Recently, I received the following email from an Evangelical man named Fred Flinstone (not his real name). My response is indented and italicized. (All spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original.)
I read your Kenny Bishop piece.
The piece Fred is referencing can be found here: Southern Gospel Singer Kenny Bishop is Now a Gay United Church of Christ Pastor. Bishop is the former heterosexual lead singer of the Southern Gospel group, The Bishops. Kenny went through a lot of personal turmoil in his life, left Evangelicalism, came out as gay, married a man, and is now a United Church of Christ pastor in Lexington, Kentucky. Kenny remains a committed Christian, but is far from his Evangelical roots.
Kenny knew his lifestyle would not fit in Southern Gospel but he still finds way to serve.
Kenny doesn’t have a “lifestyle” any more than heterosexual Fred does. We are who we are. Kenny has chosen a path in life that is best for him, and I applaud his willingness to live openly and authentically, even if I disagree with some of his religious beliefs.
Kenny shouldn’t have to find ways to serve. He should be accepted as he is, but that’s never going to happen with many Evangelicals. Their archaic, anti-human interpretations of select Bible verses keep them from being welcoming human beings. In their minds, God and their peculiar interpretations of the allegedly inerrant, infallible Word of God trump treating people decently and with respect. LGBTQ people are abominable sinners, reprobates who have crossed the line of no return. Much of the violent rhetoric against LGBTQ people is driven by Christians holding to Evangelical (or Mormon and conservative Catholic) beliefs.
Kenny is a gifted musician. That his music is no longer received or listened to by millions of Evangelicals is unfortunate.
He believes as I do, savior above sin! Kenny’s still working.
I guarantee you Bishop does not believe as Fred does, As far as putting Savior above sin, Bishop is a gay man married to another man. According to Evangelical orthodoxy, he has most certainly NOT put Savior above sin.
I don’t know how you become a Former Christian that is still moved by gospel music.
If you want to understand my journey from Evangelicalism to atheism, please read the posts found on the WHY? page. As readers will see in a moment, Fred’s “understander” is broken.
Being moved by music is psychological in nature. I spent fifty years listening to Christian music. It would be odd for me to not find the music familiar, even though I no longer believe what most of the lyrics say. I am moved by all sorts of music. We go to numerous concerts during the year, listening to everything from hard rock to country music. We are quite eclectic musically. Last night, we attended a concert featuring Thompson Square and Walker County. Both my partner and I were “moved” by some of the songs — sometimes to tears. Neither of us is Christian, so God was not the locus of our feelings. How we feel when we hear music is driven by numerous factors, none of which require a deity or a religion.
The fact that it still moves you is a pretty good indication that there’s something still in you.
Of course, there’s still “something” in me. I am a living, breathing, flesh-and-blood human being. Of course, Fred means something different. Maybe God is still living inside of me or the Holy Spirit is still speaking to me, and sometimes he uses Southern Gospel music to “speak” to me. Sure . . . 🙂
The funny thing is Christians that claim they ain’t Christians anymore. That don’t work man! You can’t take that off like a shirt! You going to mess around and die and be pissed you in Heaven?
Here we go . . . According to Fred, I am still a Christian; that once I put on the “shirt” I can never take it off. This is akin to you still being married after you are divorced. I am a former Christian. I once was saved, and now I am not. I categorically and resolutely reject the central claims of Christianity. Jesus was a man who lived and died, end of discussion.
No, Fred is upset that he can’t square my story and that of other deconverts with his theology. That’s his problem, not mine. Perhaps he should rethink his theology or, better yet, just accept the stories of others at face value. When a person tells me he is a Christian, I believe him. I wish Evangelicals would do the same.
I don’t plan on “messing around,” whatever the Hell that means. My “messing around” days stopped in the mid-1970s. I plan on living until I die, and then it is over for me, just like it was for Jesus, the Apostles, and billions of people before me. I am confident no Heaven or Hell awaits me. And if I end up in Heaven anyway, will I be pissed? Maybe. It depends on how many Fred Flinstones live next to me. If I must choose, I prefer Hell with my fellow heathens. Much better company, music, and food. And best of all, no prostrating myself day and night before a narcissistic deity. I do hear, however, that the weather is a bit warm. 🙂
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Several years ago, an Evangelical Christian sent me the following message via Facebook Messenger (all spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original):
The things posted on this very sad antitheistic, misotheistic atheist page is spewing hatred for Jesus Christ whom you say you disbelieve in!
If so why not leave it alone?
Why does this page and other atheist pages exist??
We all know bugs bunny isn’t real.
We all know the tooth fairy isn’t real.
We all know Santa Claus isn’t real.
We all know there is no leprechauns or Easter bunny or Mickey Mouse!
But there is not one page running them down!
Not one group meets in a coffee shop or library or had a convention to run them down and take them out of schools or public venues!
Jesus Christ is God! He is real and this is misotheism not atheism!
He loves you and died and rose again to give you eternal life in heaven and forgiveness of sins.
I pray each person here will eventually allow the Holy Spirit to convict them and will accept his gift!
BEternity separated
Eternity separated from God will be horrendous!
Fire! Screaming and crying and torment! Forever ! No one will get out of hell and yes it is real!
You will curse the day you were born!
You will curse the second you were conceived!!!
You will wish you were murdered (aborted) an atrocity that many of you support!
You will wish your daddy would have pulled out of your momma!
That’s how unimaginably horrible hell will be!
You don’t want to go there and Jesus died for you so you would not have to go there!
God bless!
The sender of this message seems to think that I “hate” God, thus I am a misotheist, and not an atheist. What’s with Christians refusing to let me self-identify? I have never told a professing Christian that he or she is NOT a Christian. I accept at face value their claim of faith in Jesus. It’s not up to me to say, “Oh, you are not a True Christian®.” I leave it to Christians to fight among themselves about who is the real Christian and who is not. I just wish that Christians — Evangelicals, in particular — would respect me enough to accept at face value my story — that I am an atheist. How hard can this be, right?
I don’t hate the Christian God, nor do I hate Satan, Jesus, or countless other deities. Jesus died almost 2,000 years ago — end of discussion. Why would I waste my time hating a dead person? God and Satan, on the other hand, are myths. Again, why would I waste my time hating mythical beings? Such behavior is silly and absurd.
This commenter confuses the deity Christians worship with the beliefs and behaviors of said Christians. My objection is to what is done in the name of God/Jesus. My objection is to the theocratic tendencies of Evangelical churches, pastors, and parachurch organizations. A mythical deity can’t harm anyone. However, works done in his name can, and do, cause psychological and physical harm. (Please see Why I Hate Jesus.)
I will leave Christianity alone when Evangelicals, Mormons, and conservative Catholics retreat to their churches and stop trying to turn the United States into a “Christian” nation. As long as True Christians® attempt to force their theology and interpretation of the Bible on unbelievers, I am going to object. One need only watch former President Trump’s attempt to ingratiate himself to Evangelicals to see how dangerous Evangelical Christianity really is. Who is it that is trying to abolish abortion, LGBTQ rights, same-sex marriage, and is integral to the rise of white supremacy in the United States? Evangelicals. You see, their God is not the problem, they are.
The last part of this man’s message is one assertion after another. Blah, blah, blah … either accept what I am saying or you will forever burn in Hell. I love it when Evangelicals threaten me with God’s punishment and eternal torture. Refuse to repent? God is going to get you! In fact, you will wish you had never been born. Again, blah, blah, blah . . . I have heard such nonsense more times than I can count. God doesn’t exist and Jesus is dead. What do I have to worry about?
I don’t fear what God may do to me any more than I fear Santa Claus making a list and checking it twice, looking to see who has been naughty or nice. It is flesh-and-blood Evangelical zealots I fear, especially those who are gun-toting white supremacists. We need not fear God, but God’s people? Foolish is the person who doesn’t recognize that Evangelicals are an existential threat to our republic; that given enough power, they will either incarcerate or kill atheists, agnostics, pagans, and other unbelievers.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Several years ago, I received the following comment:
I’m a ex-IFBer from bygone years. You’re right there was too much control by pastors but that doesn’t justify slamming Christianity and the Scriptures. Bruce, don’t throw out the “baby with the bath water”. Thousands upon thousands of pastors are faithful and earnest.
Also, an atheist believes nothing created everything; stars, sun, trees, horses, cats, puppies, etc. That’s a scientific impossibility. A painting is proof there was a painter; paintings don’t paint themselves. Neither can creation create itself, therefore creation proves there’s a Creator. You may not believe in the God of the Bible but if you’re intellectually honest you’d have to admit there’s a creator before creation.
This man agrees with my assessment of the authoritarianism found in many Evangelical churches, but he thinks I am throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. I would never throw a baby out with the bathwater. Who does shit like that? All I do is pull the plug out of the tub and drain the water. None of my children or grandchildren has ever been small enough to go down the drain. Just saying . . .
I understand the point people who use this analogy are trying to make. They ignorantly assert that I reject God/Jesus/Christianity all because of certain negative experiences I have had with the church and its clerics. However, as I have stated more times than I can count, most of my experiences as a Christian and as an Evangelical pastor were positive. On balance, I had a happy, productive, satisfying life as a pastor. The reason I am an atheist today is not (primarily) due to negative experiences, but because I reject the central claims of Christianity. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.)
This man conflates me telling my story and my critiques of Evangelical Christianity with “slamming Christianity and the Scriptures.” While my writing is typically pointed and direct, I don’t think it slams Christianity and the Bible. Scores of Evangelicals and mainline Christians regularly read this blog. They frequent this site because some aspect of my writing resonates with them. Can I go overboard sometimes? Sure. But I do my best to be open, honest, and forthright with my words. That some Evangelicals get butthurt is not my problem.
I suspect that this man fled the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement and joined up with what he perceives is a better flavor of Evangelical Christianity. Countless Evangelicals have used this argument with me. What I have noticed is that all they have done is exchange harsh, in-your-face Fundamentalism for a Fundamentalism that is more subtle and nuanced in its extremism. (Please see Are Evangelicals Fundamentalists?)
This man’s comment reveals that he does not have a clear understanding of atheism. He confuses certain scientific beliefs with atheism. Let me educate him about atheism:
Atheism is in the broadest sense an absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.
What atheists believe about science in general, and biology, cosmology, and the other scientific disciplines has little to do with their beliefs about the existence of deities. One can be an atheist and believe all sorts of things, including woo and nonsense. My Gawd, some atheists are Republicans and plan to vote for Donald Trump. Atheism is no cure for ignorance.
This man says that if I am “intellectually honest,” then I have to admit that there was a “creator” before “creation.” In other words, if I don’t believe this, I am intellectually dishonest — Greek for I am a liar. Of course, this man doesn’t just believe in a “creator” of some sort. His email betrays the fact that he is an Evangelical Christian; that he believes that the God (Jesus) of the Protestant Christian Bible is that “creator.” Whether he is a young-earth creationist, an old-earth creationist, or a proponent of unintelligent design doesn’t matter. According to him, the creation story traces its genesis back to the Bible God. As an atheist, I reject such assertions, choosing, instead, to cast my lot with science — real science, not Evangelical theology dressed up as science.
I have long said that I understand someone looking at the universe and concluding that a creator of some sort created it. Snap! I bet this man didn’t see that coming! It pays to actually read what I write instead of reading a few posts about Jack Hyles and Jack Schaap and then commenting. Let me be clear: I intellectually understand how someone can look at the universe and conclude that a deistic God of some sort set everything in motion; that a deistic God of some sort said, “There ya go boys and girls, do with it what you will.” What I reject out of hand is the notion that this creator is the Bible God; the God this man believes in and worships.
In the seventeen years that I have been blogging, no Evangelical has, to my satisfaction, connected the dots between A GOD and THE GOD. Believing the Bible God is the creator is a FAITH claim, not a matter of scientific fact. Either one believes the God of the Bible created everything, or they don’t. I don’t. I do not have the requisite faith necessary to believe that the creation account recorded in the Bible is true. Science tells me Genesis 1-3 is a fictional story, a fable, not scientific fact. How could it be, right? Genesis was written thousands of years before humankind had anything but a rudimentary understanding of the world. Even today, with everything we know, our knowledge has but scratched the surface of understanding.
Evolutionary biology and other branches of scientific inquiry do a good job of explaining the natural world. While scientists have not yet determined who or what was behind “creation,” they continue to seek answers to this question. Pointing to some verses in an ancient religious text or positing intelligent design arguments, which are nothing more than gussied-up creationism, tell us nothing of value. I am content to say, “I don’t know.” In fact, I am content to say, “I don’t care.” Arguments about the beginning of time and the creation of the universe don’t interest me. I am a slowly dying sixty-seven-year-old man. I have a wonderful wife, six mostly wonderful children, sixteen awesome grandchildren, and three loving, annoying, crazy cats. I choose to focus on the here and now. I am confident that the Bible deity is no God at all, that there is no Heaven or Hell, and death is the end of everything. I am confident that the claims of Christianity are false; that original sin and the need for forgiveness and salvation are a con perpetrated on humanity by the purveyors of religion. I have all I need in this life, save a World Series championship for the Cincinnati Reds and a Super Bowl win for the Bengals. If “God” can come through on these things, I just might consider returning to the fold. Until then, I remain a committed, unrepentant agnostic atheist, humanist, and liberal.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Some observations. We have things in common. Not that means much of anything. I see that you enjoying pointing out anecdotal statements expect for when you employ them yourself.
I’ve read some of your website, but I have seen very little that makes you unique and oh how we must be unique. We are both grey. You have me by a few years but who knows how that will end up….. We are both sarcastic. We have both lied and been lied to so many times we can’t honestly blame someone else or adequately defend ourselves as being worthy of followers. I see that you’ve tried that before but you really haven’t given up. You just draw a different crowd now. I imagine just as you once lied to your congregation to gather their approval, you know lie to your current “flock” to gather the same thrill you once had.
It is rather obvious that you enjoy an intellectual battle and you feel as if you’re better at it than anyone else. I’d like to chance to prove you wrong. Do you want to let our “egos” do the talking…… I find it amazing that any intellectual can build a website such as you’ve built, taking pleasure in your accomplishments, as feeble as they are……..at yet fail to recognize the majestic qualities surrounding your life.
If ANY intellectual would honestly compare your website to what God has written all around you…. You must admit that you just can’t compare. Yet, you recognize your own work at the expense of another. So weak and fleeting is your pleasure. Which is really life’s lesson you fail to recognize. Standing “fist clinched” in the face of overwhelming insignificance you possess. You must recognize you are powerless to produce anything lasting and effective by any measure of common sense. Just what good is love if it ends. Just what good is peace if it fails you? You take pleasure in the fleeting moments of your paltry website not considering its inevitable end.
I noticed that you failed to adequately express your hatred for the historical Jesus? Why? Fear? I know, how dare….. whomever….I’m sure you feel contempt rising to your lips or keyboard. I know what I know. If you’ve ever made a real emotional connection with Jesus Christ, it is more than fear. It goes the very root of what you became. So step back, and with unfeigned contempt throw your last ditch hatred at the imaginary…… Can you really do that? Does your intellect fail you?
As is my custom, I let this person know I had publicly responded to his email. Here’s what he had to say in response:
Read your response. I also read the comments from your new followers.
For the record. I didn’t lie to you. This email account is mine. I didn’t spoof anything. The URL’s are different. I respectful appeal to your mistake as a mistake. Don’t let your ego avoid admitting it. [The previous post was corrected to reflect this] Also, I have read much more of your site than you detail. I thought we might have a progress conversation based upon our interactions. It would appear that you’re still a baptist at heart. You prefer your assumptions to what is actually written/said.
When I said you lied, I meant that you lied. What you fail to realize is just how much of an [sic] contemptible man you were to the followers you have now. It would seem you refuse to acknowledge how much of hypocrite you were in your failed attempt to be a “pastor”. I know you live in a fantasy world but you should at least admit that you didn’t have any problem lying to people for decades. What makes you think you’ve got it right now?
You mention how helpful you’ve been to people now… Just another fantasy. If you are wrong, which you are, what makes you believe you’re not lying again? Not that you care. You obviously never have. It is [sic] been “status quo” for you for your entire life. You just exchanged one fantasy for another. I’m just trying to get you to admit your failures. If you really want to get into the details. I’m here.
You missed the point of reference to your creation (website) in comparison to what is around you. Baby steps….
Why do you feel important through your own “creation” attempts in your website and not recognize just how much better…. things are around you? Not calling God down at the moment. I’ll talking about being “self aware”. Do you realize just how weak you are at every level of existence? You don’t need God to understand this. You just need to be honest with yourself. Now go ahead. Tell me how wonderful you are. I suppose that children and grandchildren of you will remember you forever.
As you can see, nothing I said changed this person’s mind. His goal is not to meaningfully interact with me. Instead, he wants to wound me emotionally and psychologically. He is, after all, an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB). Eviscerating people is in their DNA. Just go read the Fundamental Forums Fighting Forum if you doubt my assertion. Note the discussion threads started by treasure_unseen. Over the years, I have engaged thousands of people through this site, via comments, email, and social media. If I had to pick one group of people to be the definition of Christian Assholes, it is IFB pastors, evangelists, missionaries, college professors, and garden variety church members. There’s just something about their beliefs and psychological make-up that turns them into vile, cruel people (and I speak broadly). Granted, I know a number of IFB leaders who are not as I describe here, but I am beginning to think that they are the exception rather than the rule.
When I look at my own life as an IFB preacher, I don’t see a man who was unkind or unloving. I genuinely cared about the people I pastored. I went out of my way to minister to them spiritually and temporally. However, I must also admit that many of my beliefs and my preaching caused psychological harm.
I have long argued that Evangelicalism causes emotional, and, at times, physical harm. It is not a benign religion. I have also argued that Evangelicalism is inherently Fundamentalist. (Please see Are Evangelicals Fundamentalists?) That said, Evangelicalism is a spectrum. On the one extreme, you have people with decidedly liberal/progressive political and theological views. These people are Evangelical in name only, and politically and theologically are much more like mainline Christians than Evangelicals. On the other extreme, we have groups such as the IFB church movement, of which the aforementioned emailer is a member. This end of the spectrum is defined by theological, political, and social rigidity. While this rigidity can be found along the Evangelical spectrum, the IFB church movement is vocal in its demand that True Christians live according to the one true IFB faith.
This rigidity breeds certainty and arrogance, and, unfortunately, it turns people into unloving, unkind assholes. Some of the readers of this blog are former IFB pastors, evangelists, missionaries, and church members. If asked, they can provide countless stories about the ugly nature of the IFB church movement. Many of you have no experience with IFB churches and pastors. I hope, by publicizing this man’s emails, readers can see the ugliness for themselves. This man is not an anomaly, the exception to the rule. He is not, in any way, “unique.” Sadly, men (and women) such as he can be found in countless IFB pulpits and pews all across America. The best thing anyone can do when coming in contact with the IFB church movement is to run!
This is my last post on this man. He has nothing constructive to offer me or the readers of this blog. Slander, lies, and nastiness seem to be his MO, and I, for one, don’t want to spend any more time on such people.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
I’ve been reading Bruce Gerencser’s website https://brucegerencser.net/. If you don’t know him, it is rather interesting read.
Yet, he has something in common with those he references. He has feel [sic] into the trap of abandoning God instead of men. Which really is one of the main “trials of faith” that every son of God goes through. Sooner or later, you’re going to have to choose God….. if you’re going to find peace with Him.
This happens often with intellectual people that rightfully spot problems that Christians just refuse to recognize. People like many of the people here in this forum. I learned a long time that what people SAY about God is much different than what God has said about Himself. I decided to know the difference. He, like many others, doesn’t really want to know the difference.
Situations like this fall into the category that Paul referenced in
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you
The empty twisted teachings that you find among the average “church member” just isn’t intellectually sound….. and the average person doesn’t have any idea how to change. They keep saying what they’ve been told and it just keeps failing.
Question, what would you say to a person like this?
I am rather disappointed that only one person “bit” and replied. Typically, the members of the Fundamental Forum — current and former Independent Fundamentalist Baptists (IFB) — love eviscerating those who leave the one “true” faith or are no longer considered Fundamentalist Christians.
That said, someone who used an admin email address associated with Fundamental Forums sent me the following email:
Some observations. We have things in common. Not that means much of anything. I see that you enjoying pointing out anecdotal statements expect for when you employ them yourself.
I’ve read some of your website, but I have seen very little that makes you unique and oh how we must be unique. We are both grey. You have me by a few years but who knows how that will end up….. We are both sarcastic. We have both lied and been lied to so many times we can’t honestly blame someone else or adequately defend ourselves as being worthy of followers. I see that you’ve tried that before but you really haven’t given up. You just draw a different crowd now. I imagine just as you once lied to your congregation to gather their approval, you know lie to your current “flock” to gather the same thrill you once had.
It is rather obvious that you enjoy an intellectual battle and you feel as if you’re better at it than anyone else. I’d like to chance to prove you wrong. Do you want to let our “egos” do the talking…… I find it amazing that any intellectual can build a website such as you’ve built, taking pleasure in your accomplishments, as feeble as they are……..at yet fail to recognize the majestic qualities surrounding your life.
If ANY intellectual would honestly compare your website to what God has written all around you…. You must admit that you just can’t compare. Yet, you recognize your own work at the expense of another. So weak and fleeting is your pleasure. Which is really life’s lesson you fail to recognize. Standing “fist clinched” in the face of overwhelming insignificance you possess. You must recognize you are powerless to produce anything lasting and effective by any measure of common sense. Just what good is love if it ends. Just what good is peace if it fails you? You take pleasure in the fleeting moments of your paltry website not considering its inevitable end.
I noticed that you failed to adequately express your hatred for the historical Jesus? Why? Fear? I know, how dare….. whomever….I’m sure you feel contempt rising to your lips or keyboard. I know what I know. If you’ve ever made a real emotional connection with Jesus Christ, it is more than fear. It goes the very root of what you became. So step back, and with unfeigned contempt throw your last ditch hatred at the imaginary…… Can you really do that? Does your intellect fail you?
The person who emailed me (using an admin account from Fundamental Forum) uses the word “intellectual” to describe me — more on that in a moment — as does the person who started the discussion thread on Fundamental Forums. This leads me to conclude that these people are likely one and the same, though they could be two different people.
My short response to this Christian would be to call him a judgmental prick. However, that would hardly make him “unique,” right?” Many IFB pastors, evangelists, and congregants are known for being arrogant, self-righteous, judgmental assholes, so this man is just another garden-variety Bible thumper. That said, I do want to respond to his email.
First, this man says I am not “unique.” I don’t believe I have ever said that I am. I am just one man with a story to tell. That my story resonates with thousands and thousands of people suggests that more than a few people find my writing “unique.” However, I would never say that about myself.
Second, this man incorrectly asserts that I lied to the congregations I pastored, and I continue to lie today to readers of this blog. He provides no evidence for this claim. I don’t believe I have ever deliberately lied to church members or the people who frequent this site. Have I ever lied? Sure. That said, lying is the exception to the rule for me. I always try to be open, honest, and forthright.
Over the past 17 years, I have had several Evangelical Christians accuse me of lying about my past or withholding the “true” story of the Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser. One man even went so far as to say that I had never pastored a church here in rural northwest Ohio; that he had talked to people who lived in this area and they had never heard of me. Not much I can do about such ignorance and stupidity. I pastored and worked for three churches in northwest Ohio: Montpelier Baptist Church in Montpelier, Olive Branch Christian Union Church in Fayette, and Our Father’s House in West Unity. Just the facts, ma’am, just the facts.
Third, my goal as an Evangelical pastor was to evangelize the lost, teach the saved, and minister to the needs of the congregations I pastored. To suggest that I did these things just for the “thrill” of it or just to attract a crowd is ludicrous. Methinks there is a lot of projection going on in this man’s email to me. I, of course, can’t know that, but I would never send him an email making ill-informed assertions. My mama taught me better manners than that.
Fourth, this man calls me an “intellectual.” I guess that, coming from a guy who is part of a movement where an intellectual is someone who owns more than five books and has a ninth-grade education, I should take this as a compliment.
Three IFB Preachers Seeing Who Has the Largest Church
This man challenges me to a dick-measuring contest of sorts, but I won’t oblige him. Back in the early days of this blog, I would engage in such “discussions,” but I quickly learned that such people are only interested in hearing themselves talk. Thus, to quote the Bible, I don’t cast my pearls before swine. He’s free to say what he will about me on Fundamental Forum, social media, or start up a blog of his own dedicated to taking down the man, myth, and legend, the Most Reverend Bruce Gerencser. If this man chooses the latter route, he will find that running a widely read, successful blog is hard work. Really hard work.
Fifth, this man states that if ANY (his emphasis) intellectual would honestly (IFB Greek for “agree with me”) compare my writing to what God has written, he or she would have to admit that there is no comparison. According to him, what God has written wins hands down every time. I will leave it to the “intellectuals” on this site to judge whether God is a better writer than I am. All I know to do is write in such a way that people will find my work insightful, informative, helpful, and, at times, funny. The Bible certainly can be all of those things, but I would hardly say that it is uniformly so. And I most certainly wouldn’t say that the Bible was written by God. I am, after all, an “intellectual.” I have read numerous books about the text of the Protestant Christian Bible. Claiming the Bible was written by anyone but fallible, frail humans is absurd — “inconsistent with reason, logic or common sense; incongruous or inviting mockery” (TheSage VII English Dictionary and Thesaurus). One need only read one, two or ten of Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books to learn that the Bible is of human origin.
Sixth, this man says that he noticed that I “failed to adequately express my hatred for the historical Jesus.” Hmm, let’s see. The historical Jesus is dead. He died almost 2,000 years ago and his bones are buried in an unknown grave. Why in the world would I “hate” an ancient dead man? “I hate you, Nero!” How dumb is that, right? Now, if you ask me if I hate, despise, and loathe Donald Trump? Guilty as charged. But, Jesus? He is but a character in an ancient, largely fictional, collection of books. My objection has always been directed at Evangelicalism itself, not the deity its adherents claim to worship. Anyone who has actually read Why I Hate Jesus knows this.
To suggest that I fear a dead man is — dare I say it again — absurd. I reject the central claims of Christianity. I have no reason to fear Jesus. What’s he going to do? Rise up from his grave and beat me up for saying bad things about him and his followers? Child, please. If I fear anyone, it’s armed, pickup-driving, white supremacist, Christian nationalists. But, Jesus? Nope.
I have no idea why this man wants me to, with “unfeigned contempt,” throw “hatred” at the dead Jesus. Is he trying to bait me into committing the unpardonable sin, thus justifying his judgmental email? Sorry, but I have already done that. Has he not read Hebrews 6:4-6?
For it is impossible for those [Bruce Gerencser] who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,If they [Bruce Gerencser] shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he [Bruce Gerencser] be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [Bruce Gerencser] hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them [Bruce Gerencser]; for God hath shewed it unto them [Bruce Gerencser].For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they [Bruce Gerencser] are without excuse:Because that, when they [Bruce Gerencser] knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Professing themselves [Bruce Gerencser] to be wise, they became fools,And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.Wherefore God also gave them [Bruce Gerencser] up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.For this cause God gave them [Bruce Gerencser] up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.And even as they [Bruce Gerencser] did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:Who [Bruce Gerencser] knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Man, this Bruce Gerencser dude is in a world of shit. That is, IF there is a God, IF that God is the Christian deity, IF the Bible is the Word of God. I am confident that not one of these claims is true. I am convinced that this life is the only one any of us has, and once we draw our last breath, that’s it.
Let me conclude this post with the advice I give readers on the About page:
You have one life. There is no heaven or hell. There is no afterlife. You have one life, it’s yours, and what you do with it is what matters most. Love and forgive those who matter to you and ignore those who add nothing to your life. Life is too short to spend time trying to make nice with those who will never make nice with you. Determine who are the people in your life that matter and give your time and devotion to them. Live each and every day to its fullest. You never know when death might come calling. Don’t waste time trying to be a jack of all trades, master of none. Find one or two things you like to do and do them well. Too many people spend way too much time doing things they will never be good at.
Here’s the conclusion of the matter. It’s your life and you best get to living it. Someday, sooner than you think, it will be over. Don’t let your dying days be ones of regret over what might have been.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Dr. David Tee, whose real name is Derrick Thomas Thiessen, has spent the past three years personally attacking not only me, but my British friend, Ben Berwick. Ben, an author, blogs at Meerkat Musings and Coalition of the Brave. Several years ago, Ben told me that he thought Thiessen was misguided, but friendship with him was possible. Having experienced firsthand the depths of Thiessen’s bullying and lies, I doubted whether this was true, but I considered that I could be wrong; that I had waded through so much of his bullshit that I couldn’t see whatever minute goodness the man might have.
Ben is a decent guy who genuinely tries to see good in others. I am much more cynical than Ben. Besides being old enough to be Ben’s father or even grandfather, I suspect this is due to seventeen years of experiences with the Derrick Thiessens of the world; people who claim to be Christians, yet show, in their behavior and words, that they are not followers of Jesus. Long-time readers of this blog remember Jesus-loving miscreants such as Revival Fires, John, Charles, Daniel Kluver, Victor Justice, Steve Ransom, and others dumping loads of shit on my doorstep, savaging not only me, but also my partner, Polly, our children, and grandchildren, Facebook friends of mine, and the readers of this site. For those of us who used to be Evangelicals, we find their behavior baffling, contrary to the teachings of Jesus. How can these men dare to claim faith in Christ, while at the same time not loving their neighbors as themselves? Thiessen, in direct contradiction to Jesus’ words in the Sermon on the Mount, takes an eye-for-an-eye approach toward those who disagree with him. Turn the other cheek? Love your enemy? Not according to Thiessen’s bastardized version of Christianity.
During the month of June 2024, Thiessen wrote over thirty posts about Ben and me. Both of us ignored him for months, but his hostility and defamation have reached levels where silence is no longer possible. My skin is thick and impenetrable when it comes to Thiessen’s abusive behavior, thanks to three years of non-stop “teachings” and “critiques” from him. Others who have faced fewer of Thiessen’s attacks might be more sensitive to his cuts, slights, and assaults.
Recently, Thiessen wrote a post titled We Have a STALKER!!! Here’s what he had to say about Ben:
He [Ben Berwick] follows us [me] everywhere now making his distorted and misleading comments. We [I] do not comment on his website nor do we [I] mention him in any of our [my] posts elsewhere on the Internet yet he somehow finds the time and the need to track our [my] movements and leave these hate-filled comments about us [me].
I am sure he has better things to do than to trace our [my] footsteps. it certainly makes him look bad and worse than how he describes us [me].
Thiessen doesn’t mention Ben or me by name in his writing, nor does he follow Internet etiquette and properly hyperlink to our blogs when he uses our content on his sparsely read site. Instead, he calls me BG and Ben MM. Just last week, Thiessen cooked up a new reason for why he does this: he wants to focus on our content instead of our personalities. This claim, of course, is absurd. He does this because he knows it irritates us; while his use of our content technically falls under Fair Use, his refusal to use our names and provide proper attribution is for no other reason than that he can. That’s what bullies do. “Make me stop,” Thiessen says, knowing that he is safe from accountability, both personally and legally. He hides in the Philippines with his newest wife, safe from being held accountable for his behavior.
I should note that Thiessen has a long history of bullying and badgering people he disagrees with — including fellow Christians. He has been banned from numerous blogs, websites, and forums, always claiming he is a victim. Thiessen is not a pastor. It’s been years since he found a group of people willing to call him their shepherd. He claims to be in the ministry, however, his “ministry” seems to be writing self-published short books, publishing Fundamentalist teaching materials, writing travel articles, and blogging. How he makes his living is unknown. In years past, he has mooched off of others, having little visible means of support.
Is Ben stalking Thiessen? Of course not. Just because Ben responds to comments Thiessen made on other blogs, websites, and forums doesn’t mean he is a stalker. These are public sites. Anyone is free to comment, and I have, at times, done the same. People need to know who Dr. David Tee really is. I notified several Christian ministries in the Philippines that the Dr. David Tee they admire is not who they think he is. Thiessen is a fraud who hides behind numerous aliases, presenting himself as a college-trained academic who earned a legitimate doctorate. Thiessen does have at least one degree from an Evangelical Bible college, but he refuses to say where he received his master’s and doctorate. When asked to provide credible evidence for his academic claims, Thiessen refuses, saying, “God knows, and that’s all that matters.” Ask yourself, do you know anyone who has an earned doctorate who doesn’t want to tell you where they got their education? Of course not. Most people are proud of their academic achievements. Thiessen, of course, knows his academic achievements would be mocked if he let it be known where he went to school.
Note that Thiessen provides NO evidence for his claim that Ben is leaving “hateful” comments about him on other sites. Why is that?
It is hard to know where exactly to begin. As we mentioned in a previous article, we now have a stalker. We know he is a stalker because he suddenly appears on different websites where we participate and makes insidious comments about us.
….
He [Ben] seems to be very thin-skinned and there is an old saying that he should consider- if you cannot stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen. He was in the kitchen the moment he publically [sic] published his content. If he does not like criticism, maybe he should stick to what he knows or stop putting content on the Internet.
….
There is something that he should consider applying to his life as well. This was taught to us about 60 years ago– toughen up. If he is that sensitive, then publishing his thoughts publically [sic] is not for him
What his email has done is made MM look very bad. It does not harm us as people have been saying bad things about us for over a decade. His email paints him in the following ways:
A bully – he has to beat up on others to feel good about himself
An extortionist- he has to threaten harm against others to get his way
A spoiled child- throws tantrums because he is not getting his way
A whiner- he can’t handle criticism
A crybaby- he has to have everyone doing what he wants or he is not happy
A complainer- he takes issue with critiques because they expose his erroneous thoughts
The kid who takes his ball and goes home- he refuses to let people do what he does and has to try and take the opportunities away
A distorter- he is dishonest and manipulative and changes the content to fit his narrative
Self-important- he thinks he is something he is not
Thinks his way is the only way – he thinks he gets to tell millions of others what they should be thinking, doing, and supporting. He forgets he is just one person with one subjective opinion
An abusive person- he will treat others in very negative ways
Hypocritical- he treats others in the same way he complains about
Vengeful- likes to get back at others for perceived slights
Likes to take revenge- he wants to get back at others instead of letting roll away like water off a duck’s back
Those are just some of the negative attributes his email describes him as being.
Both BG and MM should man up and toughen up and stop their whining. if they are going to publish erroneous content and make extraordinary claims then they will be called out for those statements.
As we have explained ad nauseum we use their content to present our material in a very relatable manner. And as we said in a previous post, we hold nothing against them no matter how bad they get.
There is a reason we do not allow comments on this website anymore. It is people like them, not just them, who do not know how to discuss or debate correctly and use verbiage that is not acceptable in common debates or discussions.
Many people who comment cannot follow the rules we have set up for commenting, including BG and MM who have created their own rules for comments.
We do not care what MM is going to publish. He has crossed the line again and taken steps that non-Christians may find worth physically fighting him over. We are not that way. We will just turn the other cheek and let it go.
We will publish the content we want because we have the right and freedom to do so. It is our website and what MM wants does not matter. He is the one in error with his actions and overreactions and he needs to get help.
We have forgotten a couple points we were going to include here and may remember them later. We wonder where he gets the right to dictate to others what they can & will say on their websites? He put the information into the public domain so he only has himself to blame.
….
Also, we do not trust his content because he is a known distorter who manipulates content to fit his purpose. He is dishonest and does not own up to his manipulative and distorting ways. He will say he is quoting exactly what was said to him, but that is not the problem. It is his commentary that creates the distortion and dishonestly represents what was said.
If he uses interpretation, then he is not attacking us but his own ideas. In that email, you will see many false accusations made against us. He should take his own words as good advice and follow them instead of threatening others he does not agree with.
We cannot change the past and it is useless to try as unbelievers always find a way to bring the past up and use it against a believer. We make mistakes and often say something we shouldn’t but we also have God reminding us of that and directs us to make changes.
MM and BG do not have that aid and often continue to be abusive, mean, insulting, and more negative terms. We thought of responding to the content of that email but it would not do any good, MM has created a fantasy in his mind that he will not let go. It is a waste of time responding to his words.
….
We did think of something after we posted this. If MM was decent, and had values, dignity, honor, integrity, and so on, he would not have written the email, the post nor resorted to extortion.
Fair-minded readers will readily see that Thiessen is gaslighting Ben. Thiessen takes behaviors that are attributable to him and uses them to attack others. Either Ben has pulled the wool over my eyes and is an awful human being, or Thiessen is gaslighting not only Ben, but the rest of us. I’m putting my money on the latter. I have seen nothing in Ben that suggests he is anything other than a decent bloke, someone I would enjoy having a beer with at the pub on Friday nights.
For readers who are unfamiliar with Dr. David Tee, I encourage you to read the following posts:
I have, at times, stopped responding to Thiessen. However, his words can be so egregious and offensive that saying nothing is, at least for me, impossible. I know nothing I write will stop Thiessen’s attacks. He will rage against this post, uttering more invectives, hoping to wound me. The good news is that his words no longer sting or cause harm. Thiessen has become an illustration of what happens when Christian Fundamentalism rots your mind, rendering you unable to be a decent human being. Sadly, Thiessen can’t even see how much harm he is causing Christianity; how his words turn people away from the Jesus he says he loves. I have called on him to repent, but he refuses to do so. Is there not someone, anyone in his sphere of influence, who can get him to see the damage he is causing to Christianity?
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Steve Proctor is the pastor of Westwood Baptist Church in Poplar Bluff, Missouri. Westwood Baptist is an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church affiliated with the Baptist Bible Fellowship in Springfield, Missouri. I was saved, baptized, and called to preach at a BBF congregation — Trinity Baptist Church in Findlay, Ohio — in the early 1970s.
Proctor came to this site via Google search. Proctor, as is common among his species, showed no interest in learning anything about me. (Please see the WHY? page.) He read all of two posts:
After spending ten minutes on this site, Proctor deemed himself sufficiently informed to comment on my psychological state and my age, along with throwing in a not-really-sorry for the “hurts” in my life that must have caused “this” — whatever “this” is — and a promise to pray for me.
Proctor’s comment — which he posted twice — patience pastor, patience — was succinct and to the point:
You are a very sad and bitter old man. I’m so sorry for the hurt in your life that must have caused this. I will pray for you.
Proctor uses the word “sad” not in the sense of depressed or discouraged, but to say that I am pathetic or a joke. He then says I am bitter. Knowing that he only read two posts on this site, I have no idea how this IFB Freud determined I was bitter. And for the record, I am not. I have debunked this claim numerous times, so I won’t do it again. I will say, however, that Proctor has zero evidence for his claim. First, he didn’t read enough of my writing to know anything about me. Second, he made no attempt to reasonably and politely interact with me. Instead, he just threw the word bitter out there, hoping to wound me. Sorry, Pastor Proctor, but I’m immune from such juvenile attempts to cause harm.
Proctor goes on to call me an old man. He got that one right, but how is my advanced age relevant? Besides, doesn’t the Bible say that Christians are supposed to treat the elderly with honor and respect? Evidently, God’s commands don’t apply when commenting on an atheist senior citizen’s blog.
Proctor goes on to allege that some sort of hurt in my life caused “this.” Proctor doesn’t say what “this” is, but I assume “this” is my atheism and my opposition to Evangelical Christianity. Had Proctor bothered to have curiosity (please see Curiosity, A Missing Evangelical Trait) about the man, the myth, the legend Bruce Gerencser, he likely would have found that I have addressed the “hurt” allegation numerous times. Sorry, Pastor Proctor, but some sort of “hurt” didn’t cause me to divorce Jesus and walk away from Christianity. I deconverted for intellectual reasons, not emotional ones. (Please see The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.) I am more than happy to engage you on THOSE issues, if you are so inclined. Warning, I know the Bible well, have spent most of my life reading and studying the Bible, and have preached more than 4,000 sermons.
Evidently, Proctor’s Bible is one of those new-fangled translations that leave words and verses out of the one true and perfect Bible — The King James Version. (That’s sarcasm, by the way. Proctor is King James-only.) The verse that seems to be missing from Proctor’s Bible is Proverbs 18:13:
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
I love how The Living Bible translates this verse:
What a shame—yes, how stupid!—to decide before knowing the facts!
God says that Pastor Proctor is shameful and stupid for judging me before knowing the facts. I agree with God.
At Westwood, we want you to feel at home and be part of our family. Westwood is a church with a heart where loving and caring friends will help you and your family grow in God’s grace.
On a page titled, A Word From the Pastor, Proctor says:
Here at Westwood, we are known as “A Church with a Heart.” God has truly given our church a heart for people. Our desire is to provide effective ministry to every person of every age from all walks of life. From the moment you visit for the first time, we hope that you sense the love that fills our hearts. More importantly, we hope that we are able to show you our Lord’s heart.
Sounds like a church pastored by a loving and caring man, a church with people who are filled with love. How do we square these advertising clichés with Pastor Proctor’s comment on this site? Where’s the love, pastor, where’s the love?
Proctor says he will pray for me. If he is the typical IFB preacher, he won’t do so. You see, “I will pray for you” is meant to convey judgment, that Proctor deems my life insufficient or damaged in some way. It is often an epithet preachers hurl at people they disagree with. They have no intention of seriously storming the throne room of Heaven on your behalf. That would be too much work. There are too many other unbelievers to vanquish and condemn to bother praying for them. That said, thousands of Evangelical Christians have said they are praying for me. Despite thousands and thousands of prayers asking God to save me, kill me, or chastise me, I remain an unrepentant atheist. Why, it is almost as if prayer doesn’t work.
I hope Pastor Proctor will remember this post the next time he leaves a stupid — to quote God’s Word — comment on someone’s blog. I hope he will stop being a Fundamentalist preacher, choosing instead to be kind, decent, thoughtful human being who sincerely tries to get to know people different from him — be they atheists, agnostics, humanists, socialists, liberals, or others.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
Over the weekend, a Christian man named Steve Williams sent me the following message on Facebook Messenger. All spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the original. My response follows.
I’ve been concerned about professing believers falling away from the faith since a teenager over fifty years ago. About a year ago I came across something of your story in Texas, I think you were involved with a church plant in San Antonio. It seems that I recall you transitioned from being an independent, fundamental Baptist to become a Reformed Baptist but there were problems with a dictator type pastor who greatly opposed you. I may be wrong on some of the details.
That’s way too bad. If sad stories like that made you feel justified to leave the faith, my guess is that there were doubts in your mind apart from that tragedy. I would plead with you to seek the mercy and grace of God, that He would do a saving work in your mind and heart and life. He is a merciful Saviour, however His judgment is severe for the apostate. Do turn to Him today.
Pat Horner, a former Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) preacher started Community Baptist Church in 1983. Horner, as was I at the time, was a hardcore Fundamentalist Baptist and Calvinist. By the time I arrived in Elmendorf in 1994, the church was running several hundred people in attendance. Horner and I were hardheaded, opinionated, inflexible preachers. That said, personality-wise, we couldn’t have been more different. Both of us had what I call an entrepreneurial spirit. What Community had after I showed up on the scene was two chiefs; two managers; two owners; two honchos. For readers who have owned businesses or managed concerns for others, you know this was a recipe for disaster; a colossal clusterfuck-in-the-making. Both Horner and I were authoritarian, we expressed our authority differently. Horner was a stickler on doctrine. The slightest misspoken word would bring rebuke and correction. I had more grace in my theology than Horner did. That said, when it came to how we “lived” the Christian life, my standards were more extreme than his. These differences in focus led to conflict. There were personal squabbles too, as I recount in the series mentioned above. And after seven months of conflict, I had had enough (and I am sure Horner felt similarly). So, what we really were was a couple who ran headlong into marriage, only to find out that they were incompatible. Divorce was inevitable.
While I am sure my negative experiences at Community played a small part in my deconversion, what has troubled me more is my treatment by this church post-deconversion. I have added their words, sermons, and whispers to those of former friends and colleagues in the ministry. Their hateful, judgmental words were heard loud and clear; evidence of the moral bankruptcy of Evangelical Christianity. Again, these things played a part in my deconversion, but they were not the deciding factors. I left Christianity because I no longer believed the central claims of Christianity were true. (Please read The Michael Mock Rule: It Just Doesn’t Make Sense.)
I was an Evangelical Christian for fifty years, and a Bible college-trained pastor for twenty-five years. I have written numerous posts about my story; about my life as a follower of Jesus, and my later deconversion from Christianity. Any fair reading of my story shows that I was a Christian; that I not only understood the gospel, but also preached it to others. There’s nothing in my story that remotely suggests that I never was a Christian, or that “God” had never performed a “saving work in my mind and heart and life.” Since God cannot speak for himself, it is up to my critics to provide evidence for their claim that I was a false Christian. I wasn’t perfect, but the bent of my life was towards holiness. Over the years I pastored scores of people and counted numerous men as colleagues in the ministry. Not one of them has ever said, “Bruce Gerencser was never a Christian.”
The bottom line is this: I once was saved, and now I am not. I know what I know, and no amount of rock-throwing from the outside will change this fact. That Williams and other Christians can’t square my story with their theology is their problem, not mine.
Williams ended his message as Evangelicals are fond of doing with a threat: “His [Williams’ God’s] judgment is severe for the apostate. ” In other words, “Bruce, you are going to burn in Hell unless you repent!” Over the past seventeen years, I have been threatened with eternal torture and Hell countless times — hundreds and hundreds of times. Look, I’m an atheist. I have not been presented with sufficient evidence for the existence of God — particularly the Christian deity. Jesus is dead, God is a myth, as are Heaven and Hell. Knowing this about me, why do Christians continue to threaten me with eternal, everlasting, neverending torture at the hands of their God? I suspect that these threatenings aren’t about me at all; that the need to be right fuels thundering pronouncements and imprecatory prayers against people different from them.
I am not low-hanging fruit, so it is beyond me why Evangelicals ignorantly think they can win me back to Jesus or, according to their theology, win me to Jesus for the first time. Regardless, I know all I need to know about God, Jesus, Christianity, and salvation. I am an atheist today, not because of a traumatic religious experience thirty years ago. but because I have weighed Christianity in the balance and found it wanting. It is really that simple. (Please read Why?)
Saved by Reason,
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
What is it about Evangelicals who think that I am being less than honest about my past and present life? Rarely does a week go by without someone questioning my truthfulness or doubting my explanations as to why I left Christianity.
Today, I received an email from Pastor Mark (I know his last name, but I won’t mention it here). Here’s what Pastor Mark had to say:
I have read your stories. I’m not surprised by the way you feel. However, how could you be a minister for over 25 years unless you believed in Jesus Christ? Maybe you never had a true relationship with Him. Maybe you allowed other people, things to come between you and Him. I cannot answer those questions, but you can and you can answer them honestly.
It make me wonder if your family (wife, children, grandchildren, etc) feel the same way you feel about Jesus. One thing I know, Jesus didn’t leave you, you left Jesus.
Pastor Mark wonders how it is possible that I pastored for twenty-five years, but didn’t believe in Jesus. Here’s the thing, I did believe in Jesus. I was a devoted, committed follower of Jesus Christ. My beliefs, practices, and lifestyle testified that I was a child of God. No one, at the time, questioned my relationship with Jesus. It was only after I divorced Jesus that people doubted whether I was a True Christian®.
Pastor Mark wonders if I had a “true” relationship with Jesus. I did. He also wonders if people or things came between me and Jesus. Sorry to burst your bubble, Pastor Mark, but they did not. I left Christianity primarily for intellectual reasons. Pastor Mark would have learned this had he checked out the WHY? page, but alas, much like most Evangelicals, the good pastor showed little, if any, curiosity about my story.
Pastor Mark asks me to answer his questions “honestly.” Have I been anything other than honest? Seventeen years, over 4,000 posts on this iteration of my blog, and people are still questioning my honesty. What more do I need to do? Post nude pics with every article, showing my nakedness before God and my fellow man?
Pastor Mark wonders about my wife, children, and grandchildren. Their stories are theirs to tell, but I can say that none of them is an Evangelical. I can also say they are atheists, humanists, agnostics, nominal Catholics, and generally indifferent towards organized religion. This is, to me anyway, good news. This means the Evangelical curse has been broken.
Pastor Mark is certain that Jesus didn’t leave me, but I left Jesus. First, Jesus is dead, so he couldn’t go anywhere. Second, I didn’t leave Jesus, I left Christianity. It’s Christianity that I reject. Again, check out the WHY? page.
There ya have it, Pastor Mark. All your Bruce Gerencser questions answered. I do, however, have a few questions about you. Are you the . . . Naw, I will leave it there.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
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Recently, I received the following email from a man named Henry:
Bruce, why do you spend so much time worrying about Evilgelicals? They’re living rent free in your head. Don’t waste your time with these losers. Move on. You know it’s all bullshit.
I will assume in my response that Henry is either an atheist or a non-Evangelical Christian. Many first-time or casual readers are unaware of my motivations for writing and why I write the way I do.
First, I am a former Evangelical Christian. I spent fifty years in Evangelicalism, and twenty-five years as a pastor. Evangelicalism is what I know, especially the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement and the Sovereign Grace/Reformed Baptist movements. I am a go-to source for background and comment on these movements. Reporters, news agencies, and authors will contact me from time to time, asking for comments or background information. One reporter who was working on a story about an IFB pastor and his church repeatedly contacted me to get help defining and understanding “IFB lingo” he found unfamiliar or confusing. I am always glad to help. Over the years, I have appeared on numerous podcasts and news interviews, gladly lending my expertise to their programs. Shouldn’t I want to lend my voice to authors, podcasters, and reporters who are doing yeoman’s work in exposing the ugly, dangerous, harmful underbelly of Evangelical Christianity?
Second, I fundamentally believe that Evangelicalism in general and the IFB church movement in particular causes psychological and, at times, physical harm. Evangelicalism is inherently Fundamentalist, and I oppose fundamentalism in all its forms. Fundamentalism is found in every religion and every school of thought. Thus, there are fundamentalist atheists, fundamentalist medical professionals, fundamentalist economists, etc. Fundamentalism is a terminal disease that must be eradicated from our thinking and way of life.
Having experienced firsthand the harm such toxic, dangerous religious sects cause, I am motivated to make sure others are not similarly harmed. As a former insider, a lifelong on-fire, dedicated follower of Jesus, I have a unique perspective to offer readers. My goal is not to convert people to atheism, but to provide readers with information that will help them with their doubts and questions about Christianity. That scores of people have left Evangelicalism due to something I wrote or some other interaction I had with them is a byproduct, not a feature, of my work. Sure, as an atheist and a humanist, I think my worldview and way of life are superior to Christianity. That said, I realize that most people are and will remain religious to some degree or the other. I have done my job if I can help people move away from Evangelicalism to kinder, gentler forms of Christianity. The fact of their deconverting is a bonus.
Third, I don’t only write about Evangelicalism. Sure, that’s my focus, and it always has been. That said, I also write about sports, politics, medicine, and anything else that tickles my fancy. The Black Collar Crime Series has played a part in keeping the spotlight focused on sex crimes committed by Evangelical pastors, evangelists, missionaries, deacons, worship leaders, Sunday school teachers, nursery workers, youth pastors, church bus drivers, summer camp employees, group homes, private school teachers, and college professors. These stories generally fade from public view, but the Black Collar Crime Series keeps the light shining on the despicable acts of so-called men of God and other church leaders.
Fourth, I enjoy writing about religion in general, and Evangelicalism and the IFB church movement in particular. I know what I know, so why not use my knowledge and understanding to help others? I also have a story to tell, so what better place to share it than this blog? While I spend significant time critiquing Evangelicalism, I have never lost sight of my desire to share my story with others. Hopefully, my story will one day be turned into a book. I spent five decades in the Evangelical church, over half that time closely aligned with the IFB church movement. According to many readers, my story is not only entertaining, it is helpful — the voice of an insider, someone who understands the inner workings of Fundamentalist sects and churches.
Henry and I have different views of Evangelicalism. He calls them “Evilgelicals,” a common term used by atheists. For the most part, I do not think Evangelicals are evil. Evil exists among every demographic, but it is unkind, uncharitable, and uninformed to call all Evangelicals evil. Most Evangelicals were raised in the church. It is all they have ever known. This is especially true of the IFB church movement and other sects on the extreme right of the Evangelical tent. Outsiders don’t understand how deeply indoctrination and conditioning affect people; and that it is difficult to break free from cult-like beliefs and practices. I am compassionate and sympathetic towards Christian Fundamentalists, knowing how difficult it is to break free from authoritarian, patriarchal literalism. Screaming at such people, calling them names, or mocking them accomplishes nothing. What better way to reach them than by sharing my “testimony” or politely (but pointedly) challenging their sincerely held beliefs? This may not be everyone’s proverbial cup of tea, but it is mine.
Fifth, I don’t “worry” about Evangelicals. I am indifferent towards religion, in general. Each to their own. I do, however, worry about how certain Evangelical beliefs and practices affect my life and that of my family — especially my grandchildren. Evangelicals are largely Republicans or Libertarians, and almost eighty percent of voting white Evangelicals voted for Donald Trump in the 2016 and 2020 presidential elections. Evangelicalism has moved from being a pietistic sect to a political party. THIS worries me. My partner, Polly, and I attended two graduations this week, one for our two preschool grandsons and the other for soon-to-head-to Ohio State University granddaughter number three. While I generally found the graduations boring, I did spend time pondering about what the future might hold for my grandchildren. What awaits on the horizon for them? I worry about how continued Evangelical encroachment into American politics will affect their livelihoods and way of living. None of our sixteen grandchildren is an Evangelical Christian. I worry about them navigating a world where millions of Americans want to force them to conform to certain religious beliefs and practices. I want them to be free to be who and what they are without being condemned for being different. Currently, Lifewise Academy — an Evangelical parachurch organization — has established release time indoctrination programs in 170 Ohio public schools — including four school districts my grandchildren attend. Most of my grandchildren do not attend Lifewise’s classes, but they are often pressured to do so, feeling “bothered” when most of their classmates leave for their Lifewise class while they sit in study hall. I have been working with others to run Lifewise out of schools. Why? Lifewise indoctrinates impressionable children, teaching them all sorts of nonsense, including young earth creationism. Worse, children are directly targeted for evangelization. Internal documents reveal that teachers are to tell students divorce is a sin and that when confronted with a choice between obeying their parents and God (as defined by Lifewise), students should ALWAYS choose to obey God. (“Obeying God” actually means obeying certain Bible verses as interpreted by Lifewise teachers.) Lifewise also promotes Evangelical culture war values, including anti-abortion, anti-sex before marriage, anti-LGBTQ beliefs. What kind of grandfather would I be if I turned a blind eye to these things? I cannot and will not do so.
Sixth, Henry wrongly thinks I spend an inordinate amount of time on Evangelicals. According to him, they live rent-free in my head. This, of course, is laughable. As Carolyn, my editor, will tell you, I typically write posts for this site three or four days a week — rarely on Fridays or weekends. I have pervasive, painful health problems that limit what I can do on any given day. I suffer from fibromyalgia, osteoarthritis, gastroparesis, and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency. I also have degenerative spine disease. From my neck to my tailbone, I have numerous herniated discs and other structural damage. Despite taking narcotic pain medications and cannabis, I am still left with excruciating pain that never, ever goes away. Over the past two months, the pain in my lower back has gotten so bad that I am unable to walk more than short distances. I am forced to either walk with a cane, use a walker, or a wheelchair. (I fear I will soon be wheelchair-bound full-time. I have an MRI scheduled next week on my lower back. I suspect that the scan will show widespread disc damage. If you want to know how bad things are for me, shoot Polly a message and she will tell you.) These physical realities mean that I typically have three to six hours most days to write and take care of household business. After that, I am done. And I mean d-o-n-e. The rest of my night is spent reading, watching TV, listening to podcasts, or fitfully resting. If I could do more I would, but I have resigned myself to the fact that this is my new normal in life. All the positive thoughts in the world won’t change reality for me. It is what it is.
If my time is focused on anything, it is making it through the day. Writing is a distraction, a pain reducer. When I am focused on writing, my pain lessens. Carolyn can tell you about times when I got in a groove and wrote for hours, forgetting to take my pain meds. I felt okay while writing, but boy, oh boy, when I was done, Mr. Pain said to me, “Hey Buddy, remember me?” Of course, the cure was for me to immediately take my medication in copious amounts, but this is also a reminder that writing does help me physically.
Seventh, I have no intention of “moving on.” I enjoy writing. I enjoy interacting with my friends and acquaintances I have met through this blog. Some of you have been reading my writing for seventeen years. Amazing! And I am grateful for your continued support. I genuinely love and enjoy what I do, so why would I want to move on? My therapist believes that my regular writing schedule helps me emotionally and physically; and that I derive meaning and purpose through my writing and interaction with readers. I have been writing since my twenties. I see no reason to stop now. Subject matter may (and will) change with time, but I find the process enjoyable and fulfilling.
Eighth, I don’t think Evangelicals are “losers.” I was one of them. I understand how and why they believe what they do. I understand how indoctrination and conditioning affect their ability to see the world as it is. Should I just call Evangelicals names and label all of them “losers?” What is accomplished by doing so? I am surrounded locally by Evangelical Christians. What kind of life would I have if I considered my neighbors and local business owners “losers?” I can differ with their beliefs while still treating them with respect. I can do this because I am a decent, thoughtful, kind human being. I want to be treated in the same way I treat others. I make a distinction between garden variety Evangelicals I come in contact with and the apologists and zealots who frequent my blog. Many atheists wrongly assume that people such as Revival Fires, John, Charles, Dr. David Tee, and others are normative; that they represent Evangelicals as a whole. They don’t. While my Evangelical neighbors have beliefs I strongly object to, I don’t oppose them as people. It’s just not in me to do so. When I go to a high school basketball or football game, I want to enjoy the games. That includes interacting with the people sitting near me — many of whom are practicing Christians. I am well-known locally. Most people know I am an atheist and a socialist. They oppose my beliefs, as I do theirs. Some locals read my blog, and thousands of them read my letters to the editor of the newspaper. Yet, we are still able to enjoy one another’s company and have friendly discussions. One way for me to do that is to NOT have discussions with people about religion and politics unless asked. My life is so much more than atheism, humanism, and socialism, so there’s plenty to talk about without getting into heated debates and arguments.
Finally, Henry tells me, “You know it is all bullshit.” I presume he is talking about Evangelicalism or religion in general. The fact that I think all religions are social constructs created by humans to explain the world and provide social connection and cohesion, doesn’t change the fact that what Henry calls “bullshit” materially affects not only me, but my family, friends, and neighbors. Moving on means surrendering the battlefield, and I am unwilling to do so. I still believe a better tomorrow is possible, and for that to happen, bad ideas, beliefs, and worldviews must be challenged. This blog is my feeble attempt to make the world a better place to live.
Bruce Gerencser, 68, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 47 years. He and his wife have six grown children and sixteen grandchildren. Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist.
Your comments are welcome and appreciated. All first-time comments are moderated. Please read the commenting rules before commenting.
