to the movies. I called on all true Christians to immediately get rid of their TVs and follow their preacher into the pure air of a Hollywood-free world.

To prove my point, I gathered the congregation out in front of the church for a physical demonstration of my commitment to following the TV-hating Jesus. I put our TV in the church yard and I hit it several times with a sledge-hammer, breaking the TV into pile of electronic rubble. Like the record burnings of the 1970s, my act was meant to show that I was willing to do whatever it took to be an on-fire, sold-out follower of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Just before I hit the TV with the sledge-hammer, a church member by the name of Gary said to me, Hey preacher, if you don’t want that TV I’ll take it. How dare he ruin my sin-hating demonstration! I thought at the time. I gave Gary a scowling look and proceeded to knock the devil right out of the TV. I am happy to report that not one church member followed in my TV-hating footsteps.  What church members did do is make sure that their televisions were OFF when the man of God made an appearance at their home.

calvin and hobbes tv

In the early 1990s, I would, from time to time, rent a television from a local rent-to-own business. Two times come to mind: the World Series and the 1991 Gulf War. Outside of that, my oldest three children grew up in a television-free home. They were teenagers: 18, 16, and 13, before they watched TV (except for watching Saturday cartoons when they were little). Well, this isn’t entirely true. When they visited their grandparents, they were permitted to watch TV (even though I wasn’t happy about them doing so). Like Amish children, they were mesmerized by Disney movies and cartoons.

After our family attended their first movie, I decided I would buy a television, setting in motion seven years of what any competent psychologist would call bizarre behavior. While what I am about to share will sound hilarious to those who never spent any time in Christian Fundamentalism, at the time, there was nothing humorous about my actions.

From 1998 through 2005, I purchased and got rid of at least six television sets. I gave one TV to the local crisis pregnancy center. I also gave one set to my son. The rest I sold at a loss. Why all the televisions? you might ask. Simple. After watching TV for a time, like a moth to a flame, I was drawn towards watching shows that I promised God I would never watch. Dear Lord, I promise I will only watch G or PG rated programming, and if there is any nudity, cursing, or gore I will immediately turn off the TV. No matter how much I wanted to be holy and righteous, I found that I loved watching programs that contained things that I considered sin.

My “sinning’ would go on for a few weeks until the guilt would become so great that I would say to God, you are right God. This is sin. I will get rid of the TV and I promise to never, never watch it again. Out the TV would go, but months later I would get the hankering to watch TV again and I would, unbeknownst to Polly, go buy a television.

It is clear now that my beliefs made me mentally and emotionally unstable. I so wanted to be right with God and live a life untainted by the world, yet I loved to watch TV. One time, after I came to the decision to get rid of yet another TV, Polly arrived home from work and found me sitting on the steps of the porch, crying and despondent. I hated myself. I hated that I was so easily led astray by Satan. I hated that I was such a bad testimony. Look at ALL that Jesus did for me! Couldn’t I, at the very least, go without watching TV for the sake of the kingdom of God?

I have written before about my perfectionist tendencies. I wanted to be the perfect Christian. God’s Word said to abstain from the very appearance of evil. Psalm 101:3 was a driving force in my life: “I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.” Television was a wicked thing, I told myself, yet I continued to battle with my desire to watch sports and other programs on TV. Needless to say, the advent of internet, brought into our home a new way for me to be tempted to sin against the thrice holy God I pledged to serve, even unto death. I’m sure that my children will remember me putting a sign above our computer that quoted Psalm 101:3. This was meant as a reminder that we should NEVER view inappropriate, sinful things on the internet.

My three oldest children, now in their 30s, continue to rib me about my TV-crazed days. One of them will periodically ask if I am ready to get rid of our flat-screen TV. Their good-natured ribbing hails back to the day when their Dad acted like a psycho, buying and selling televisions. At the time, I am sure they thought I was crazy, and I wouldn’t blame them if they did.

calvin and hobbes tv 2

Where was Polly in all of this, you ask? She was the dutiful, submissive wife who believe her God-called, on-fire, sold-out Christian pastor of a husband knew best. Polly rarely watched TV, so having one didn’t matter to her. I was the one who “needed” to watch TV. As I now psychoanalyze this period of my life, I think watching TV was my way of being normal. Serving a sin-hating God and preaching to others a rigorous morality meant that I had to live a Christ-honoring, sin-free life. Again, in light of the atoning work of Jesus on my behalf, I thought that forsaking the pleasure of the “world” was but a small price to pay for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Yet, I wanted to be like everyone else, so I would come home after a long day of studying for my sermons and visiting church members, and leave God sitting on the front porch. Watching TV was my way of unwinding after work days which were often 12 hours long. While I still was selective about what I watched, my attempts to avoid “sinful” viewing rarely kept me from watching whatever I wanted to watch, especially after the children went to bed. Over time, my guilt levels would increase, ultimately leading to the behaviors outlined in this post.

In 2006, eighteen months before I deconverted, I finally put an end to my battle with the television. I decided, God be damned, I was going to own a TV and watch whatever I wanted to watch. From that point forward, we have owned a TV. While I have continued to buy televisions, my purchases are driven by resolution, refresh rate, and screen size, and not the thought that God was going to strike me dead for seeing a naked woman on TV. (We now own two televisions: a 43-inch and 32-inch LED Vizio TV.)

Several years ago, as we were watching an episode of True Blood, I turned to Polly and said, who would of thought that we would be sitting here watching bloody, naked vampires having sex?  We laughed together, both grateful that the preacher had finally been delivered from the demon of TV.

Note

List of article and videos about the sin of watching hellivision and going to the movies. This list was compiled by a devoted follower of the late Jack Hyles.

About Bruce Gerencser

Bruce Gerencser, 61, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 40 years. He and his wife have six grown children and twelve grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist. For more information about Bruce, please read the About page.

Bruce is a local photography business owner, operating Defiance County Photo out of his home. If you live in Northwest Ohio and would like to hire Bruce, please email him.

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36 Comments

  1. Avatar
    Cheezits99

    When I was in the IFB, I cheated like crazy when it came to TV. I watched South Park and Breaking Bad. Yeah I felt guilty too. You see my husband never got saved or drank the religious Kool-Aid and he liked to watch TV. At the IFB they told me to bust up my TV and throw it away and not get brain washed. The deliverance ministers and online fundies told me not to get brainwashed by the new world order and predictive programming. So embarrassed I used to believe in that crap. I am glad to watch TV now and have some down time without all the guilt, and watch documentaries, Better Call Saul, The Simpsons, Snowfall, etc etc.

    Like you, I would try to be “good” and repent after the latest Breaking Bad episode or Three’s Company rerun or Law and Order, and watch only neutral cooking shows, and news etc. I drove myself crazy, thinking Big Brother Jehovah was getting mad at my TV watching.

  2. Avatar
    ObstacleChick

    As a kid growing up in the 80s, my friends and I became savvy at knowing which parents were permissive in our churches circle. The mom of one of my friends could be counted on to let us watch just about anything on TV, and sometimes she would take us to movies (that is how I got to see “Return of the Jedi” after my mom became religious and convinced that aliens are demons so no more Star Wars). I never could manage to see “E.T.” until I was an adult. My aunt and uncle had no religious hangups, so my grandfather and I would watch MTV at their house (grandpa was a Baptist deacon but an avid musician, and Grandma banned MTV from the house – he and I would watch some movies she seemed inappropriate on TV, but he couldn’t get away with MTV). Still, despite being able to partake in some pop culture, there are some cultural references I still don’t understand due to living in a fundamentalist household during the 80s.

    One good thing about not being fundy is that we can judge a movie or show based on how well it is done, not on its “glorification of God”.

  3. Avatar
    Justine

    I laughed when I read about your buying and getting rid of TV sets (1998-2005) because I did the same thing with women’s clothing before I started my gender transition. I would buy skirts, blouses, necklaces and the like. Then, I would decide I should “man up” and throw all my girly stuff away. (I couldn’t give it to anyone, otherwise they’d know my “secret”!)

  4. Avatar
    Matilda

    When we married 50yrs ago, we decided not to have a sinful TV. We had an active church life and relaxed with radio, books or music. Over the years, we just developed a lifestyle without one and never missed it. Only in recent years have we started watching catch-up TV/youtube via computer screen. So my guilty secret was not about watching TV, but about 5yrs ago, when my doubts and dissonances about my fundyism finally bubbled to the surface, I started reading atheist blogs secretly. Then I decided I was being tempted by satan, so deleted them and prayed feebly for forgiveness…but found I couldn’t live without this one and other well-known ones…what a lifeline they are now!

    • Avatar
      Becky Wiren

      Good for you Matilda. Bruce is really great at helping us see the reality of IFB world and really, the entire conservative/evangelical/fundamentalist Christian reality. I’m not an atheist but I’ve stopped calling myself a Christian, as my beliefs tend towards universalism if there is anything at all. (Maybe I’m a theistic agnostic? Or agnostic theist?) I now judge things and try to act on reality, as opposed to faith.

      Anyway, reading this blog and exploring your feelings here is a pretty safe place. Bruce does get trolls, usually IFB Christians who want to rip him to shreds. But he only allows them one or maybe, a handful of comments before he blocks them. And we here frequently argue with them as Bruce has put up with enough crap from them.

      Read Bart Ehrman’s books and/or blog to have your eyes opened all the way. Anyway, good for you Martha.

  5. Pingback:Why are Many Evangelical Pastors Against Watching TV? – FairAndUNbalanced.com

  6. Avatar
    Ben Masters

    Noticed that you addressed what I asked about watching television and why some pastors seem to be against it– just wanted to say thanks for writing this!

    I would also like to clarify what I meant by part of what I asked: when I said “television in general,” I meant anything that has ever been on in the past, or is on now, or will be in the future.

    The reason why I put it that way is that I am autistic, and I take things to heart, which means that whenever I’ve heard a televangelist or other pastor preach against television, I assumed that they were preaching against the whole medium, past and present (which means that, for instance, the way these people talked, you were against Him as much for seeing The Fugitive from 1963 on DVD as you would be for seeing The Flash today on regular television). Would that be far wrong?

    • Avatar
      Brian

      As a son of an IFB inspired minister of the gospel, I would hazard that the meaning inferred regarding TV is ALL TV. The idea is to overwhelm the victim (believer) with extreme views of all kinds: Because TV shows women in modern dress, bathing suits and short skirts, then by relation, all shows are potentially dangerous to the soul and will lead a man to evil. Therefore, best chuck the whole shebang, have TV burnings and book burnings and LP/45/78 record burnings! Best to stay pure as the driven snow.
      Christianity is founded in the sick idea that human beings are evil at heart, that they have stumbled from perfection and need to suffer service to their eternal owner to make things right again. All else that comes out of that basis is part of the package. Perhaps one is able to garner certain good ideas from the black book, maybe certain parts of the poetic sermon on the mount, parts of what Jesus had to say but in my experience, the kool-aid is toxic. I recommend moderation if one chooses to investigate world religions. They feed on harm done to people and produce reptiles like John Piper, The big prick Pearl and his spouse, the Lori Alexander self-harmers and the like.
      To answer your final question, an emphatic NO, that would not be far wrong at all but quite correct. There are many Christians scurrying around with the mad idea that the only book needed in the world is the Bible and they really believe this to be true.

  7. Avatar
    Ben Masters

    Thanks for that response! If that indeed is the case, as you say, then that’s just plain crazy. After all, would I go into the house of a pastor or other evangelical who is against television and say, “Why are you abstaining from this wonderful entertainment medium we call television?! There’s plenty to enjoy!”?

    I most certainly would not!

    Therefore, it upsets me that these pastors/other evangelicals don’t treat the enjoyers the same way– if I’m as right as you say I am, then I’m sure some of these pastors (IFB variety, usually) have seen their parishioners being entertained (possibly on home visits) and have launched into the boilerplate spiel about how just watching television will lead you to a devil’s hell (sex/violence level being irrelevant, as would be the age/time period of what you’re seeing as well). I’ll tell you one thing– I wouldn’t want to be a member of that kind of church any longer!

    • Avatar
      Grammar Gramma

      Ben, Evangelicals are raised to believe that their pastors are Men of God. These men are the Voice of God, and if they say something, they expect to be believed and obeyed. Evangelicals are ingrained in all this from birth, so it’s not a matter of not wanting to be a member of that kind of church any longer. It’s all they know.

  8. Avatar
    Ben Masters

    One other thing came to my mind: about shows that have had more than their share of sexual content (like Charlie’s Angels [1976-81 ABC detective/action series about three braless female detectives and their unseen boss named Charles Townsend], and Three’s Company [1977-84 ABC comedy about three single roommates living in a Santa Monica apartment who go through all manner of romantic and other misunderstandings, often making for much slapstick comedy; this one having the great, late John Ritter, et al.]), sometimes I wonder why those shows were even made in the first place, considering that many pastors, especially in the South and the Bible Belt, railed Sunday in and Sunday out against those shows and similar ones (often in the name of the Bible, and morals, among other things).

  9. Avatar
    Phil Bodi

    Bruce, I do understand you. I was myself an evangelical pastor and I became an apostate, a renegade. But years later, I came back to the Lord and I am following Him again. I am not legalistic, I am just overwhelmed by His love. From now on, I will pray for you, Bruce, for Polly and your children. I want to see you n the Kingdom of God.

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      Phil,

      No, you don’t understand me. You didn’t bother to read any of my autobiographical writing. How could you possibly “understand” me?

      You say you are not “legalistic,” that you are just a person “overwhelmed” by Jesus’ love ❤️ . I bet you are just less legalistic than before. I’ve dealt with countless Evangelicals who say they aren’t legalists. However, when pressed, their legalistic tendencies reveal themselves. I suspect that is true with you too. You are, I assume, still an Evangelical? One can’t be an Evangelical without being a legalist. I’ve written on this subject several times. Seek and ye shall find.

      I have one question 🙋 for you (hat tip to Zoe): do you believe in the existence of Hell 😈🔥? A YES answer tells me all I need to know about you and your religion. If you answer NO, then why do you care about where I go after I die, or where my wife and children go after they kick the proverbial bucket 🪣? If Heaven awaits all of us, I’m fine just the way I am.

      Countless Evangelicals are allegedly praying 🙏 for me. I’ll add your name to the list. With all these prayers coming before Jesus sitting 🪑 in the throne room of God, why am I still unsaved? Perhaps, nothing fails like prayer, or maybe, just maybe these prayers hit the ceiling and go no farther.

      Bruce

      • Avatar
        GeoffT

        I have to confess that I don’t understand the term legalistic in this context, so I’m not as well read on your posts as I thought! Having said which, when your interlocutor refers to having become an ‘apostate’ I suspect he uses a very different definition to the one I would use!

        • Avatar
          Bruce Gerencser

          Geoff,

          Legalism/legalistic is a colloquial term used to describe religious rules/regulations/church standards. People like Phil look at IFB churches and say they are legalistic. His religion is all about grace and love, he says. However when pressed, Phil has religious rules/regulations/church standards he lives by too. Thus, this is just a dick measuring contest.

          I could say a lot more on this subject. Hopefully, I answered your question.

          Bruce

  10. Avatar
    Phil Bodi

    Bruce, yes, I am still Evangelical… About your question if I believe in hell. You see, my friend Bob is a pastor in Sweden..A young man told him : ” I don’t believe in hell” Bob answered : ” Young man, there is no scripture saying: ‘ Believe in hell and you will be saved’ but ‘ Believe in Jesus and you will be saved’. Belief in hell is not a condition for salvation “. I don’t know if you read Blaise Pascal’s Pensées” or “Thoughts”. Pascal was a philosopher, mathematician, physicist, theologian and apologist. He was frequenting gamblers because he was interested in probability calculation. This led him to write his famous ” Le pari de Pascal” ” Pascal’s wager” . If you didn’t read it already, please read it. Now Bruce, you never know, the race is not yet finished. I may still see you in heaven. Prayers Can’t Be Answered Unless Prayed…

    • Avatar
      William

      ‘” Young man, there is no scripture saying: ‘ Believe in hell and you will be saved’

      Hi Phil, what you wrote was very nice, and I enjoyed reading it, it was a style that reminded me somewhat of the gnostic author Paulo Choello.

      The question has to be asked though, in reference to your quote above, saved from what? Because surely the answer if answered straightly would have to be ‘saved from hell’, or whatever else you believe a person is saved from.

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      You tried to sidestep my question with semantics and obfuscation.

      Is there a Hell? Simple question.

      As far as Pascal’s Wager. I’ve “heard” it countless times. It’s a terrible argument. Do an Internet search and find out why.

      What shall we say of people who are okay with a deity torturing people for eternity?

    • Avatar
      Astreja

      Phil, Pascal’s Wager is a sucker bet. It’s a false dichotomy that doesn’t allow for a lot of possibilities, including other deities, and a god that would reward kind non-believers and punish the “believe just in case” types.

      As for believing in hell, if you do believe in hell and worship the god that creates and perpetuates it, your morality is so hideously broken that I wouldn’t trust you to clean a cat’s litterbox.

      • Avatar
        Sage

        You are right, Astreja. To properly use Pascal’s Wager, you must be like Beni Gabor in the movie “The Mummy.” He wagered using every major religion, hoping to cover everything.

        To Phil, I would say you can forget your prayer. Instead of praying, go organize your church to house, clothe, feed, and provide health care to the homeless in your city. Stop worrying about saving souls and start saving and improving lives. If you are t doing that, which Jesus says is the path to eternal reward, then you are just all talk and no action.

        If you want to serve god, clear out your church pews, give homeless a sage space to sleep, and help them however you can. Isn’t it better to serve your community than hold weekly Sunday back patting hype sessions?

        I am so tired of Christians praying for the lost instead of truly caring a d helping others.

        • Avatar
          Phil Bodi

          I need to answer to SAGE.
          As a matter of fact, yes, my wife is helping a lot of people financially and also with food, clothes, etc. she She also visits the destitute, the sick and spends a lot of money, and very often I tag along with her. My original call is to preach the Gospel but after a long absence from ministry, I am not sure how to come back to it. I am not saying I have all the answers. I know Mark Twain was not a believer but I can still quote him :”It ain’t those parts of the Bible that I can’t understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.” Mark Twain
          See, even when I didn’t understand and I still don’t, I never stopped believing.
          The French OT text says in :
          Ecclésiaste 3:11 ►Il fait toute chose bonne en son temps; même il a mis dans leur cœur la pensée de l’éternité, bien que l’homme ne puisse pas saisir l’œuvre que Dieu fait, du commencement jusqu’à la fin.
          “He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet[a] no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.”
          As French people say: “Tu crois ou tu ne crois pas” “You believe or you don’t” so it’s not a matter or arguing, proving. You have faith or you don’t.
          ….
          Turning now to ASTREJA.
          See, my mother’s name was ASTERIA… very close. Now you know that some variations of Protestantism – not so bona fide – as for instance the Seven Days Adventists DO NOT believe in hell . Does it mean you don’t have a problem with them but only with me ? Astreja, you want an intellectual system that makes sense where everything fits, everything is rational and fair… but the Christian faith will not provide you such an answer.
          ….
          BRUCE,
          My sons today follow your line of thought. Two of them besides secular studies went to Bible school and the oldest was playing bass guitar in church. They were all three baptized by immersion. I am not getting discouraged, I pray for you as I pray for my sons. My brother Daniel last time I saw him said: ” Phil, for you and me, this is the last curve before the finish line..”
          ….
          WILLIAM
          I would say “saved from absurdity” “saved from meaninglessness” ” saved from being just dust”. There is a French spiritual song : ” Nés de la poussière et d’Éternité” ” Born from dust and eternity”…

          • Avatar
            Astreja

            Phil, you replied “Astreja, you want an intellectual system that makes sense where everything fits, everything is rational and fair… but the Christian faith will not provide you such an answer.”

            Precisely. My chances of becoming a Christian are zero. 0.00 probability. I see it as morally reprehensible and irredeemably absurd, and I thoroughly enjoy watching its precipitous decline in the Western world.

            That said, if someone else believes in the Christian god and also believes that it would stoop so low as to permit the eternal torture of anyone and worships it anyway, they’ve essentially eliminated themselves as a potential friend. I don’t want people like that anywhere near my life.

          • Avatar
            Sage

            Then your wife is doing it right. How nice that you “tag along”.

            So I ask again, what are you doing to help out people? Maybe my understanding of Jesus teachings is not so perfect as a theologian (whatever that perfection is), it just seems to me that Jesus advocated a ministry of healing, caring, and helping. He even went so far as to tell a great story about sheep and goats, and in that story did not say one word about praying for others or spreading a gospel. Wasn’t it something about doing good for the least of these?

            So if you want the advice of a non believing, non binary, exchristian, talk less and act more. Words are hollow and easy to say. Praying for others is the route people take when they don’t want to do the hard tasks. Those weekly church country club chat sessions are nothing more than a weekly high to feel as if you are doing the right thing.

            Sure, believe as you desire and worship or not worship whatever you please. I have much respect for Christian who make a difference by helping others as fully as they can. I have no respect for Christians who are talkers, prayer warriors, or special club members trying to avoid hell.

    • Avatar
      Michael Mock

      Why do proselytizers always assume that none of us have ever prayed? Where on Earth would you get that idea? That’s not how becoming an ex-Christian works; that’s not how you get from belief to unbelief. It’s not even on the same planet as how these things happen.

      And how in the {insert truly dazzling stream of expletives here} did you manage to come here and presume to preach to ex-Christians while being naive enough to think that none of us had ever heard Pascal’s Wager before? Have you never heard of Russell’s Teapot?

  11. Avatar
    Phil Bodi

    MICHAEL,
    Russell was an agnostic but decided to enter the matter as an atheist. I am not a proselyte. We are just discussing. It’s much more interesting than talking with my fellows.

    • Avatar
      GeoffT

      Phil, atheist and agnostic are not different points on a scale, they’re different scales. Most considered atheists also identify as agnostic, and most serious agnostics are also atheists.

    • Avatar
      Bruce Gerencser

      sigh You, “I am not a proselyte.” Really? Be honest. Don’t you want the readers of this blog to get saved? Why bring up Pascal’s Wager, the post used evangelism tool of all time?

    • Avatar
      Michael Mock

      …If you say so. Other have already commented, but again: this is well-worn ground that you’ve chosen to retread.

      If this is mere discussion, perhaps I’m unclear on the topic. Because despite your claim not to be proselytizing, you sure come across as if you’re trying to convince us that we should adopt some form of Christian belief, and… well… that’s kind of the definition, isn’t it? But at this point you’ve dodged around enough (and I say that with some sympathy as you’re answering several people at once) that if you’re a proselyte then not only am mistaken about where you’re going with this, I’m none too clear on where you’re coming from, either.

      So, for the sake of discussion: what is it, exactly, that you think we need? And why do you think we need it? And why should we believe any of that?

      Because what I’m hearing right now doesn’t sound like a reasoned argument for any sort of belief; it sounds like moving the goalposts every time someone here points out the flaws in one bit of Christian apologetics or another.

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    William

    ‘I would say “saved from absurdity” “saved from meaninglessness” ” saved from being just dust”. There is a French spiritual song : ” Nés de la poussière et d’Éternité” ” Born from dust and eternity’

    ^ so you don’t believe in hell then, ok, but instead see that Jesus gives you a purpose in this life. That’s fair enough, but people who need imaginary people for a purpose tend to be a) vulnerable or b) taking advantage of the vulnerable.

    I mean it’s an imaginary relationship like the girl from afar or the girl in the X rated video, it’s not real, a substitute, and people profit from the videos or dating sites.

  13. Avatar
    Phil Bodi

    William, I know you will not accept it. I mention Blaise Pascal often. One night, he had a profound spiritual experience. He had an encounter with Jesus. This is also my experience, so I could say that if not anymore ” a pie in the sky” for me, but I know, and I know that I know….

Want to Respond to Bruce? Fire Away!

Bruce Gerencser